[MCD] Wishes

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

tarotplz wrote:
4 years ago
(...I only ever drew parallels to cEDH and never actually talked about it directly...)
What's the difference? Especially when it's been obvious since your first post (you were in fact the first respondent in this thread) that your thesis and everything that has followed, no matter how well stated, has come through a cEDH filter. "Wishing shouldn't work in Commander because it might interrupt my game of solitaire." is not an argument against Wishing in Commander.

Fortunately for cEDH players, even without Rule 13, sanctioned games solve this problem. In a world where Wish effects function in Commander according to Wizards' rule on them, the solution to the cEDH players' dilemma would simply be to play in sanctioned events. That is the strength of defaulting to Wizards' rule on Wish effects rather than Rule 13: It would let never-Wishers play sanctioned events in order to avoid Wishing and Wishers to play unsanctioned events in order to enjoy Wishing. Both would be equally legit regardless of opinion or mood, and official in every sense of the word, and put the onus on standardized rules instead of heaping the burden of responsibility on the players. Yet it would still empower players to evoke Rule 0 to decide if they wan't to play as though they're in a sanctioned event, even if they aren't.

That being said, players wouldn't be forced to resort to Rule 0 to Wish, which when it comes to Wish effects, is always a bad experience for everyone involved. It's a false analogy to compare hashing out Wish effects with Rule 0 and hashing out deck power level with Rule 0. It starts the game with what is essentially an argument. It is never comfortable or pleasant and sets an awkward, uncomfortable vibe for the rest of the game (if not the day) regardless of what decision was made. Wishers don't want to ask if they can Wish and never-Wishers don't want to be asked if it's okay to Wish. Never-Wishers don't like to tell Wishers "no" and Wishers don't like to be told "no". If the Wisher may Wish, nobody feels like they're playing a real game of Commander. If the Wisher may not Wish, everyone's mood ring turns amber. It's all very childish. The notion that "Rule 0 makes it super fun to hash out Wishing before games" is a total fantasy. The exact opposite is true. Doing away with Rule 13 and defaulting to Wizards' rule would solve all of this.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
cryogen
GΘΔ†
Posts: 1056
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Westminster, MD
Contact:

Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

So, not to reanimate the discussion of whether "outside the game" effects should be changed to actually function, but I wanted to pose some questions for the users who actually do use them with houserules:

1. What size wishboard do you use?
2. Which "outside the game" cards do you use?
3, What cards are you putting in your wishboard?
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

onering
Posts: 1226
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 4 years ago

1. Any size with a 2 minute time limit to search.

2. Mostly just Spawnsire, but glittering et Al have shown up

3. Narrow answer cards, a large pile of eldrazi for Spawnsire, a few good broad answers (because sometimes you just need to grab a sweeper or decent piece of removal), etc.

Settemio
Triviamonger
Posts: 15
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by Settemio » 4 years ago

1. I don't anymore, because I play online exclusively these days. When I played in shops with strangers and around tables with friends, I used a 10-card with no duplicates in maindeck and nothing outside of color identity.

2. Again, this was in the past so I only used Burning Wish and Living Wish in one deck and Cunning Wish in two others.

3. A combo piece that I usually didn't use as one (Dualcaster Mage)
Generic value cards (Clever Impersonator, Greenwarden of Murasa, Oracle of Mul Daya, Seedborn Muse, Epic Experiment, Guided Passage, Mizzix's Mastery, Preordain)
Narrow-ish answers (Calming Verse, Hurkyl's Recall, Wing Shards, Shelter, Summary Dismissal, Shadow of Doubt)
Charms (Simic Charm, Evolution Charm)
Silly weirdness (Mirrorweave)

schweinefett
Posts: 114
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

I was curious what people had for responses, but in general, we play with "reasonable houserules" as our guide.
(in response to the 3 questions posed by cryogen)
1. if it/they can be found in a reasonable amount of time (say 1-2 mins tops)
2. death wish, spawnsire and ring of ma'ruf (or however its spelled). The ring especially is awesome, since it puts "from outside the game" in italics. It knows it's awesome.
3. Depends on the deck. For rakdos the defiler (and death wish), its lich, obviously. For spawnsire, I've a box of 300+ eldrazi cards. for the ring, it's for a pretty janky deck, so whatever i felt like at that moment in time, within reach of a binder.

I feel like the wish argument is always a bit of a "official rules" vs "spirit of the rules" sorta deal. officially, its a casual format, right? so what the card says should be overruling the 'official' rules (look at relentless rats for deckbuilding constraints). And i get that people wanna know explicitly whats ok and whats not.

But at the end of the day, its probably still the most important to have the OK of peeps you play with before you dive in with ring of ma'ruf.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4538
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

So obviously this has come up against because of lessons. But there was something else I learned about today thanks to TCC that surprised me - in the gladiator format (which sounds like more flash in the pan to me but w/e), they ALSO don't allow wishes or companions. I have to say that I don't get it. From the professor's justification, it all sounds like irrational hate to me.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
So obviously this has come up against because of lessons. But there was something else I learned about today thanks to TCC that surprised me - in the gladiator format (which sounds like more flash in the pan to me but w/e), they ALSO don't allow wishes or companions. I have to say that I don't get it. From the professor's justification, it all sounds like irrational hate to me.
Gladiator is based off Canadian Highlander, which also doesn't allow sideboards (or wishes by association). That does raise the question of why that format doesn't have sideboards though.

User avatar
Impossible
Posts: 67
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Impossible » 2 years ago

I can't help but notice there's another outside the game mechanic being introduced.

Boy howdy, it sure would be nice if some of these new cards actually worked.
Image

onering
Posts: 1226
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
I can't help but notice there's another outside the game mechanic being introduced.

Boy howdy, it sure would be nice if some of these new cards actually worked.
These are interesting in that they aren't cards that you can cast or ever bring into any zone other than the CZ. The way they actually work is similar to a temporary emblem with triggered abilities, and the only reason they don't function exactly like emblems is because you have to physically own the card, like a planar card. I can see these being allowed while being consistent with not allowing wishes or allowing learn to fetch lessons.

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Yeah, I don't consider dungeons to be equivalent to wishes or learn / lesson - they don't have any mechanical function on their own and don't interact with anything. They're effectively just being used as a memory aid, comparable to the monarch token. The fact that they don't take up sideboard slots in other formats is a pretty clear indicator that they don't function like normal cards.

I'll also note that conspiracy cards (ex: Adriana's Valor) provide rules precedent for cards living in the command zone.

User avatar
Impossible
Posts: 67
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Impossible » 2 years ago

Mookie wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I don't consider dungeons to be equivalent to wishes or learn / lesson - they don't have any mechanical function on their own and don't interact with anything. They're effectively just being used as a memory aid, comparable to the monarch token. The fact that they don't take up sideboard slots in other formats is a pretty clear indicator that they don't function like normal cards.

I'll also note that conspiracy cards (ex: Adriana's Valor) provide rules precedent for cards living in the command zone.
And yet they exist outside of the game and aren't self-referential. So according to all precedent, they don't work in EDH, correct?
Image

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
And yet they exist outside of the game and aren't self-referential. So according to all precedent, they don't work in EDH, correct?
In my thinking, 'outside the game' = sideboard - that's how it is used for wishes and similar effects. Dungeons don't take up a sideboard slot, which means they function on a fundamentally different axis, and aren't necessarily affected by the rule that stops wishes from working. It's possible that a minor rules change may be necessary for dungeons to function in EDH.... but I think it is more likely that dungeon rules will be covered entirely by the core ruleset, and no EDH-specific errata will be necessary.

User avatar
cryogen
GΘΔ†
Posts: 1056
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Westminster, MD
Contact:

Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
I can't help but notice there's another outside the game mechanic being introduced.

Boy howdy, it sure would be nice if some of these new cards actually worked.
Dungeon cards do work. The RC announced almost instantly that they do.
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

User avatar
Impossible
Posts: 67
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Impossible » 2 years ago

cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Dungeon cards do work. The RC announced almost instantly that they do.
Haha, of course they do. First it was all outside the game cards don't work period. Then it was outside the game cards work if they're self-referential. Now it's outside the game cards work because we decided some of them do and some of them don't.

Glad to see we're consistent. /s

Guess I'll come back next year when another outside the game mechanic is inevitably printed and see if the RC has finally gotten with the times or not.
Image

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

The announcement in question
Dungeons aren't cards in the traditional sense. They can't go into your deck, and their main function is as a specialized progress marker. That's fine in Commander.

User avatar
cryogen
GΘΔ†
Posts: 1056
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Westminster, MD
Contact:

Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Dungeon cards do work. The RC announced almost instantly that they do.
Haha, of course they do. First it was all outside the game cards don't work period. Then it was outside the game cards work if they're self-referential. Now it's outside the game cards work because we decided some of them do and some of them don't.

Glad to see we're consistent. /s

Guess I'll come back next year when another outside the game mechanic is inevitably printed and see if the RC has finally gotten with the times or not.
These work exactly the same as planechase schemes. The only only reason people freaked out and the RC had to address it was because WotC made them work differently.

No one tried to argue that since you can have an 83 card planar deck the RC should allow wishes. Literally the only time there was any inconsistency and a rules change was for companion, and even that was debated about internally (at least amongst the CAG, I don't know if anyone on the RC publicly made an individual statement).
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

User avatar
BeneTleilax
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Dungeon cards do work. The RC announced almost instantly that they do.
Haha, of course they do. First it was all outside the game cards don't work period. Then it was outside the game cards work if they're self-referential. Now it's outside the game cards work because we decided some of them do and some of them don't.

Glad to see we're consistent. /s

Guess I'll come back next year when another outside the game mechanic is inevitably printed and see if the RC has finally gotten with the times or not.
The difference here, to me, is that these cards are placeholders, rather than real additional cards using an out-of-game space. As I mentioned in the unreleased cards thread, any cards that don't take up space in the 99 have a far lower opportunity cost and greater tutorability. This clearly presents a far higher risk of homogenization than almost any other mechanic, warranting far greater safeguards. Because dungeons act effectively as references for the Venture cards (which do take place in the 99) rather than additional cards that can be tutored, they don't pose that risk to nearly the same degree as Lessons or simple wishboards.

User avatar
Impossible
Posts: 67
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Impossible » 2 years ago

cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
These work exactly the same as planechase schemes.
,,,except for the fact no actual cards reference "schemes" and it's impossible to bring a scheme into a non-Archenemy game.
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
No one tried to argue that since you can have an 83 card planar deck the RC should allow wishes.
And again, with the exception of one card, no actual Magic card references Planes, and cannot bring them into a non-Planechase game.

Dungeons are cards that exist in a... board of some kind... that sits on the side of the game until needed, and regular cards can grant a player the ability to search out whichever Dungeon they wish from this so-called sideboard and bring them into an active game. Well gee-golly that sure sounds like a Wish to me. Just because there are currently only 3 Dungeons to choose from doesn't change that. And do we really expect the D&D EDH decks to not have at least one new Dungeon?
Image

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4538
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
And do we really expect the D&D EDH decks to not have at least one new Dungeon?
Are those a thing? I hadn't heard anything about linked commander decks for the set.

If they are, I think it's unlikely that they would have new dungeons. Otherwise they'd presumably become options for all the other cards that use the mechanic? Unless there's some sort of "this dungeon is legacy only" kind of situation, which just sounds like a mess.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
BeneTleilax
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
Dungeons are cards that exist in a... board of some kind... that sits on the side of the game until needed, and regular cards can grant a player the ability to search out whichever Dungeon they wish from this so-called sideboard and bring them into an active game. Well gee-golly that sure sounds like a Wish to me. Just because there are currently only 3 Dungeons to choose from doesn't change that. And do we really expect the D&D EDH decks to not have at least one new Dungeon?
Tokens are cards that exist in a... nowhere of some kind... that sits on the side of the game until needed, and regular cards can grant a player the ability to create whichever token they wish from this so-called (I honestly have no idea what to call the primordial Guf from which tokens are created) and bring them into an active game. Well gee-golly that sure sounds like a Wish to me. Just because there are currently only 500-some tokens to choose from doesn't change that. And do we really expect the D&D EDH decks to not have at least one new token?

User avatar
cryogen
GΘΔ†
Posts: 1056
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Westminster, MD
Contact:

Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Impossible wrote:
2 years ago
And do we really expect the D&D EDH decks to not have at least one new Dungeon?
Are those a thing? I hadn't heard anything about linked commander decks for the set.

If they are, I think it's unlikely that they would have new dungeons. Otherwise they'd presumably become options for all the other cards that use the mechanic? Unless there's some sort of "this dungeon is legacy only" kind of situation, which just sounds like a mess.
It was definitively stated by.... I can't remember which WotC employee, that there are only three dungeons in the main set and none in the Commander precons. The door is still open for the future, of course, but what we have seen is what we are getting.
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

User avatar
KitsuLeif
Posts: 204
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by KitsuLeif » 2 years ago

It was MaRo who confirmed that there are only those three dungeons that have already been previewed:
Are there dungeons in addition to the three previewed today that are exclusive to the Commander AFR decks or will those decks only rely on the same three dungeons?


The three dungeons you've seen are the only three dungeons.

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

and now there's Wish
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

onering
Posts: 1226
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 2 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
and now there's Wish
Ok, throw it in the pile with the other wishes. Nothing of value is lost.

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 2034
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Toronto, Canada

Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Literally the only time there was any inconsistency and a rules change was for companion, and even that was debated about internally (at least amongst the CAG, I don't know if anyone on the RC publicly made an individual statement).
It's still a black eye on the rules to be able to pay to get your companion "from outside the game" but you can't pay for a Living Wish and get your companion "from outside the game".

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Rules and Philosophy”