[SCD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Soo we had a pretty robust thread on this a couple years back at sally but I think it deserves a new one given how long Golos, Tireless Pilgrim the tireless game ruiner has been allowed to run rampant :P



Rofellos is *at best* the third best mono-green general after Yisan, the Wanderer Bard and Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. Not a ton of things have changed since the last round of discussion on this, probably the most notable is that Wizards has had a round of printing a ton of really powerful non-basic lands that are extremely desirable to play in a mono-colored deck. Wizards has also printed a new bananas mono-green general who - even without a partner - is borderline on a power level with Rofelcopter, yisan and selvala (Kodama of the East Tree) - Kodama can also partner with a variety of fairly decent mono green generals.

The other major thing to happen over the last couple years is the critical turn of a commander game shifting quite a bit earlier (just in my opinion, but seems to be born out by how decks are made these days, and significant online play). Decks are faster, there's a lot more focus on early ramp, and there's a continued pressure to run more, cheaper removal as a result.

Finally, the printing of Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is probably the big nail in the coffin for Rofellos being banned. It's a better card that combos with everything and adds a superbly powerful additional color.

In a format with Kinnan legal, Rofellos being banned is truly absurd.

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Post by Mookie » 2 weeks ago

Hmmmm.... "Golos and Kinnan are broken, therefore unban Rofellos" feels like a whatabout-ism to me. I can definitely see some arguments for unbanning Rofellos from the perspective of power creep - there have been a lot of extremely powerful commanders printed, even in mono-green. However, I'd still lean against an unban.

One reason is the turn that Rofellos comes down - he costs a mana less than Yisan and Selvala, which allows his controller to do dumb nonsense a full turn sooner. It's trivial to go T2 Rofellos → T3 6-drop, which isn't something other commanders are doing without additional support. There is a cost to running basics over utility lands, but I'm not that convinced of its significance. Additionally, Rofellos generates this mana without any additional investment - Selvala needs other creatures to be played, and Yisan requires mana to be spent on his ability. It's conceivable that those commanders could have a bad draw, but Rofellos's consistency means he'll be dropping nonsense on turn 3 every. Single. Game.

I'll also note that unbanning Rofellos would mean that other mono-green commanders (ex: Yisan) would be able to tutor him up. While it may be the case that mono-colored decks are generally outclassed by multicolor decks, I don't believe that mono-green in particular needs the additional power. Mono-white or mono-red, sure, but mono-green? No.

The final nail in the coffin for me is that Rofellos is on the Reserved List. He's already extremely expensive, and if he were unbanned, he would go in every mono-green deck. 'Expensive staple that makes games go even faster for people willing to shell out hundreds of dollars' isn't exactly the sort of card I would want added to the format (Mana Crypt is at the top of my personal ban wishlist for a reason).

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Post by DirkGently » 2 weeks ago

It's hard to say how good he is tbh. The decks I remember from ten years ago when he was briefly legal probably wouldn't compete with today's stronger options, but (hardly) anyone knows what an optimized modern rofellos deck would look like. He's definitely got some strong tools, with multiple 2-card infinites, and requires very little support to be powerful - with basically no support whatsoever, he untaps into 6 mana on turn 3. That's pretty damn strong. The other commanders you're talking about all require specific synergies to really go off the chain. Of course that goes back to the question of what power level we're worried about balance for.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Mookie wrote:
2 weeks ago
It's trivial to go T2 Rofellos → T3 6-drop
DirkGently wrote:
2 weeks ago
he untaps into 6 mana on turn 3
People keep saying that but to consistently have 6 mana on turn 2 you need to be running 30+ basic forests which is really unrealistic these days. The deck would be pretty awkward. If you wanna see this in action go build a rofellos deck with 22 forests like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds runs and see how often you hit 3 forests in 10 cards.

It's definitely tough without knowing what the optimal decks look like; Yisan and Selvala basically combo decks. Rofello feels like he would play closer to Azusa, Lost but Seeking to me, especially since he'd really want to be playing forest ramp spells to ensure he isn't removal'd out of the game. So your turn 3 is probably just ramping more but with spells most of the time.

Here's a question for ya - what's your optimal 6 mana turn 2 play?

Staff of Domination requires I wanna say 5 forests to go infinite, so you can't do that without support. Skyshroud Claim into Staff of Domination gg? :P

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Post by DirkGently » 2 weeks ago

Well if you go Umbral Mantle you can take an infinite-damage swing at someone, then untap into infinite mana on turn 4 (if Rofellos survives and you have a 4th forest).

That said idk that combo wins are the thing to look out for, exactly, as far as the RC is concerned. I think it's more likely the general spewing of value by chaining draw and ramp that's exacerbated by a powerful ramp spell in the command zone coming down on turn 2 every game.

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Post by Mookie » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
Mookie wrote:
2 weeks ago
It's trivial to go T2 Rofellos → T3 6-drop
DirkGently wrote:
2 weeks ago
he untaps into 6 mana on turn 3
People keep saying that but to consistently have 6 mana on turn 2 you need to be running 30+ basic forests which is really unrealistic these days. The deck would be pretty awkward. If you wanna see this in action go build a rofellos deck with 22 forests like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds runs and see how often you hit 3 forests in 10 cards.

It's definitely tough without knowing what the optimal decks look like; Yisan and Selvala basically combo decks. Rofello feels like he would play closer to Azusa, Lost but Seeking to me, especially since he'd really want to be playing forest ramp spells to ensure he isn't removal'd out of the game. So your turn 3 is probably just ramping more but with spells most of the time.

Here's a question for ya - what's your optimal 6 mana turn 2 play?

Staff of Domination requires I wanna say 5 forests to go infinite, so you can't do that without support. Skyshroud Claim into Staff of Domination gg? :P
I'm speaking at least somewhat from a casual perspective, since I don't play cEDH. I think it's a reasonable assumption for people to hit their third land drop a vast majority of the time. It's possible that rate goes down if you're running a bunch of fast mana instead of lands, but...

As for the optimal six mana play... clearly Primeval Titan, since we're taking stuff off the banlist already. :P More seriously... Woodland Bellower? Mana Reflection? Nissa's Renewal? Green Sun's Zenith? There are a lot of options. The main thing for me is the sheer consistency of Rofellos - I've played plenty of games that have effectively ended on turn 3 off Sol RingSkyshroud Claim → snowbally nonsense, but they're generally a rarity (and almost never constitute satisfying gameplay, which is the bigger issue here). Rofellos would do that every game if not immediately killed. It's certainly fair to say 'just play removal', but I also don't think it's appropriate to say decks should be prepared to interact on turn 2 or lose in a non-competitive meta.

Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a similar commander that also grants access to a lot of mana fairly consistently, but she also requires a ton of lands to fuel her, which Rofellos does not. I'll also note that at two mana, it's not difficult to recast Rofellos a few times if necessary.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Honestly I think azusa is better nowadays with access to ramunap excavator and all the busted eldrazi from bfz. :). I've done a bit of theoryfiddling and I think eye of ugin azusa is a way better deck at mid power levels.

Rofelxopter is solid but azusa at that time could not find crucible or loam reliably, it's a game changer now. Also quite a ton of great lands that are not forests.

Nykthos alone is kinda bananas but castle garenrig and cavern of souls do some damage too.

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Post by umtiger » 2 weeks ago

Are you sure Rofellos is really #3? I've been playing a long time, like back in the before Rofellos/Braids/Erayo were banned days. And Rofellos will always be numero uno en mi carazón.

Yes, Rofellos might not be as strong of a card as Yisan the tutor or Selvala the drawer. But that's also true for Erayo and Braids. There are better cards, but the paradigm shifts when they are the general. Like, Erayo turns 0 cmc garbage into gold that Sai can only turn into 1/1's. It's not enough to just say that there are better cards out there.

There are not going to be any non-cEDH decks that can compete with turn 3 gggggg. Can a not tuned to an inch of its life Yisan or Selvala deck beat an opponent that has gggggg on turn 3 every game? Because that's what a non-tuned Rofellos deck is bringing. (btw, Phyrexian Dreadnaught is also reserved list so I don't want to see any card price complaining on this thread)

The only way he's coming back is banned as a general. He's actually the only reason why I bothered to type in that other thread. He's a cool card. Doesn't even mess with you like Braids/Erayo.

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Post by folding_music » 2 weeks ago

I would definitely want a Rofellos to go main deck in whatever green-based Abzan EDH thing I'm building at the time. I've always used Murmuring Bosk's existence as an excuse to try and build it in an Oops! All Forests kinda manner and Rofellos is basically the strongest card you can add to that theme, and he's banned \o/

As a commander I wouldn't feel comfortable using him - an exponential growth figurehead in mono-green seems like a hard-to-defend archenemy? Plus you'd hear such groans when you unboxed the boy. And also I play super low power decks so I'd be using his broken ability to cast all my terrible pet cards and it'd be a waste.

as an aside, isn't Rofellos the single card most conspicuously absent of flavour text? Look at all that frame real estate.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 weeks ago

Anyone who thinks rofello would notbe the best green general hands down is a fool. Card is so far beyond the pale in terms of power. I've been playing Selvala Brostorm as my comp deck for 3 years now, and Rofellos would replace selvala in a snap because the chasm of power level between them is so wide, modern metrics cannot measure it. Selvala is so much worse than Rofello it hurts.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

umtiger wrote:
2 weeks ago
Are you sure Rofellos is really #3? I've been playing a long time, like back in the before Rofellos/Braids/Erayo were banned days. And Rofellos will always be numero uno en mi carazón.
Yes I am 100% sure he can't compete in cedh. He requires too high a land count, can't really play Mana dorks (the most powerful part of mono green) effectively as Mana sources and can't play the slow game he's optimally designed for that uses forest based ramp for resiliency.

His combo pieces cannot be tutored for in green and he will struggle to draw enough cards to compete.

In cedh he would be forced to be a stax deck. His best element is his ability to make static orb and collector ouphe great, maybe hall of gemstone. And green really struggles when forced into stax role because the only good stax piece it can find is Ouphe...you wind up with like 10 stax pieces. yuck. :)

Selvala is much stronger in competitive because she draws cards while going off. Rofellos deck would need to play a metric ton of awful card draw effects to try to combo fast.

I do think it's arguable that rof is better in lower power but again I think people don't really give azusa the respect she deserves. :) Rof has a bit of a glass cannon issue and some serious constraints of forest count..

The bottom line is that being a green deck that has tension with cradle and nykthos is a really sketchy place to be.
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 weeks ago
Anyone who thinks rofello would notbe the best green general hands down is a fool. Card is so far beyond the pale in terms of power. I've been playing Selvala Brostorm as my comp deck for 3 years now, and Rofellos would replace selvala in a snap because the chasm of power level between them is so wide, modern metrics cannot measure it. Selvala is so much worse than Rofello it hurts.
I find this take really interesting - I can't help but think it's a bit hyperbolic but Azusa is my main experience with mono-green. I have played against Yisan and brostorm a ton tho. What does your Rofellos deck hypothetically look like? How are you finding your combo pieces and where are you putting the mana?

Did a bit more reading on updated Selvala lists, looks like the Wirewood Symbiote / Temur Sabertooth lines these days would struggle to work with Rofellos due to the forest count, and relying on being able to make a ton of mana. You could probably do some similar things but they'd require a lot of support.

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Post by umtiger » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago

Yes I am 100% sure he can't compete in cedh. He requires too high a land count, can't really play Mana dorks (the most powerful part of mono green) effectively as Mana sources and can't play the slow game he's optimally designed for that uses forest based ramp for resiliency.

His combo pieces cannot be tutored for in green and he will struggle to draw enough cards to compete.

In cedh he would be forced to be a stax deck. His best element is his ability to make static orb and collector ouphe great, maybe hall of gemstone.

Selvala is much stronger in competitive because she draws cards while going off. Rofellos deck would need to play a metric ton of awful card draw effects to try to combo fast.

I do think it's arguable that rof is better in lower power but again I think people don't really give azusa the respect she deserves. :) Rof has a bit of a glass cannon issue and some serious constraints of forest count..

The bottom line is that being a green deck that has tension with cradle and nykthos is a really sketchy place to be.
cEDH and what a card does in cEDH does not dictate the banned list. There is zero way to "balance" a multiplayer format with 40 life where everyone has turn 0 Eladamri's Call. The community should self police [Thassa's Oracle cough cough] the same way the EDH community has self-policed on Armageddon.

Playing forests is not a downside when your upside is Rofellos.

Why wouldn't you play Llanowar Elves in Rofellos?

There is no tension with Cradle or Nykthos. You absolutely still play them. Rofellos is a creature and has maximum devotion.

Rofellos is not a glass cannon. Sram is a glass cannon.

Build the best deck you can out of the generals for $50 (minus the general) and test them out. Then this wouldn't be "arguable" anymore.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

umtiger wrote:
2 weeks ago
cEDH and what a card does in cEDH does not dictate the banned list. There is zero way to "balance" a multiplayer format with 40 life where everyone has turn 0 Eladamri's Call. The community should self police [Thassa's Oracle cough cough] the same way the EDH community has self-policed on Armageddon.

Playing forests is not a downside when your upside is Rofellos.

Why wouldn't you play Llanowar Elves in Rofellos?

There is no tension with Cradle or Nykthos. You absolutely still play them. Rofellos is a creature and has maximum devotion.

Rofellos is not a glass cannon. Sram is a glass cannon.

Build the best deck you can out of the generals for $50 (minus the general) and test them out. Then this wouldn't be "arguable" anymore.
When I give rankings like best, I tend to assume a CEDH power level. Casual is much harder to rank. In CEDH I can give pretty solid numbers, and there I think Rof is 3 or 4.

Playing forests is a downside when you're sacrificing Cavern of Souls, Castle Garenbrig, Eye of Ugin and similar types of stuff.

Why wouldn't I play Llanowar Elves in Rof? Because it's a mana source that isn't a forest. I might play some number of them, but maxing out of mana dorks is going to be really bad in a mid-powered shell where you would much rather play Nature's Lore and even Rampant Growth. In a mid-powered meta you're going to eat a sweeper and Rofellos' gameplan will be much better with a forest on the battlefield instead of a mana dork in the bin. It's way more of an Exploration and Gaea's Touch deck than a mana dork deck imho.

If you look at the better oldschool Rofellos decks most of them were avoiding mana dorks for forest ramp. Obviously the world has changed but I still think the 'optimal mid-powered' rofellos deck would play zero mana dorks. They just do not do what the deck wants to do..

There is tension with nykthos/cradle in that they are 1 mana worse than they would be otherwise since they take away a forest (also they are both a lot worse if you're not running mana dorks, cradle in particular; nykthos can still be great but it's definitely not as good when a larger portion of your deck is sorceries/instants).

I think we are operating on different definitions of what a glass cannon is; sram draws cards so he recovers really well from sweepers. A rofellos deck requires drawing ways to refill its hand and its prone to vomiting its entire hand without refueling as consistently (most mono-green commander decks struggle with this problem if their commander doesn't draw). Sram may be commander dependent but I wouldn't term his build as a glass cannon.

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Post by umtiger » 2 weeks ago

It doesn't matter how many cards Sram draws. If you are blanked on the axis you're playing Sram, you could be discarding to hand size for the rest of the game and still have no hope of winning. To me, Sram is a pure glass cannon.

I guess, if anything, Rofellos is "glass cannon" like Edric.

I haven't built a Rofellos deck in a while, but I'm for sure going to include more than just forests in my Rofellos deck. And non-100% Rofellos lists will have mana dorks. 100% decks with have stuff like Quirion Ranger.

I think you are over selling the sacrifice of utility/ramp lands. For example, Castle Garrenbrig, do you really care about giving it up when you get guaranteed gggggg on turn 3 every game?

T1 forest + elf
T2 elf+elf+cradle + 3 more mana to use on maybe cultivate or cmd like Ezuri?
T3 before dropping anything else you have 3 dorks+2 forest+cradle (gggggggg)

That's not exactly magical Christmas land. You and I can both agree that happens enough, right?

Here's Rofellos:
T1 forest + quirion dryad
T2 forest + Rofellos
T3 forest and now you have gggggggg

So all of those special Cradle starts that you're getting every now and then...is just EVERY GAME for Rofellos. Look, the cradle start is better when you're comparing (and honestly most cEDH decks can have even better ones with Sol Ring/Chrome Mox/etc.). But the Rofellos one is every game.

And why exactly couldn't that cradle start been for a Rofellos deck? Rofellos has just about the highest floor of any legendary creature I can think of. Its floor is the ceiling. It ain't ever getting unbanned as a commander anyways.

I have a Rofellos from way back. I never sold it bc of nostalgia. I cross my fingers about the 99 though.

Yes, I hate playing against Golos too. But are you sure this thread is really about rofellos and not Golos?.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

umtiger wrote:
2 weeks ago
Yes, I hate playing against Golos too. But are you sure this thread is really about rofellos and not Golos?.
If anything it's about kinnan who is basically strictly better simic rofellos.

I think Rofellos would make pretty interesting decks that are very attackable, and probably worse than Azusa most of the time, especially at intermediate power levels. The game has changed so much since the days of Rofel'ing into prime time.

I do agree with you that his floor and consistency are high, but that's not exactly rare anymore. There're tons of hyper-consistent generals out there that are nearly as explosive.

(For your consistency examples, Azusa goes: t1 dork land, t2 land, azusa, land land, t3 land land land (although probably having to do a draw spell in there). Ending with 7 or 8 mana on turn 3 with high consistency -- Rofellos has set himself back a land drop and now has 2 lands on board on turn 3, which is a pretty large sacrifice).

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Post by umtiger » 2 weeks ago

You know that in that example, the Rofellos player is way ahead, right? Quirion Ranger isn't setting you back anything. I don't understand why you keep wording it that way you are wording it? Using the phrase "set himself back" is not fair assessment of what is actually happening.

Just as a Rofellos player is not "holding themselves back" by using more basic forests because there is incentive to doing so. No player ever activates Quirion Dryad to set themselves back a land drop without doing something worthwhile that more than makes up for it.

I mean, give Rofellos T1 Sol Ring and T3 Quirion Ranger = Reshape the Earth. Or cash in that eight green for Azusa and Cultivate and Kodama's Reach.

Azusa requires playing over the normal land count (I would think you would count that as a cost to running Azusa), but I don't see you including a balanced account of that in your analysis.
pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago

If anything it's about kinnan who is basically strictly better simic rofellos.

I think Rofellos would make pretty interesting decks that are very attackable, and probably worse than Azusa most of the time, especially at intermediate power levels. The game has changed so much since the days of Rofel'ing into prime time.

I do agree with you that his floor and consistency are high, but that's not exactly rare anymore. There're tons of hyper-consistent generals out there that are nearly as explosive.

(For your consistency examples, Azusa goes: t1 dork land, t2 land, azusa, land land, t3 land land land (although probably having to do a draw spell in there). Ending with 7 or 8 mana on turn 3 with high consistency -- Rofellos has set himself back a land drop and now has 2 lands on board on turn 3, which is a pretty large sacrifice).
Rofellos decks would not be "interesting." But they do feel awesome to pilot. Having mana is fun. Too many people complain about Sol ring and forget that.

Other generals being more annoying is not best case for Rofellos coming off the banned list.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

umtiger wrote:
2 weeks ago
You know that in that example, the Rofellos player is way ahead, right? Quirion Ranger isn't setting you back anything. I don't understand why you keep wording it that way you are wording it? Using the phrase "set himself back" is not fair assessment of what is actually happening.
Way ahead until a sweeper hits. Then they've spent 8 mana on turn 3 and have 3 or 4 mana on turn 4, unless they ramped hard. The Azusa deck ends up with 7 or 8 lands on turn 4 whether you kill azusa or not and whether they cast another ramp spell or not.

It's definitely a cost to Azusa to play more lands; but they get to weaponize those a bit too. It's a much more resilient deck.
umtiger wrote:
2 weeks ago
Rofellos decks would not be "interesting."

Other generals being more annoying is not best case for Rofellos coming off the banned list.
I dunno, I think it'd be pretty interesting - you have a deck that doesn't need to play cradle or nykthos and ramps in a pretty weird way, and is going to be incentivized to play different stuff than your traditional craterhoof.dec. Rofellos seems like he'd want to play a lot different cards than a typical green deck with higher impact individual cards and probably a higher control quotient.

I don't see how other generals being printed that are much worse and don't get banned isn't a case to revisit rofellos.

Power creep was decidedly a reason why Staff of Domination came off (just as a for instance)

here's the announcement for staff unbanning:
When Staff of Domination was banned, it was one of the most widespread and iconic combo cards in the format. Banning it sent a clear message that turn four wins weren't the gameplay we wanted to see. These days there are plenty of scarier combo cards out there, and Staff of Domination has a valid role as a cool utility card. Neither of these would be enough their own, but together they provide solid reasons to unban the do-anything stick. Please enjoy Staff of Domination responsibly.



The banning announcement for Rofellos was basically an indictment of him putting so much mana out so fast. but if you look at how the game has shifted these days, *everyone* is ramping like crazy. Almost every deck has tons of 2 mana ramp and people play way more mana dorks than they did.

Early in the format, no one would run 10 mana dorks in a deck unless it was elf tribal specifically. People ran 40 lands and Gilded Lotus.

Nowadays decks are 32-35 lands, 15 ramp spells. It was never like that ten years ago when rofellos was banned. It is pretty much expected that you're ramping twice by turn 4 nowadays, or someone will be.

Look at how many signets and talismans people play now, it was nothing like that. Mana Crypt was definitely not mainstream, nor was Ancient Tomb or Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox or whatever.

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Post by umtiger » 2 weeks ago

Look, people just built decks poorly back then. It's pointless to compare or even bring up apples vs oranges.

Who would have thought casual players wouldn't optimize their decks, huh? To add insult to injury, they probably played poorly too.

So you don't think Rofellos would play Tooth and Nail? You think not running Nykthos makes it unique?

I mean all of my current decks are without Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and none of my opponents have ever cared. I hope you think they're cool...I'm running red/black/blue/black ward in my Sram deck. Sol Ring can't cast that crap.

I'm a big Timmy player. I like to ramp. From the moment I played EDH, I knew it was the end all be all. So 10 years ago, I had the ramp package already. Even today, I can have Rofellos ready after an unbanning. But I just can't around to agreeing/supporting unbanning Rofellos.

It's a case to talk to your opponents or ask RC to ban golos or remake the BaC list. Not anything to do with Rofellos as a commander.

I always talk to my opponents. If they have a general that's half a two card combo, I ask if they play the other piece or have restraint. If someone plays Brago, I ask if they play Strionic. I have restraint and prefer to play in games where other people do too. But if they don't, a heads up is all I ask.

For real, build a Rofellos deck up and ask to break it out vs Golos/Kinnan/etc.

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Post by onering » 2 weeks ago

Honestly both Kinnan and Golos should eat a ban, so even if we accept at face value that gem being legal and roflcopter being banned is hypocritical, unbanning Rof isn't the answer. I'd be interested in hearing an argument that delineates why Golos and Kinnan should be banned and Rod simultaneously unbanned.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

onering wrote:
2 weeks ago
Honestly both Kinnan and Golos should eat a ban, so even if we accept at face value that gem being legal and roflcopter being banned is hypocritical, unbanning Rof isn't the answer. I'd be interested in hearing an argument that delineates why Golos and Kinnan should be banned and Rod simultaneously unbanned.
So I'm not honestly sure. their complete lack of banning any of the new horsecrap commanders makes me wonder what the philosophy is anymore. Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is in a way worse than Leovold - he's way more omnipresent because he's not as objectionable, so you can't spit without hitting a Golos.

My thinking is if they can go like two years without banning Golos, maybe their philosophy has become more laissez-faire? If so, maybe it's time to revisit.

I'd surely be fine with Rofellos staying on the list forever if it meant they got rid of Kinnan and Golos, but there doesn't seem to be any discussion of that.

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Post by onering » 2 weeks ago

Eh, I hate Golos and think it needs a ban for several reasons, but dear God Leovold was a lot worse. It was Braids level bullcrap, just lock the game out turn 3-4. An absolutely miserable play style, deployed consistently and early, and it was all over during the period it was legal. Not as widespread as Golos, but close enough, and far worse in terms of it's effect on the game. It's possible to have a good game with Golos at the table, and was basically impossible to do so with Leo. That's not saying that Golos isn't cancer, but Leovold was stage four.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

onering wrote:
2 weeks ago
Eh, I hate Golos and think it needs a ban for several reasons, but dear God Leovold was a lot worse. It was Braids level bullcrap, just lock the game out turn 3-4. An absolutely miserable play style, deployed consistently and early, and it was all over during the period it was legal. Not as widespread as Golos, but close enough, and far worse in terms of it's effect on the game. It's possible to have a good game with Golos at the table, and was basically impossible to do so with Leo. That's not saying that Golos isn't cancer, but Leovold was stage four.
So my personal leovold experience was a lot better because it was so obviously ridiculous no one batted an eye when I asked them to put it away. And at that time, there just were a lot fewer of those kinds of commanders, and most of them were relegated to the competitive tryhards. I only ever had to play one game against Leovold to humor a friend and it was just as bad as expected.

He was just so bad that it was easier to avoid?

Nowadays I have a list of things I know are going to be yawn inducing. Korvold, Fae-Cursed King Wildfire Chulane, Teller of Tales Shrieking Drake Yarok, the Desecrated Sisay, Weatherlight Captain Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - these games are always going to revolve around me spam-killing their commander until I run out of gas.

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary to me is so far less problematic than any of these cards that I don't understand why he's still banned other than maaaaaybe the reserved list argument (although with the RL prices being such a burden on the format I don't see how that's much of an argument; he's going to be $200 on his own just from the reddit financier buyouts).

If the metagame is just supposed to absorb all this crap why can't we play our far more fair cards?

All the other busted commanders on the list are there because they take other people's resources away, but Rofellos has zero in common with any other card banned for being a commander.

Other banned commanders (who were because of the commander list, not because of being busted as a card like Griselbrand ) One of these things is not like the others.



Just to tighten that whole line of thinking up a bit, I feel like - from observations about how the RC is interacting with the banned list - that they have largely given up on 'too much mana too quickly' as a ban criteria.

Cards like Dockside Extortionist don't get any discussion whatsoever (at least, none that I have ever heard), despite that card being ubiquitous, obviously broken, and one of the most played cards in commander. Cards like Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, same way.

Generally speaking they have given up on banning legendary creatures that don't take away resources; we have not seen a legend banned for its role as a commander since Leovold, Emissary of Trest (Iona, Shield of Emeria was more banned as a card, IIRC, not a lot of mono white decks running rampant).

Add all these things together and the game has completely moved on from the situation it was in when Rofellos was banned...eleven years ago, when the metagame was completely different, and having 6 mana on turn 3 was rare. Now it's the norm.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 weeks ago

I think I would actually lean towards "things more busted than Rofellos should be banned" than trying to justify unbanning him because there is more busted things. The more I think about it, the more I wish we would step up and cull a bunch of super busted things with some bannings. I get that for the most part new and powerful cards and or legends don't necessarily ruin this format but there is also a level of power creep due to the top 10 or so most offensive commanders out there that I don't know that we really NEED people playing.

Its true that a lot of these new powerful legends don't hold you down and tell you not to play, but they do spiral games out of control and force games to end much faster due to power creep. I would say that a lot of the worst offenders that come to mind for me tend to be more proactive rather than reactive.

I would rather see the format slow down a little and some of the worst offenders be culled rather than releasing Rofellos from the banned list because we want to race and see how fast our decks can be.
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Bruna | Heliod | Sai | Naban | Anje

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 weeks ago
I think I would actually lean towards "things more busted than Rofellos should be banned" than trying to justify unbanning him because there is more busted things. The more I think about it, the more I wish we would step up and cull a bunch of super busted things with some bannings. I get that for the most part new and powerful cards and or legends don't neccessarily ruin this format but there is also a level of power creep due to the top 10 or so most offensive commanders out there that I don't know that we really NEED people playing.

Its true that a lot of these new powerful legends don't hold you down and tell you not to play, but they do spiral games out of control and force games to end much faster due to power creep. I would say that a lot of the worst offenders that come to mind for me tend to be more proactive rather than reactive.

I don't disagree with you but I think the status quo is unacceptable. If the new policy is Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is OK, then Rofellos should be as well.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
I don't disagree with you but I think the status quo is unacceptable. If the new policy is Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is OK, then Rofellos should be as well.
Maybe we need a thread to discuss Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy :thinking: (i'm not making it lol)
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Bruna | Heliod | Sai | Naban | Anje

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