[SCD] Hullbreacher

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

If people start packing a high count of draw-dodging card advantage to avoid Hullbreacher that is the very definition of format warping which is the type of thing the banlist is designed to control.

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illakunsaa
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Post by illakunsaa » 2 years ago

Just because you have to adapt a little bit doesn't make it format warping and if we actually started banning cards based on how format warping they are there are probably 40-50+ cards that are far more format warping than hullbreacher.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

illakunsaa wrote:
2 years ago
there are probably 40-50+ cards that are far more format warping than hullbreacher.
That's a bold statement. Can you name say, 10?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
illakunsaa wrote:
2 years ago
there are probably 40-50+ cards that are far more format warping than hullbreacher.
That's a bold statement. Can you name say, 10?
:o :dizzy:

I am just kidding. But not really. That might be a bit of a bold statement. I don't disagree that it might be format warping but I don't know that it is to the level you are making it out to be. Especially on the more casual end of commander players there is less draw heavy based tactics and wheels aren't played heavily. Most of that stuff ends up being the sort of high end non cedh level stuffs.

This is definitely in my books going to be more of a card that might hit the mid to higher end of comp but probably hits the lower end a lot less. The more casual edh players tend to play with higher mana curves with more bombs rather than low curves with high draw and tutors.

EDIT: I am not saying its not a problem, its just a problem that the high end is going to see that the lower end probably won't. To be fair though, I am like 99% sure that the same could have been said about Leovold, Emissary of Trest but the fact that he was a commander probably brought more attention to him. Being a non legend makes this card a touch harder for the casual player to stumble over breaking in half with wheels but I don't think its really any different as far as problems go given that Hullbreacher can go into the 99 of a LOT of decks its still in my opinion a problem. I just don't think its a "the sky is falling" level of problem. My opinion is still that Thassa's Oracle is like 10,000% bigger issue but hardly anyone but me seems to talk about it.

The last 1-2 years of magic have really only convinced me that we need to ban a bunch of %$#%. I was totally on board for the minimalistic approach of the RC for YEARS. The last 2 years of new cards have sort of changed my mind though. I want bans and I want a bunch of them.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
That's a bold statement. Can you name say, 10?
:o :dizzy:

I am just kidding. But not really. That might be a bit of a bold statement. I don't disagree that it might be format warping but I don't know that it is to the level you are making it out to be. Especially on the more casual end of commander players there is less draw heavy based tactics and wheels aren't played heavily. Most of that stuff ends up being the sort of high end non cedh level stuffs.

This is definitely in my books going to be more of a card that might hit the mid to higher end of comp but probably hits the lower end a lot less. The more casual edh players tend to play with higher mana curves with more bombs rather than low curves with high draw and tutors.

EDIT: I am not saying its not a problem, its just a problem that the high end is going to see that the lower end probably won't. To be fair though, I am like 99% sure that the same could have been said about Leovold, Emissary of Trest but the fact that he was a commander probably brought more attention to him. Being a non legend makes this card a touch harder for the casual player to stumble over breaking in half with wheels but I don't think its really any different as far as problems go given that Hullbreacher can go into the 99 of a LOT of decks its still in my opinion a problem. I just don't think its a "the sky is falling" level of problem. My opinion is still that Thassa's Oracle is like 10,000% bigger issue but hardly anyone but me seems to talk about it.

The last 1-2 years of magic have really only convinced me that we need to ban a bunch of %$#%.
We should probably talk about what warping means, but having good mana is not warping in my opinion. We just generally assume people will be able to cast their spells, that's not a 'warping.' You see a 5c general and you should plan for anything.

Prophet of Kruphix and Primeval Titan were warping. People played tons of clones, bribery, etc., just to be able to copy them and steal them. They warped both the cards people played *and* the way that games played out.

If people are going to deep in the tank that they're playing Zur's Weirding to dodge Hullbreacher that would be Prophet of Kruphix level warping in terms of deck construction.

I don't think it's quite there yet, because the card hasn't been out long enough, but it is in 20% of blue decks that've been built since it was printed, and that's pretty danger zone territory (comparable cards in market penetration card Dockside Extortionist and Fierce Guardianship and Ponder).

For me it would be a struggle to name 10 cards that are as warping as Hullbreacher in my meta in terms of volume, and of how they impact both how people play and what people play. My list would look something like:
With CSphinx being the honorary 11th I guess, I dunno.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Those are all reasonable cards to put in said list. I would probably also add to that with:
Honestly, you could probably make that list of yours 20 cards deep just naming of cheap ramp unfortunately. The tutors argument is a little so so but they add consistency to some of the format warping and problematic cards. This is also just talking about the 99 and not format warping commanders which are totally a thing.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Those are all reasonable cards to put in said list. I would probably also add to that with:
Honestly, you could probably make that list of yours 20 cards deep just naming of cheap ramp unfortunately. The tutors argument is a little so so but they add consistency to some of the format warping and problematic cards. This is also just talking about the 99 and not format warping commanders which are totally a thing.
I would personally not consider mana rocks and tutors to be particularly warping; you can choose to just ignore the ramp and searching and interact with the cards that actually 'warp' -- if you're losing to Worldly Tutor for Craterhoof Behemoth, it's not the tutor that's doing the damage there. It's Hoofdad being almost impossible to interact with that's doing the warping.

Necropotence and Thassa's Oracle are not in my experience played that much below the 8+ power level area. This is pretty well born out by their abundance numbers, about 10% each.

Hullbreacher, Fierce Guardianship and Dockside Extortionist are in the 20% area where you can see they're everywhere across the power level spectrum and basically everyone should plan to play around them.

And again, I don't think Hullbreacher is necessarily there yet, but I think it will be if you give it a year or so. And if people start running non-draw effects to counter it, that'd be kind of the place where I got *really* concerned about it being warping.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Dockside Extortionist and Bolas's Citadel are also generally more tuned cards that don't play nearly as well at casual tables though either. In my mind when it comes to format warping it tends to be that thing that you cast Demonic Tutor for consistently across multiple decks. The tutors themselves make that specific strong card be good though too in that if your tutor isn't cheap and efficient it makes it take longer to cast than its necessarily worth spending on that one card. Like if you had to Diabolic Tutor for Craterhoof its going to increase its cast speed and mana required by a lot. I am for the record for banning Craterhoof and I would say that at least a third to half of the reason for me being behind his banning is because he is a creature instead of a sorcery. If that effect wasn't on a body it would make green's access to the effect far less centralizing.

This is getting a bit off track though. I haven't seen hullbreacher but while I agree that its concerning I am not convinced that it stands among the cards that I actually want banned yet. Its not a design that I am overly happy to see but I also don't know that I can get behind banning it (at least yet without seeing more). If you do the thing with it, in my mind you have just pissed off your whole playgroup and essentially done something the level of which might cross some lines of social acceptance but its not like dropping your opponents hands and drawing seven wins you the game. It does however make you play 3v1 the rest of said game. Being a flash creature does make it a bit of a challenge to interact with but it is a 3/2 creature after all. Almost every single creature removal spell out there will probably interact with that line. Its not like Spikefield Hazard is premium removal in this format.
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

"In my mind when it comes to format warping it tends to be that thing that you cast Demonic Tutor for consistently across multiple decks. "

Snipping this out here because I think that's a really good metric for judging whether a card is warping the format. If you have the card and Demonic Tutor in your deck multiple decks, and your most common use of Demonic Tutor is grabbing that card, then its a red flag that it might be format warping.

Its not really enough on its own of course. It could just be a really good answer spell like Rift, and you have a tendency to fall behind early so you always tutor for it even though if things were going better for you you would be grabbing something else. Or maybe you just like a specific 2 card combo that you run a lot and tutor for. But its one of those things that should make you sit up and take notice.

Collecting red flags I'd say:

If you run the card an Demonic/Vampiric Tutor in the deck, and you usually want to tutor for the card and you will always do so unless you need a specific answer RIGHT NOW, its a red flag.

If the presence of the card in the format leads people to suggest running nonsense like Zur's Weirding to deal with it being in the format, its a red flag.

If you find yourself running cards specifically to steal this particular card from other players, its a red flag.

If its in the 99 and you see a copy at least every 3 games, its a red flag.

If its a commander and you see it every other game, its a red flag.

No single red flag is enough to say its format warping, and cards don't have to hit each one to be format warping, but they're all things that should raise an eyebrow, and hitting more than two strongly points to it warping the format.

Like, Rift hits two (tutor target and popping up every 3 games), and we see it regularly discussed. I'd sort of count it as 1.5 because its an answer spell and typically tutored for to bail out of bad situations. Sol Ring shows up ever game basically, but that's the only red flag it really hits. Hullbreacher is close to showing up every 3 games, but I'm not sure its quite there yet. I am noticing an increase in people running steal effects and Praetor's Grasp grabbing Hullbreacher (and Notion Thief) and more wheels than usual. And we have people suggesting untenable answers to Hullbreacher effects. At this point, if its not warping the format yet its damn close, and its still a new card that was released at a time when people aren't playing as much due to COVID. It could still get worse.

Or, it could get better. Maybe since people don't get as much a chance to play nowadays, they get more cutthroat with what they run because they have fewer opportunities to win. If you play a game a week, and win 1/4 of your games, you get to win once a month, but if you only get to play once a month you'll go months without winning. So you go for the easy and cheesy plays to give yourself a better shot at winning when you get the rare opportunity to play. Perhaps when people are playing more often again, they'll be more willing to take a risk on more fun and varied decks because they'll get more wins over a four month period despite their win ration dropping simply because they'll be playing a lot more. I think sometimes I, and I'm sure others around here, forget that for some people what matters more is how long in terms of time it has been since they're last win, rather than how many games they've played since their last win, and going a couple of months without winning a game while playing 4 games in that stretch stings more than winning once a month while getting in 8 games in that month.

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Post by illakunsaa » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago

I would personally not consider mana rocks and tutors to be particularly warping; you can choose to just ignore the ramp
The thing is people don't ignore the ramp. Look at your own deck lists in your sig. All of them ramp but not all of them run breacher. If every decklist dedicating 10+ slots to ramp is not format warping to you then I don't know what to tell you.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

illakunsaa wrote:
2 years ago
The thing is people don't ignore the ramp. Look at your own deck lists in your sig. All of them ramp but not all of them run breacher. If every decklist dedicating 10+ slots to ramp is not format warping to you then I don't know what to tell you.
Are lands warping because everyone runs them?

Making Mana is a feature of the game. Needing to ramp is a defining characteristic of the card pool in commander.

(Edit to clarify: There is a warping effect of most decks having 6-10 mana rocks in them, but that's an aggregate effect. Mana Crypt individually does not make people play Vandalblast -- it's because you have 10 rocks in your deck!)

If they printed Mana crypt two electric boogaloo tomorrow it would get added to your deck. But it wouldn't change the cards other people play in theirs outside of adding it as well.

Adding hullbreacher for example is warping because it's starting to change the other cards and patterns people play with. They're changing other cards in their decks in response to hullbreacher. And it absolutely warps gameplay around it as everyone has to play awkwardly around it.

Here's an example of an ongoing warp: people are playing lightning bolt in cedh now. A lot. Because it kills breacher.

Dockside extortionist is kinda similar but it warps play patterns more obviously. People hold back rocks and enchantments if they suspect extortionist to avoid it going infinite a lot nowadays.



edit: For a more concise explanation of what I consider to be warping

Back in the Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan days, people ran Bribery pretty much exclusively to get these cards. Bribery has almost entirely fallen off the map now (2%) that you can't count on anyone to be playing consistently great creatures that will work with any gameplan.

When I was playin early on, it was almost 100% someone was playing Sylvan Primordial and if you bribed it on turn 3 or 4 you would win the game easily.

That's a clear cut warp. People playing Phantasmal Image and Bribery en masse to react to a specific card.

There's no response like that to Sol Ring in mainstream EDH. No one is playing Mental Misstep outside of CEDH. (And even there, it's because of the abundance of 1 cmc spells that break the game in CEDH, not just Sol ring)

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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 2 years ago

rule committe just did a update

https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2021 ... 21-update/

this card is...DEAD!!!!!!! (banned)


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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Wow, I'm kinda surprised but also pleased. Wasted 50 bucks but whatever :)

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Wow, I'm kinda surprised but also pleased. Wasted 50 bucks but whatever :)
I, too, spent money on Hullbreacher and am not at all sad to see it go.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

It was one of the better pulls from my CMR box but I'm not mad. The card was poorly worded and could've been completely fine if it didn't replace draw.

I didn't get a single game in with mine. Put it in my nastiest deck and still couldn't bring myself to inflict it on people.
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Post by RedCheese » 2 years ago

People should blame Wizards for making this card as degenerate as possible. if worded a bit diferently would still be pwoerful without been game breaking, but they %$#% it up(or intentional to sell more packs, tinfoil hat mode)

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

I'm happily changing a few decks right now!

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I am going to let the success of this thread stand as probably my best overall moment arguing rules on the internet since clearly it was our beautifully crafted discussions that pushed it over the edge and made this happen. Go team nexus!!

I think this makes me happier than a golos ban would.

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Post by Maluko » 2 years ago

RedCheese wrote:
2 years ago
People should blame Wizards for making this card as degenerate as possible. if worded a bit diferently would still be pwoerful without been game breaking, but they %$#% it up(or intentional to sell more packs, tinfoil hat mode)
After some consideration, if Wizards wants to popularize this anti-draw hate more often, they need to exclude the controller of wheel effects to make it less degenerate. In other words, Hullbreacher's ability should've been:

If a spell or ability an opponent controls would cause their controller to draw one or more cards, instead you create a Treasure token.

That way, you can keep your opponents' card draw in check while preventing everyone from discarding their hands with your own wheel spells. The same can even be applied to Leovold and Narset, maybe not with this exact wording, but the intention is there:

If a spell or ability an opponent controls would cause their controller to draw a second card each turn, instead that player skips that draw (draws happen one at a time)
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Maluko wrote:
2 years ago
RedCheese wrote:
2 years ago
People should blame Wizards for making this card as degenerate as possible. if worded a bit diferently would still be pwoerful without been game breaking, but they %$#% it up(or intentional to sell more packs, tinfoil hat mode)
After some consideration, if Wizards wants to popularize this anti-draw hate more often, they needs to exclude the controller of wheel effects to make it less degenerate. In other words, Hullbreacher's ability should've been:

If a spell or ability an opponent controls would cause their controller to draw one or more cards, instead you create a Treasure token.

That way, you can keep your opponents' card draw in check while preventing everyone from discard their hands with your own wheel spells. The same can even be applied to Leovold and Narset, maybe not with this exact wording, but the intention is there:

If a spell or ability an opponent controls would cause their controller to draw a second card each turn, instead that player skips that draw (draws happen one at a time)
They don't think of those riders to keep things sane until they print an effect in white, so see ya when Hwbreacher gets printed and costs 4, loses flash, and only triggers once a turn.

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Post by JWK » 2 years ago

I have two copies, one foil. I never put it in any decks, and don't feel bad that I never will.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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