Should banned as commander come back?

Should banned as commander come back?

yes
48
68%
no
23
32%
 
Total votes: 71

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
3 years ago
RE: conversation above
As with rest of post, just my opinion, but I don't find the manner in @DirkGently portrayed his opinion to be one I normally want to engage with. The quotes Pokken pulled out are good examples. Unless it's a topic which is significantly more important than an opinion/theorycrafting about my hobby that type of rhetoric just makes me disengage. Just a heads up Dirk.
I agree with the summary pokken provided and this comment.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
All that said, I do think that the current printing of overpowered legends is having a nasty effect on the free range metagame, and I think the BAAC list is a potentially viable way to fix it.
This is honestly my biggest fear though I think it might extend beyond just commanders. Commanders are a big problem due to their "always available" status and I believe Wizards is being too "generous" with their designs of Commanders. Or lazy...whichever way you want to frame it. I honestly think they are starting to get into this trap of "rule 0 fixes everything" too. That is, they design things they think would be fun without any concern for balance because rule 0 and the social contract keeps things in check. It is also possible Covid is having an adverse effect here since in store play is greatly diminished so MTGO might be more prevalent where rule 0 and the social contract are less likely to be present.

BaaC does provide a way to mitigate the impact of Wizards poor design choices and sort of allows the format to be protected against any seriously egregious "errors". I think it would be more freely used than the "banned entirely" list as well.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
There are people in my LGS playing Golos (and others) that are relatively fair. Or at least, they were made because the owner thought Golos looked fun and not because they were trying to roll over people. As strong as Golos is, afaik he's not top-tier cEDH. The thing that makes him annoying is that he looks designed for casual but is stronk as hell. Anyway, I wouldn't generalize between public play and group play as far as good intentions are concerned. WotC made Golos because they knew it'd appeal to people. Some of those players are spikes but I think the majority are people who got suckered in by something that looked fun and turned out to be evil.

I agree that the printing of annoying overpowered crap is hurting the free-range metagame. But I don't think reinstituting BaaC would have any real effect. If the RC thought Golos was a problem, they could just ban him outright. As you said, he's not getting a lot of 99 play, so the main disincentive to banning him is people playing him as a commander. But they're not doing that, probably because (1) they know it'd create a negative experience for a lot of people in the format and (2) wotc isn't going to stop printing this sort of stuff. Golos, Kenrith, Sisay, Najeela, Jodah, First Sliver, Ramos, Esika...those are just the problematic 5c commanders from the past few years. If you try to ban all this crap you're going to end up with a constant cycle of people getting excited, making decks, and then having that deck get ripped apart. Not to mention a constantly inflating banlist since there's no rotation. I don't think that's a healthy environment. As much as I dislike how WotC designs cards, I think the problem needs to be solved at the source (if it can be solved at all, which unfortunately I doubt...unless y'all take "solve it at the source" very literally and we end capitalism, and then maybe).

Interestingly Golos is actually a tier 1 CEDH deck now, golos ad nauseam is one of the top decks. It can fetch Boseiju, Who Shelters All and make uncounterable ad naus :P

The second point, I'm not really sure about. I would think wizards would learn from their mistakes. My hopes would be that an aggressive banning of problematic cards would impact R&D and they'd start to learn what is busted in commander.

Given how nearly problem free commander legends was in comparison (with really only Kodama of the East Tree being particularly annoying) I think we have evidence they can do it right. You can't add like 20 new partners to the metagame and have zero of them be worse than the existing ones if you're not learning your lesson somehow right?
WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
This is honestly my biggest fear though I think it might extend beyond just commanders.
I think there's definitely evidence that they are on a bad path with non-commander powerhouse cards. They seem to believe that 10 mana is about the range for a "win the game" effect and that's somewhat problematic in multiplayer where people aren't all running counterspells.

There are a bunch of threads in the forum discussing cards like that, and it makes me think someone at wizards has a basic misunderstanding of how mana production works in commander.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Interestingly Golos is actually a tier 1 CEDH deck now, golos ad nauseam is one of the top decks. It can fetch Boseiju, Who Shelters All and make uncounterable ad naus :P
Lol, well shows what I know about cEDH. They always care about the strangest things. That said I think it's probably a very small percentage of Golos players doing that so I think my point stands.
The second point, I'm not really sure about. I would think wizards would learn from their mistakes. My hopes would be that an aggressive banning of problematic cards would impact R&D and they'd start to learn what is busted in commander.
Possibly, but I think equally likely is that the playerbase gets pissed off at the RC for banning the "sweet" "fun" cards wotc designed, or WotC takes more control over the format (directly or indirectly). It seems like a dangerous move, basically. At any rate I don't think BaaC would move the needle much in terms of the advisability of such a move.
Given how nearly problem free commander legends was in comparison (with really only Kodama of the East Tree being particularly annoying) I think we have evidence they can do it right. You can't add like 20 new partners to the metagame and have zero of them be worse than the existing ones if you're not learning your lesson somehow right?
The pessimist in me says that the reason commander legends didn't push too hard with the partners was because it didn't need to. There wasn't a lot of competition for those who wanted to play partners, so they didn't need to be as pushed. People were going to be interested even if they were relatively weak. But for non-partners, there are thousands of legends out there, and WotC is heavily motivated to drum up excitement for the latest set, and commander players make up a huge chunk of the playerbase. I love the design of Halvar, God of Battle because it's different and interesting and balanced...but he didn't sell a lot of booster packs to commander players. Esika, God of the Tree did, though.

I suspect they'll make fun, balanced, nice commanders when they can afford to, but when they don't have a unique gimmick to provide a cornered market they're going to keep pushing, pushing, pushing. And no amount of pushback from the RC is going to change that because at the end of the day, selling packs is what matters, and balanced cards don't sell packs to commander players.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I agree that the printing of annoying overpowered crap is hurting the free-range metagame. But I don't think reinstituting BaaC would have any real effect. If the RC thought Golos was a problem, they could just ban him outright. As you said, he's not getting a lot of 99 play, so the main disincentive to banning him is people playing him as a commander. But they're not doing that, probably because (1) they know it'd create a negative experience for a lot of people in the format and (2) wotc isn't going to stop printing this sort of stuff. Golos, Kenrith, Sisay, Najeela, Jodah, First Sliver, Ramos, Esika...those are just the problematic 5c commanders from the past few years. If you try to ban all this crap you're going to end up with a constant cycle of people getting excited, making decks, and then having that deck get ripped apart. Not to mention a constantly inflating banlist since there's no rotation. I don't think that's a healthy environment.
I entirely agree with this point, and the evidence is right there in your list of 5color commanders. Frankly, If I was still running Ramos I don't know what theme/plan it would have. I had a deck rotate commander to him from Cromat, then rotate again to Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. I know another player who build with Ramos and went to Niv-Mizzet Reborn as a multicolor CA engine with their charms. With enough power creep, even the current crop of 'problematic' commanders will be left behind. Even Jodah is somewhat outclassed by Golos for the same archetypes.

Long term either the format keep powercreeping, the banned list expands, or Wizards listens to these concerns (arguably they've started this already). I'm hopeful for the latter, especially with 2020 printings compared to 2019 printings. However, if not then the debate about rule-0 groups vs broader/online metagame and banning discussion becomes more relevant. In this scenario, I'd rather see use of BaaC over total banning.
Last edited by Crazy Monkey 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I suspect they'll make fun, balanced, nice commanders when they can afford to, but when they don't have a unique gimmick to provide a cornered market they're going to keep pushing, pushing, pushing. And no amount of pushback from the RC is going to change that because at the end of the day, selling packs is what matters, and balanced cards don't sell packs to commander players.
It's possible you're right. I hope not. They've been doing a ton of really cool ground lately. Even if they just go back through and give some decent support to every parasitic set mechanic it feels like there's a lot of ground.

Kaldheim didn't have any real doozies either, so maybe it's just the beginning of the FIRE era they have to correct for? (Maybe orvar is a bit dumb?)

Call me crazy I guess but I don't think cards like Golos, Tireless Pilgrim** really do *that* much to sell packs, either, but I could be very wrong. I don't really know what sells packs, I never buy them anymore because so few cards appeal to me :P

** outside of the fact that he was also a standard all-star, I guess, lol.

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Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

So this is because we want to play Rofellos and black Braids in our 99, right? I still have a Rofellos and had an monogreen Ezuri deck that I'd rebuild the second Rofellos was playable.

1. Grisebrand is going straight on any list.
2. Iona, ironically, is actually stronger in 99 than commander (mono white general, oh crap). But I guess people (RC) will still hate it
3. Leovold is gone
4. Emrakul is kinda like the same as Iona.
5. Erayo definitely losses it's strength without being a commander. But it's never had the same following as black Braids or Rofellos.

I mean, because it's not like the RC is holding back on some Golos ban because they want to let people play Golos in their 99. And on Golos, if you support Prophet of Kruphix staying banned, well, Golos is just as bad if not worse.

For now, I'll continue to be okay foregoing casting Rofellos for a simpler banned list. But honestly, banning any of the wacky legends from command zone and 99 is practically the same. I've never seen Edgar Markov in a 99.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Call me crazy I guess but I don't think cards like Golos, Tireless Pilgrim** really do *that* much to sell packs, either, but I could be very wrong.

** outside of the fact that he was also a standard all-star, I guess, lol.
Look, Golos is even played in Vintage and Legacy. The card is bonkers. He's pretty much Primeval Titan (a card that is banned) but in the command zone.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

umtiger wrote:
3 years ago
So this is because we want to play Rofellos** and black Braids in our 99, right? I still have a Rofellos and had an monogreen Ezuri deck that I'd rebuild the second Rofellos was playable.

1. Grisebrand is going straight on any list.
2. Iona, ironically, is actually stronger in 99 than commander (mono white general, oh crap). But I guess people (RC) will still hate it
3. Leovold is gone
4. Emrakul is kinda like the same as Iona.
5. Erayo definitely losses it's strength without being a commander. But it's never had the same following as black Braids or Rofellos.

I mean, because it's not like the RC is holding back on some Golos ban because they want to let people play Golos in their 99. And on Golos, if you support Prophet of Kruphix staying banned, well, Golos is just as bad if not worse.
I think if you look at the OP I think it's more because people think that bringing back BAAC would lower the threshold to ban problematic cards in general, not golos specific.

It's tough to say whether that's accurate, honestly. There are good points that most of the problematic commanders printed recently are not super playable in the 99.

** Personally I still find the whole Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary banning to be a complete joke, he'd be the 4th or 5th best mono green commander these days. :P

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Post by capitacommunist » 3 years ago

There's only a couple of cards on the current banlist that would be unbanned if the rule was changed, and most of the commanders that have been mentioned in the thread as potential ban targets are (mostly) unplayable in the 99. I also don't think it would increase the likelihood of problematic commanders being banned, as people want to play with these cards as commanders and not as part of the 99 - therefore meaning that the majority of the community will not see it as a major difference. And I do think that in a game as complex as MTG and commander, rules complexity should be kept to a minimum. Therefore I voted no.
Although I agree that in the last years there have been some pushed commanders, I think this is because these pushed designs are popular and help to drive the set sales (otherwise why would WotC keep on designing them). This will therefore not end any time soon. Most of them however can be dealt with, and I would personally only wish to see Golos, Chulane and Aesi banned. Each of these is more difficult to deal with as they naturally negate commander tax upon hitting play whilst generating huge advantages if they remain on the battlefield. But as mentioned, having a banned in commander option will not solve the problem, and none of these cards is very interesting to have in the 99 either (in my opinion).

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

umtiger wrote:
3 years ago
So this is because we want to play Rofellos and black Braids in our 99, right? I still have a Rofellos and had an monogreen Ezuri deck that I'd rebuild the second Rofellos was playable.

1. Grisebrand is going straight on any list.
2. Iona, ironically, is actually stronger in 99 than commander (mono white general, oh crap). But I guess people (RC) will still hate it
3. Leovold is gone
4. Emrakul is kinda like the same as Iona.
5. Erayo definitely losses it's strength without being a commander. But it's never had the same following as black Braids or Rofellos.

I mean, because it's not like the RC is holding back on some Golos ban because they want to let people play Golos in their 99. And on Golos, if you support Prophet of Kruphix staying banned, well, Golos is just as bad if not worse.

For now, I'll continue to be okay foregoing casting Rofellos for a simpler banned list. But honestly, banning any of the wacky legends from command zone and 99 is practically the same. I've never seen Edgar Markov in a 99.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Call me crazy I guess but I don't think cards like Golos, Tireless Pilgrim** really do *that* much to sell packs, either, but I could be very wrong.

** outside of the fact that he was also a standard all-star, I guess, lol.
Look, Golos is even played in Vintage and Legacy. The card is bonkers. He's pretty much Primeval Titan (a card that is banned) but in the command zone.
With the current banned legends it varries. I wouldn't say that bringing back banned as a commander would actually adjust many of those if they did bring it back. Leovold and mayyyyybe Erayo of the ones you mentioned would be the only ones that would maybe shift to banned as a commander. Emrakul was banned back when banned as a commander was still a thing and they entirely banned it for years before banned as a commander left. G Brand is busted as all hell in any and every way that he can be played in this format and there is no way he would ever be playable in any sort.

I am of the thinking that essentially as soon as we started getting commander specific decks we started getting a strong power creep on commanders. I think we really need to have a large culling of the more problematic commanders. I know its not what the RC wants to do but fire design has been bad for magic and recent years have power crept the hell out of a few commanders. Some of the "must answer" commanders might be a little more than is needed in this format. I would 100% be on board with expanding the banned list to add some of the worst of the power crept legends out there.
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I feel like BaaC, had it never been rescinded, may have safeguarded the format from stuff like Golos, Chulane, and Kinnan, but these commanders are so popular that it would be impossible to put the genie back in the bottle now. I will say that even very casual players are recognizing how effortlessly powerful these commanders are, and they do often end up joining the table in rallying against them.
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Post by illakunsaa » 3 years ago

I think the entire ban list should just go away. EDH is a very local meta dependent format. Trying to apply a global banlist just seems pointless when each meta is different from each other.

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Post by Treamayne » 3 years ago

illakunsaa wrote:
3 years ago
I think the entire ban list should just go away. EDH is a very local meta dependent format. Trying to apply a global banlist just seems pointless when each meta is different from each other.
Please, no. Pubstompers ruin enough games already.

This might be fine for players that have playgroups. But in a random environment (Conventions, MTGO, etc.) we need more controls, not less. I would rather the Ban List take a "White List" approach rather than the "Black List"* approach it currently uses. I would rather see many of the culprits in this thread on a list that says "Hey, don't use these unless your playgroup agrees;" then stable playgroups can keep on keeping on as they have where these aren't a problem. However, public random venues will not have to deal with them as their default setting is "banned."

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- a "White list" is block many and use a list for what is allowed
- a "Black List" is allow many and use a list for what is blocked
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Treamayne wrote:
3 years ago

I would rather see many of the culprits in this thread on a list that says "Hey, don't use these unless your playgroup agrees;" then stable playgroups can keep on keeping on as they have where these aren't a problem.
I do sometimes wish the banlist was interpreted more like this and had a more stuff on it. I wouldn't mind if there were two.lists, a super bad and just a bad :P

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

First, bringing back the BaaC list doesn't mean Griselbrand and Emrakul are legal in Commander. There will always be some cards that should not be legal in the format.

It does allow the RC to promote a more diverse Commander experience by banning commanders that to do much on their own. Golos, Kinnan, Erayo, Braids and Rofellos all make sense to be banned as commanders.
I would even say Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge should be banned as a commander, as Esika is basically broken in the command zone.

The main benefit is allowing people to play with cards they own
The secondary benefit is allowing the RC to ban problematic commanders while still allowing people to play with them in the 99.

I would love to play Golos in a 5 color deck. But everyone and the lamp-post knows that it is broken in the command zone.

And if somehow returning BaaC would bite me in the rear and ban a commander I really like, then so be it!
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

Treamayne wrote:
3 years ago
I would rather see many of the culprits in this thread on a list that says "Hey, don't use these unless your playgroup agrees;" then stable playgroups can keep on keeping on as they have where these aren't a problem. However, public random venues will not have to deal with them as their default setting is "banned."
I don't see a fundamental difference between what you described and the format's preexisting philosophy and accompanying ban list.
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Post by gsgfdf » 3 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
I would even say Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge should be banned as a commander, as Esika is basically broken in the command zone.
I strongly disagree with this take. What is so broken about a 5-cmc enchantment that cheats a card into play on your next upkeep?

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

gsgfdf wrote:
3 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
I would even say Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge should be banned as a commander, as Esika is basically broken in the command zone.
I strongly disagree with this take. What is so broken about a 5-cmc enchantment that cheats a card into play on your next upkeep?
It is not cheating 'a card'. It cheats what you put in your 99. It's isn't Golos grabbing the top 3 spells. It leads to gimmicky decks.
It is too slow for cEDH, and too consistent for casual magic. Can you think of any commanders that do the same thing?
Prismatic Bridge says you can play interaction, ramp, sweepers, etc - just no creatures other than your finishers.

I don't know what you all see, but I find it very annoying to play against this card. Gets played turn 3 or 4, and then you get one of these every turn:
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Progenitus
Blightsteel Colossus
Sphinx of the Second Sun
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Avacyn, Angel of Hope

Again, I am not saying it is as strong as Leovold and it definitely isn't worthy of cEDH... but it only makes for uninteresting games, in my opinion.
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Post by illakunsaa » 3 years ago

Treamayne wrote:
3 years ago
illakunsaa wrote:
3 years ago
I think the entire ban list should just go away. EDH is a very local meta dependent format. Trying to apply a global banlist just seems pointless when each meta is different from each other.
Please, no. Pubstompers ruin enough games already.

This might be fine for players that have playgroups. But in a random environment (Conventions, MTGO, etc.) we need more controls, not less. I would rather the Ban List take a "White List" approach rather than the "Black List"* approach it currently uses. I would rather see many of the culprits in this thread on a list that says "Hey, don't use these unless your playgroup agrees;" then stable playgroups can keep on keeping on as they have where these aren't a problem. However, public random venues will not have to deal with them as their default setting is "banned."
Sounds like pubstompers are the problem and not really the cards.

Maybe there should be a people ban list instead of card ban list.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

one sided Oath of Druids the 5 color commander is pretty dumb whether it's "broken" or not, I agree. I would get bored of playing against that deck pretty fast.

I just don't know what goes through designers' minds when they make crap like that. "oh, this will be fun! commander players like playing the exact same game every game right?"

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago

illakunsaa wrote:
3 years ago



Maybe there should be a people ban list instead of card ban list.
I keep advocating for @cryogen to be banned...but I'm ignored...
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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
3 years ago
illakunsaa wrote:
3 years ago



Maybe there should be a people ban list instead of card ban list.
I keep advocating for @cryogen to be banned...but I'm ignored...
They ignore you because I'm not legendary and can't be a commander already.


======

Largely ignored this thread because the topic comes up frequently, and I answered Shivam directly on Twitter when he posed it, as well as Sheldon's follow-up which Hermes repeated in the OP (which is what prompted the thread).

However, a question to ask yourself if you answer yes to the question is "does this card i want put on the BaaC list see play in the 99?" Because many multicolor generals that might be BaaC-worthy don't actual get played otherwise, meaning it is effectively a full ban. At which point, just keep things simple and ban it altogether.

One thing I would like to add though is to revisit the philosophical question of "what is the purpose of the ban list". And I this format at least, I would argue that it guides more than restricts. In other words, while it takes cards away from players, it also tries to guide games towards what the RC hopes people find to be enjoyable. And it is also a teaching tool, since it highlights the types of cards and strategies to avoid (im not going to go off on that tangent of discussing whether it is successful or even a good idea). In this sense, the BaaC list would serve to tell players "hey avoid playing generals likes these because of what they do and the kind of decks they build".
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

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gsgfdf
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Post by gsgfdf » 3 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
gsgfdf wrote:
3 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
I would even say Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge should be banned as a commander, as Esika is basically broken in the command zone.
I strongly disagree with this take. What is so broken about a 5-cmc enchantment that cheats a card into play on your next upkeep?
It is not cheating 'a card'. It cheats what you put in your 99. It's isn't Golos grabbing the top 3 spells. It leads to gimmicky decks.
It is too slow for cEDH, and too consistent for casual magic. Can you think of any commanders that do the same thing?
Prismatic Bridge says you can play interaction, ramp, sweepers, etc - just no creatures other than your finishers.

I don't know what you all see, but I find it very annoying to play against this card. Gets played turn 3 or 4, and then you get one of these every turn:
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Progenitus
Blightsteel Colossus
Sphinx of the Second Sun
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Avacyn, Angel of Hope

Again, I am not saying it is as strong as Leovold and it definitely isn't worthy of cEDH... but it only makes for uninteresting games, in my opinion.
I kinda like the concept of getting a random bomb every turn. I love cascade and its random yet controllable nature.
While I understand your frustration about how consistent Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge can be, I think there is room for a fun deck, in the same vein as Maelstrom Wanderer.

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
However, a question to ask yourself if you answer yes to the question is "does this card i want put on the BaaC list see play in the 99?" Because many multicolor generals that might be BaaC-worthy don't actual get played otherwise, meaning it is effectively a full ban. At which point, just keep things simple and ban it altogether.
I disagree with this completely. I would play Golos, Kinnan, Esika, Derevi in the 99 (currently only own Derevi and want to put it into a deck I have). They are fun cards (which is why people build decks around them so much). They are just frustrating in the command zone. Similarly, I would run Rofellos and Braids in the 99. I used to run Braids, and I bought Rofellos in case it were ever legal in the future. I don't see how banning Braids makes sense as far as 'guiding people on how to build decks' when you have Rankle, Master of Pranks playing in a similar space. Same for Rofellos vs. Kinnan. The current banned list picks on old cards while new cards do more. None of the old banned as commander cards caused issues. And now there is a tension where the RC doesn't want to ban new cards that do the same and more because they don't want to take cards away from people. I would rather play against Rofellos than Kinnan. Both make absurd amounts of Mana, but only Kinnan turns that into card advantage.
gsgfdf wrote:
3 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
gsgfdf wrote:
3 years ago


I strongly disagree with this take. What is so broken about a 5-cmc enchantment that cheats a card into play on your next upkeep?
It is not cheating 'a card'. It cheats what you put in your 99. It's isn't Golos grabbing the top 3 spells. It leads to gimmicky decks.
It is too slow for cEDH, and too consistent for casual magic. Can you think of any commanders that do the same thing?
Prismatic Bridge says you can play interaction, ramp, sweepers, etc - just no creatures other than your finishers.

I don't know what you all see, but I find it very annoying to play against this card. Gets played turn 3 or 4, and then you get one of these every turn:
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Progenitus
Blightsteel Colossus
Sphinx of the Second Sun
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Avacyn, Angel of Hope

Again, I am not saying it is as strong as Leovold and it definitely isn't worthy of cEDH... but it only makes for uninteresting games, in my opinion.
I kinda like the concept of getting a random bomb every turn. I love cascade and its random yet controllable nature.
While I understand your frustration about how consistent Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge can be, I think there is room for a fun deck, in the same vein as Maelstrom Wanderer.
I play Maelstrom Wanderer. People seem to think that you constantly cascade into 7 drop threats. No. You hit mana rocks. You hit your library manipulation cards. The Prismatic Bridge lets you ignore your artifacts, enchantments, instants and sorceries. I don't play wraths in Maelstrom Wanderer. My only counterspells are modal. It is random.
Primatic Bridge has a 100% success rate of hitting a threat. Also, it is 5 mana, not 8.
I get that the Bridge is a bit slow, but when it isn't immediately destroyed you are facing Progenitus on turn 4 and it's dumb.
People aren't going to load their Prismatic Bridge decks with mana dorks. The 'random' aspect you like is 'which of my game-ending threats will it be this turn?'
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

I can get Rof vs Kinnan, as Kinnan should be banned, but hard no on Rankle vs Braids. Rankle has to connect (admittedly not hard), but more importantly he can only hit cards in hand or creatures, and if someone doesn't have the stated resource then he does nothing to them. He also is truly symmetric, making everyone sac or discard at the same time, while Braids makes the opponents go first. And Braids makes you sac an artifact, creature, or land. The reason this matters is because she can force land sacs early, something Rankle is completely incapable of, and that's why she was BAAC and now banned. She could come down early (made more consistent by her being in the CZ), and force each opponent to sac a couple lands. before you let her die, basically locking them (and that's if you didn't manage to drop something like Bitterblossom to keep her out indefinitely and just win). If Sol Ring was in your opening hand, bam, turn 2 Braids, your opponents better have an immediate answer. Bad as Rankle can be, he doesn't approach Braids in the CZ levels of bs.

As for Wanderer, hitting Mana rocks etc isnt bad, ramping when you play your commander is busted because it helps get around tax, see Golos. A 7 power hasty beater that ramps or brings threats every time he's cast is gross. I'm not sure he's quite deserving of a ban because he can be built not to be BS, but he's certainly closer to Golos than Prismatic Bridge is in that it doesn't really matter how you build him, he does what he does. Golos being a hard yes ban it doesn't make Wanderer bannable, I lean to him not being so. Prismatic Bridge can be built to be BS, but its more open ended and you can build fun random decks with it. You can build it where everything is 5 color good stuff non creature/pw interaction and card selection, with a few busted finishers for Bridge to cheat out, but if you don't fine tune it like that its fine. I haven't actually seen much of her yet so I can't say which build is going to be the dominant means of playing her, or if the problem build even if dominant is going to be played enough to matter. I can see her potential to become a cancer, but I don't know if she will, and I see the same potential for her to be fun. She's unique in terms of her kind of commander, the one that has the potential to be kill on reveal, in that you can know pretty early what version she is if her pilot drops a creature early. Her pilot drops Stoneforge or Mother of Runes or some other good but not Bridge good creature and you know you aren't facing "lol turn 6 free Ulamog."

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago

So,sheldon wrote an article about this https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... good-idea/
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Bringing back Banned as a Commander (BaaC) is a suggestion that crops up from time to time on social media. It's a conversation worth exploring, if for no other reason than the fact that the question is constantly recurring.

First, I'll address the biggest misconception. We on the Commander Rules Committee (RC) don't think that the concept is too difficult for players to handle. Magic players are smart. They can definitely process the additional list and the arguments behind its existence and which cards might go on it. The reason we removed the category isn't its complexity, but in the necessity. The major part is that you don't make format-level rules for corner cases — in this one, we were doing it for three or four cards. One of the things we on the RC value is simplicity, especially when it comes to communication. A single banned list is crisp, clean, and straightforward to communicate. It's not the highly invested player that we're targeting here, but the legion of the more casually invested. In this thing, we're serving as their voice.

There's a valid argument that we should be crafting the format for the more highly invested player. After all, as the argument goes, they're the ones on whom our decisions have the most impact. They're the ones (pre- and post-COVID) going to events at their LGS or Grands Prix and CommandFests to play the format. The kitchen table players are just going to do whatever they want anyway. That argument, however, belies the truth of the format's popularity.

One of the reasons that we've become monumentally successful is that we've catered to the vast group of players who until we came along didn't have a voice. The idea that someone was looking out for them truly resonated, as we've focused on what matters to that group: stability, simplicity, and de-emphasis on competition. That stance — and not wavering from it despite immense pressure to do so — has translated into Commander becoming the most popular format in Magic. Leaning towards the most highly invested segment of the player base would then be abandoning what got us here in the first place. It would attempt to make Commander into the same as other formats, which is the one thing we absolutely don't want to do. This format will continue to exist on its own terms.

Accepting that we don't want to try to make Commander just like other formats, we can still break down the argument of whether or not bringing back BaaC is a good idea. One of the major drivers of this conversation is what happens if the number of commanders that would go on the BaaC list makes no longer a corner case? What if there are a dozen or more offenders? Would that make it time to resurrect the category? Let's continue along the line that it might be.

A significant part of the Philosophy Document is this sentence:

Each game is a journey the players share, relying on a social contract in which each player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved–this promotes player interaction, inter-game variance, a variety of play styles, and a positive communal atmosphere.
In short, it means we want to do our best to prevent as many miserable games as possible. What miserable means is highly subjective, but we have a pretty good idea of where the biggest chunk of common ground lies. For the most part, it means taking the game away from the other players. We understand that games have to end, but the most negative experiences come from players feeling like they haven't ever gotten started. This isn't vilifying resource-denial strategies or those who play them; it's recognition that our target demographic enjoys a particular openness to their games.

We can also look at the types of things that will get cards banned. Again, from the Philosophy Document, this includes cards which easily or excessively:

Cause severe resource imbalances
Allow players to win out of nowhere
Prevent players from contributing to the game in a meaningful way.
Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic.
Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck-building.
Interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format or the specific rules of Commander.
Lead to repetitive game play
Operating under that guidance, we can come up with a list of candidates for BaaC.

Before we get there, I'll address what is a common misconception from supporters of the pro-BaaC argument. Part of the draw of the idea is that it would free up some cards to be playable in the 99. In the end, the move would shackle more cards than it frees. The poster children represented here are Braids, Cabal Minion; Erayo, Soratami Ascendant; Griselbrand; Leovold, Emissary of Trest; and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn might also fit.

Of those, I'd without a doubt keep Erayo and Leovold banned, and likely Griselbrand. The first two are an easy case — they without a doubt and without much work prevent players from contributing to the game. Erayo is especially heinous because once flipped, with generally trivial effort, it locks out others for free. One wheel with Leovold simply takes the other players out of the game. Griselbrand is a better Yawgmoth's Bargain, getting you the cards right away and proving the answer to getting more.

The others can likely be freed. The worst sin of Braids is when it's easily available out of the command zone on Turn 2, basically ending the game before it gets started. With the added necessity of having to tutor for it to get it early, it seems safe. Rofellos is borderline, although it doesn't seem much worse than Metalworker. Emrakul is the most borderline. Outside the command zone, it can't be Entombed and Reanimated, so it seems reasonably safe, but with easy access to it in the command zone, it could be problematic.

What new cards would then go on the BaaC list? We'd first have to answer why they'd go on the list despite not currently being banned. The easy answer is that they're fine (at least mostly so) in the 99, but they're undesirable coming out of the command zone. The reason that we'd pick them although we haven't done so already is that we've taken a more liberal view of banning cards, which is the whole reason we've reintroduced the category in the first place.

Looking back at the Philosophy Document, we can glean a few answers, although it feels like we might need to stretch in some places. This list would combine two factors: crafting the format more towards the kinds of games we'd like to encourage and identifying cards that are actively creating a negative environment. While we lean strongly towards the latter currently, having the aforementioned more liberal bent in adding banned cards suggests that the former can carry nearly equal weight.

For the purposes of this list, we'll lean a bit away from our current idea of banning cards as exemplars, although they can certainly still serve that function. I'll first make the argument for why each of these cards (many of them with relatively high salt scores on EDHRec) would go on the list before addressing the counterarguments.

The combination of keyword soup in an inexpensive package and the ability to easy create oppressive Superfriends deck would warrant Atraxa, Praetors' Voice's inclusion on the list. Having four colors in the casting cost isn't all that much of a restriction because one of those colors happens to be green, allowing for easy ramp and color-fixing.


Maybe the least offensive card on the list, Chulane offers excessive rewards at no cost for doing what you're going to do a lot of anyway, namely cast creatures. Its major sin is leading to incredibly repetitive play. It might also lead to a compelling argument that Tatyova, Benthic Druid might also belong here, but that seems like way too much of a stretch.


If we're actively discouraging deck styles that take away the game from other players, then Derevi merits inclusion for its easy ability to break the symmetry of Stax cards like Winter Orb. Funny that circumventing the commander tax isn't its top problem. It didn't just push the envelope, it shredded it. There is simply too much going on for such an inexpensive card.


Golos does serve as an exemplar, but this one for designers, who are making five-color commanders that don't cost five colors to cast — a trend that can quit at any time. The problem is that players get the advantage of choosing from any card in Magic while not having to pay the associated cost for the flexibility. Ubiquity is also an anti-Golos argument. According to EDHRec, it's the most popular commander, in greater than 20% more decks than the number two choice, Atraxa. This is the kind of fatigue the format doesn't need.


Another card that simply takes away the game from other players, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV's compounding factor is that it also accelerates its controller. We actually don't mind slowing down Commander games if it's symmetrical. GAAIV is anything but. It's the first card that I knew I was going to add to the list.


Continuing on the same theme, being able to build around Hokori, Dust Drinker and guarantee it coming out of the command zone stops the other players from being in the game unless someone happens to have an answer in hand on that critical turn. By the time they get untapped enough to cast something, Hokori's controller is likely to be too far ahead to catch up to.


Narset suffers a little from the Paradox Engine problem. It's mostly oppressive but it doesn't always work, forcing players to suffer watching it maybe happen. The build for Narset is to add all or most of the extra turn spells, which basically leads to one player hogging the action while three watch. That's not a particularly enjoyable game for 75% of the players and it's certainly not the kind that we want to encourage.


For the most part, players don't mind when you copy their stuff, but stealing it is a horse of a different color. Sen Triplets robs a player of any agency while you're stealing their stuff, which is what leads to its high Salt Score — even slightly higher than Narset.


Braids free in the 99 is only a small one of the anti-Tergrid, God of Fright arguments. Tergrid might be okay if it had only one of the two abilities (either sacrifice or discard) instead of both — although the discard part plus Mindslicer is still pretty icky. No matter what, it would still lead to a style of deck that doesn't much suit fun and interactive play. It's a card that definitely fine in the 99 but is a monster coming out of the command zone.


Although we lean more towards the more subjective fun angle, Urza, Lord High Artificer is one that could go based on power level. The issue is that it's frightfully easy to build an overpowered deck with to win on very early turns. Faster Commander games are not better Commander games. Sure, you can just shuffle up and go to the next one, but why bother if it's just going to be the same all over again, which is what Urza brings from the command zone.


In the same vein as GAAIV, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger speeds you up while slowing everyone else down. In mono-green, it's frightfully easy to get it going Turn 3 or Turn 4, making the game pretty one-sided rather quickly.

Other commanders that I considered for the list were Korvold, Fae-Cursed King and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, although in the end, neither seemed oppressive enough. As I mentioned, Emrakul is the most borderline, since it's not difficult to cast it by Turn 6, it can't be countered, and the extra turn is a cast trigger. If I were leaning towards being the most safe, I'd probably add it to the list instead of waiting to see if it caused too much havoc. I'm sure there are a few others that folks would nominate as potential candidates, but the list isn't all that large.

All those arguments made, I'm going to upend them. As it stands right now, bringing back BaaC still isn't worth the effort. It might (stress on the "might") lead to a healthier environment in the long term, but the short-term pains would be extreme.

While we could do without a few of the cards, many of those that would go on the list are some of the most popular commanders in the game. Folks have invested significant time and resources into their decks. That alone isn't a reason to keep around unhealthy cards, but it's certainly a consideration. The only compelling reason to reinstate BaaC is if there would be enough cards to make the extra layer of administration worthwhile, so paring down the list doesn't make sense. If the cards are that oppressive, outright banning is enough.

Additionally, even though there are some styles which we feel are on the whole could be unhealthy in high enough doses, we want to support the diversity in play styles that has become the hallmark of the format. Everyone being able to find their particular niche is one of the things that Commander is all about.
I copied it to make it easier to quote here
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

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