Should banned as commander come back?

Should banned as commander come back?

yes
48
68%
no
23
32%
 
Total votes: 71

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Maelstrom Wanderer is pretty much the case in point for why repeatedly accessing something from the command zone is ridiculously different than in the 99 from a banning perspective.

The various flip sorcery commanders are kind of similarly problematic in lesser ways.

Maelstrom Wanderer is, as a card, *mostly* completely fair. it costs so many manas. But when you can just build a deck in such a way that you have guaranteed massive payoffs for your ramp spells in the zone, and it is really an issue.

And this is not to say that we should ban Wanderer, just that the current banning criteria are unable to deal fairly with cards like Wanderer who are perfectly fine as a top end bomb in elemental tribal, but have little business being at the helm of a deck.

(Wanderer has mostly rule-zero'd and obsoleted out of the game at this point; I still play my deck every now and then and it still roflstomps uninteractively and I'd shed no tears if it were banned; but you know what's driven it out of the metagame? Golos, Tireless Pilgrim being worse :P)



I will say that at the rate they are banning stuff nowadays (not until it's so egregious that literally the entire cosmos cries out in horror at the card's presence) I'm not really sure BaaC would help anything. But the hope really is that:

1) they would up the ante just a little from a banning perspective
2) being able to BaaC would make that more palatable

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I think a big problem with upping the ante from a banning perspective is that it's a lot harder to draw the line than it used to be. Banning Erayo back in 2010 or whatever was pretty easy because, in addition to being powerful, his only goal is to lock people out, so few people were unhappy. But a lot of the format's most powerful, obnoxious, and common commanders these days are "fun" in terms of generating lots of value and looking like classic commander cards - golos, chulane, wanderer, korvold, muldrotha, yarok, esika, etc. If you ban (or baac) them all, you're killing a pretty huge number of decks and making the format feel a lot less stable. If you kill just a few, there are plenty more near-equally-annoying commanders to migrate to. And either way, WotC is pretty much guaranteed to print more in the near future. To a certain extent, I think the RC kinda has to shrug their shoulders and let peer pressure/rule 0 sort things out, because trying to separate the "ok amount of value" from the "not an ok amount of value" would be a quagmire that leaves a lot of players unhappy.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I dunno, as I go down the list of commanders I find I hate them a lot less as they get into the 20-30 range, and the list gets progressively less annoying as you go down it.

I think they could make a massive impact by banning 10 or so problematic commanders and then keeping up on that as new ones get released.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

---not to spam but my wishlist would be:

golos, tired pilgrim
korvold, king of casual wildfires
chulane, teller of pods that my deck is casual
atraxa, superfriends is casual right?
yuriko, didn't learn from Derevi did you?
Sisay, Weatherlight Shuffler
Urza, Lord of Normalizing Winter Orb in Casuals
Yarok, because EDH wasn't enough about ETBs
Kinnan, heard you like tapping llanowar elves for 2
Thrasios, 4c infinite colorless mana sink
And as I went down the list it was actually hard to pick more than 7 or 8 that I really want to see go and think would be a good move. Thrasios, Kinnan and Yarok are kinda self-policing to an extent. Korvold/Chulane are somewhat too actually, although they are such horrible experiences when you do see them that I'd shed no tears.

I think almost everyone agrees that Golos adds negative fun to the format, so if you started with Golos and then periodically hit one more as it rises to the top I think you'd make a really measurable improvement. Wizards is not going to keep printing those dudes.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Okay, let's just take your top 7 then.

Golos - 7374
Korvold - 5714
Chulane - 4004
Atraxa - 5504
Yuriko - 4781
Sisay - 3976
Urza - 2869

Total - 34222/459817 = 7.44%

So just to be clear, the thing you want to do is delete almost 1/12 of the format. I guess that's less disruptive than Thanos, at least?

And tbh, that still wouldn't nearly do it, at least imo. I've never played against a Kykar deck that wasn't threatening to storm off if its commander lived for a single turn. I think Esika, while less popular, has the potential to be every bit as nasty as Golos, tbh probably significantly stronger. People are always complaining about Markov and Derevi. Kess is another kill-on-sight commander. Same for Niv Parun. Animar is cancer too. Najeela...bleh. Leave her alive for a second and the game is over. Zur, I mean, Zur is classic "kill me or lose" material. Some people really hate Oloro (although I don't personally give a crap). Jhoira, another obnoxious kill-me-or-lose-to-some-tedious-storm-crap commander. Brago, barf. Gitrog, kill or die. Jodah, weaker than Golos but creates similarly obnoxious experiences. Narset, wins in the most tedious way possible when she attacks and has hexproof, seriously get %$#% Narset. Inalla I hardly see people play but she is legit broken. Liesa seems to annoy a lot of people. Tergrid, yuck, I groan every time I see that. Prossh, oh boy, can't wait to see how long it takes them to tutor for food chain this time. Rakos LoR, gotta kill him or stupid things are going to happen extremely quickly. Maelstrom wanderer you yourself mentioned as being a good baac. Orvar, gotta kill him and then his deck does stone nothing, so that's fun. Selvala, heart of mono-green combo, kill it with fire.

Do I need to go on here?

Everyone has different experience - while I look at Golos and see "yep, that's incredibly powerful", I haven't had negative experiences against him and I've really enjoyed playing my Sorrow's Path version, even if the commander puts it on the high end of power for casual (imagine, sorrow's path being too strong of a deck, lol). For that matter, every Yuriko deck I've played against has had an incredibly threatening start followed by absolutely nothing and then lost. Atraxa I don't really see as a big problem, she just doesn't do anything that broken imo. Even in superfriends, eot trigger means she has to wait a turn cycle before ulting anything that couldn't be ulted without her. Korvold, Chulane, Sisay, and Urza I've had some annoying experiences against, but tbh they really weren't that bad from my recollection. I've had worse experiences against Kykar, Niv Parun, Animar, Orvar, Narset, Jodah, even Rakdos LoR. And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you play online? I don't think you can really make assessments about the paper format based on experiences online.

I also think the idea that WotC will see these things getting banned and their heart will grow three sizes and they'll stop printing pushed commanders is wishful thinking. WotC NEEDS to print these busted commanders, because we all made commander the #1 format with a bullet, and eternal formats suck balls for selling new product. So they've gotta get people's attention with the new shiny stuff. I suspect that this whole push into new IP is an alternative strategy so they don't have to rely 100% on power creep to appeal to commander players. But pushed designs are proven money makers, all the ones you listed are quite popular, so they will guaranteed keep coming back to that well. If the RC bans them years down the line, as you're recommending now, WotC will most likely shrug and keep doing it. They made their money, why would they give a crap that a card that sold packs in 2019 turned out to be a bad investment for the players? They're laughing all the way to the bank.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

I don't see why a change has to fix everything to be worth doing. Banning a couple of the current worst offenders would help, and would make the format better. Future bans, closer to release, could send a signal to WotC if they keep printing blandly OP generals, after an initial few bans to set the tone.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think WOTC already has made major improvements in the printing of OP crap, so cleaning up the mistakes as they were getting into more commander stuff might be a one-time thing or nearly one-time thing. There was a bit of a bonanza over a couple sets and it's really been reined back in.

Kodama/Sakashima were the most busted thing in Commander Legends (and are really not that problematic at all) and if you look at the most powerful stuff from recent sets it's like... nothing anywhere close to as bananas as Golos, Tireless Pilgrim.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
I don't see why a change has to fix everything to be worth doing. Banning a couple of the current worst offenders would help, and would make the format better. Future bans, closer to release, could send a signal to WotC if they keep printing blandly OP generals, after an initial few bans to set the tone.
The problem is human nature. If you ban the most OP stuff, most people (who don't just quit because the format has suddenly become much less stable - don't most people play commander as a way to avoid standard?) will just move on to the next most annoying thing. The reason these powerful commanders are popular is because people LIKE powerful commanders. You can't fix that. Not with a thousand bans.

And if the RC actually started taking a chunk out of WotC's bottom line, you'd better believe that WotC would take action. And if bans don't hurt their bottom line, then WotC won't care. I don't think there's any room for a middle ground where wotc benevolently says "ohhh, you don't LIKE it when we make a ton of money by printing obnoxiously powerful commanders! We had no idea! We'll totally stop doing that now!"
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think WOTC already has made major improvements in the printing of OP crap, so cleaning up the mistakes as they were getting into more commander stuff might be a one-time thing or nearly one-time thing. There was a bit of a bonanza over a couple sets and it's really been reined back in.

Kodama/Sakashima were the most busted thing in Commander Legends (and are really not that problematic at all) and if you look at the most powerful stuff from recent sets it's like... nothing anywhere close to as bananas as Golos, Tireless Pilgrim.
So first of all, "cleaning up the mistakes" is still going to erase a huge percentage of the format. You're talking about dropping an atomic bomb no matter how you slice it. The RC has made, idk, maybe 1 banlist change per year on average, at best? You're dreaming if you think they'd do anything close to that extreme, and frankly that's good. This is a casual format, we don't need a constantly shifting banlist constantly throwing our decklists into jeopardy.

Kaldheim came out after Commander Legends, and it had Tergrid, Esika, and Orvar. All of whom can die in a fire, and wouldn't you know it, are the top 3 commanders from that set. Galazeth's not that far off from Urza with an extra color either, and Yusri is a casual 3-drop that draws 2.5 cards per turn with zero support.

Don't play the fool by saying "They've changed! They haven't printed anything obnoxious and broken for...wow, almost 6 whole months! Clearly they're never going to do another Golos!" They've pulled back on power level for AFR for sure, I suspect because they're hoping that the IP alone will bring new players in. But don't assume that one set without any major incidents is a sign that they've made a permanent change. Don't fall for it.

Most people playing this format WANT broken crap. If WotC stops catering to them, they will lose a lot of money. And WotC HATES losing money.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

I'd honestly just say Golos and Chulane, Sisay as maybe and Korvold a somewhat distant 4th. All 4 were incredible design mistakes, but especially Golos and Chulane, and both of those being BaaC'd would go a long way towards both improving the format and sending a message that they were bad designs and WotC needs to not push value engines so hard. Korvold being more restricted because he needs to sacrifice stuff makes him somewhat less of a problem, and I could live with Korvold being the biggest design mistake in the format. Sisay is about on par, but being a tutor to the battlefield commander and being in 5 color makes her a bigger problem over all.

Yarok probably isn't broken enough, or omnipresent enough, to deserve a ban. I don't think super friends is, on its own, a banworthy thing, even with Atraxa giving access to 5 colors and proliferating. As wizards prints more ways to hurt PWs, Atraxa superfriends will become less and less of a problem. Kinnan and Yuriko are as bad design mistakes as Sisay and Korvold, but they'd be the next tier down to watch for me, along with Kenrith. They might me bannable, but only if banning the other crap causes them to become the new broken thing that everyone plays. As it is, they aren't quite prolific enough, nor as easy mode linear as Chulane, to merit a ban. Kinnan tends to be more cEDH or highest powered casual, while Yuriko also is but also shows up helming fair ninja decks in enough numbers to matter. I'm not really seeing Urza show up in casual, even on mtgo. He's pretty clearly a cut throat commander and people play him accordingly. The only time I've seen him in casual games is when I run him helming an "only sets Urza has appeared in" theme deck. Finally, I think Thrasios is fine. His ability is a great mana sink, but at 4 mana is marginal enough advantage to not be overwhelming in an otherwise casual deck. His value goes up the more competitive the deck is in a pretty linear fashion. He's popular because he's generically good, cheap, and a UG partner, and being a UG partner is probably the most important part of that.

So, I'd personally start with 2 of those BaaC'd, in addition to bringing in Erayo, Braids, and Rofellos as BaaC, for 5 cards. Possibly growing to 7-9 depending on how the loss of Golos and Chulane changes the meta, specifically whether Korvold, Sisay, Kenrith, and Yarok end up replacing Golos and Chulane or if those pilots just choose other decks. And even Kenrith is a big maybe for me, because unlike Golos he doesn't just do the same thing every game, and I often see him as a back up value engine, so even if he does fill in a lot of the gap left by Golos he might still be fine.

onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
I don't see why a change has to fix everything to be worth doing. Banning a couple of the current worst offenders would help, and would make the format better. Future bans, closer to release, could send a signal to WotC if they keep printing blandly OP generals, after an initial few bans to set the tone.
The problem is human nature. If you ban the most OP stuff, most people (who don't just quit because the format has suddenly become much less stable - don't most people play commander as a way to avoid standard?) will just move on to the next most annoying thing. The reason these powerful commanders are popular is because people LIKE powerful commanders. You can't fix that. Not with a thousand bans.

And if the RC actually started taking a chunk out of WotC's bottom line, you'd better believe that WotC would take action. And if bans don't hurt their bottom line, then WotC won't care. I don't think there's any room for a middle ground where wotc benevolently says "ohhh, you don't LIKE it when we make a ton of money by printing obnoxiously powerful commanders! We had no idea! We'll totally stop doing that now!"
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think WOTC already has made major improvements in the printing of OP crap, so cleaning up the mistakes as they were getting into more commander stuff might be a one-time thing or nearly one-time thing. There was a bit of a bonanza over a couple sets and it's really been reined back in.

Kodama/Sakashima were the most busted thing in Commander Legends (and are really not that problematic at all) and if you look at the most powerful stuff from recent sets it's like... nothing anywhere close to as bananas as Golos, Tireless Pilgrim.
So first of all, "cleaning up the mistakes" is still going to erase a huge percentage of the format. You're talking about dropping an atomic bomb no matter how you slice it. The RC has made, idk, maybe 1 banlist change per year on average, at best? You're dreaming if you think they'd do anything close to that extreme, and frankly that's good. This is a casual format, we don't need a constantly shifting banlist constantly throwing our decklists into jeopardy.

Kaldheim came out after Commander Legends, and it had Tergrid, Esika, and Orvar. All of whom can die in a fire, and wouldn't you know it, are the top 3 commanders from that set. Galazeth's not that far off from Urza with an extra color either, and Yusri is a casual 3-drop that draws 2.5 cards per turn with zero support.

Don't play the fool by saying "They've changed! They haven't printed anything obnoxious and broken for...wow, almost 6 whole months! Clearly they're never going to do another Golos!" They've pulled back on power level for AFR for sure, I suspect because they're hoping that the IP alone will bring new players in. But don't assume that one set without any major incidents is a sign that they've made a permanent change. Don't fall for it.

Most people playing this format WANT broken crap. If WotC stops catering to them, they will lose a lot of money. And WotC HATES losing money.

I don't think its necessarily true that most people want to play broken crap, so much as it is that most people don't want to lose all the time and the presence of broken crap beating them means that they adopt the broken crap themselves to have a good time. Most students don't want the lawn to be a muddy mess, but it ends up that way if there's nothing keeping them on the paths and they all cut across the lawn, and what ends up is everyone is unhappy. Its not a paradox that people generally hate facing broken nonsense and then turn around and play it themselves, its adaptation.

And of those Kaldheim commanders, while Tegrid is unfun crap, its unfun crap that is CLEARLY unfun griefer nonsense that doesn't promise Timmy a good time, and that the table immediately recognizes as kill on sight even if they have little experience with it. Esika is a far less broken free spell card, limited to one a turn. While you can cheese it by including only a few targets, I've more often seen people throw in a bunch of fat to flip over every turn like its Momir Basic. Its a far, far more appropriate level of bonkers than Golos, and while its breakable you have to set out to break it and can easily avoid doing so (unlike Golos and Chulane, which you have to actually try NOT to break). Orvar is another commander that you have to set out to break, and unlike the worst stuff from 2019 he's not a commander noobs pick up and build a miserable deck with doing nothing more than adding the cards from 4-5 drafts to a precon.

I get that nuking 12% of the format is a bad idea, so I disagree with pokken on going that far. You point out that the RC bans about a card a year. I'm asking for 2, Golos and Chulane, then revisit the rest, up to 2 at a time, yearly. There's no reason everything has to be done at once, and I suspect that getting rid of the worst offenders would make the format better enough without the fallout that getting rid of all of them would.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

onering wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think its necessarily true that most people want to play broken crap, so much as it is that most people don't want to lose all the time and the presence of broken crap beating them means that they adopt the broken crap themselves to have a good time. Most students don't want the lawn to be a muddy mess, but it ends up that way if there's nothing keeping them on the paths and they all cut across the lawn, and what ends up is everyone is unhappy. Its not a paradox that people generally hate facing broken nonsense and then turn around and play it themselves, its adaptation.
That might be true for some people, but I think it's a small minority. I think hardly anyone is unhappily playing something broken. I think most of them enjoy how powerful it is.

I was trawling Reddit yesterday and looked at the spoiler for Sefris of the Hidden Ways. Tons of people complaining about the "once per turn" clause that stops the card from being absolutely disgusting. They WANT powerful cards. They want cards that do something fun, too - I don't think anyone wants a commander that just says "win the game" on it - but so long as the thing they're doing is fun, they want it to be just about as powerful as possible. The students are protesting the building of fences,

Of course, the format as a whole would be a lot better if the power levels were more even, but there's just no way that's happening. Trying to fix it with 2 bans is like trying to flatten a mountain with a piece of sandpaper.
And of those Kaldheim commanders, while Tegrid is unfun crap, its unfun crap that is CLEARLY unfun griefer nonsense that doesn't promise Timmy a good time, and that the table immediately recognizes as kill on sight even if they have little experience with it.
She's also really popular. She's #1 in the set even above the obviously-commander-targeted Esika, and I've seen her get played quite a bit personally. I think she has more casual appeal than you expect.
Esika is a far less broken free spell card, limited to one a turn. While you can cheese it by including only a few targets, I've more often seen people throw in a bunch of fat to flip over every turn like its Momir Basic. Its a far, far more appropriate level of bonkers than Golos, and while its breakable you have to set out to break it and can easily avoid doing so (unlike Golos and Chulane, which you have to actually try NOT to break).
Golos also requires you to dump all your mana into him and might whiff. Esika requires no mana and can't whiff. Golos becomes especially nasty if you include time magic, Esika becomes especially nasty if you narrow your targets. Both are beatable in a more casual build but still generate a ton of value. I think they're pretty damn close in power level, but tbh if I wanted to build a balls-out-brutal deck I think I'd play Esika over Golos because Golos puts much more significant deckbuilding restrictions on you even if his ceiling is higher.
Orvar is another commander that you have to set out to break, and unlike the worst stuff from 2019 he's not a commander noobs pick up and build a miserable deck with doing nothing more than adding the cards from 4-5 drafts to a precon.
That's probably true in spirit, but which 2019 precon are you talking about? I can't think of any precons that become outright oppressive without a fair bit of work (though I also think most precons can win a reasonable power level of game when piloted well).
I get that nuking 12% of the format is a bad idea, so I disagree with pokken on going that far. You point out that the RC bans about a card a year. I'm asking for 2, Golos and Chulane, then revisit the rest, up to 2 at a time, yearly. There's no reason everything has to be done at once, and I suspect that getting rid of the worst offenders would make the format better enough without the fallout that getting rid of all of them would.
Maybe to you that seems like the simple solution, but from what I've seen everyone and their mother has a different opinion on which "the problem commanders" are. No matter which ones you ban, there will be equally obnoxious stuff still available and popular, and there will always be people eager to play it. If you mathematically found the top 2 most problematic commanders and banned them, it would still do basically nothing for the format imo, and it would piss a lot of people off and make the format feel significantly less stable. Those Korvold players are suddenly feeling a lot more anxious that their favorite deck is about to get banned.

You also have to remember that banning a commander is a huge difference from banning a card in the 99. In a lot of cases it might just erase the whole deck, which is a "screw this format I'm going home" moment for a lot of people. The only commanders that have been banned in the past decade have been either rarely played (Iona) or only played by griefers (Leo). Banning even just one card, if it's the most popular commander in the format, would be a huge deal to a lot of people.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I don't think that even nuking all 10 of my top hated list does anything close to "nuking 10% of the format" - those decks are not buildaround decks for the most part. with the exception of Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow and Atraxa, Praetors' Voice you can just straight up put a new commander in with minimal changes and you still have the deck. Which is part of the problem with those cards. Chulane, Teller of Tales is another one I guess that is a deck design but good riddance to that deck. not like Cloudstone Curio combo is a new thing.

Re: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice

Specifically re: atraxa. She is actually one of the cards I'd most like to see BaaC'd. If you've played extensively against her (as I have) and with her (as I have) you probably see that she is one of the least fun commanders on either side of the board ever.

Her deck builds monopolize game time in absurd ways, making people take hours resolving planeswalker activations, proliferate comboing, adding massive numbers of counters to things.

And this is all before her ridiculous basket of keywords completely trashes combat decks and her vigilant lifegain makes her so difficult to race by any but the most dedicated aggro deck that she might as well have a virtual +40 life or so.

And the worst part of Atraxa is that she has to be the most difficult commander to accurately estimate the power level of I've ever seen. Her keywords just absolutely crush casual decks. When I was playing my Atraxa deck with the fallen empires and mirage counter lands as the main theme, I would just play her and casual decks would lose to me bonking them and making it impossible to attack in by putting +1/+1 counters on her. My deck was a heaping dumpster fire of crap and any time I played it against casuals I utterly dominated the game time as well as the game.

Man I hate Atraxa. I might hate her personally worse than Golos :P I have literally not one time seen an Atraxa deck sit at a table and not completely dominate the attention of everyone, for good or ill.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I'm not sure which commanders you think aren't build-arounds. The only one of them that that doesn't warp strategy around it is Thrasios (and that's still not entirely true, as there's only one alternate partner with the same CI so he's hard to replace, plus there are outliers like my 98 land deck where Thrasios is the key card to the whole deck or decks trying to get infinite mana to combo with him, although idc about those decks much personally).

While you could say "well just replace Korvold with Prossh!", that's kind of a superficial view. While they're both sacrificed-themed, they do very different things. Korvold requires fodder but generates a lot of value and a wincon, and also wants some extra sac outlets since he's usually once-per-turn. Whereas Korvold provides the fodder and a sac outlet, but doesn't really get much value without synergies. Maybe some decks would be okay with a straight-across switch, but imo that's very low-level deckbuilding. Anyone with an inkling of what they're doing is going to have to make huge overhauls to switch those two.

If they even want to. My favorite example is if my Zirilan of the Claw deck got banned. If someone said "well that's okay, just replace it with Lathliss, Dragon Queen" I'd tell them to piss off. The two cards might superficially have some of the same synergies, but they play very differently. If I'd wanted to build Lathliss I would have built Lathliss. Zirilan is the one with the ability that spoke to me, and that can't be replaced.

My experiences with Atraxa don't match up with yours. Superfriends in general is annoying, but I don't find her to be particularly oppressive as a commander. I won't claim to be an expert on her, but she's been one of the most popular commanders since she was printed, and I've seen as many decks around her as you'd expect for that pedigree. I'm not sure there's much that can be said to bridge that particular divide between our viewpoints, but I suppose it's not particularly important. To me, the main thing I see is another example of how everyone has their own bugbears in the format, and there's no banhammer wide enough to fix that.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

To weigh in here on problem commanders being banned as commanders with a bit of an anecdote, somewhat in support of @pokken's arguments -- I have a Yuriko deck. It's quite literally ninja tribal, as in, it includes every single non-changeling ninja printed in black border Magic to date, and it includes no topdeck manipulation or time magic, to try and make it as fair as possible. Yuriko is still incredibly powerful, though, so I can understand why people would want her gone. I just use her as the commander because she's the most flavorful option, and also yes, I do like being able to be in the game versus even the tougher decks, even if I'd also rather not start an arms race if I can avoid it. You know what I'd do if she was banned as a commander? Swap her to the 99 and Vela the Night-Clad to the command zone. I'd probably also add some extra draw engines to the 99, but that's no big deal either really. If Yuriko was completely banned, by contrast, I'd be kinda pissed, because I like the card, and I like the creature type, and I like the ninjutsu mechanic, and there aren't really all that many good ninjas to begin with anyway.

Now, I'm not sure how much of an outlier I am generally, but I do know that I'm not that much of an outlier in my group, which consists of a bunch of the regulars at my LGS, plus anyone else who happens to wander in that day looking for a game, so it's not like this only applies to people in particularly tight, stable groups either.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

There are many ways to build a deck, and a lot of people do tend to build in that manner. That said, for me if I had a Yuriko deck, the idea of simply switching to Vela would give me conniptions. She has no synergy with high cmc or top deck control, but does provide evasion (making all the evasive 1-drops yuriko play somewhat pointless and also redundant). Vela pays off for ninjutsu to a certain extent (though imo kinda minor) whereas Yuriko pays off for ninja typing. They have some overlap, sure, but if I build both decks, even if they were both ninja tribal, they'd look quite different.

Looking on EDHrec, 75% are playing Slither Blade, 62% are playing Temporal Trespass, 67% are playing Arcane Adaptation...these are cards that don't make a lot of sense with Vela but make a ton of sense with Yuriko. EDHrec might skew a bit enfranchised, but I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that most people would need to change quite a few cards to accommodate a Yuriko ban, if they're even interested in the deck anymore with such a huge shift. Those who just like the word "ninja" printed halfway down their cards might be satisfied, but anyone who's more interested in the deck's play patterns is a lot more likely to just give it up, imo.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

Personally, I've seen a massive drop off in Tegrid after a couple of weeks of Kaldheim being released. MTGO, which means a wider variety of players than most people see in person. There was an immediate and strong anti Tegrid reaction. Being an obvious greifer card isn't just a signal to people who would consider running it, but to the entire table. Players saw it and knew exactly what it was going to do and said "nah, that %$#% not gonna live, and neither are you." Do I believe a lot of people built her? Yeah. Do I believe that she's still the most played commander from the set? Hell no, I think a lot of those decks on EDHRec got taken apart quickly after people realized revealing her meant they'd be the archenemy without being good enough to actually win. EDHREC only shows decks that people posted, whether or not they actually built them, and regardless of how long people actually played them. It may be the best resource we have, but it still sucks for getting an actual read on what things actually look like.

Yeah, banning a commander does a lot more than banning a card in the 99. Being a problem as a commander also has a bigger impact on the format than a card in the 99. Saying "oh no, banning it would upset the people who play it" isnt an argument. If a card is a problem, then it's a problem, and it being popular isn't an excuse. Indeed, being widely played is actually a red flag that the RC takes in to consideration when deciding whether to ban a card. If a card is hurting the format, it should be banned. I bet a lot of people were super sad that Hullbreecher just got banned as well, boo hoo.

I'm not looking to fix the whole format. Banning 2 cards won't do it, but it's not an argument to just throw up your hands and say "well, banning 2 cards won't fix everything so we shouldn't even bother." Banning them would make the format better, and what's important is that it makes the format better enough, not that it completely fixes every problem. The banlist has never been exhaustive, and has always been a way to get rid of the worst offenders and send a signal about what the format should be. Getting rid of the two most egregious do everything value engines would accomplish both of those things. While it's possible that a handful of other cards might rise to that level in their absence, they can also be banned for the same reason. Will other annoying and powerful things replace them? Yes. Will just one annoying, powerful thing replace them? Probably not, and that's a significant improvement.

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Those who just like the word "ninja" printed halfway down their cards might be satisfied, but anyone who's more interested in the deck's play patterns is a lot more likely to just give it up, imo.
Sure, but if the play patterns of Yuriko are causing problems for the format (probably precisely because of the 75% with Slither Blade, the 62% with Temporal Trespass, and the 67% with Arcane Adaptation), then a ban to stop that from happening may make sense. Even if it does, though, there's no need to also hit the handful of people stuffing their decks with evasive ninjas and ways to make their ninjas evasive, plus a small handful of the most flavorful ninjutsu enablers with the splash damage, which is precisely the point of going BaaC rather than just full-on ban.

I believe that's @pokken's real argument here (though he should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). The people who are causing problems for everyone else getting their toys taken away isn't the concern here, because pokken thinks they should have their toys taken away. The unnecessary splash damage is what everyone arguing for the return of BaaC is concerned about, I think. Some amount of that is unavoidable, yes, but we should work to minimize it. This is of vastly greater importance than the extremely minor level of additional complexity from a BaaC list alongside a traditional ban list.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

If Yuriko was the only problem commander (tbh it doesn't even seem that problematic in my experience) then that would be one thing, but the problem I mentioned earlier is that there's a ton of problematic commanders all of whom, imo, are at kinda the same-ish level.

The other thing is a matter of opinion: I don't think losing a card from the 99 is a big deal. I see people complain about bans in the 99 and I don't really get it. To me, losing a commander would be devastating, losing a card from the deck would almost universally be pretty minor, barely an annoyance. So I personally don't see much value in allowing a commander to be legal in the 99, whereas I see banning a popular commander as a really big deal. Imo that makes baac basically a pointless bit of complexity.

Yuriko is kind of a convenient example since it is one of the few playable ninjas, and would definitely see a decent amount of fair play in the 99 for whoever still plays ninjas post-baac. The currently-banned commanders are all relatively unfun by most standards, so I don't think there's much benefit to unbanning them in the 99. To justify baac, first you've gotta ban Yuriko or some other fun-outside-the-CZ-but-obnoxious-in-it legend, which is putting the cart before the horse imo. I'd say Yuriko is way down the list of bannable commanders for me.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

I'd consider Good and Chulane to be fairly fun bombs outside of the command zone in most decks that can run them. As far as the ones that I'd have on a watchlist, Korvold and Urza are still bombs in any Jund sacrifice or Ux artifact deck, respectively. High impact value engines like that are fun, provided they don't consistently come out every game and get recast reliably in decks that show up every other game.

Like I said earlier, I'd suspect the BaaC list would be 5-7 cards, rising to perhaps 9 in a few years. I'd consider all of those to have roles to play in the 99 of decks.

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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Anyone's thoughts or feelings changed in the last year or so on this? It came up in response in the Random Card of the Day thread because of Chulane and I didn't want to hijack that thread since it's moved on. I'm all in favor of bringing back Banned-as-commander, the idea of an adjustment period being traumatic seems silly to me, there's always one when something gets banned or unbanned. Certain sections of the internet spiral in a conflagration of rage and then cool off, with a few grudge holders on both sides unwilling to let things go.

But overall, people adjust. Bring back banned as commander, dammit. I want to play with Rofellos again.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

If you want to ban Chulane, go nuts. I've no love lost on him. I agree that people will probably get mad then calm down. Same for any problem card, though especially for commanders.

Don't see any reason why that justifies bringing back a pointless rule like BaaC. Just ban him like every other format bans cards.

I do find this juxtaposition amusing:
kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
...a few [...] unwilling to let things go.
I want to play with Rofellos again.
How long has he been banned? 8 years?

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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Roflcopter would be a totally 100% fine unban not respective of this rule. I stand by that. He adds a different style of mono green in a format that has largely left mono colored commanders behind.

I'm kinda softening to my desire to see baac back. I think it would make them faster to ban commanders which I am for in general but I just care very little. I've started just refusing to play against toxic generals and it has done wonders for my experience. I'm not sure they would ever ban enough commanders to measurably improve the format at this point.

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

I hate to say it but kind of nothing has really changed on the arguments for this topic. Banned as a commander was better but it added additional rules complexity. The RC doesn't see it as worth the added complexity even at a healthier banned list. I don't really see anything having changed since they did away with it in their eyes.

I just wish we could get a few more commanders banned in some light or another. But.... I wish more %$#% was banned all around. I for one also wish we had it back but I also see the reason the RC made their move and I don't see any reason since then that would make them change their stance.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

kirkusjones
Disciple of Dumb
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
I do find this juxtaposition amusing:
kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
...a few [...] unwilling to let things go.
I want to play with Rofellos again.
How long has he been banned? 8 years?
Hoisted on my own petard.

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Gentle Giant
It's all jank, always has been
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
I hate to say it but kind of nothing has really changed on the arguments for this topic. Banned as a commander was better but it added additional rules complexity. The RC doesn't see it as worth the added complexity even at a healthier banned list. I don't really see anything having changed since they did away with it in their eyes.

I just wish we could get a few more commanders banned in some light or another. But.... I wish more %$#% was banned all around. I for one also wish we had it back but I also see the reason the RC made their move and I don't see any reason since then that would make them change their stance.
I corrected 3drinks on the complexity misconception, so once again: complexity is not the reason. Elegance of the ruleset and avoiding 'corner case' rulings for a minor set of cards are some of them (but not all!)
Here's their most recent article on it: https://articles.starcitygames.com/magi ... good-idea/

Concerning BaaC: I'd like it to be back, as it's a powerful tool to manage an equally powerful mechanic within EDH; the access to a specific card from start to finish each game. At the same time, I can see regular bannings achieving the same kind of balance that has been clamoured for in this thread. Because that is essentially what most pro-BaaC arguments have been in this thread: "cater towards a low-/mid-powered level, where commander removal isn't necessary every turn-cycle".

I also think remove-or-die commanders are an issue for the format, but that's because I hate the whack-a-mole gameplay they create and like to play at a level where the power they have is problematic (euphemistically speaking).

However, just like @DirkGently has said a year ago: there are numerous reasons to play this game, with fulfilling a power fantasy being one of them. Saying it like that makes it sound bad, but playing games to feel powerful isn't wrong, it's a very common motivation for what makes a game fun. Competence is one of the three core pillars of a prominent theory on intrinsic motivation, and power fantasies deliver heavily on that front.

So, to achieve a format without these kinds of commanders would require us to A) eschew a part of the playerbase that plays this game for power fantasy reasons, which should be an acceptable reason to play; B) remove commanders from the game that can be built flavourfully or in other ways that allow for self-expression (a goal more common in low/mid power level); C) heavily increase the rate of banning as Wizards will print new cards that are too strong for their own good (banning cards is always a feels-bad in EDH, even when it's justified); D) invalidate a large segment of decks: we've seen this with the banning of Golos already, a lot of people lost their deck, not just a card. Especially building a deck and then having the commander get banned shortly after is a recipe for a lot of feels-bad.
Reason C is also a big departure of the current RC approach to bannings and changing that will make people more vocal about banning in general (I know, slippery slope perhaps, but I feel this one is palpable/reasonably arguable).

Overall, that just seems too much cost for the gain of a segment of the playerbase.

So, in the end, I'm in the same boat as @pokken : you just have to avoid the people who play for different reasons than you do. I do get that that isn't an option for everyone and that is where it stings. Coming back to trust: not only on a player-to-player level do we differ in our preference of the amount of trust we need to put in our fellow players and their deckbuilding preferences, there's also different levels of trust put into the RC (Koster has another interesting piece on trust which relates to how we perceive the RC: https://www.raphkoster.com/2006/02/06/on-trust-part-ii/). These differences impact how we relate to the format and how it's managed, which for some is too hands-off due to the amount of self-organizing they would have to do themselves to achieve their desired pod.
Remember: not everyone is intent on 'growing as a player', analysing their meta and adapting to it, etc. For some people, Magic is just another board game.

Decklists:
A boy and his dog: an adventure (Rograkh & Yoshimaru) | Storytelling, Jank, Cute
Averna, Roulette Croupier: Cascade Chaos | Cascade, Chaos, Group Choices
The Ur-Dragon Tribal Tribal | Randomized Batches, Diverse, Quirky
Zirda, Patron Goddess of Trash Artisanry | Trash for Treasure, Artifact Aristocrats, low-powered

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