I originally didn't reply to this, because the vast majority of these arguments had already been covered in discussion with Legend, but if you're gonna call me out like that, I'll get right on it.Cow31337Killer wrote: ↑4 years agoOkay people seemed to ignore this in order to keep arguing with Legend but I gotta say this is an A+ post. Honestly if there's anything that could convince me that wishes would be good for the format it's this post here. Great example of a well thought out and respectfully persuasive argument concerning wishes (which is what a lot of people were asking for *cough* tarotplz *cough*)
First up, the main reason why wishes are often equated to narrow answers like color hosers and the like is that they do those sort of effects better than any other kind of card. If you want to put a card like Choke into your deck, there is the inherit downside of what will happen if you run into a table without a blue deck (or just small blue splashes, you get the idea).Impossible wrote: ↑4 years agoThe idea that Wishes will invariably lead to nothing but degenerate color-hosers and the like is kind of self-defeating, in that it assumes players' only intentions are to win at any cost instead of, I dunno, follow the format philosophy. One of my most hated phrases ever rears it's ugly head here, but this time I get to invoke it's nonsense in defense of my point instead of the other way around: "fair use". There are numerous cards that should almost certainly be banned but they skirt the list because of their so-called fair use value. The idea being that because these cards have the potential to be used in a fair and fun manner, any concerns that said cards are also combo machines and can end games the moment they're resolved tend to be glossed over. So sure, it's possible to do awful things with Wishes. But it's also possible to do awesome things. The question becomes why don't WIshes get the same benefit of the doubt that other cards seem to get?
In that situation your narrow hoser will be a dead card and this is why they don't actually see play in general. Even looking into the direction of cEDH, those kind of cards are maybeboard inclusions in certain stax builds at best. (for example Blood Pod would very occasionally run it in the bluest of blue metas)
If you can wish for a narrow answer however this downside completely disappears. If one of your narrow hosers is dead in the matchup, your wish can still get you one that works in the given circumstances. This is a big upside.
Note that a normal tutor does not have this upside. You still need to put the potentially dead card into your deck. Sometimes you'll still draw it and it will do nothing. The downside is definitly still there.
When people say that wishes will lead to narrow answers they don't simply mean that people are jerks and will hate on their friends with those kind of cards, but instead they worry about the increased temptation to get these cards & them often being the optimal play as they work so well with wishes. At this point it is more than just wish opponents assuming player intentions and instead becomes a prediction based on the function of the cards in question.
To adress your second point about cards that get the "fair-use" benefit of the doubt. I'm assuming you're referring to cards like Protean Hulk etc. I would argue that many of these card don't in fact get the benefit of the doubt at all. At least not as far as a big chunk of the playerbase is concerned. I'm sure you didn't miss the outcry of when Paradox Engine was banned, but Flash and Protean Hulk were allowed to stay in the format.
Legend raised pretty much the exact same point. Ultimately this is purely opinion based though. I get the bit about it being unintuitive, but think about what would happen if the wishes were actually placed on the ban list today.Impossible wrote: ↑4 years agoThere is also the argument that @papa_funk mentioned that he believes the current rule is the easiest and cleanest version they could make and thus far has proven fine, but I fairly strongly disagree. I cannot accept that a rule that allows cards to be legally played but have no actual rules text on them is anything but a disaster of common sense. I firmly believe that at a fundamental level cards should do what they say they do. Rule 13 is essentially format-specific errata that doesn't need to exist. Are Wishes simply too powerful of a mechanic that they need to be banned? I don't think so, but if the RC does then Wishes should be explicitly banned by name, like any other card. If Wishes don't actually need to be banned and the only problems with them are logistical, blanket banning them anyway via errata seems completely unnecessary. The point is that right now, at least to me, it feels very much like the RC simply couldn't be bothered to make Wishes work and just soft-banned them instead of dealing with it. I would very much prefer either an explicit ban on each "outside the game" card with a reason why -- not a reason why for each card, but a general reason why they're unsuitable for EDH -- or for them to be set free and actually do what the cards say they do. This middle ground of legal-but-do-nothing is the worst possible option in my opinion.
It would be significantly harder for playgroups that want to use them to house-unban them, as at that point your going against the direct "will" of the RC. Play groups that make their own ban list are often looked down upon by large chunks of the community and personally I feel like there definitly is a sort of stigma on custom bans and unbans in EDH.
The current solution might not be perfect, but what it does do is leave the most freedom possible to the people that actually want to use wishes in their games. A banlist solution has less freedom and them being legal in the format is problematic for those people that don't want to use wishes.
The word easy can be interpreted in many ways in this context. One way could be the ease of understanding the rules regarding wishes, but another could be the easy acess to wishes in your own EDH games should you want them.
I disagree with that being the main argument against wishes. As you said, we are effectively talking about an unban here. There are certain conditions that need to be met in order for an unban to be actually viable.Impossible wrote: ↑4 years agoSomething that has also been floated (and in my personal opinion appears to be the sole reason Wishes are 'banned') is the notion that making Wishes legal would require a significant overhaul of the rules, as things would need to be explicitly spelled out to prevent confusion, and that ultimately making a small handful of cards work isn't worth the effort. I touched on this topic a little bit already, as it is pretty inextricably linked to the idea of having the simplest rules be the best a la papa_funk, but I think this is worth diving into as a full topic. Mainly because I think the idea is being wrongly applied in this instance. While I agree that when it comes to rules, simple generally means best. But this idea that rewriting Rule 13 to explain how Wishes work is bad seems to be based on an idea that adding rules is a negative no matter the context, because more rules is bad. And that's what I would like to push back against.
1.) The unban can't unbalance the format. This would happen if the unbanned card is significantly stronger than the rest of the field and would therefore overcentralize gameplay. I don't think that most wishes fall into this category, but Karn, the Great Creator definitly does in my opinion. Maybe if we excluded Karn we could argue that this condition might be met, but the 2nd one is quite a bit more relevant, especially regarding EDH.
2.) There needs to be a good reason to believe that the unbanned card would improve the format by causing "good gameplay" rather than "bad gameplay". This is the main category I see wishes struggle with. They are certainly capable of both, I don't think anyone could deny that, but coupled with the fact that they do narrow answers better than other cards and more importantly the fact that they DID cause bad experiences in the past when they were allowed, I simply can't agree this condition is even close to being met.
If you have an argument to present that would make me believe that there is a good chance wishes would improve the format, I would love to hear it, but as it stands I have yet to see anything remotely convincing in this regard.
I agree with this to the extent that I think, that if wishes were to be allowed in the format, the logistical aspects of a wishboard would not be that big of a problem. The concept is pretty straight forward.Impossible wrote: ↑4 years agoI assume most of us are familiar with the word grok, as MaRo likes to use it frequently? For the quick and dirty version I'm going to just steal cite his definition of the word from his article Between a Grok and a Hard Place:
"The usage that I'm most interested in is the idea that people understand something so intimately that they are not even conscious why they understand it. To grok something by this definition means that you understand it in a way that is more intuitive than intellectual. You get the essence of what it means, but mostly because it just feels right – not because you've been formally taught anything about it."
I bring this up because I think we should examine the prospect of adding more rules in the context of, not how long they are or how many sentences they add, but instead how grokkable they are. So a hypothetical version of Rule 13 that spells out exactly what players can or cannot get with Wishes should be judged on how easy it is for an average player to grok. And, in my opinion, I think it will be pretty easy for most players to grok because it is most likely just restating the deck construction rules that everyone is already familiar with. Do we really think it's so difficult for players to grok something like "Cards that search 'outside the game' instead search a 15-card pre-constructed Wishboard. The WIshboard must conform to all Commander deck-building restrictions: [list of color identity/singleton/legality rules here]". Because I personally don't think so.
What it would do however is piss people off. Especially those that don't plan to use wishes. They now essentially have to build a wishboard for almost no reason. If they don't, they'll be at a disadvantage if they gain control of a wish or due to the fact that their opponents now know they're not playing any wishes.
This leaves us with it being an inconvenience for the playerbase. Of course if wishes were a huge benefit for the format, it might be worth it, but like I said, as things are now, that seems unlikely.