Hybrid mana

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FunkyDragon
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Post by FunkyDragon » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
I am not arguing its not both. I am arguing that it was intended that they are playable in either. That was the design for the cards. They were not supposed to need to be played in a deck that had both colors and could produce them. They were intended to be played in either color. The popularity of commander came long after these cards were first designed and printed. Wizards never intended you to need to be playing both colors to play them.

I guess there are those who don't like that off color fetches can be played.
Yes, it was designed to be flexible and played with either type of mana. But most Magic cards were also designed to be played in a 60-card deck and without a legendary creature available to you at all times. I mean, pick any legend designed before Commander came along - Wizards didn't intend for those to be in the command zone, right? So, would you argue that they shouldn't be played as commanders?

Commander chooses to enforce additional deckbuilding rules, and that includes color identity; I don't know of any other format (beyond Commander and its off-shoots) that cares about color identity. In a 60-card deck, whether Standard, Modern, or kitchen table, there's nothing to stop you from running a single off-color card in your deck; maybe you have the means to cast it, maybe you don't. I've seen reanimator decks that run off-color creatures that they plan to discard and reanimate but couldn't possibly because they can't generate that color. Nothing in the rules states that you can't do that. Commander, though, cares about color identity, and you can't have a card that has mana symbols not found on your commander. Hybrid is both, so unless your commander is also both, you can't run it. This has nothing to do with how the cards were designed. It has to do with the format being played. No, you can't run Avacyn in your Chainer deck, and no, you can't play Kitchen Finks in your Yisan deck.

What about that is a problem?

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

FunkyDragon wrote:
4 years ago
No, you can't run Avacyn in your Chainer deck, and no, you can't play Kitchen Finks in your Yisan deck.

What about that is a problem?
It depends on how you look at it. With the old "can only produce mana of your commander's color identity" rule (which is where I spent most of my time playing) it always made sense to me that it should be allowed. The cards can be cast with the mana you're allowed to make, so why not?

Whether it's a problem really depends on how much flexibility you want in color identity.

It's a blatant strawman to compare Avacyn in a Chainer deck to Kitchen Finks in a Yisan deck -- these things are not the same.

Some people want *a little more* flexibility and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. It's a matter of taste. The people who want to abolish color identity entirely want a different thing than hybrid mana advocates.

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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Some people want *a little more* flexibility and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. It's a matter of taste.
I can appreciate wanting a little more flexibility, but at the same time, that's a terrible argument for changing the rules.

The argument that hybrid cards are conceptually and philosophically "OR" with regards to colors as opposed to "AND" is a much better argument.

Now, I still don't think it's a good enough argument, because the rules of the game don't support that level of ideological purity. But at least there is something there that's supportable. I just don't see it being a powerful argument without a major rules reworking of hybrid cards and the way that they function, which is obviously not something that would be worth doing for the sole purpose of Commander's deckbuilding restrictions.

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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Some people want *a little more* flexibility and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. It's a matter of taste. The people who want to abolish color identity entirely want a different thing than hybrid mana advocates.
They want a more extreme level of the same thing. Phyrexian is also 'a little more flexibility'. Off-color fetches is a an allowed flexibility. So sure its a 'season to taste' but to me allowing Finks is the same as Aura Shards because I can generate any color mana now. Game play rules, not deck building, treat these cards as the same color(s). If I see white mana symbols coming out of a Yisan for 3, that's wrong to me

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Post by FunkyDragon » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
FunkyDragon wrote:
4 years ago
No, you can't run Avacyn in your Chainer deck, and no, you can't play Kitchen Finks in your Yisan deck.
It's a blatant strawman to compare Avacyn in a Chainer deck to Kitchen Finks in a Yisan deck -- these things are not the same.
Not a strawman at all, if you had read what I was responding to:
I am arguing that it was intended that they are playable in either. That was the design for the cards. They were not supposed to need to be played in a deck that had both colors and could produce them
That quote applies 100% to running Avacyn in your Chainer deck, just as much as it does to Kitchen Finks in Yisan. ISBPathfinder was arguing the cards' design intent to justify fitting a card into a deck. Using that same logic, Chainer was designed to reanimate any creature, and Avacyn was designed to be capable of being reanimated (no clause to keep it out of the graveyard like Worldspine Wurm, Blightsteel Colossus, and certain Eldrazi). The cards were designed to make that possible and don't need to be in a deck that can produce both colors, same as hybrid was designed to be flexible in what colors you cast it with.

My argument is that design intent has nothing to do with the format-specific color identity rules, which are 100% flavor-driven. Just as you can't put an off-color card in one deck, you can't put an off-color card in another.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

FunkyDragon wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
FunkyDragon wrote:
4 years ago
No, you can't run Avacyn in your Chainer deck, and no, you can't play Kitchen Finks in your Yisan deck.
It's a blatant strawman to compare Avacyn in a Chainer deck to Kitchen Finks in a Yisan deck -- these things are not the same.
Not a strawman at all, if you had read what I was responding to:
I am arguing that it was intended that they are playable in either. That was the design for the cards. They were not supposed to need to be played in a deck that had both colors and could produce them
That quote applies 100% to running Avacyn in your Chainer deck, just as much as it does to Kitchen Finks in Yisan. ISBPathfinder was arguing the cards' design intent to justify fitting a card into a deck. Using that same logic, Chainer was designed to reanimate any creature, and Avacyn was designed to be capable of being reanimated (no clause to keep it out of the graveyard like Worldspine Wurm, Blightsteel Colossus, and certain Eldrazi). The cards were designed to make that possible and don't need to be in a deck that can produce both colors, same as hybrid was designed to be flexible in what colors you cast it with.

My argument is that design intent has nothing to do with the format-specific color identity rules, which are 100% flavor-driven. Just as you can't put an off-color card in one deck, you can't put an off-color card in another.
I agree that commander rules have nothing to do with design intent. But that said, I don't care, I want hybrid mana. I am not going to pretend that there is a right answer to this. This entire question is one of opinion. My opinion is that we should be able to include hybrid mana in commander. There is no right or wrong answer here, that is just my own opinion.

There is no right answer on hybrid mana. Any way that it goes there will be those that disagree and it will be their own opinion.
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Post by Snes » 4 years ago

MRHblue wrote:
4 years ago
This just makes EDH less flavorful for a few playable cards.
Beseech the Queen is always going to be the card that breaks this idea. This cannot be played in Mono-Green in EDH, nor should it be. 'Basic Magic Rules' would allow this, and its against the spirit you speak of.
If Beseech is a problem, ban it. Why keep dozens of cards out of players hands because of one bad break?
FunkyDragon wrote:
4 years ago
My argument is that design intent has nothing to do with the format-specific color identity rules, which are 100% flavor-driven. Just as you can't put an off-color card in one deck, you can't put an off-color card in another.
If the color identity rules are entirely flavor-driven as you claim, then why is Rise from the Tides playable in Talrand, Sky Summoner? Why is Batterskull playable in Nahiri, the Lithomancer? Why is Generous Gift playable in Kykar, Wind's Fury? All of these cards produce off-color tokens. Shouldn't they be limited to only the decks that include the colors of the tokens they produce?

And don't forget all the cards that change their colors, or change the color of other cards. Wild Mongrel can only change from green to green, Rise from the Grave is only allowed to target creature cards that were already black, and I guess Painter's Servant is back on the banned list for ruining the flavor of everyone's decks.

And what about Blind Obedience? It has a hybrid mana symbol on it! It's in the flavor text, but, as you said, flavor is the entire basis for the color identity rule. Shouldn't extort be ruled to give a card the color identity of white and black?

Saying that the rules are the way they are because it's what's "flavorful" is an empty argument because there is no one definition of what is and isn't flavorful. I say that allowing decks to run cards with hybrid mana costs that can be paid by mana in the commander's color identity is entirely flavorful. You disagree. Seeing as your definition of flavorful is no more or less valid than mine, that can't be the deciding factor.
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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

Snes wrote:
4 years ago
If Beseech is a problem, ban it. Why keep dozens of cards out of players hands because of one bad break?
Because it meets no ban criteria. Its not that one card is an issue, and the rest are fine. This is just the best example. Look at what I posted about Finks vs Aura Shards, its the same issue.
Saying that the rules are the way they are because it's what's "flavorful" is an empty argument because there is no one definition of what is and isn't flavorful. I say that allowing decks to run cards with hybrid mana costs that can be paid by mana in the commander's color identity is entirely flavorful. You disagree. Seeing as your definition of flavorful is no more or less valid than mine, that can't be the deciding factor.
No, but the RCs definition of what is or is not correct will be what makes the rules the rules. Your idea is as valid as mine as they are both opinion without CAG or RC influence. We also don't decide whats banned or how mana is generated or anything else.

All we can do is make our opinion known, and back it up with examples, and hope the RC continues to make this a great format.

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Post by Vessiliana » 4 years ago

I absolutely want to keep the hybrid mana rules the way that they are. I know that running Privileged Position in my Avacyn deck would be a thing. Any deck ever would want Beseech the Queen.

I play EDH for the overall flavor of the format. I'm not intending to play singleton Legacy/Vintage with a 100-card deck.

So I greatly appreciate the rules as they stand.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

No one would want beseech the queen. 6 mana tutor is garbage. No one plays diabolic tutor except budgets.

Also: claiming that hybrid mana allowing a handful of new cards into some decks of which 90% are garbage is tantamount to becoming 100 card singleton vintage is somewhat of an unfair exaggeration.

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Post by FunkyDragon » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
No one would want beseech the queen. 6 mana tutor is garbage. No one plays diabolic tutor except budgets.
You mean "no one plays Diabolic Tutor except low-budget decks because if they're in black, they already have access to a half dozen far superior tutors." But you're forgetting all of the nonblack decks that would love to tutor for any card. Mono-green ramp could pay the 6 without blinking.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

FunkyDragon wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
No one would want beseech the queen. 6 mana tutor is garbage. No one plays diabolic tutor except budgets.
You mean "no one plays Diabolic Tutor except low-budget decks because if they're in black, they already have access to a half dozen far superior tutors." But you're forgetting all of the nonblack decks that would love to tutor for any card. Mono-green ramp could pay the 6 without blinking.
There is no way that beseech would become popular in green ramp decks. Other colors have cards like enlightened tutor, gamble, windfall and green sun's zenith and finale of devastation and rishkar's expertise at their disposal.

Do you seriously contend that anyone is going to play beseech the queen outside of the jankiest of the jank?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Vessiliana wrote:
4 years ago
I absolutely want to keep the hybrid mana rules the way that they are. I know that running Privileged Position in my Avacyn deck would be a thing. Any deck ever would want Beseech the Queen.

I play EDH for the overall flavor of the format. I'm not intending to play singleton Legacy/Vintage with a 100-card deck.

So I greatly appreciate the rules as they stand.
For the record, Beseech the Queen is an ok / fair card when cast for BBB and begins to become bad at 2BB. I do think there would probably be some decks out there that run heavy ramp that would play it as a colorless 6 mana tutor but I think its far from what I would call a problem or a good card at that rate. Decks running heavy green ramp or leaning heavy on artifact ramp could probably pull it off at 6 mana but I don't think it would be the wide spread use.

The difference in a 6 colorless Beseech and Ring of Three Wishes is actually not that far off. Similar style of decks would probably consider both and while there is more cost behind playing and using the ring immediately it also has some re usability aspects behind it. Its obviously not the same talking about 6 mana and 10, but I also don't think its that far off from being similar given you could stagger casting and using the ring. Both effects would probably lend themselves to a deck with heavier amounts of ramp that care about assembling something or getting their hands on a specific card.

For the record, I don't actually think I would pay 6 for Beseech the Queen in many situations / decks. I don't think I can name a deck of mine right now that would be willing to do that.
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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

It's not a matter of a hyperbolic statement like "no one would play X". What matters is crafting a rule which does not create loopholes or an opening for even more arguments. Changing the existing rule to include hybrid mana means you have to address Beseech the Queen, and by extension anything that is off-color. This is why using design intent as a basis for arguing the rule change is a very flimsy stance to make. Because it's really easy to say "you can use run hybrid cards if you can cast either half of them", but at the end of they day you're still running a red card in your mono blue deck and you've made an arbitrary decision to run that particular red card but not a different red card that you can just as easily cast off a City of Brass.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
It's not a matter of a hyperbolic statement like "no one would play X". What matters is crafting a rule which does not create loopholes or an opening for even more arguments. Changing the existing rule to include hybrid mana means you have to address Beseech the Queen, and by extension anything that is off-color. This is why using design intent as a basis for arguing the rule change is a very flimsy stance to make. Because it's really easy to say "you can use run hybrid cards if you can cast either half of them", but at the end of they day you're still running a red card in your mono blue deck and you've made an arbitrary decision to run that particular red card but not a different red card that you can just as easily cast off a City of Brass.
You could reinstate the mana production of commanders colors and axe the color identity rule. I am not sure what all else that would change offhand but its a starting point. The mana production rules and color identity rules were heavily overlapping rules in the first place which is part of why they felt they could remove one of them as they both covered very similar restrictions.

EDIT: I guess it would allow some things like Rhys the Exiled in a mono green deck I guess. I am not sure how much of a concern that would be though.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

If this were to be fixed I think it'd be best done from the wizards' side of the rules. They could separate Two-brid from Hybrid and make two-brid symbols always the color of the symbol, and hybrids either (but both for determining the color of the card).

It's very clunky from a rules perspective.

I think from a gameplay perspective it would be rather fun though. 1 and 2 color decks especially would benefit with a few cool options but not completely lose flavor from having a couple niche options.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Rule 4 was much more confusing of a rule than hybrid mana, created legitimate feel-bad moments like with Celestial Dawn. Removing it has made gameplay much more intuitive because while it hasn't affected deck building, it now let's you actually cast cards you steal and use the activated abilities. It would be a real shame to reinstate rule 4 just in order to make hybrid cards work.

I'm genuinely curious, because there seems to be a lot of arguments that it would NOT homogenize decks, so to everyone who wants to run off-color hybrid cards, what would you SPECIFICALLY start playing that you can't already get the effect in color?



Edit: "It's very clunky from a rules perspective." - There you go, right there. All the justification you need to leave the rules as they are currently.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Rule 4 was much more confusing of a rule than hybrid mana, created legitimate feel-bad moments like with Celestial Dawn. Removing it has made gameplay much more intuitive because while it hasn't affected deck building, it now let's you actually cast cards you steal and use the activated abilities. It would be a real shame to reinstate rule 4 just in order to make hybrid cards work.

I'm genuinely curious, because there seems to be a lot of arguments that it would NOT homogenize decks, so to everyone who wants to run off-color hybrid cards, what would you SPECIFICALLY start playing that you can't already get the effect in color?



Edit: "It's very clunky from a rules perspective." - There you go, right there. All the justification you need to leave the rules as they are currently.
Sundering Growth - I have wanted to run it in a few decks. Its mostly Naturalize with a little more color demand but that populate uptick can be nice in token decks. I think its reasonable in mono white and mono green and occasionally useful in other multicolored decks.

Alesha, Who Smiles at Death - I have on occasion wanted to run her in other decks that aren't mardu. I think I was playing an Iroas, God of Victory deck when it came up as something I would have liked.

Brutal Hordechief - I can't name offhand where it was but I recall there was a deck I could have run it and thought it would have been something I would have tried out.

These are just the ones that come to mind. I do agree that its probably not the easiest thing to make a rule for but to be honest, There are a lot of confusing rules about commander for new players and I think the intent of something like "Hybrid mana cards can be used in either color identity." Sure its another rule but its not like we don't have a number of more confusing rules (Like everything about commanders and commander damage.)
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Rule 4 was much more confusing of a rule than hybrid mana, created legitimate feel-bad moments like with Celestial Dawn. Removing it has made gameplay much more intuitive because while it hasn't affected deck building, it now let's you actually cast cards you steal and use the activated abilities. It would be a real shame to reinstate rule 4 just in order to make hybrid cards work.

I'm genuinely curious, because there seems to be a lot of arguments that it would NOT homogenize decks, so to everyone who wants to run off-color hybrid cards, what would you SPECIFICALLY start playing that you can't already get the effect in color?

Edit: "It's very clunky from a rules perspective." - There you go, right there. All the justification you need to leave the rules as they are currently.

Yeah man I won't argue that too hard. There's plenty of reason to leave it like it is. I'd like it better if it weren't :) But to be fair clunky things do make Magic more fun sometimes. The complexity is part of the appeal.

For me, my list of hybrid cards I would consider running:


(and any of the lieges really too)

The couple that really rankle for me personally:
Dovescape/enchanted evening in GW enchantress
Thopter foundry in azorius artifacts
murderous redcap in abzan company-type deck
and nightveil specter in mono black devotion

(Having to take Plumeveil out of my doran deck was really annoying too)

Something you'll see from my habits is I usually like trying to replicate play patterns of 60-card decks I have loved, so sometimes it's disappointing for me when you can't play something like Nightveil in MBD, or I have to play 4c to play redcap combo if I want Abzan colors.



The biggest downside to things being the way they are is that I commonly feel pulled into playing 3-5 color decks just for a couple cards I really want to play and they are often hybrids like Thopter Foundry.

Now that we have so many options for 4c+ commanders I find the restriction a bit chafing, as it pulls me toward making partner decks. And I doubt I am the only one who feels that way.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Oh, yea Rhys would be really sweet in white decks given the Ranger of Eos type effects they have.

Shadow of Doubt is also a really sweet card I would love to have more access to. I wish I could run it in Toshiro Umezawa.
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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

So where do you draw a line when it comes to running an off color card that fits the theme of the deck and is being played as intended? Since we aren't debating the mechanics of the rules and can agree that Sundering Growth is always a green and white card, we are left with debating the semantics of being able to run a green card in a mono white deck which can already interact with artifacts and enchantments but not being able to run Bane of Progress in a Chainer deck that needs help dealing with artifacts and enchantments.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
So where do you draw a line when it comes to running an off color card that fits the theme of the deck and is being played as intended? Since we aren't debating the mechanics of the rules and can agree that Sundering Growth is always a green and white card, we are left with debating the semantics of being able to run a green card in a mono white deck which can already interact with artifacts and enchantments but not being able to run Bane of Progress in a Chainer deck that needs help dealing with artifacts and enchantments.
I guess my argument is more that we are constantly stretching what colors can do. Most anytime we get a new artifact we sort of stretch the color pie and every time we get a new card for a color that does something it didn't used to do we also stretch what it can do. Lots of the arguments against hybrid mana tend to be arguing that colors aren't supposed to do those things but in a lot of cases just new cards being introduced have the same argument.

No, I don't really want to see renamiator decks being all colors by default. I just think that in a lot of cases new cards do the same thing to the game as adding hybrid mana might. Most hybrid mana cards aren't even considerations anywhere and when they are relevant it tends to be more so for mono colored decks and sometimes two colored decks.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
So where do you draw a line when it comes to running an off color card that fits the theme of the deck and is being played as intended? Since we aren't debating the mechanics of the rules and can agree that Sundering Growth is always a green and white card, we are left with debating the semantics of being able to run a green card in a mono white deck which can already interact with artifacts and enchantments but not being able to run Bane of Progress in a Chainer deck that needs help dealing with artifacts and enchantments.
While I think the various rules approaches to fix the problem would be clunky I don't think that means they surely should not be changed.

I think running green cards in white decks is too far; but hybrid green/white decks I think would be OK.

It's probably fine to just put to bed the whole "what about completely off color cards" as no one is for that that I've heard at least not in this thread.



Re: Rules fixes

The simplest fix is:
903.4d Hybrid mana symbols with two mana symbols are either color identity

The cleanest fix is:

107.4e Hybrid mana symbols are also colored mana symbols. Each one represents a cost that can be paid in one of two ways, as represented by the two halves of the symbol. A hybrid symbol such as {W/U} can be paid with either white or blue mana, and a monocolored hybrid symbol such as {2/B} can be paid with either one black mana or two mana of any type. A multicolored hybrid mana symbol is all either of its component colors and monocolored hybrid symbols are their color.

202.2d An object with one or more hybrid mana symbols and/or Phyrexian mana symbols in its mana cost is all of the possible colors of those mana symbols, in addition to any other colors the object might be. (Most cards with hybrid mana symbols in their mana costs are printed in a two-tone frame. See rule 107.4e.)



Neither fix is super clean either would do the job with no real fuss that I can think of (other than complexity).

Sundering growth remains a green card; but you can play it in a white deck because it's also a white card that does not have any non-white mana symbols on it.
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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

This just sounds like rules lawyer shenanigans to try and get 'better' cards in decks.

I get what people are saying about Artifacts, but they are also often over-costed for exactly that reason.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

MRHblue wrote:
4 years ago
This just sounds like rules lawyer shenanigans to try and get 'better' cards in decks.

I get what people are saying about Artifacts, but they are also often over-costed for exactly that reason.
For me, I actually played kitchen magic with the hybrid cards before I had ever heard about commander. I played them as they were designed and so I enjoy them. The problem I have is that most of the time when you can legally run them, they aren't all that great. Sure its a bump for decks with fewer colors but can you tell me of a lot of 3+ color decks that would care to use these cards. The number of places they are relivant is very low and most of the time they are not high powered.

My want to play these cards comes mostly from sentimental reasons. I wouldn't say that there are many optimal times where a deck is worse because they don't have access to hybrid mana cards. I remember the old days of kitchen magic where people ran about with bad dragons and Cinder Cloud was used to kill Serra Angel. (Ok that was before hybrid mana's time but I played some kitchen table more recently too lol)
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