[SCD] Sol Ring

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

umtiger wrote:
4 years ago
Even in a 40 life format, cheap cards are still better. Just having 40 life isn't enough to help someone cast expensive cards. Besides, 40 life is not some unassailable barrier. Even low power decks can deal +40 damage by turn 6 with one straight forward, scaling threat like Pathbreaker Ibex.
You are incorrect about this. Having 40 life and multiple opponents is absolutely enough to help someone cast expensive spells. As evidence, I point to this entire format. And no, cheap cards are not just better. I mean, obviously if you take identical rules text and slice a couple mana off the cost, the card is strictly better. But that's not our decision, that's up to the people designing the cards, and the cards are designed in such a way that more expensive spells are more powerful, beyond even proportionality. A single well designed 6-drop is worth more on the field than 6 1-drops. I'm sure you understand this, you're talking about Pathbreaker Ibex. A threat that costs more comes down later, but most likely deals as much damage in the first 2 turns on the field than cheaper threats have with all of their head start. In other formats, you don't see many Pathbreaker Ibex type cards being played because the smaller threats are capable of killing people, a card dealing more damage than them is overkill that doesn't do anything. But when it takes 120 damage to kill a field of opponents, it's not longer overkill. Yes, people playing dragons compete with people playing lower cmc things. I really don't know what format you think you're talking about.

If you look at all of the decks where people are trying to T3-T4 each other, they are chock full of cheap cards, not expensive ones. They would play many, many, many more Deathrite Shamans and cards like it before playing their one Sylvan Primordial. Just having 40 life isn't enough to help someone cast expensive cards.
Yay! Me too. But you can also lay off of the people who choose not to make the same choice. And not paint them all as "anti-social," win at all costs-type of people who are out to ruin anyone's experience.
I did not do that. You are the only person in this thread calling things "anti-social". As an aside, please don't put things in quotes that aren't actually quotes, that's just a fast track to misunderstanding. What I said was "Your joy at playing things out ahead of when you're supposed to is neither the joy of socializing nor the thrill of competition." That's not saying it's anti-social to play Sol Ring, just that it isn't enhancing the social experience. Playing Sol Ring has about as much effect on the social aspect of commander as what color shoes you're wearing. That doesn't make it anti-social, but if you're having more fun because of turn 1 Sol Ring, it isn't because you've made the experience explicitly more pleasant for your opponents.
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

When you think the Sol Ring arguments have finally died but then someone posts another one

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

Remember to be respectful of one another as you further this discussion. Several of the comments in this thread have been borderline Trolling/Flaming, and I'd hate to close down this thread since it raises some interesting points about Commander's structure and limitations!
On a separate note, I think it's unlikely that they'll ever ban Sol Ring because of how synonymous it is with this format. Wizards has straight up printed it and included it in their product, so I HIGHLY doubt that Wizards will bow to the unofficial, no-financial-investment-in-WOTC-and-no-legal-bearing-to-WOTC group of people who regulate the format, and stop printing Sol Rings for Commander products because the RC and CAG decide to ban it. At this point, the market expectations for Commander products will most likely preclude any type of banning of Sol Ring specifically.

Are the merits of it being banned worthwhile? Absolutely. Fast mana and cheap tutors are what "break" this format and make it more akin to a singleton Vintage format, from a casual-ish standpoint. I personally prefer the ability to toggle between what types of decks I play with so that I can create a specific type of game. Looking to jam a large volume of games with interesting interactions and complex gamestates? Play some cEDH. Looking to invest time and energy into a true social experience with interesting interactions and complex gamestates? Play some High-Power. In each of these cases, Sol Ring can "unfairly" accelerate a single individual at the expense of the other players and that imbalance is what creates frustration and a feel-bad experience. No one likes to get outshone and diminished in importance because one of their opponents was able to execute their strategy faster, and Sol Ring and its ilk DO contribute to that.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

In fairness, crudeness aside, he's not wrong. I don't think anybody actually changed their stance in the thread, at least not that I recall from my cursory skimming of new posts when they happen. It's a very polarising card, and you tend to be quite set in your view about it. Personally I like it - part of the format's allure to me is that you can combine overpowered nonsense like this with various jank that fits your commander's shell. Makes the whole thing feel very casual somehow.
 
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I've flipflopped on the fast mana issue a bunch of times personally. I'm kinda around to the idea that it's basically wrong to not be playing green in CEDH for the most part, but there are a few decks that work without it and banning sol ring and crypt (which, let's face it: slippery slope argument aside you can't ban one without the other fairly) kills those decks dead.

In normal EDH, green decks are even more dominant than in competitive, because their ramp strategy is quite a bit cheaper money-wise.

Birds of Paradise and wild growth are already a just-below-the-radar problem. Let's not make it worse.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

(I was given a warning to not post memes and to be more "productive" in this thread so here goes nothing)
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
In normal EDH, green decks are even more dominant than in competitive, because their ramp strategy is quite a bit cheaper money-wise.

Birds of Paradise and wild growth are already a just-below-the-radar problem. Let's not make it worse.
I've never really understood the argument that green decks become "too good" if Sol Ring|CMD is banned for two main reasons:

1. Green decks can (and do) play Sol Ring|CMD too, so any advantage it gives to other decks it also gives to green. If you think turn one Llanowar Elves|M11 into turn two Rampant Growth|M12 is "overpowered" imagine how much worse it gets if you throw a Sol Ring|CMD into the mix.

2. There are tons of other options for ramp for non-green decks outside of Sol Ring|CMD. I swear sometimes people act like it's the only good mana rock ever printed and taking it away means no other decks outside of green will have any way to ramp. That's just not the case.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago

I've never really understood the argument that green decks become "too good" if Sol Ring|CMD is banned for two main reasons:

1. Green decks can (and do) play Sol Ring|CMD too, so any advantage it gives to other decks it also gives to green. If you think turn one Llanowar Elves|M11 into turn two Rampant Growth|M12 is "overpowered" imagine how much worse it gets if you throw a Sol Ring|CMD into the mix.
For a simple thought experiment:
You cannot afford any new shirts.
You have five shirts and you need to wear a different one to work each day. One of your shirts is short-sleeved.
Your friend has 15 shirts, of which one is short-sleeved.
Your company bans short-sleeved shirts.

Who feels the rule change more?
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
2. There are tons of other options for ramp for non-green decks outside of Sol Ring|CMD. I swear sometimes people act like it's the only good mana rock ever printed and taking it away means no other decks outside of green will have any way to ramp. That's just not the case.
It is one of an elite club of 6 playable turn 1 ramp options outside of green (if you really stretch and include Lotus Petal). At most 9 if you include ancient tomb and city of traitors and crystal vein.

The difference between turn 1 and turn 2 ramp is substantial.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago

I've never really understood the argument that green decks become "too good" if Sol Ring|CMD is banned for two main reasons:

1. Green decks can (and do) play Sol Ring|CMD too, so any advantage it gives to other decks it also gives to green. If you think turn one Llanowar Elves|M11 into turn two Rampant Growth|M12 is "overpowered" imagine how much worse it gets if you throw a Sol Ring|CMD into the mix.
For a simple thought experiment:
You cannot afford any new shirts.
You have five shirts and you need to wear a different one to work each day. One of your shirts is short-sleeved.
Your friend has 15 shirts, of which one is short-sleeved.
Your company bans short-sleeved shirts.

Who feels the rule change more?
Thanks Professor. Did you think that one up all by yourself?
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
2. There are tons of other options for ramp for non-green decks outside of Sol Ring|CMD. I swear sometimes people act like it's the only good mana rock ever printed and taking it away means no other decks outside of green will have any way to ramp. That's just not the case.
It is one of an elite club of 6 playable turn 1 ramp options outside of green (if you really stretch and include Lotus Petal). At most 9 if you include ancient tomb and city of traitors and crystal vein.

The difference between turn 1 and turn 2 ramp is substantial.
Here is a link to a website called Scryfall.

https://scryfall.com/advanced

It's a great site where you can find all sorts of mana rocks and other artifacts besides Sol Ring|CMD to help your non-green decks play faster. I recommend you take a look at it sometime.
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
In fairness, crudeness aside, he's not wrong. I don't think anybody actually changed their stance in the thread, at least not that I recall from my cursory skimming of new posts when they happen. It's a very polarising card, and you tend to be quite set in your view about it. Personally I like it - part of the format's allure to me is that you can combine overpowered nonsense like this with various jank that fits your commander's shell. Makes the whole thing feel very casual somehow.
Even if not a single person changes their stance overall, I would consider this a productive discussion if the end result is the same stalemate but with better arguments. I don't think I could be convinced through argument that the format is better with Sol Ring, that just completely contradicts my own experience. It'd be wrong of me to deny anyone else their own experience. But if I can help make a world where nobody ever says "Sol Ring is fair because it's a bad top deck late game", count me in, because that's just bad analysis.
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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

I have a somewhat mixed opinion on Sol Ring. On one hand, it's clearly an extremely powerful (and broken) card. There are certainly games I have participated in in which a player effectively wins the game on turn 3 because their opening hand contained a giant pile of fast mana, usually starting with Sol Ring.

On the other hand, I've grown to appreciate the variance inherent to the format. We're playing 100 card singleton, which is specifically meant to enhance variance. Some opening hands are going to be stronger than others, and since Sol Ring can go in any deck, there is an equal chance for each player to get to a fast start from it. In this sense, it would arguably be more problematic if it were only available in one color. I actually think that it being printed in every preconstructed deck is a benefit in this case - while some cards were banned in the past due to Perceived Barrier to Entry, Sol Ring has the opposite situation - everyone that has ever bought a precon deck owns a copy. I don't believe it is healthy for a card to be in 75% of all decks, but it is good that everyone at least has the option to decide.

Sol Ring also enables some other interesting interactions - Thada Adel, Acquisitor and Trinket Mage would both be significantly worse without it in the format, for example.

....on the other hand, while I find myself somewhat accepting of Sol Ring, I strongly dislike the presence of Mana Crypt and Mana Vault in the format, primarily due to barrier to entry reasons.

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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago

I've never really understood the argument that green decks become "too good" if Sol Ring|CMD is banned for two main reasons:

1. Green decks can (and do) play Sol Ring|CMD too, so any advantage it gives to other decks it also gives to green. If you think turn one Llanowar Elves|M11 into turn two Rampant Growth|M12 is "overpowered" imagine how much worse it gets if you throw a Sol Ring|CMD into the mix.
For a simple thought experiment:
You cannot afford any new shirts.
You have five shirts and you need to wear a different one to work each day. One of your shirts is short-sleeved.
Your friend has 15 shirts, of which one is short-sleeved.
Your company bans short-sleeved shirts.

Who feels the rule change more?
This thought experiment assumes ramp to be the be-all and end-all answer and only available win condition in Commander. It is a very viable strategy, but thanks to reasonably costet artifacts like Worn Powerstone, Commander's Sphere, etc. the other colors can do it too. Your arbitrary numbers try to depict a shortage of options of the non-green guy that just isn't there. Sure, green's options are either faster (dorks) or more resilient (land ramp) and more numerous (they get artifacts too) but it just doesn't compare to blue's dogmatic stranglehold of meaningful stack interaction
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
2. There are tons of other options for ramp for non-green decks outside of Sol Ring|CMD. I swear sometimes people act like it's the only good mana rock ever printed and taking it away means no other decks outside of green will have any way to ramp. That's just not the case.
It is one of an elite club of 6 playable turn 1 ramp options outside of green (if you really stretch and include Lotus Petal). At most 9 if you include ancient tomb and city of traitors and crystal vein.

The difference between turn 1 and turn 2 ramp is substantial.
Is turn 1 ramp really that important/prominent outside of cEDH? Because in my playgroup, the likes of Birds of Paradise and Wild Growth are the absolute exception. My experience is totally anecdotal, that's why I'm asking.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago

I've never really understood the argument that green decks become "too good" if Sol Ring|CMD is banned for two main reasons:

1. Green decks can (and do) play Sol Ring|CMD too, so any advantage it gives to other decks it also gives to green. If you think turn one Llanowar Elves|M11 into turn two Rampant Growth|M12 is "overpowered" imagine how much worse it gets if you throw a Sol Ring|CMD into the mix.
For a simple thought experiment:
You cannot afford any new shirts.
You have five shirts and you need to wear a different one to work each day. One of your shirts is short-sleeved.
Your friend has 15 shirts, of which one is short-sleeved.
Your company bans short-sleeved shirts.

Who feels the rule change more?
This thought experiment assumes ramp to be the be-all and end-all answer and only available win condition in Commander. It is a very viable strategy, but thanks to reasonably costet artifacts like Worn Powerstone, Commander's Sphere, etc. the other colors can do it too. Your arbitrary numbers try to depict a shortage of options of the non-green guy that just isn't there. Sure, green's options are either faster (dorks) or more resilient (land ramp) and more numerous (they get artifacts too) but it just doesn't compare to blue's dogmatic stranglehold of meaningful stack interaction
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
2. There are tons of other options for ramp for non-green decks outside of Sol Ring|CMD. I swear sometimes people act like it's the only good mana rock ever printed and taking it away means no other decks outside of green will have any way to ramp. That's just not the case.
It is one of an elite club of 6 playable turn 1 ramp options outside of green (if you really stretch and include Lotus Petal). At most 9 if you include ancient tomb and city of traitors and crystal vein.

The difference between turn 1 and turn 2 ramp is substantial.
Is turn 1 ramp really that important/prominent outside of cEDH? Because in my playgroup, the likes of Birds of Paradise and Wild Growth are the absolute exception. My experience is totally anecdotal, that's why I'm asking.
Yes, but who is a bigger threat and can do more things, the person at 4 mana or the person at 2 mana? Sol Ring gives you access to 4 mana on turn two, while your opponents probably have 1, maybe 2 mana. Green having access to ramp gives them even more options for getting ahead, while your comparison to blue forces them to have a counterspell in their opening hand and they still can't play it most likely until the green player has had 2 or 3 turns, giving green a huge advantage.

You're also comparing one mana ramp (bad for the format) with three mana ramp (mediocre and just fine).
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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Yes, but who is a bigger threat and can do more things, the person at 4 mana or the person at 2 mana? Sol Ring gives you access to 4 mana on turn two, while your opponents probably have 1, maybe 2 mana. Green having access to ramp gives them even more options for getting ahead, while your comparison to blue forces them to have a counterspell in their opening hand and they still can't play it most likely until the green player has had 2 or 3 turns, giving green a huge advantage.

You're also comparing one mana ramp (bad for the format) with three mana ramp (mediocre and just fine).
I wasn't talking about the scenario of counterspells versus ramped threats. I talked about non-green colors having access to ramp. Worse? Yes, strictly so, but the option is there. Whereas, if you want stack interaction, you have to go blue or go home. Besides, how is having to have a Counterspell in the opening hand an argument? Is it somehow not true for having to have ramp in the opening hand as well? Or is there some nuance I'm not getting?

And I (and my playgroup to an extend) was not aware how important turn 1 ramp is outside of really competitive games. However, doesn't the importance of that one turn difference to mana rocks (most of which effectively cost only 1 mana by tapping immediately) make Sol Ring and Mana Crypt even worse offenders, given that they put you two turns ahead instead of one?

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

The general balance with rocks vs dorks is that dorks are more vulnerable to removal but are more consistent because they're more available (there are just more of them). The best rocks are faster but so few you can't really count on one (or are card disadvantage as well, or can't untap, etc.)

It's pretty weird how sol ring and crypt are in a way both good for competitive and not. If you cut sol ring and crypt cedh is dead for nongreen decks. Period full stop. Maybe urza sticks around.

In noncompetitive, at the 75% area of the spectrum I think a lot of strategies don't work without those extra pieces of early ramp. In terms of variety anyway. And those metas tend to have more sweepers and ways to prolong the game that allow recovery from turn one crypt starts.

I don't dispute that the swinginess of crypt and sol ring is a bad for.gameplay in some respects. But they definitely increase variety of decks.

Regarding turn one ramp in less competitive metas - its primarily of high importance on 7+ on the scale or so. But it really helps combat the strong starts of green decks that ramp on both 2 and 4 and then happen to be in the colors to blow up or disable rocks.

If you're playing against a mana dork or exploration deck you're gonna really have a bad game playing signets and coalition relic.

The more ramp options the more diverse your decks are period. Fewer artifact ramp means green is better. And that is a problem because it's already the best color for the most part.

What I think would be ideal is a suite of balanced aggressive rocks. Things like 1 cmc mox diamond, chrome mox. More stuff like mox amber and the suspend mox. 1 cmc mana Myrs with a drawback (e.g. they damage you every time). More ways to ramp in the other colors like dockside and.smothering tithe and as foretold.

If the only real alternatives weren't 400 bucks worth of busted rocks I think I'd be amenable to banning sol and crypt.

But for now I think it would hurt diversity more than help gameplay. That has born out in my experience.

For the years we had sol ring banned in my old playgroup almost everyone played green. Except the few who started getting mana crypts and mox diamonds.

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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
In noncompetitive, at the 75% area of the spectrum I think a lot of strategies don't work without those extra pieces of early ramp. In terms of variety anyway. And those metas tend to have more sweepers and ways to prolong the game that allow recovery from turn one crypt starts.
If a deck relies on having one of two specific cards out of 99 available in the first two turns so much that it "falls apart" otherwise it 100% deserves to.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Regarding turn one ramp in less competitive metas - its primarily of high importance on 7+ on the scale or so. But it really helps combat the strong starts of green decks that ramp on both 2 and 4 and then happen to be in the colors to blow up or disable rocks.
Of course it feels nice to invest one card at a "cost" of -1 mana (or -2 in case of Mana Crypt) and instantly catch up with the guy who invested two cards and ~6 mana. But there are two sides to every story. There are the cases where the latter player drops a Sol Ring, foregoes the likes of Rampant Groth entirely for a turn 2 Explosive Vegetation and suddenly has more mana available than the rest of the table combined. I don't know where that notion is coming from that dedicated ramp decks somehow magically don't take a significant hit to the groin when the two cards that do best what their entire deck is geared for, are gone.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
If you're playing against a mana dork or exploration deck you're gonna really have a bad game playing signets and coalition relic.
Not really, no. At least not nearly as much as going last and have one or two opponents drop Ring and/or Crypt, making me completely irrelevant until the late game, which it often doesn't even come to. And that can happan against any given deck, not only the dork/exploration ones that are built specifically to do exactly this.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

The point is that no one gets explosive starts much at all without sol ring/crypt, because the critical mass of cards that allows it to happen frequently enough to plan around is gone.

It's pretty much this list-- With some exceptional decks playing additional pieces (e.g. Crystal Vein/City of Traitors/Lotus Petal) that their strategy can support. Without two of those cards your turn 1 ramp volume is reduced to essentially 4 cards, which means it's a nice treat instead of something you can design around.

Yes, those starts are powerful. But they're a lot less *reliable* than;
(although most decks can't play all of the multicolor guys they're going to get some of them; and some can play exploration/burgeoning as well).

So if you ban sol ring/crypt you've basically said: Instead of everyone getting the opportunity to have explosive starts, and Green being able to do it very consistently, now no one gets explosive starts except green (except very randomly, not enough to build a strategy around).

Yeah, banning the crypt/ring hurts green. But nowhere near as much as it hurts other colors.

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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
It's pretty much this list--
Mana Vault is more of a ritual than ramp. And the other cards are leagues below Ring and Crypt, which is the point of this thread. Ring and Crypt are just too good at what they do. Unless you deliberately want to build a worse deck for whatever reason, you're going to start with your Commander, add Sol Ring, and proceed with the rest. Mana Crypt would be as omnipresent if it weren't for its considerable price tag.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Yes, those starts are powerful. But they're a lot less *reliable* than;
Mana dorks have distinct pros an cons compared to signets. They are more likely to "die to removal" (especially sweepers) and sometimes don't even cost less, given their summoning sickness, all for the ability to potentially come out on the very first turn. Growth and its cousin Utopia Sprawl are almost always superior to signets though. Exploration and Burgeoning are slightly different. They offer a higher payoff, but at the cost of considerably more hand cards and deck slots to reliably hit enough land drops early game. Is their payoff still too good? Maybe. But that should be debated/decided in another Thread.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
So if you ban sol ring/crypt you've basically said: Instead of everyone getting the opportunity to have explosive starts, and Green being able to do it very consistently, now no one gets explosive starts except green (except very randomly, not enough to build a strategy around).
How is this a bad thing? If you stuff your deck with mana dorks and as much early ramp as possible, you know what you're trying to do. Just as much as someone who plays Hermit Druid and no basics. That is the very example of the player being the problem and not the card(s). Then there are Ring and Crypt, which are among the best, if not the actual best cards of the format. Running them in your deck has no opportunity cost, playing them nets you mana instead of costing it, so for the investment of a hand card you're now two turns ahead of everyone else. It may not always be a problem to the game as a whole, but it still occasionally ruins games. Something Hermit Druid can't do at a realistically probable rate with an average basic land count.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I think it's a matter of opinion whether you think it's good or bad to have only one color able to have explosive starts - but it's a demonstrable fact (with a few exceptions, commanders like Urza can still have crazy starts off a signet).

My opinion is that the format would be a lot more boring with everyone on signet-speed except green. I enjoy the variety that comes from busted starts happening. It's a thing I like about the format.

Edit: I do think that it would be better if ring/crypt/diamond/chrome mox were not positive mana. But I think it's highly likely it would be worse for them not to exist than to be overpowered (as they are).

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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

So I haven't read all the arguments in this thread or all the points that have been brought up, but I have to say - Sol Ring is not banworthy. Sure, it lets you play bigger stuff faster, but honestly it's one card of 99, and as a late game draw it's dead.
Beyond that, I have to completely disagree with the OP insinuation that deckbuilding is 98+SR. I don't play SR in my mono-green deck because I would rather run dorks that make green mana. There is not a definite must-include of sol ring in any deck.
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
4 years ago
But if I can help make a world where nobody ever says "Sol Ring is fair because it's a bad top deck late game", count me in, because that's just bad analysis.
Skello496 wrote:
4 years ago
Sure, it lets you play bigger stuff faster, but honestly it's one card of 99, and as a late game draw it's dead.
MENDOZAAAAAA!

Sol Ring replaces a land. It's still almost universally better to draw late than the land it replaced. And way, way better than the mana dorks you're talking about.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I won a game the other day where I drew a sol ring that got me to combo mana on turn 8, I'm anti-banning for sol ring but the argument that it's a bad topdeck is nonsense. :)

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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

When it comes down to it, my biggest issue is that people claim Sol Ring is a must-include. My Nylea deck is crazy good and doesn't use Sol Ring, and honestly all of my decks would be almost as good without Sol Ring. Sure, it's super nice being able to get that down T1, but it's not making my deck that much worse to not run it. Fast mana isn't a problem in EDH. We're playing 7-10 drop spells consistently, and they just allow for us to get to those spells 5 minutes earlier when we draw them. It's one out of 99 cards, and one card doesn't usually break a deck if the deck isn't built around it. Cards that break decks are things like Paradox Engine, not things like Sol Ring.
EDH:
Krenko, Goblin Stampeder
Nylea, God of Hydra Counters G
Mahadi, Emporium Master rb
Feather, Catrips Redeemed wr
Ghired, The Tokened gwr

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Skello496 wrote:
4 years ago
When it comes down to it, my biggest issue is that people claim Sol Ring is a must-include. My Nylea deck is crazy good and doesn't use Sol Ring, and honestly all of my decks would be almost as good without Sol Ring. Sure, it's super nice being able to get that down T1, but it's not making my deck that much worse to not run it. Fast mana isn't a problem in EDH. We're playing 7-10 drop spells consistently, and they just allow for us to get to those spells 5 minutes earlier when we draw them. It's one out of 99 cards, and one card doesn't usually break a deck if the deck isn't built around it. Cards that break decks are things like Paradox Engine, not things like Sol Ring.
What about the other decks listed in your signature? How many of them don't run Sol Ring?
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

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Skello496
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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Skello496 wrote:
4 years ago
When it comes down to it, my biggest issue is that people claim Sol Ring is a must-include. My Nylea deck is crazy good and doesn't use Sol Ring, and honestly all of my decks would be almost as good without Sol Ring. Sure, it's super nice being able to get that down T1, but it's not making my deck that much worse to not run it. Fast mana isn't a problem in EDH. We're playing 7-10 drop spells consistently, and they just allow for us to get to those spells 5 minutes earlier when we draw them. It's one out of 99 cards, and one card doesn't usually break a deck if the deck isn't built around it. Cards that break decks are things like Paradox Engine, not things like Sol Ring.
What about the other decks listed in your signature? How many of them don't run Sol Ring?
Feather doesn't, because it's so color intensive that sol ring restricts the deck.
The Sphinx deck doesn't, because it's a lower-tier deck that I just didn't put it in to keep it janky-fun.

I'm not saying it's not good, I'm just saying that it isn't a must-play. The only deck I have that I would never consider removing it from is Krenko, because that deck is focused on a T5 win and in a case like that, fast mana is super important. I just don't believe that it's a must-play in every deck, which is the argument of most anti-ringers.
EDH:
Krenko, Goblin Stampeder
Nylea, God of Hydra Counters G
Mahadi, Emporium Master rb
Feather, Catrips Redeemed wr
Ghired, The Tokened gwr

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Skello496 wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not saying it's not good, I'm just saying that it isn't a must-play. The only deck I have that I would never consider removing it from is Krenko, because that deck is focused on a T5 win and in a case like that, fast mana is super important. I just don't believe that it's a must-play in every deck, which is the argument of most anti-ringers.
It's not the argument, it's just an argument. And as professional Sol Ring hater supreme around these parts, I don't make that argument, and by a cursory search, it looks like you're the first person in the thread to bring up the idea of it being "must-play". And that's because it doesn't particularly matter if it must be played by the overwhelming majority of decks in existence, it is played in the overwhelming majority of decks in existence.

It's a supporting argument anyway. A card doesn't need to be banned from a casual format just because it's played a ton. If it makes the format better, that'd be asinine. And there's also no need to ban a card that creates horrible games but practically nobody is playing, that would also be dumb. The ubiquity of Sol Ring is important to point out because a) people aren't going to volunteer to stop playing it, the social contract can't touch it, and b) a minor benefit of banning Sol Ring is that decks will be that 1% less samey.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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