[SCD] Flash

[NotMyOwlbear]

I am apprehensive about bans in general.

I have been playing EDH for a long time, very little of it cEDH. I never personally valued the absolute nature of the statements regarding competitive play. Maybe others have. I valued the type of games they seek to create, and the results of that, but I always saw it as more of a guideline. It seems hard to be absolute anyway, when competitiveness is a continuum.

If some kind of shift is necessary to the health of the format, or becomes necessary, it might not so bad if there is clarity that it is an action for the overall health of the format, i.e. this is good for the format as a whole, and yes cEDH players pointed it out, but we don't look to regulate competitive play in isolation, but rather evaluate the overall impact. Change will need to be done carefully, whatever it is.

You may find it interesting that I started playing cEDH only recently, once I realized that the cEDH players were largely reasonable enough. A large part of why I play cEDH is as a refuge from arms races, and the bad feelings they cause. When you know that everyone is playing at or near maximum power, in some ways it just makes it easier to put all that aside and focus on the game, and the social aspects.

My cEDH games are casual, given a sufficiently broad definition. They are also fun, interactive, sometimes memorable, social etc. When Flash shows up it becomes less so.

Maybe there is some solution or at least clarity that can come from recognizing the difference between casual competitive, and competitive as it exists in other formats.

[MRHblue]

If some element of the philosophy document is destroying more fun than it protects, is it really succeeding just because the victims play differently? Or should it be made slightly less absolute? Or preferably just interpreted in a less absolute way when the situation calls for it.

How would this be accomplished if we don't have the data to decide if its "destroying more fun"? And calling people having games ruined by Flash "victims" seems like trying to point the blame at the Philosophy or the RC. I am quite certain lots of people enjoyed Sundering Titan or Wordfire, that does not mean the Philosophy is bad for removing them from the format.

For what it's worth though, if flash starts cropping up in casual pods, before long I expect to see it do things like flashing in rector for omniscience, or doubling season to get a nasty planeswalker ult. If they pull that off right with holding priority, could be pretty bad news.

That actually seems like a pretty cool play. Multiple cards, cool interaction you had to wait for 'shields down', and now you have a great board without just killing everyone one the spot.

[NotMyOwlbear]

If some element of the philosophy document is destroying more fun than it protects, is it really succeeding just because the victims play differently? Or should it be made slightly less absolute? Or preferably just interpreted in a less absolute way when the situation calls for it.

How would this be accomplished if we don't have the data to decide if its "destroying more fun"? And calling people having games ruined by Flash "victims" seems like trying to point the blame at the Philosophy or the RC. I am quite certain lots of people enjoyed Sundering Titan or Wordfire, that does not mean the Philosophy is bad for removing them from the format.

For what it's worth though, if flash starts cropping up in casual pods, before long I expect to see it do things like flashing in rector for omniscience, or doubling season to get a nasty planeswalker ult. If they pull that off right with holding priority, could be pretty bad news.

That actually seems like a pretty cool play. Multiple cards, cool interaction you had to wait for 'shields down', and now you have a great board without just killing everyone one the spot.

We don't have a reliable source of data for anything with this format.

Overall the philosophy is good, but making it too absolute can have a cost, and that cost could be making some games less fun or interactive in this case.

I am inclined to agree that the example I gave sounds fun, but a lot of folks would wail at that play, so it kind of goes back to the idea of a continuum, and what the line is. How competitive is too competitive? You could say cEDH is the line, but then to stay within the lines the RC needs to be able to define cEDH. Better in my view to just admit the lines blur, and leave it to the RCs judgement, than to expect absolute compliance to every word of the philosophy.

TBH I am more worried that certain cards will be banned than I am about banning Flash.

[RedCheese]

Flash's ban is a precedent that it will cause if it would to happen. Other cards tht do see casual play might suffer due to thhis conflict between EDH casual and competitive.

[TearsOfTomorrow]

My issue is what I often refer to as "arms race": no matter how much they claim to be all about "casual play", it is a fact that people want to win. It's part of the human nature. And when a group is set up so that each player often plays the same people over and over, this desire to win will result in that person optimizing their deck week after week, which will push the other people to optimize their own decks, which in turn will push that person to optimize his deck even more. And with each iteration of this process, casual decks will be drawn to incorporating combos that work in cEDH, since combos are the only realistic way of winning: in a format with 120 HPs across the table and very oppressive control options, you're just not going to get things done by turning creatures sideways.

As a result of this reasoning, Paradox Engine ended up being in literally every deck in my meta before it got banned. Now, Flash Hulk does not have the potential for "just splash it in whatever deck and it will work" that PE has, but it's already starting to rear its head in more and more decks. So I'm worried that going forward blue and green might end up being the only two relevant colors.

[MRHblue]

My issue is what I often refer to as "arms race": no matter how much they claim to be all about "casual play", it is a fact that people want to win. It's part of the human nature. And when a group is set up so that each player often plays the same people over and over, this desire to win will result in that person optimizing their deck week after week, which will push the other people to optimize their own decks, which in turn will push that person to optimize his deck even more.

None of these are facts. A person I play with almost every week found a 3 card infinite combo in his deck. He started taking suggestions from the group as to which to replace, and what to replace it with. Not because there is anything wrong with infinite combos, but because we don't have a good time with them.

I have also been in groups that do 'arms race', but its not a given by any stretch.

[NotMyOwlbear]

My issue is what I often refer to as "arms race": no matter how much they claim to be all about "casual play", it is a fact that people want to win. It's part of the human nature. And when a group is set up so that each player often plays the same people over and over, this desire to win will result in that person optimizing their deck week after week, which will push the other people to optimize their own decks, which in turn will push that person to optimize his deck even more. And with each iteration of this process, casual decks will be drawn to incorporating combos that work in cEDH, since combos are the only realistic way of winning: in a format with 120 HPs across the table and very oppressive control options, you're just not going to get things done by turning creatures sideways.

As a result of this reasoning, Paradox Engine ended up being in literally every deck in my meta before it got banned. Now, Flash Hulk does not have the potential for "just splash it in whatever deck and it will work" that PE has, but it's already starting to rear its head in more and more decks. So I'm worried that going forward blue and green might end up being the only two relevant colors.

If it does rear its head enough and in ugly ways, I would expect it to banned eventually like PE. In many contexts flash is much nastier, the kind of thing that belongs in vintage only.

And yeah, competitive EDH is a kind of casual play, so the us vs. them mentality that sometimes emerges kind of falls flat.

[pokken]

Flash rector is vulnerable to removal on the thing rectored and also by graveyard hate on the rector. Fair play in my opinion.

Flash Rector is a fairly common mid-powered play and something I think would be a definitely loss in removing flash from the format.

[NotMyOwlbear]

Flash rector is vulnerable to removal on the thing rectored and also by graveyard hate on the rector. Fair play in my opinion.

Flash Rector is a fairly common mid-powered play and something I think would be a definitely loss in removing flash from the format.

I haven't seen it played, but much of this is subjective.

I don't expect flash to get banned unless some form of flash hulk becomes a thing in casual pods, which is unlikely, though more likely than it was with all the talk about it these days.

At the end of the day we have a disagreement over how to use the philosophy document, though (probably) relatively little disagreement about the desired end result.

Personally, I am OK if they ban flash, and OK if they don't. There is a long list of other cards that would frustrate me if banned, but for now I will trust them not to go too far.

[onering]

Even with Flash/Hulk, its gotta be Flash/Hulk ftw rather than Flash/Hulk for value to get it banned,

[NotMyOwlbear]

Even with Flash/Hulk, its gotta be Flash/Hulk ftw rather than Flash/Hulk for value to get it banned,

Yeah, most likely. I would be pleasantly surprised if they banned it anyway, but the arguments and counter arguments to that are just circular at this point.

In my mind forms of flash hulk meant the hulk piles you see in cEDH, I should have been clearer on that. I could see one day someone putting a Leonin relic warder pile into a non-cEDH deck, but would be rare to see.

Disagreement on Flash aside, I am relatively happy for the RC to stay the course. I would like to find another way to let people play what they want, but that is a can of worms for another thread.

[Styrofoam]

Even with Flash/Hulk, its gotta be Flash/Hulk ftw rather than Flash/Hulk for value to get it banned,

if people are flash hulking for value on turn 2, that game is likely over on turn 2, but it will play out to turn 15 or 16 before it actually ends.

[MRHblue]

Board wipes dont exist?

[pokken]

I won a game with protean hulk tonight. cast him off the top with experimental frenzy, then sac'd him with high market, then got pathbreaker ibex, then cast mystical tutor off the top for splendid reclamation which I then cast off the top making 7 rampaging baloth tokens and swinging for lethal to the board.

Fair as fair gets. Turn 13 or something, experimental frenzy on board for 2 turns.

[Cow31337Killer]

I agree with some of the earlier points made in this thread, but I'd say a Flash ban is much more justified than a Hulk ban. Protean Hulk has immense potential for fair, unique, and just plain fun interactions in a casual environment. Flash has much less potential for such things, and by its nature encourages a non-interactive style of play which, in my opinion, ruins the spirit of both regular and competitive EDH. If one of them has to go, the choice seems pretty clear.

[Artaud]

I agree with some of the earlier points made in this thread, but I'd say a Flash ban is much more justified than a Hulk ban. Protean Hulk has immense potential for fair, unique, and just plain fun interactions in a casual environment. Flash has much less potential for such things, and by its nature encourages a non-interactive style of play which, in my opinion, ruins the spirit of both regular and competitive EDH. If one of them has to go, the choice seems pretty clear.

I think it's rather another way around. It's Hulk that enables all sorts of combos, not Flash. I can see Flash being paired with cards like Bane of Progress, Havoc Demon or Palinchron to give players instant answer at the cost of card disadvantage while Hulk will ALWAYS lead to combo plays whether it's flashed in, reanimated or cheated into battlefield some other way. Without Hulk Flash is just gimmick card and only Hulk makes it powerhouse.

[RxPhantom]

I don't think a Flash ban is justified at all. EDH is a format of, among many other things, niche cards. I run Flash in just a single deck that revolves around getting value out of creatures' death triggers. I have no other application for it, and would be sad to lose it just because the cEDH crowd wants it gone.

cEDH needs its own stewards and its own banlist. Are there any other offshoots or stratifications of this format that we discuss in the same manner as cEDH? Do the filthy casuals or 75%-ers constantly call for the RC to ban things, or to otherwise cater to them?

[ISBPathfinder]

There are fair ways to run Flash (assuming it ever feels fair). But realistically, I see very little downside in banning it as its hardly a card that people often run. My issue is more with consistency of the banned list that I would argue against banning Flash. If you were to consider banning Flash then why not the next combo enabler? I have no personal care if it is removed but whatever is done I want consistency in the banned list.

So, ultimately I guess I would be against banning Flash because I don't feel that there would be consistency in just banning it.

[MRHblue]

I agree with some of the earlier points made in this thread, but I'd say a Flash ban is much more justified than a Hulk ban. Protean Hulk has immense potential for fair, unique, and just plain fun interactions in a casual environment. Flash has much less potential for such things, and by its nature encourages a non-interactive style of play which, in my opinion, ruins the spirit of both regular and competitive EDH. If one of them has to go, the choice seems pretty clear.

Except flash isnt played, so how could you justify that ban? Hulk gets played, for value or for combo at mana appropriate times (YMMV). That ban would have the worse impact on 'traditional' EDH while having the exact same impact on cEDH.

But we do agree the choice is clear.

[cryogen]

There are fair ways to run Flash (assuming it ever feels fair). But realistically, I see very little downside in banning it as its hardly a card that people often run. My issue is more with consistency of the banned list that I would argue against banning Flash. If you were to consider banning Flash then why not the next combo enabler? I have no personal care if it is removed but whatever is done I want consistency in the banned list.

So, ultimately I guess I would be against banning Flash because I don't feel that there would be consistency in just banning it.

While I disagree with the overall premise that there can be "consistency" to the ban list (beyond consistently applying the overall philosophy to the ban list), I agree that banning Flash to appease the cEDH group is not a wise decision if the card is not negatively impacting "regular" Commander games. The reason is basically the same as why we don't ban fast mana and tutors, even though doing this would have a negligible impact overall on the format.

It's not so much that the format and Rules Committee can't manage a single ban list which is beneficial to both groups of players, it's that they shouldn't.

[ISBPathfinder]

There are fair ways to run Flash (assuming it ever feels fair). But realistically, I see very little downside in banning it as its hardly a card that people often run. My issue is more with consistency of the banned list that I would argue against banning Flash. If you were to consider banning Flash then why not the next combo enabler? I have no personal care if it is removed but whatever is done I want consistency in the banned list.

So, ultimately I guess I would be against banning Flash because I don't feel that there would be consistency in just banning it.

While I disagree with the overall premise that there can be "consistency" to the ban list (beyond consistently applying the overall philosophy to the ban list), I agree that banning Flash to appease the cEDH group is not a wise decision if the card is not negatively impacting "regular" Commander games. The reason is basically the same as why we don't ban fast mana and tutors, even though doing this would have a negligible impact overall on the format.

It's not so much that the format and Rules Committee can't manage a single ban list which is beneficial to both groups of players, it's that they shouldn't.

There can be consistency in a banned list but not having data does make it harder for commander. I am fine if Flash goes away, but then there is the question of the next best combo card enabler. At what point are you looking at Ad Nausium, Doomsday, Food Chain, etc. I don't play cEDH or follow so I am not the best on this front but my question is just where to stop. I also don't know how much of an outlier Flash is and how much of it just being just one of the best using some of the best colors.

I am not against banning flash, my question is just questioning the consistency of unbanning it. We unbanned worldgorger and Painter's Servant and even though I have never played with or against those cards I was for unbanning them because it made the banned list more consistent.

[cryogen]

There are fair ways to run Flash (assuming it ever feels fair). But realistically, I see very little downside in banning it as its hardly a card that people often run. My issue is more with consistency of the banned list that I would argue against banning Flash. If you were to consider banning Flash then why not the next combo enabler? I have no personal care if it is removed but whatever is done I want consistency in the banned list.

So, ultimately I guess I would be against banning Flash because I don't feel that there would be consistency in just banning it.

While I disagree with the overall premise that there can be "consistency" to the ban list (beyond consistently applying the overall philosophy to the ban list), I agree that banning Flash to appease the cEDH group is not a wise decision if the card is not negatively impacting "regular" Commander games. The reason is basically the same as why we don't ban fast mana and tutors, even though doing this would have a negligible impact overall on the format.

It's not so much that the format and Rules Committee can't manage a single ban list which is beneficial to both groups of players, it's that they shouldn't.

There can be consistency in a banned list but not having data does make it harder for commander. I am fine if Flash goes away, but then there is the question of the next best combo card enabler. At what point are you looking at Ad Nausium, Doomsday, Food Chain, etc. I don't play cEDH or follow so I am not the best on this front but my question is just where to stop. I also don't know how much of an outlier Flash is and how much of it just being just one of the best using some of the best colors.

I am not against banning flash, my question is just questioning the consistency of unbanning it. We unbanned worldgorger and Painter's Servant and even though I have never played with or against those cards I was for unbanning them because it made the banned list more consistent.

Finding the next best combo isn't the issue here, that is an issue for regular Commander where someone is trying to break it while the other players are not. In cEDH, everyone is trying to break the format.

It's the same argument as banning fast mana and tutors where "the next best thing" isn't all that great. If you can't play Demonic Tutor and only have Diabolic Tutor, the format slows down and can be more diverse. The complaint about Flash is that it was SO good that it pushed diversity out of the field. Doomsday, Food Chain, Blood Pod, etc. are all very good but they are also slower to develop and more susceptible to disruption. Flash was none of those things.

[ISBPathfinder]

Finding the next best combo isn't the issue here, that is an issue for regular Commander where someone is trying to break it while the other players are not. In cEDH, everyone is trying to break the format.

It's the same argument as banning fast mana and tutors where "the next best thing" isn't all that great. If you can't play Demonic Tutor and only have Diabolic Tutor, the format slows down and can be more diverse. The complaint about Flash is that it was SO good that it pushed diversity out of the field. Doomsday, Food Chain, Blood Pod, etc. are all very good but they are also slower to develop and more susceptible to disruption. Flash was none of those things.

If its significantly better then I suppose I am ok with banning it. I just don't follow cEDH enough to know the variance between the top combos.

[cryogen]

Finding the next best combo isn't the issue here, that is an issue for regular Commander where someone is trying to break it while the other players are not. In cEDH, everyone is trying to break the format.

It's the same argument as banning fast mana and tutors where "the next best thing" isn't all that great. If you can't play Demonic Tutor and only have Diabolic Tutor, the format slows down and can be more diverse. The complaint about Flash is that it was SO good that it pushed diversity out of the field. Doomsday, Food Chain, Blood Pod, etc. are all very good but they are also slower to develop and more susceptible to disruption. Flash was none of those things.

If its significantly better then I suppose I am ok with banning it. I just don't follow cEDH enough to know the variance between the top combos.

Pretty much everyone I've talked with that played cEDH says that it dominates the field.

[onering]

Maybe there's another option. I don't like the idea of a separate banlist for cEDH, but I also don't like the idea of banning a card because of cEDH.

Maybe cEDH needs to come into its own a little more and be able to have its own rules to an extent, including an extremely limited additional banlist with extremely stringent criteria for banning. If Flash is actually that big an issue in cEDH to the point where it is so stifling to diversity that even the cEDH crowd, who have a strong tolerance for low meta game diversity, are complaining, then that could be a workable threshold on which to base a supplemental ban list. Introduce a supplemental cEDH banlist with Flash as the only card on in, and have the criteria for banning be that it has to have a stifling impact on the format at least as severe as Flash. I don't suspect the list would grow much beyond flash, and flash might be the lonely bastard on it for a long time. Beyond dealing with Flash I think this could accomplish a couple of different goals. It could define rules for sideboards and when cards can be side boarded in and out, and it could standardize competitive play variants (points, 1v1, etc). It could also outline the general philosophy for cEDH, which I think would be beneficial for drawing in new players as I think a lot of casuals don't really understand the draw of cEDH or how cEDH games, despite being skill testing matches with narrow margins for error, are often pretty relaxed casual affairs (casual in the sense of just a game between friends that means nothing).