[SCD] Hullbreacher

[toctheyounger]

I'm sort of on the fence about it. I know how strong it is, and I pulled a copy myself which I've yet to place. It really ought to go into Dralnu, Lich Lord but given how many wheels are in there it'll make the deck more oppressive than it already is, and it's about nasty as I've ever got for a build already. The other option is I put it in an upcoming Emry, Lurker of the Loch build, where it could be just as gross. First world problems, amirite?

I think in design there's a couple things that could've been changed to make it more reasonable for non cEDH play. Firstly, instead or replacing draw, which is probably where the oppression begins and ends in fairness, I see no reason it couldn't have been add a treasure for each card drawn beyond the first. That's still very strong, just not as one-sided as it currently is. With it's current wording it could rightly have 2 more to cast and still been pretty pushed.

Secondly, I'm with PleasantKenobi on this - considering Smothering Tithe and the fact that, at least as intended it's designed to balance explosive plays from your opponents, it should have been white. While that's mostly neither here nor there, being in blue gives it access to a literal ton of permission based protection and countermagic (as well as flash because blue=flash) that just make it pretty awful to play against in the right (wrong?) place. It's not like blue needed the help, where white really does. I know that's not looking at the card in a vacuum, but context is important here and blue is top tier context where white just isn't currently.

I can rightly see how it puts forward a strong case for banning, honestly, although as a poor person with this as one of my higher value singles I hope it doesn't get the boot. It's pretty rare for me to be one of the haves instead of the have-nots. I'd understand if it were, it seems pretty nasty in a wheel deck. The fact that I'm unsure where it should live because it's likely to push whatever deck its in sort of speaks volumes.

[ISBPathfinder]

Given covid, I actually have yet to see one played. I suspect that is mostly due to playing against a very small sample size of players more so than anything though. I do see it as a concerning card if paired with wheels but honestly anything that has a positive interaction with wheels scares the hell out of me.

I can't really comment on it beyond that at this time but maybe soon I will encounter one and be able to express my thoughts better.

[Dunharrow]

If the Rules Committee decided to ban Flash, which was banned almost exclusively on cEDH considerations from the context of multiple threads on this site and others I remember reading, then I think discussing a card's ban-worthiness from a cEDH standpoint is acceptable. The reason I think this, besides the precedent set by the Flash banning, is that if a card is absolutely broken at a cEDH level than it becomes a matter of time until the card becomes noticeable at the "casual" setting.

They banned flash because it sees almost no play casually, so it seemed okay to be banned for cEDH consideration. Hullbreacher does not fit that mold.

Respectfully @Dunharrow, cEDH is not a T3 format where the game is over by T3. cEDH is a T3 format meaning that T3 is a pivotal point in the flow of any particular cEDH game. Can the game be over by T3? Sure, but that's the exception and not the rule. Dismissing an observation based on the implied assumption that cEDH isn't EDH isn't productive.

Umm... what? I just said that cEDH is a T3 format. Things happen a lot faster and cards like Ad Nauseam literally end the game if they resolve. The way magic is played in cEDH is very different from casual magic.

[Dunharrow]

Is it stronger than food chain + whatever creature in the command zone?
It is stronger than Protean Hulk?

1. Yes. The food chain combos all require another piece and operate at sorcery and require 6 mana setup cost vs. 3+3.

(Except Prossh, Skyraider of Kher who still doesn't really win on his own with chain, requires other spells)

2. Yes, hulk requires a sac outlet and 2-3+ specific cards and is at sorcery speedunless you're necro-hulking which again requires setup (you have to get hulk in the bin).

All these cards are awful. Hullbreacher is great by itself. That's the main difference. Now we have combos that are made up of all good cards vs. making sacrifices.

You make zero sacrifices to play hullbreacher. Every blue deck should have it pretty much. And Windfall /Timetwister while not pure good stuff become pretty darned great when part of an infinite combo as opposed to being hot garbage as cards like Cephalid Illusionist

I get that hullbreacher is easy to include and every blue deck can play it, but unless that is the case and every blue deck is playing it, this is a moot conversation topic.
Hullbreacher + wheel in the 99 is not an issue for most casual magic games. people don't tutor as much, don't wheel as much as in cEDH.

The last time I saw a wheel in a casual game it was played with a Waste Not, which was pretty good. Also, it was about 6 years ago. I just don't see wheels often enough to think hullbreacher is an issue in casual play.

Obviously, I could be wrong. I barely get any commander in these days.
But all the arguments I see are coming from a cEDH perspective, and y'all should know better than that.

[pokken]

My argument is that it's drifting down into non-CEDH already. I don't play hardly any CEDH and all my games are seeing Hullbreacher lately

It's already in almost 20% of the new blue decks since it came out. That's dockside/fierce guardianship level of adoption.

[toctheyounger]

I wonder if it's worth pointing out how warping it became in that last Game Knights episode....

Granted I don't recommend looking to those guys to form your meta or as a shining example of Rule 0 adaptation, they're all over the place for oppressive decks, budget and combos but what happened did happen.

Ultimately I couldn't fault the RC for banning it if that were to happen. It's a shame because it would just need a tiny tweaking of the rules text to be fine for any level of play.

[Dunharrow]

My argument is that it's drifting down into non-CEDH already. I don't play hardly any CEDH and all my games are seeing Hullbreacher lately

It's already in almost 20% of the new blue decks since it came out. That's dockside/fierce guardianship level of adoption.

Sounds miserable! But is it always followed by a wheel? How much tutoring is involved?

I find the number of tutors to be a good indication of power creep.

[pokken]

Sounds miserable! But is it always followed by a wheel? How much tutoring is involved?

I find the number of tutors to be a good indication of power creep.

A pretty decent amount of tutoring, of various types, but tutoring is less problematic to me than the things you tutor for - although it's not my favorite tbh. Still, across 4 players if 2 have hullbreachers you're likely to see one pretty regularly even sans tutoring.

I didn't tutor for it the one game I have played it so far but i did hit it off Possibility Storm which was pretty funny.

[Vertain]

Given the most recent update is "no changes until in store play, but we're watching some stuff", I'm willing to bet money this card was discussed. JLK famously hates the card, it produces eyerolls even in cEDH levels of play, and its in 2 popular tribes that will encourage its use.

I also like how 'breacher can effectively win off of the back of another player at instant speed for 3 mana. Flash anyone?

I wouldn't get my hopes up about a ban. The RC took 9 months to ban Leovold, Emissary of Trest, and it was their second fastest in recent years, only overtaken by Lutri, the Spellchaser. The average amount of time it takes them to take action against problematic cards is somewhere betwenn one and two years, so if it's as obnoxious as Sylvan Primordial, Prophet of Kruphix, or Primeval Titan, we'll still be seeing it in 2022. Any less and it's going to stay untouched unless Sheldon has some personal problems with it, then we might be rid of it somewhere between August or September. Anything else would be a massive surprise to me.

[benjameenbear]

Umm... what? I just said that cEDH is a T3 format. Things happen a lot faster and cards like Ad Nauseam literally end the game if they resolve. The way magic is played in cEDH is very different from casual magic.

My bad! I've heard the "cEDH games end on T3" enough times that any time I see the statement "cEDH is a turn X format" I try to fight against the implied assumption that games definitively end on T3 EVERY game of cEDH. Nothing could be further from the truth, so I think I misunderstood your original statement there.

For me, I think evaluating a card at a cEDH level is appropriate for any discussion of a card's banworthiness. If the world's most cutthroat casual group finds a problem with a specific card design and potential interactions that card encourages then that card has an inherent power level imbalance that has yet to be fully discovered and exploited by the more casual players... but will. I think Flash was an interesting exception because the lines were so clear and the outcome so definitive that people could voluntarily exclude it and not feel an opportunity cost for doing so. In conjunction with certain EDH staples rising in cost and the uptick of specific generals in popularity (according to EDHRec stats) then I think it's fair to say that the "casual" playgroups of the world are slowly increasing their power level. To me, this signifies that the general EDH community is becoming more aware of specific powerful interactions and are gravitating towards including those in their deck. I could definitely be wrong, and my assumption that the general EDH meta is increasing in power level is based solely on general observations with the EDH community at large.

@pokken is probably the best advocate for Breacher's banning. I admire the card's power (which is the perspective I tried to convey with my comments) and how it warps games but simply find this to be an added appeal for it remaining unbanned; the excitement of not knowing when the game could be over challenges me to build my decks differently than typical cEDH lists and I've had a higher win-rate accordingly.

[UnNamed1]

Hullbreacher is a strong card, but only because players are used to drawing as many cards as they want without consequences.

The consequences of drawing cards in commander is you pay mana (tempo) to do it. Now you get blown the frick out by a 3 mana powerhouse

1 out of 4 people get blown out, the other 2 people react and play around the card. How would this be any different than if your spell gets countered? By a free counterspell no less so they lost 0 mana to do so? The only blowouts happen with wheels, but that's why you have to play smart and know the options your opponents have available.

IMO holding up 3 mana is a clear sign they have interaction. I try my best to avoid putting myself in a situation where that interaction will put me behind.

[pokken]

1 out of 4 people get blown out, the other 2 people react and play around the card. How would this be any different than if your spell gets countered? By a free counterspell no less so they lost 0 mana to do so?

The entire table now having to play around it is pretty significantly different from when a counterspell is cast and now it's gone.

[UnNamed1]

1 out of 4 people get blown out, the other 2 people react and play around the card. How would this be any different than if your spell gets countered? By a free counterspell no less so they lost 0 mana to do so?

The entire table now having to play around it is pretty significantly different from when a counterspell is cast and now it's gone.

Is this any different than the majority of stax pieces? Null Rod for example?

The biggest difference is that Hullbreacher is new, and people need to adapt to it being an instant speed option.

[pokken]

Call me up when null rod gets flash and counters artifact abilities on etb and is a 3/2.

[onering]

Call me up when null rod gets flash and counters artifact abilities on etb and is a 3/2.

And gives you absurd ramp stapled on. Completely agree that comparing this, or Narset/Notion Thief, to most stax pieces is absurd.

One of the features of stax pieces is that they tend to be symmetrical, and you have to figure out how to break the synergy, either by not relying on the cards they shut down (like null rod) or being able to shrug off the effect (spamming tokens in so you don't care about sacrificing to Smokestack), or finding how to get advantage from it (madness and flashback alongside Necrogen Mists).

Hullbreacher and friends subject your opponents to a strong stax effect, and not only leave you out of it but actually give you a substantial boost. This is an overly pushed effect that isn't good for the game. If Hullbreacher/Notion Thief JUST did one or the other, they'd still be really good. Notion Thief as a mini Con Sphinx is still a staple, Hullbreacher as a cheaper Smothering Tithe that can't be prevented is still a staple, either of them as a one sided Spirit of the Labyrinth that can be flashed in would still be great.


Moving on, I've noticed an uptick in Notion Thief being played alongside wheels. I think Hullbreacher has pushed the density of this effect high enough for people to just start basically running Leovold wheels again. Hullbreacher is great, and wheels are awesome with him so you should add wheels, and if that's great why not run Narset and Notion Thief as backup to Hullbreacher, and since that's the strongest thing your deck is doing you should try to do it every game, which means tutoring for it and running every wheel you can, until we're back to seeing turn 3-4 wheel locks like Leovold brought. Wiping your opponent's hands and then holding a grip of 28 cards, or 7 cards and 21 treasures, doesn't win you the game per se, but makes it so likely that you do that it isn't worth playing out. Interestingly, Hullbreacher is the least likely of the 3 to seal the win in a vacuum but the most likely to do so with a bit of setup on the board, because if your just rushing the combo all that mana will let you play your hand but your less likely to get a hand that wins when you draw 7 as opposed to 28, while if you're already have some setup you don't need to find a winning hand, and its easy enough to get enough protection in 7 that the mana matters more.

[pokken]

I put the package of Intuition Dread Return Hullbreacher and Echo of Eons into my Sygg aristocrats deck to try it out. Pretty dope

If you're in UB it's basically correct to run the tiny Wheel-Thief wincon package. Even in blue, the package of:

• Time Spiral
• Windfall
• Narset, Parter of Veils
• Hullbreacher

Is pretty hard to argue with. There're decks that don't want it, but not that many.

[ISBPathfinder]

1 out of 4 people get blown out, the other 2 people react and play around the card. How would this be any different than if your spell gets countered? By a free counterspell no less so they lost 0 mana to do so? The only blowouts happen with wheels, but that's why you have to play smart and know the options your opponents have available.

IMO holding up 3 mana is a clear sign they have interaction. I try my best to avoid putting myself in a situation where that interaction will put me behind.

I haven't played with or against the card yet but I think the issue with this argument is that it requires you to play around it but also it can be used proactively by the player who played it by adding wheels to the mix. If it was just a play around it issue I actually don't think we would be talking about it in a thread like this but wheels make this card both a hatebear effect as well as something that might psudo turn 4 Myojin of Night's Reach opponents while filling up its controller's hand.

Again, I haven't played with or against it but I suspect that the concern is that it has to be played around but also the proactive follow ups that can be had with it. The worst part is that you could just end of turn it into wheeling on your turn making it feel like it came from nowhere.

[BounceBurnBuff]

1 out of 4 people get blown out, the other 2 people react and play around the card. How would this be any different than if your spell gets countered? By a free counterspell no less so they lost 0 mana to do so? The only blowouts happen with wheels, but that's why you have to play smart and know the options your opponents have available.

IMO holding up 3 mana is a clear sign they have interaction. I try my best to avoid putting myself in a situation where that interaction will put me behind.

I haven't played with or against the card yet but I think the issue with this argument is that it requires you to play around it but also it can be used proactively by the player who played it by adding wheels to the mix. If it was just a play around it issue I actually don't think we would be talking about it in a thread like this but wheels make this card both a hatebear effect as well as something that might psudo turn 4 Myojin of Night's Reach opponents while filling up its controller's hand.

Again, I haven't played with or against it but I suspect that the concern is that it has to be played around but also the proactive follow ups that can be had with it. The worst part is that you could just end of turn it into wheeling on your turn making it feel like it came from nowhere.

Speed is a big factor here too. Provided its all on curve and no ramp, you could flash Hullbreacher on turn 3's end step and turn 4 Windfall without much resistance. If you were able to Sol Ring/Mana Crypt it earlier too, I'd struggle to think of grosser things that aren't just a combo win. Thats a huge boon as opposed to Notion Thief, where you'd likely need to run that out later on.

[toctheyounger]

It strikes me that one of the arguments for banning the card is that there's vast redundancy in wheels in the format, to the point where the only one of the power 9 in the format is a wheel, and there are multiple colours the effect appears in. That's not too problematic to me, but I think it's at least a little worrisome that the answer to a resolved Hullbreacher is...well, to run your own Hullbreacher. Or perhaps another draw replacement effect, which you could then stack to favour doing your other thing instead of drawing to stymy the flow of treasures to your opponents. I struggle to think of anything more optimal than treasures though. In fact the only other draw replacement effect I can think of from the top of my head is Underrealm Lich, which while great in it's own way and in it's own niche, isn't quite as powerful as the merfolk pirate. I'd be surprised if there were any other draw replacement effects regularly used in the format, but I can't think of any others at present.

When the answer to a card is to run the card yourself that does raise eyebrows, not gonna lie.

edit - searched for other draw replacement effects:
Abundance
Archmage Ascension
dredge variants
Obstinate Familiar
Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
Sages of the Anima
Pursuit of Knowledge
Enduring Renewal

There's not many here that are actually universally good, or even good anywhere in some cases. Besides which, you're one person at a table of 3-4 usually, so you're really only limiting your contribution to your opponents' stack of treasure.

[illakunsaa]

Possessed Portal
Omen Machine
Zur's Weirding
Uba Mask
Shared Fate
Words of Wind cycle
Unpredictable Cyclone

There are also many cards that don't "draw" cards. Eg. Impulse, Valki, God of Lies // Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor, Light Up the Stage, Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist, Dark Confidant, Diabolic Tutor, Endless Horizons etc.

[umtiger]

Is this any different than the majority of stax pieces? Null Rod for example?

The biggest difference is that Hullbreacher is new, and people need to adapt to it being an instant speed option.

This is so messed up.

Something is wrong with the psychologies of Mtg players when it's allowable to spend your money on new product and therefore get to feel like you can play Hullbreacher no problems. And then push out the players who play Null Rod, Cursed Totem, Torpor Orb, etc. for being "anti-fun."

I guarantee you that no typical EDH table with strangers playing together at FNM ever looked at a Winter Orb and said "we need to adapt to it." That's what's so insidious about these new cards. They just as anti-fun as the anti-fun cards, but packaged/presently differently.

I don't worship at the Tabernacle, but I don't mind a little stax here and there. But I definitely don't look forward to playing against Hullbreacher when play returns.

I don't mind making my bias against the new edh products known. So I got to give Hasbro their due. They found a way to make stax "fun" for new players. Ironically, just make it stax even harder by making it asymmetrical and a PW (Narset/Karn/Teferi) or slap P/T (make it a bear) on it can also carry swords.

They had to make it blue? And make it 3 cmc? And cost it only 1 devotion? And give it flash? And 3/2? And make artifact tokens? And make it a relevant competitive tribe? And make it a relevant meme tribe?

End rant for now.

[pokken]

So I got to give Hasbro their due. They found a way to make stax "fun" for new players. Ironically, just make it stax even harder by making it asymmetrical and a PW (Narset/Karn/Teferi) or slap P/T (make it a bear) on it can also carry swords.

Yeah, somehow if you make the stax piece require zero effort to deploy and interact with cards instead of mana it's OK. Mindslicer has drawn harsh groans for years but now Hullbreacher is out and requires zero effort and is so dumb everyone can play it.

Maybe the secret is making it so good everyone wants to play it, so it cancels out?

[Dragoon]

Yeah, somehow if you make the stax piece require zero effort to deploy and interact with cards instead of mana it's OK. Mindslicer has drawn harsh groans for years but now Hullbreacher is out and requires zero effort and is so dumb everyone can play it.

Maybe the secret is making it so good everyone wants to play it, so it cancels out?

I think this might be closer to the truth actually.
Let's consider for example something like:

Busted Armageddon 4WW
Sorcery

Destroy all lands you don't control

Would that be more or less groan-inducing than the classic Armageddon? I think people might weirdly be less bothered by powerful asymmetric effects rather than symmetric ones that might be wrongly played?

[pokken]

Probably not far off sadly.

[onering]

Possessed Portal
Omen Machine
Zur's Weirding
Uba Mask
Shared Fate
Words of Wind cycle
Unpredictable Cyclone

There are also many cards that don't "draw" cards. Eg. Impulse, Valki, God of Lies // Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor, Light Up the Stage, Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist, Dark Confidant, Diabolic Tutor, Endless Horizons etc.

Its not very relevant to point out more expensive, symmetrical alternatives to the effect when the discussion has already addressed that being asymmetrical (bad effect for your opponents and reward to you) and cheap are the main parts of the problem. As answers to the effect, only some of those cards even work against Hullbreacher, the primary card being discussed here, and they only come online AFTER Hullbreacher + a wheel, making them ineffective at even that.