Gold bordered cards

User avatar
gilrad
Posts: 105
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by gilrad » 3 years ago

There was a recent Commanders Quarters video on this and it spurred me to action writing my own thoughts about GB cards. I'll refrain from reiterating the points made there, as I want to approach the topic from a different direction.

Additionally, to prevent this from turning into another proxy discussion, we're going to need to start with a few axioms:

1) There are two aspects to MTG we participate in, MTG the card game that consists of game objects, and MTG the collectable game that consists of collectable objects.
2) It is preferable to participate in both MTG's game aspect and trading aspect if possible
3) It is preferable for players to be able to play with cards (the game object) that they want to play with if possible.


tl;dr / abstract below:
SPOILER
Show
Hide
Reserve list cards (the collector pieces) are on their way to an impractical price range. Were this to not be addressed, players will proxy to play the cards (game pieces) they want. An ideal solution would be to re-introduce gold-bordered cards that are both game pieces and collector pieces.
Reserve list cards are on their way to an impractical price range

I was mildly aware of this sentiment among Legacy players way back before Modern was created. You have a limited supply that can't increase, and an increasing demand. Not only is it not preferable for the barrier of entry among players to be so high, but at some point the format suffers as well. There was an attempt to fix this problem in 2010 by experimenting with reprinting cards on the reserve list, but the backlash was so strong that plan was quickly dropped. About a year afterward Modern was introduced: Wizards' solution to the price time bomb was there was no solution, let's make a new format where we are allowed to reprint.

Now for many veteran players, the prices, while high, aren't all that big of a deal. We have enough of a collection that, if we wanted a grim monolith ($287 as of the time of this writing), we could buylist cards we're not using to get up to that value. Or maybe we have one lying around in an unused deck we could cannibalize. Likewise, I suspect players who have the disposable income and are willing to grow their collections would consider this a heavy ask, but not impossible.

Let's go a bit further and look at The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (close to $2000 at the time of writing). For those of you who own one, how willing are you to put it in your deck? Take the deck out for a night of EDH? shuffle your deck with the card inside? Leave your decks in your car while you go grocery shopping on your way home? For those with a large collection but don't have the card, what kind of non-RL cards would you need to trade to be able to get your hands on one? For those without the collection, would you be willing to throw down that kind of money to enjoy Tabernacle (the collectable item)?

It is an eventuality that, at some point most EDH-desirable cards on the RL will see prices close to Tabernacle if nothing is done to adjust the supply or demand.

Players will play with the game pieces they want to play with

Have you ever heard of "binder proxying"? A year or two ago I thought it was an interesting idea, keeping your valuable cards safe in your binder and playing proxies in the decks you bring to the table. In the past two months I've seen or heard of several independent cases of people talking about switching to this system, which means that either a content creator talked about it, or players are already getting to the point where they are willing to concede the impracticality of playing with cards (the collector's item) so they can play with cards (the game objects) with peace of mind. To me, this tells me that even players who never had any reason to proxy until now can pick up proxying if the circumstances get extreme enough.

You might think, "well why don't we all move to binder proxying then?" Well, it's not a perfect solution. Speaking from my perspective, the reason why I participate in MTG the collectable game is so I can use those cards in MTG the card game. Have you ever owned something collectable and just kept it in a drawer? Figures get posed and displayed. Legos are built and displayed, cars are driven. If we only cared about collecting the items and never "using" them in any way, they would remain in their original boxes with the wrap still around them. Cars would stay in a garage with the engine in long-term storage mode (not a car guy but I know engines don't like to sit unused for long periods of time, I assume there's a way to store them long-term without trouble). Anyways my point is it's nice to look at our cards, but better to play with them.

An ideal solution would be to re-introduce gold-bordered cards that are both game pieces and collector pieces.

Which brings us to the main point here: If the choice is between having players play with game objects that are not collectable versus playing with game objects that are collectable, we should strive for the latter. As things currently are, however, the latter is becoming less and less possible with certain cards.

In the short term, officially allowing gold border is a great solution, but this signal to Wizards would have to be met with action on their part too. I've heard that there are vastly fewer gold-bordered cards than there are of their reserve-list counterparts, so even if the rules committee were to announce GB legal, it wouldn't be a very long time before the GB card were not much cheaper than their RL counterparts. Likewise, I can see why the RC would be reluctant to announce GB legal without ensuring Wizards is ready with a product soon, doing so would create immense market instability as the cards prices would shoot up, then drop once product is announced.

Wizard's current solution of printing close-to-but-not-really versions like Wheel of Misfortune might help a bit, but it falls short on two counts: It's not suppressing demand for the original RL card when players can play both, and the differences between the new card and the original can be large enough to warrant wanting the original (see: players can save their hand from Wheel of Misfortune but can't from Wheel of Fortune).

To my mind, the only reasonable solution is to open the gates to gold border. Most other solutions involve kicking the can down the road, or massive concessions to player sensibilities. We're going to reach a point in the future where it's no longer practical to play RL cards, I'd at least like to be able to play with collector pieces in that future if possible.

umtiger
Posts: 395
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

What is the point of officially allowing gold-bordered, if the community already tacitly accepts proxies?

I'd venture to say that anyone who doesn't want to play against proxies and vocalizes it will probably be pressured into accepting it because people will not want to play against you.

User avatar
gilrad
Posts: 105
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by gilrad » 3 years ago

umtiger wrote:
3 years ago
What is the point of officially allowing gold-bordered, if the community already tacitly accepts proxies?

I'd venture to say that anyone who doesn't want to play against proxies and vocalizes it will probably be pressured into accepting it because people will not want to play against you.
Perhaps I should have been clearer on that point.

The ultimate goal is for Wizards to add supply by reprinting RL through gold bordered. Before that can happen, the official stance has to change. The official stance changing by its self wouldn't accomplish much however since there are so few GB cards out there - their prices would very quickly match or rest a little below their RL counterparts. In fact, GB Gaea's Cradle is already over $160, showing that, as you said, 'tactily accepting proxies' is enough for that price to reach such a height.

umtiger
Posts: 395
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

I suppose my next question is, why does price matter at all if proxies are tacitly accepted?

That's why I don't see any point in RC having an official stance on proxies or care about GB cards.

It's clearly preferable for enough people to have the actual card since prices show a certain level of demand. But if you can't afford the card, it's okay since
1.) I stand by that you don't need certain cards to play and have fun.
2.) If you cannot afford a card or just don't even want to buy a card in the first place, proxies are already accepted. Is it a big deal for anyone to have an "official" gold bordered proxy?
3.) And if it is a big enough deal to you, then I would say it's just a fact that you have to pay for it. I almost want to just say "should" pay for it.

Price isn't the only reason why people proxy. Further, reserve list cards also aren't the only cards being proxied. This topic seems to be more about just wanting cheaper cards than anything else. I'm not sure that's the point of the RC.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4584
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

gilrad wrote:
3 years ago
Let's go a bit further and look at The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (close to $2000 at the time of writing). For those of you who own one, how willing are you to put it in your deck? Take the deck out for a night of EDH? shuffle your deck with the card inside? Leave your decks in your car while you go grocery shopping on your way home?
I'm thrilled when I get the chance to put it in my deck to show it off. Tbh it doesn't happen very often, though. It's not a very versatile card. Most recently had it in my Tergrid's Lantern deck. That deck was worth 10K and it was god-awful lol.

Of course I'm eager to play it in a game, otherwise I wouldn't have put it in the deck. I don't consider shuffling a significant risk to the card, the number of times I've bent a card while shuffling is pretty close to zero. I'll admit I get a little tense if someone gains control or wants to handle one of my more expensive cards, but that's never actually been a problem.

I don't have a car so that part's irrelevant, but I have once or twice left my box unattended in a store on accident. Not sure if I've ever had Tabernacle in there on one of those occasions but certainly other very expensive cards. At any rate, theft has never been a problem for me (except that one time in high school when someone stole my Rith, the Awakener and I will never forget it). The vast majority of players (and people) are not thieves.

At the end of the day, while it feels like "any risk is too much risk with such an expensive card!" the reality is that the chances of me ruining or losing any given card in a deck is extremely close to zero. I've never had drinks spilled on my cards despite constantly being paranoid of it. I've never had anything stolen despite constantly being paranoid of it. I've (almost) never had a card get bent while playing despite being constantly paranoid of it. Of course it helps that my sleeves never ever split.

Anyway, my point is that your brain is dumb and usually thinks of risks as being 50/50 between damaging/losing the card and not. But the reality is that it's a tiny tiny risk, so tiny that even multiplied against a 2K card it's not that bad. So yeah, I play my cards. That's why I bought 'em.

On a similar note, insurance is a scam.
It is an eventuality that, at some point most EDH-desirable cards on the RL will see prices close to Tabernacle if nothing is done to adjust the supply or demand.
Thaaaat seems like a stretch. Cradle, duals, maybe, but I don't think my buddy Phelddagrif is breaking triple digits anytime soon. And if you tell me he's not EDH-desirable I will cut you.

To me this seems like a problem for Legacy/Vintage, not commander. Most people I play against don't have any reserved list cards, and it doesn't seem to bother them. There are loads of new powerful cards to play - and that's going to become more true with time, not less. The escalating prices are irrelevant if people aren't playing them at current prices and don't mind. And in situations where they're more important, like cEDH, the majority of people are chill with proxies.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
TheAmericanSpirit
Supreme Dumb Guy
Posts: 2205
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him
Location: IGMCULSL Papal Palace

Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

I've never had a problem with Gold Bordered cards and neither has anyone else in my experience. Most of the good ones aren't cheap themselves; my gold bordered Grim Monolith is worth like 30 quid now.

I think unless someone is playing for prizes or without sleeves, they're the highest quality proxie someone can have. I've played enough vintage to appreciate a high quality proxy as opposed to the common formula of "(Sharpie + Plains) × Thin Excuses = Black Lotus".
There's no biscuits and gravy in New Zealand.
(Except when DirkGently makes them!)

User avatar
Krishnath
Mechanical Dragon
Posts: 3565
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: A cave somewhere in Scandinavia

Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

gilrad wrote:
3 years ago
Reserve list cards are on their way to an impractical price range
I've said it before and I will without a doubt say it many times again: The Reserved List is a threat to the longevity of the eternal formats and should be removed. And the funny thing is, if WotC decided to do so, they could do it tomorrow without being at risk legally for two simple reasons:

#1: It is policy. Companies change policies all the friggin' time. All it really requires is a press release.
#2: It has been changed before without legal challenge. This means that anyone stupid enough to sue WotC over removing it or removing cards from it would lose in court.

The only real thing that legalizing gold bordered cards would do, is drive the price of said gold bordered cards up without actually benefiting anyone that doesn't already own them.
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.

Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.

The Commander Legacy Project, Come say hello and give your thoughts.

Like to read? Love books and want to recommend one to your fellow forum users? Go here.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4584
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

The RL is a threat to legacy and vintage (which I'm pretty sure wotc as a company doesn't care about) but it doesn't impact commander really. Most people are happy playing without RL cards. And most people are ok with proxies.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

umtiger
Posts: 395
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

I'll also put out there that if you deeply care about playing eternal formats, you should definitely be playing MTGO. That is where most (if not all) where the high level play occurs for vintage/legacy. The RL doesn't hinder play there.

As for EDH, I wouldn't characterize it as an eternal format. It's a casual format and RL hasn't hindered anyone as far as I can tell.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6347
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
The RL is a threat to legacy and vintage (which I'm pretty sure wotc as a company doesn't care about) but it doesn't impact commander really. Most people are happy playing without RL cards. And most people are ok with proxies.
I think
"resigned to being unable to afford RL cards"
and
"grudgingly willing to tolerate proxies while grumbling about it"

would be more accurate

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4584
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Ofc I can't say for sure what's going on inside peoples' heads, nor how people behave where I'm not playing, but proxy complainers are a pretty tiny minority in my experience, and I haven't seen many people terribly hung up about not getting to play RL cards either.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

umtiger
Posts: 395
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think
"resigned to being unable to afford RL cards"
and
"grudgingly willing to tolerate proxies while grumbling about it"

would be more accurate
Depends on what the grumbling is about.
A.) are we grumbling about illegible sharpie proxies?
B.) tasteless anime proxies?
C.) resigned to using to proxies to access something out of budget?

I feel bad for anyone who has to experience a and b.

I don't feel bad for group c. Casual EDH isn't pay to play given the general acceptance of proxies. Is this even a RL/gold-border discussion anymore? I mean, younger version of myself balked at spending the going rate for shocklands. And I'm sure middle-schooled aged Timmy cannot simply open the wallet for every Doubling Season-esque card they want to build around. .

This is such a great game. This is such a fun variant of the game. This is such a great community that people are willing to allow others to play with proxies.

The grumbling about price feels toxic.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6347
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I have heard tons of grumbling about proxies that mostly come from two places.

1. I worked hard to acquire my cards and people using proxies devalues my stuff. I make budget concessions and play cards I own so other people should be constrained too.

2. I don't like losing to overpowered proxies. People jamming overpowered crap they can't afford for some reason is more of a sticking point than people playing op crap they do own.


It's doubtless toxic in some ways. But people do have a point buried in there which is that a huge part of the health of commander depends on people being gated by their wallets. There is a large segment of the population that would play busted nonsense in every deck if they could afford it.

It's a big issue honestly. You see it when those guys let loose and give proxies a black eye. Every community has their stories about that kid showing up with a proxies deck full of cedh goodstuff and running wild. I've played against a bunch of those kids. With imperial seal, mox diamond, and a set of fetches playing against people's budget decks they paid money for.

The problem is of course not proxying or money, it's the dude playing op stuff in a lower powered meta.

But it shines a light on how so many discussions about power level simply don't have to happen because it's much harder to build overpowered decks without expensive glue. The format is essentially dependent on price gating keeping the power level manageable at least right now.

It'll be interesting to see what a continued change in toward proxies brings.

User avatar
gilrad
Posts: 105
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by gilrad » 3 years ago

Maybe I over-estimated my personal perspective on proxying? I assumed when I created this topic that a major consideration in peoples' views on proxies is the desire to play with cards as tradable objects that have value. From that perspective, the potential availability of cheap yet still-tradable gold-bordered cards seemed like an obvious solution. It's not all that enjoyable for me to play with a piece of cardboard that has no value as a tradable object, and at the same time bringing too much value of cards with me at any time carries its own issues.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4584
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Tbh I don't like having semi-legal cards. I like my cards to either be 100% legit cards, or proxies. Personally I'd never spend money on a gold-bordered card because it would exist in some weird nether-realm between being legit and not. Even if it were dictated as commander legal by the RC, being illegal for tournament play still feels like it's fake, especially when the price is significantly less. And if the price isn't significantly less, then it's just not worth the cash (can't believe people pay hundreds for some of those things).

Basically, if GB were like 0.1% of the cost of BB (and let's assume I'm building a collection from scratch) I'd probably use them if I didn't intend to get BB since they're a nice looking proxy with some debatable extra cred. Once they're more than like $10 though, nah. I can just buy a nice color printer if I care that much. My thinking is pretty black and white between being "real" and being anything less than real.

But that's just my personal dogma. If other people want to buy them, I'm happy to play against them just like regular proxies. But some people seem to get really upset when the legitimacy of their GB card is called into question, and to me it always smells like buyer's remorse.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
Dragoon
Posts: 417
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Tbh I don't like having semi-legal cards. I like my cards to either be 100% legit cards, or proxies. Personally I'd never spend money on a gold-bordered card because it would exist in some weird nether-realm between being legit and not. Even if it were dictated as commander legal by the RC, being illegal for tournament play still feels like it's fake, especially when the price is significantly less. And if the price isn't significantly less, then it's just not worth the cash (can't believe people pay hundreds for some of those things).

Basically, if GB were like 0.1% of the cost of BB (and let's assume I'm building a collection from scratch) I'd probably use them if I didn't intend to get BB since they're a nice looking proxy with some debatable extra cred. Once they're more than like $10 though, nah. I can just buy a nice color printer if I care that much. My thinking is pretty black and white between being "real" and being anything less than real.

But that's just my personal dogma. If other people want to buy them, I'm happy to play against them just like regular proxies. But some people seem to get really upset when the legitimacy of their GB card is called into question, and to me it always smells like buyer's remorse.
I think "not legal in tournaments" is definitely different than "not a real magic card". Silver-bordered magic cards are still real, they have been manufactured and sold by WotC and people play with them, just not in tournaments. I see gold-bordered cards the same way: they are real magic cards, manufactured and sold by WotC, just not legal in tournaments. On top of that, EDH isn't a sanctioned format, officially at least. As long as there is no prize on the line, I don't see any problem with those cards. I can understand people not wanting to play with or against gold-bordered cards, but calling them proxies is definitely a stretch in my eyes.

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1781
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago

I picked up a gold border Flooded Strand thinking i had a copy in another deck (I didn't) and no one minds in my group when i use it.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Rules and Philosophy”