[SCD] Flash

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

MRHblue wrote:
6 months ago
I think this may be misguided as an idea just a little, mostly built on a Food Chain or Isochron ban "have almost no negative impact on normal EDH". I see both pretty regularly for value , certainly not for infinite wins .

I think thats a fine idea, but breaks down on actual execution. Sure I have never seen flash, really don't care. But if making cEDH 'better' means a ban on IS, I don't think it's a smart move. So then why is my idea on Flash OK? Someone else probably sees it regularly.
You could definitely be right. And it could also be "give'em an inch and they'll take a mile" scenario where once you ban one thing to improve CEDH diversity you get a cavalcade of requests that can no longer be denied smoothly because you've opened the door.

I am inclined to approve the Flash ban personally regardless, but I do see the risks on many counts. I also see Food chain and Isochron Scepter as less problematic for sure, but those are the types of things I would anticipate CEDH asking for next -- though it's really tough to predict.

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Post by toctheyounger » 6 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
6 months ago
I personally never understood why Protean Hulk was unbanned, and the reality is that not a single soul has used it for "value".
I use Hulk for Value in my Glissa build. It's decent without being busted.

That being said I get the point, in a competitive context it's a very strong ability.

Flash I've thought about using before. Seems decent value with the spirit dragons, Solemn Simulacrum I guess....but there's really not much else other than these that doesn't get into combo quickly. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if it's dominating cEDH metas (based on this thread and Sheldon's in the main forum I'm led to believe so), I have no issue seeing it go. I've literally never seen it played, not even once, so it's no skin off my nose. I can definitely see how stupid it could be - with Hulk in the mix you could combo off stupidly early with very little risk of disruption.

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Post by WizardMN » 6 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
6 months ago
I personally never understood why Protean Hulk was unbanned, and the reality is that not a single soul has used it for "value".
I currently have 3 green decks that can, at least somewhat easily, sacrifice creatures and I use it for nothing *but* value. In fact, I would say I have never seen it used as any sort of end game or the catalyst to an infinite combo. This again seems like a strong statement that in cEDH it is always used for infinites whereas in non-cEDH it is more often not used that way (I don't want to say never because I am sure it comes up somewhere).

I get that Flash+Hulk is a problem in cEDH but it isn't in other facets of the format. The RC can't hope to satisfy both groups. Even banning Flash to satisfy cEDH players means that now the "casual" players miss out on this card. And yes, I understand that Paradox Engine is one that cEDH wasn't having a problem with (apparently) which just goes to show that different cards mean different things to different players and it becomes difficult for the RC to make decisions that will make both groups happy and still be consistent in their rationale.

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Post by Taleran » 6 months ago

I'd be hard pressed to find decks that are using Flash in deck that isn't also running one of the Rectors or Hulk.

I get that Protean Hulk is a rather unique effect however if we are trying to flash things in fairly there exist other cards that fill that niche like Savage Summoning or Scout's Warning to name only instants.

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

There is a reason that flash is banned in legacy/restricted in vintage and not protean hulk or griselbrand.

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Post by Sharpened » 6 months ago

Of the decks running Flash, 73% of them are running Protean Hulk per EDHREC.
Of the decks running Protean Hulk, 21% of them are running Flash.

Most common commanders runningProtean Hulk:
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - 628
Muldrotha, the Gravetide - 506
Karador, Ghost Chieftain - 264

It would seem people are running the Hulk as a value card.

Most common commanders running Flash:
Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tymna the Weaver - 211
Najeela, the Blade-Blossom - 74
Prime Speaker Vannifar - 64

Very few people appear to to be running Flash as anything other than a degenerate combo piece.

I think it's pretty clear which card you would attack if you were going to ban a card.
I think the dilemma is more about the can of worms you open if you do ban Flash.

Flash isn't ruining casual games (primarily because no one is playing it). It is possible to play it in a non-degenerate fashion, and you don't accidentally do something degenerate with it. so it doesn't NEED to be banned for casual games.
A banning of Flash would 100% be about cEDH. The cost is low, as it wouldn't be missed by non-cEDH players, but it also means that the rules committee is now trying to ban/regulate for cEDH. And where does going down that path take the format and the banlist?

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Post by Artaud » 6 months ago

If I remember correctly, no one played Flash before unbanning of Protean Hulk...

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Artaud wrote:
6 months ago
If I remember correctly, no one played Flash before unbanning of Protean Hulk...
Only cos griseldad's banned too ;)

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Post by MRHblue » 6 months ago

Artaud wrote:
6 months ago
If I remember correctly, no one played Flash before unbanning of Protean Hulk...
Are you saying you see social decks playing Flash now, or that cEDH didnt play it because Hulk was banned?

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Post by 75chan » 6 months ago

Wouldn't Dramatic Reversal be a better ban than Isochron Scepter? I never see that card, except imprinted on a Scepter, while I see value Scepter once in a while.

Anyways a Flash ban is probably fine since I've never seen it run without Hulk or Rector, and that seems to be most people's experiences (I've heard of people running it for value though, which makes sense even if it's uncommon)
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Post by NotMyOwlbear » 6 months ago

If a card is doing only harm by existing in the format, it should be reasonable to consider banning it to improve the overall health of the format.

The philosophy doc clearly establishes the primacy of casual, but there is no need for it to tie the RCs hands completely on this.

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Post by d0su » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
There is a reason that flash is banned in legacy/restricted in vintage and not protean hulk or griselbrand
Ah, but you see, those cards are restricted in EDH as well. ;)

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Post by Sinis » 6 months ago

Artaud wrote:
6 months ago
If I remember correctly, no one played Flash before unbanning of Protean Hulk...
I have played it casually for a long time in a non-degenerate way, alongside Scout's Warning, Leyline of Anticipation and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.

I like having instant speed creatures.

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Sinis wrote:
6 months ago

I have played it casually for a long time in a non-degenerate way, alongside Scout's Warning, Leyline of Anticipation and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.

I like having instant speed creatures.
There are about 200 decks out of 110000 that can play it on EDHrec, so I think this is a pretty rare thing. But it does give me pause, I'll admit.

I find myself vacillating, because I'm not sure that philosophically we should be banning any cards for power level if they aren't also high prevalence. Flash is only in <1% of decks it can be in on EDHrec (which skews competitive, supposedly), which is nowhere near the prevalence of Paradox Engine (which was close to 7% of *all decks on edhrec* not just blue).

It's definitely troubling to me the idea that any amount of competitive-only usage would cause even a handful of people to be upset at a card they like getting banned. I have not seen Flash cast in EDH that I can remember. So it's probably not impacting casual play much at all, so why do anything about it?

It's a tough situation.

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Post by MRHblue » 6 months ago

75chan wrote:
6 months ago
Wouldn't Dramatic Reversal be a better ban than Isochron Scepter? I never see that card, except imprinted on a Scepter, while I see value Scepter once in a while.
Goodness no. What ban criteria is Reversal part of? I play it in all kinds of casual decks, its good surprise and value.

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Post by onering » 6 months ago

Add to that that if reversal scepter became a big enough problem in casual, scepter should be the ban because it's the combo piece most likely to be broken again, the piece that enables the brokenness, and it also hits other criteria, such as repetitive play and locking people out.

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Post by Candlemane » 6 months ago

Here's how I lay it out:

If Flash/Hulk is making things run like the metas around Jund and Affinity, especially in metas as diverse as EDH/Commander can be, ban it with a colossus hammer (for reference, I'm only talking about banning Flash).
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Candlemane wrote:
6 months ago
Here's how I lay it out:

If Flash/Hulk is making things run like the metas around Jund and Affinity, especially in metas as diverse as EDH/Commander can be, ban it with a colossus hammer (for reference, I'm only talking about banning Flash).
Flash Hulk is basically a non-issue outside of "tuned EDH" - I have yet to see it cast personally.

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Post by Kajarak32 » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
Candlemane wrote:
6 months ago
Here's how I lay it out:

If Flash/Hulk is making things run like the metas around Jund and Affinity, especially in metas as diverse as EDH/Commander can be, ban it with a colossus hammer (for reference, I'm only talking about banning Flash).
Flash Hulk is basically a non-issue outside of "tuned EDH" - I have yet to see it cast personally.
Yes, that is the issue. Basically, is it worth it to ban Flash to better improve the quality of life for cEDH players, or is it best to leave it alone because it is a non-issue elsewhere. (Where the format and bans are.)

IMO, there is almost no reason not to ban it. It greatly improves the quality of life for cEDH players (I believe their community has reached as much of a consensus on this one card as I have ever seen any ever), and it would have a tiny impact on EDH as a whole. And honetly, if players are playing Flash without hulk (ie, in non-cEDH), then banning it would likely just improve their decks anyway... It's a win-win if you ask me.

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Post by MRHblue » 6 months ago

Kajarak32 wrote:
6 months ago
IMO, there is almost no reason not to ban it. It greatly improves the quality of life for cEDH players (I believe their community has reached as much of a consensus on this one card as I have ever seen any ever), and it would have a tiny impact on EDH as a whole. And honetly, if players are playing Flash without hulk (ie, in non-cEDH), then banning it would likely just improve their decks anyway... It's a win-win if you ask me.
I absolutely get your thought process here, but if one of the things everyone wants is strong and consistent guidelines as to whats banned, how would a Flash ban fold into that?

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Post by 75chan » 6 months ago

MRHblue wrote:
6 months ago
75chan wrote:
6 months ago
Wouldn't Dramatic Reversal be a better ban than Isochron Scepter? I never see that card, except imprinted on a Scepter, while I see value Scepter once in a while.
Goodness no. What ban criteria is Reversal part of? I play it in all kinds of casual decks, its good surprise and value.
One, allows players to win out of nowhere, just like with Isochron. Note that I don't think either should be banned or that it's even reasonable to ban one, but in a hypothetical scenario where the combo destroys casual banning the one that sees less play would seem like the reasonable choice. Maybe Dramatic Reversal do see play, I've just never seen it played without Scepter, ever, but I have seen the reverse.
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Post by 75chan » 6 months ago

Kajarak32 wrote:
6 months ago
pokken wrote:
6 months ago
Candlemane wrote:
6 months ago
Here's how I lay it out:

If Flash/Hulk is making things run like the metas around Jund and Affinity, especially in metas as diverse as EDH/Commander can be, ban it with a colossus hammer (for reference, I'm only talking about banning Flash).
Flash Hulk is basically a non-issue outside of "tuned EDH" - I have yet to see it cast personally.
Yes, that is the issue. Basically, is it worth it to ban Flash to better improve the quality of life for cEDH players, or is it best to leave it alone because it is a non-issue elsewhere. (Where the format and bans are.)

IMO, there is almost no reason not to ban it. It greatly improves the quality of life for cEDH players (I believe their community has reached as much of a consensus on this one card as I have ever seen any ever), and it would have a tiny impact on EDH as a whole. And honetly, if players are playing Flash without hulk (ie, in non-cEDH), then banning it would likely just improve their decks anyway... It's a win-win if you ask me.
I don't think Flash is a bad card. Hulk or Rector aren't the only things you can do with it, you can get some other ETB/death trigger for 2 mana and 2 cards at instant speed, which isn't a bad deal.
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

I have seen a decent amount of flash/rector for Ugin type stuff at other people's tables, but is that enough to prevent a ban?

I'm inclined to say that the rector for a planeswalker is fine magic. Rector for omniscience maybe less so, but what if someone's flashing rector in to get Skybind as their engine or something? I am pretty sure that happens.

How much fair use does there have to be before it's not OK to ban it? That's a question I am still not sure on myself.

Exactly how many people's fun can be impacted to improve an aspect of the game that is explicitly excluded from the mission?

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Post by NotMyOwlbear » 6 months ago

The idea that 1000 cEDH games should suffer so that 1 casual game may live can't be healthy.

If some element of the philosophy document is destroying more fun than it protects, is it really succeeding just because the victims play differently? Or should it be made slightly less absolute? Or preferably just interpreted in a less absolute way when the situation calls for it.

For what it's worth though, if flash starts cropping up in casual pods, before long I expect to see it do things like flashing in rector for omniscience, or doubling season to get a nasty planeswalker ult. If they pull that off right with holding priority, could be pretty bad news.

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

NotMyOwlbear wrote:
6 months ago
The idea that 1000 cEDH games should suffer so that 1 casual game may live can't be healthy.

If some element of the philosophy document is destroying more fun than it protects, is it really succeeding just because the victims play differently? Or should it be made slightly less absolute? Or preferably just interpreted in a less absolute way when the situation calls for it.

For what it's worth though, if flash starts cropping up in casual pods, before long I expect to see it do things like flashing in rector for omniscience, or doubling season to get a nasty planeswalker ult. If they pull that off right with holding priority, could be pretty bad news.
That was my quote, of course, and I am not sure it was right - was just how I have felt about it for a while because of how the philosophy document is worded. My instinct is still that allowing competitive end ("tuned") to dictate changes is a big risk on multiple fronts. It's largely how I feel about myself - I would never want the RC to make banning decisions to make life easier in my power level (my history of being anti-Paradox Engine was 100% play pattern related in more-casual-than-me metas, if you want to go there).

I think Flash is probably a small enough risk to warrant consideration but I think there is still some concern there.

I can think of a lot of examples of cards that ride close to Flash (Food Chain) in terms of being very lightly played in casual, and it makes me wonder where exactly we draw the line.

And more to the point, where casual players who come into the format thinking it's designed with a particular goal in mind fit into things. Is breaking their expectations (which have been backed up by words from the RC for a long time) fair?

Something you may find useful to know about me is that most of my decks tend hard toward the tuned or even borderline competitive side of the house. And I still don't think they should ban for me or to reinforce my style of play. This format is for people who play hard to work within the parameters of and it's really dangerous to start asking for changes.

There's a common accusation here of the slippery slope fallacy but the thing to remember is that this is not asking for a one time ban, this is asking for a change in the RC's philosophy on banning - the RC doesn't ban things without them aligning with their philosophy, so banning something out of band would necessitate an update there.

Once that philosophy changes the floodgates *are* opened whether we like it or not. cEDH players can start petitioning for bannings under whatever the new criteria is, and then we have to deal with that. Right now there is a straight up "get out of jail free" card in the criteria saying in essence, "we don't ban for competitive play." Change that, and everything changes.

So anyway that's some of why I am apprehensive about the ban - despite generally being on board with the reasoning. I do think it's potentially a big shift.

I realize the CEDH guys all think I don't think they are human or whatever -- I just worry about the much bigger group of humans who don't have any reason to think bannings for competitive reasons will ever happen, and operate on that assumption and have for a very long time.

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