Sharpened wrote: ↑4 years ago
The official Magic rules on wishing have not changed since 2002
Regardless of what was official, players had all kinds of their own ideas about how to Wish well after 2002. The vast majority of players at that time (if not now) didn't play sanctioned games. They played unsanctioned, casual games and tended to interpret cards by their rules text, not errata or other special rules. The homogenized game Magic is today simply wasn't a reality prior to smart phones going mainstream when they became relatively affordable due to Android releasing touchscreen technology in 2010, the year after the rule on Wishing was streamlined.
1.
This is the oldest article about Commander that I have found. Wishing was banned since the format's genesis.
2.
Here again we see Wishing banned as early as 2002 despite a "gentleman's agreement" (surely the social contract of pre-history) and unbanned in 2004 for the specific purpose of retrieving cards from exile.
3. According to
this article from 2002, Wishes could retrieve cards from exile or from sideboards.
4. In 2002, players were still trying to
Wish for cards in a "parent game" of a "sub game".
5. In 2003, players were still trying to Wish for cards in the
Phased Out Zone. Interesting that Sheldon's ruling precedes Wizard's announcement by several years.
6. According to
this article, only
Death Wish could be used to Wish for exiled face down cards. (
Ring of Ma'Ruf probably could, too.)
7. According to
this article from 2003, "Wishes replace in your sideboard whatever card you Wished for. Remember this between games and matches." Not only is that damn strange, but it allowed Wishers to loop
Cunning Wishes,
Burning Wishes, and Death Wishes.
8. In 2004, players were still trying to
Wish for ante cards. Interesting that Sheldon's ruling precedes Wizard's ruling by several months.
9. Wizards introduced a new
rule for Wishing in 2009, possibly in preparation for
Spawnsire of Ulamog, the first Wish effect at the time to have been printed in 4 years (
Research//Development being the last, which was similarly printed 4 years after the Wish cycle).
10.
Here we see Wishing in 2010 relying on an optional sideboard rule and the approval of others "as always".
The point in mentioning all this is to show that, like I said, Wishing was messy business back in the day because these kinds of interactions were not widely understood at the time because the very concept of "zones" was not clear to many people (arguably not even to R&D). "Outside of game", which was synonymous with the "removed from game" zone, was a special kind of confusing because it felt like they encompassed areas of play that were actually other zones. People wondered, did they mean a box or binder, a sideboard, ante, phased out, or in a parent game of a subgame? What if a card was removed from game face down but the Wisher knew what the card was? What if a card was removed from a parent game? Can
Pull from Eternity get a card from a sideboard in 2006? Why not? So-on-and-so-forth. Answers were not immediately available, so people just filled in the blanks. And despite the rules having been freshly streamlined late 2009, the logistics of Wishing were still not much clearer by even 2012 because news of such things spread slowly back then (though increasingly rapidly). These issues are all solved and easily managed now because the rules have been streamlined for nearly a decade, are easily accessible, and widely understood as a result. We take this for granted now. There's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't accurate to project today's understanding of Wishing on yesteryear's understanding of it. They just didn't have it. (To do so is actually a logical fallacy, but I can't remember what it's called.)
This matters because what's happening is a twofold mindfork against the proposition of Wishing in Commander. One prong is veteran players living in the past, assuming that if Wishing is allowed in Commander, it will be a mess just like it was 15-20 years ago. The other prong is new players living in the present, assuming that players of the olden days somehow had a contemporary view of Wishing, but still couldn't get it right. It's best to avoid both views.
This has become quite the tangent. The only point that I was making in the previous post or two was that the RC's view of Wishing in Commander during its formative and early years was entirely justified because Wishing was indeed a debacle. Perhaps it was even justified for the last 10 years, but it isn't justified today. That view now seems petrified, frozen in time, dated, pertinent only in a bygone era, and a little insensitive to what's happening in Magic now, despite the streamlining of the rules; widespread, instant access to those rules; Wizard's obvious intent to make Wishing a normal part of the game; and the overall general maturation of the Magic community in regard to respecting others (largely due to social media).
Sharpened wrote: ↑4 years ago
Look, if wishes can get any card you own, then there is no inherent requirement that the card you get has to follow the deck construction rules of the format. It may seem logically that you should still have to, but technically, you don't. You'd have to create a rule specifying that.
Not "create" a rule, just rewrite Rule 13 to emulate Wizard's rule. The only thing that matters is maintaining the integrity of the format's identity in unsanctioned play because sanctioned play would remain effectively unchanged anyways. Imagine a Rule 13 that handles Wishing sensibly by bridging Wizard's rule into the Commander paradigm.
RULE THIRTEEN 2.0
In unsanctioned games of Commander, an effect that would bring a card from outside the game into the game may do so only if the card meets the requirements of the effect, is legal in Commander, doesn't break the color identity rule, doesn't break the singleton rule (unless the card itself can do so), and the card back is indistinguishable from other card backs in the deck (if necessary). A card brought into the game will remain in the game for the remainder of that game. In sanctioned games of Commander, an effect that would bring a card from outside the game into the game will have no effect because there are no sideboards in Commander.
Note that Rule 4 (exactly 100 card deck) isn't a factor because once a game begins, a "deck" becomes a "library", so the rule is technically never broken. (CR 103.1) Similitudinous rules apply to color identity and singleton also. If I had my way, they would not be part of the revised rule either, but I think a version that respects them is more palatable to most players, and understandably so.
Sharpened wrote: ↑4 years ago
If you are going to make rules about wishing, for example, to preserve the color identity and singleton aspects, that's fine. But you cannot do that AND claim that you are just making wishing function like it does in casual play, where you can get anything. You are then constructing Commander specific rules for wishing, which is not making them function as designed.
I thought we'd moved on from "casual" to "sanctioned" and "unsanctioned" for clarity. But I assume by "casual" you mean "unsanctioned".
Like I said, I'd love for them to function as designed even in Commander, which is perfectly supported by the existing rules of Magic, but I'm much less inclined to lobby for that than I am to just get them a proper place in the format. With that in mind, rather than saying Wishing should function as "designed", I should have said as "intended" – as in, according to Wizard's Rule, but with Commander specific stipulations. Wishing doesn't necessarily have to function as designed sans stipulations in order to function as intended – or better yet, as "imagined" – in Commander. Because let's face it, everyone imagines them syncing with Commander's basic rules. I wonder, has there ever been a time or format in which Wishing literally worked as designed as opposed to as intended or imagined? Anyways, all that matters is that Wishing works in Commander according to Wizard's Rule, which deals with sanctioned and unsanctioned, but of course modified to the modi of Commander.
Sharpened wrote: ↑4 years ago
The simplest and best way to preserve those rules is to use the official rules sanctioned functionality, not the casual one.
Again, I assume by "casual" you mean "unsanctioned". I couldn't disagree more. This flies in the face of the entire format philosophy. As long as Commander is first-and-foremost a casual format, the default state of Commander should be assumed to be unsanctioned and casual. All the more reason for Wizard's Rule to be the pattern. Assimilating unsanctioned and sanctioned Wishing has created and perpetuated frustration if not confusion. The distinction between the two should be restored and preserved.
Sharpened wrote: ↑4 years ago
Social contract is fine for managing implicit expectations, and thats something people can expect to deal with. But the explicit expectations are defined, and if they are to be modified, thats what Rule 0 is for. If people are sitting down to a game with real deck construction rules, the sideboard vs anything functionality of wishes should default to sideboard. Rule 13 codifies that, and clarifies the result of it in a format for decks that have no sideboards. Rule 13 is entirely compatible with the official rules for wishing.
Only regarding sanctioned play. Otherwise, Rule 13 is a wart on the face of Commander, which might be pardonable if it actually did clarify the result. Think about it. Right now, if a player brews a Commander deck with Wishes in it, there's a chance they could function in unsanctioned play thanks to Rule 0, but there is no chance of them functioning in sanctioned play, not due to Rule 13, but due to the overriding presence of Wizard's Rule, which is not subject to Rule 0. That's neither clear nor consistent. I've already made this point at least once but you conveniently ignored it.
You claim that it would confuse players for Wishing to function differently in sanctioned play than it does in unsanctioned play. Honestly, I think that's a novel and excellent point. Though one to which I ask, "Where is the evidence?" For a decade, Wizards' Rule has been based on the delineation between sanctioned games and unsanctioned games. Yet despite a decade of opportunity for evidence of confusion to manifest, there is only evidence to the contrary. Virtually universal comprehension, approval, and practice. The same will hold true in Commander.
As an aside, I really do want to thank you for making some previously murky things clear to me (and not only because doing so has actually strengthened the case for Wishing in Commander).