Thassa's Oracle / Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

[WizardMN]

I do think you need to play blue, because blue is the control color. Blue is the main color with counter abilities, as that is kind of the identity of the color. If every color could stop every counter, what is the point of running different colors? There are pro's and con's/strengths and weakness's to every color, that is what makes them unique

Yeah, that is what I figured you were talking about. But that isn't a good answer. You're saying that my Karador, Gisela, Windgrace, and Marchesa decks (and Varina to be honest since she isn't a control deck) *should* just lose to Oracle?

Also the main way to beat oracle isn't to stop oracle itself, its to stop the effect that empties the library.

Which has the same problem. Only blue can reliably do that. Saying a card or interaction is fine because 1 color can deal with it disingenuous at best.

I don't expect black to have an answer to Thassa's Oracle, it isn't what black is supposed to do. Just as I don't expect blue to have an answer to blacks life manipulation. Black isn't supposed to interact heavily on the stack.

That is the whole point.....the problem with Oracle is that the only way to deal with it is on the stack or the trigger which both require a single color. It's fine that black shouldn't do that; it is less fine that black just loses to it.

To me, I see the color wheelhouse and look at what I want to do. Big creatures? Green. Control? Blue. Life gain? White. Reanimate? Black. High risk/reward? Red. I see the colors for what they should be best at and build into those strategies. For my Jund deck, I know I am vulnerable to removal and control, because I am not in the colors to protect myself. So instead I built in resilience so the deck can take a hit and recover. Every color shouldn't be able to stop everything. That would make the game very boring very fast.

The argument isn't about what colors do what things or allowing every color to do everything. Sure, my Black deck won't counter your Cryptic Command. And my Blue deck isn't going to get a cheap Grave Titan from the yard. Your Jund deck was built with resiliency and the ability to rebuild. I do that as well. And that is great. Back and forth, swinging punches, is good for the game. Each does their own thing to work towards ending the game.

But there is no coming back from Oracle. There is no real way for Jund to stop any piece of that combo so no matter how you built your Jund deck, you just lost. With no hope of actual interaction. We are talking about an interaction that requires a singular color to interact with it at all or the game is simply over. Very few cards have the same issue. And that is the problem.

I shouldn't have to sit down against a blue deck and force myself to play blue just because they might be playing Oracle. And, even worse, not be able to play any other deck beyond blue once I know they are playing Oracle.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting but your stance seems very much in the camp of "well, play blue or lose to Oracle". Which sucks (and is a bit asinine). And I say that as primarily a control player. If the only answer to a specific interaction is "play blue and hope to have a counter" those games become way less fun to play.

[UnNamed1]

Perhaps I am misinterpreting but your stance seems very much in the camp of "well, play blue or lose to Oracle". Which sucks (and is a bit asinine). And I say that as primarily a control player. If the only answer to a specific interaction is "play blue and hope to have a counter" those games become way less fun to play.

I am not saying "only play blue". However, I view using Oracle as a win-con a more highpower/cedh wincon. The overwhelming majority of cEDH decks have blue, so that they can have interaction on the stack.

If you are losing to oracle/consultation in your causal games, you'd be understandable upset. Yet these are not casual cards in that sense. If you are losing to Oracle because they have their devotion over 20 and milled/drew their library that low, they deserve the win IMO.

There are plenty of house bans/unbans, if you think the card is that big of a deal. If someone becomes reliant on that card to win the game, sit down with the sole intention of countering Oracle and never let it onto the battlefield. They will leave the strategy fairly quickly in my experience once they stop winning with it. It is a fragile win-con, show them that.

[pokken]

That is the fundamental issue with oracle combo. It's 1) very efficient and 2) requires blue to interact meaningfully (or red/white very very narrowly in cards that do not see a lot of play).

That's fine and well and good if it's only played in CEDH though I maintain personally that it's not particularly healthy in CEDH.

If it starts dripping into casual it's a real problem interaction. Nothing is anywhere near as efficient.

[WizardMN]

I am not saying "only play blue". However, I view using Oracle as a win-con a more highpower/cedh wincon. The overwhelming majority of cEDH decks have blue, so that they can have interaction on the stack.

If you are losing to oracle/consultation in your causal games, you'd be understandable upset. Yet these are not casual cards in that sense. If you are losing to Oracle because they have their devotion over 20 and milled/drew their library that low, they deserve the win IMO.

There are plenty of house bans/unbans, if you think the card is that big of a deal. If someone becomes reliant on that card to win the game, sit down with the sole intention of countering Oracle and never let it onto the battlefield. They will leave the strategy fairly quickly in my experience once they stop winning with it. It is a fragile win-con, show them that.

The RC has stated that the Flash ban was a one time thing for cEDH. And, for now, I trust that is true. Which means every ban discussion is based on the cards and interactions in non-cEDH games.

So, while cEDH has a lot of blue, that can't be a point of discussion for a topic like this because it is irrelevant.

Which I guess is a big part of my disagreement. We seem to be approaching this from two different viewpoints and the non-cEDH viewpoint is the one we should be viewing it from based solely on the fact that this card is not getting banned in EDH because of issues in cEDH. So the discussion needs to be around how "bad" it is in non-cEDH and if it warrants a ban there. And that is where I think most of your arguments fall apart.

In any case, the point being made is still the inability to interact with Oracle (I am choosing to focus on Oracle because Jace does have legitimate interaction in basically every color). As of right now, I am not sure if the number of games ending to Oracle is high enough to warrant a ban, and I don't know how fast people are attempting to win with it or if there are certain games where self-mill or exiling library are becoming more commonplace to make Oracle work. But I believe that at least recognizing the threat Oracle has to EDH has merit even if that threat isn't that great now.

It may never reach the levels of necessitating a ban but that is why these threads exist; to at least put a voice to both sides in terms of how much people see it as a problem. As of right now, I don''t believe it deserves one but that doesn't mean the non-interactivity isn't a problem and it would be the main factor (in my opinion) that would lead to any potential ban.

[onering]

Consultation into Oracle is unlikely to be seen much in non cEDH games, but Oracle is very easy to fetch and there are plenty of ways to lose the library, or at least get it lower than your devotion to blue. I don't think Oracle should only be judged by whether Consultation is also being ran alongside it, but by it's own impact on non cEDH games. If it starts to be how a lot of games get decided, that's a problem. Unlike Jace and especially labman, only blue can reasonably interact with Oracle. There's a lot of potential here for Oracle to have a centralizing impact on the format, but it hasn't happened yet. I think its the sort of card that could get banned but isn't destined to. It doesn't hit enough red flags yet, but that's because it isn't hitting the red flags that can change. It has problems inherent in it's design, but so far those problems haven't been leveraged enough in casual to push it into banworthy territory.

[umtiger]

I am not saying "only play blue". However, I view using Oracle as a win-con a more highpower/cedh wincon. The overwhelming majority of cEDH decks have blue, so that they can have interaction on the stack.

If you are losing to oracle/consultation in your causal games, you'd be understandable upset. Yet these are not casual cards in that sense. If you are losing to Oracle because they have their devotion over 20 and milled/drew their library that low, they deserve the win IMO.

There are plenty of house bans/unbans, if you think the card is that big of a deal. If someone becomes reliant on that card to win the game, sit down with the sole intention of countering Oracle and never let it onto the battlefield. They will leave the strategy fairly quickly in my experience once they stop winning with it. It is a fragile win-con, show them that.

I agree that non-cEDH games where devotion in the 20's, Oracle is okay. Yet strangely enough, then some other people would argue that that Nykthos is too strong. So you can't please everyone. But that isn't the point that is being brought up. Every point that you decided to bring up were probably reasons to justify a ban.

It should be argued that even cEDH players are tired of Oracle. A win-con being so compact and resilient is not particularly enjoyable to play against game in and game out. And as was evidenced by Flash, people who play cEDH seem largely unable to house ban even in their own interest.

And to be clear, I am totally against banning Oracle solely for cEDH. It's not worth catering to that part of the community. They berate you into banning Flash because of power-level and at the same time will sneer at you for banning "weak" cards like Prophet of Kruphix.

[BeneTleilax]

The OP is explicitly not about cEDH. To the best of my understanding, cEDH has Oracle handled now, and Jace hardly showed up there. The issue is people using them to pubstomp casual. If I had to guess, I think a lot of these are incompetent cEDH players who'd gotten used to Flash as a crutch, and are now taking it out on regular EDH. The question is whether it's worth it to ban these, or wait for houserules once people realize how obnoxious they are in casual.

[ISBPathfinder]

Being the OP I guess I can elaborate, the player I mentioned who was using a Toothy deck plays budget decks. I have never seen him play a card that is worth more than $30 and so seeing him regularly pub stomp with his own budget Toothy deck was concerning. I don't actually think I have seen him lose with that deck and we all know its coming whenever he plays it. That entire deck is probably like $100-300 and he made it himself. The guy doesn't own any fetchlands. His toothy deck still kills us on average between turns 4 and 8 though and it defends itself with plenty of Aetherspouts / counterspells. The whole deck is things to power draw him and then counters / anti attack effects. Its brutal.

Flicker that guy a few times and you draw your whole library. Its really simple and fast and it doesn't take much $$$ to build.

[umtiger]

Being the OP I guess I can elaborate, the player I mentioned who was using a Toothy deck plays budget decks. I have never seen him play a card that is worth more than $30 and so seeing him regularly pub stomp with his own budget Toothy deck was concerning. I don't actually think I have seen him lose with that deck and we all know its coming whenever he plays it. That entire deck is probably like $100-300 and he made it himself. The guy doesn't own any fetchlands. His toothy deck still kills us on average between turns 4 and 8 though and it defends itself with plenty of Aetherspouts / counterspells. The whole deck is things to power draw him and then counters / anti attack effects. Its brutal.

Flicker that guy a few times and you draw your whole library. Its really simple and fast and it doesn't take much $$$ to build.

Well, budget and power level aren't the same thing. Which is a big reason why I won't agree with people who says EDH is too expensive. Anyone focused enough in deck building can assemble a glass cannon.

In the case of the Toothy player drawing his entire deck, that's probably what's leading to wins with or without Thassa's Oracle. But him having access to Oracle certainly doesn't help. If he had the deck built before Theros v.2, was he winning the same amount of games? Is talking to him about cutting Oracle a possibility? Because if he's winning every game, it seems to be reasonable.

I agree that the Oracle trigger is annoyingly difficult to interact with. But I don't think it matters with regards to your group vs. his Toothy build. Toothy is 4 cmc, how is he winning on turn 4 through 3 opponents on a $100 budget?

[Vessiliana]

I get what you're saying, but, I guess my experience has been that people aren't just jamming Thassa's Oracle or especially Jace just to win the game. I see people making value plays with them more than I see people win with them by a significant margin.

This has been very much my experience with both these cards. They are used as value plays and not much else.

[ISBPathfinder]

Being the OP I guess I can elaborate, the player I mentioned who was using a Toothy deck plays budget decks. I have never seen him play a card that is worth more than $30 and so seeing him regularly pub stomp with his own budget Toothy deck was concerning. I don't actually think I have seen him lose with that deck and we all know its coming whenever he plays it. That entire deck is probably like $100-300 and he made it himself. The guy doesn't own any fetchlands. His toothy deck still kills us on average between turns 4 and 8 though and it defends itself with plenty of Aetherspouts / counterspells. The whole deck is things to power draw him and then counters / anti attack effects. Its brutal.

Flicker that guy a few times and you draw your whole library. Its really simple and fast and it doesn't take much $$$ to build.

Well, budget and power level aren't the same thing. Which is a big reason why I won't agree with people who says EDH is too expensive. Anyone focused enough in deck building can assemble a glass cannon.

In the case of the Toothy player drawing his entire deck, that's probably what's leading to wins with or without Thassa's Oracle. But him having access to Oracle certainly doesn't help. If he had the deck built before Theros v.2, was he winning the same amount of games? Is talking to him about cutting Oracle a possibility? Because if he's winning every game, it seems to be reasonable.

I agree that the Oracle trigger is annoyingly difficult to interact with. But I don't think it matters with regards to your group vs. his Toothy build. Toothy is 4 cmc, how is he winning on turn 4 through 3 opponents on a $100 budget?

The deck is primarily ramp, counterspells, and flickers. T1 Sol Ring does horrible things and while sure thats sol ring start, there are a lot of 2 mana ramp as well. The T4 example is faster than usual but I have seen him do it.

[Dunharrow]

I used to play against Azami Labcon decks a lot about 8 years ago. I put Sudden Death and eventually Spirit of the Labyrinth into my deck to fight them.

I can see how Oracle is a big problem. I will add that white decks can play all the Hushbringer effects and Torpor Orb is available to everyone. Of course, this can disrupt your own deck significantly.

Platinum Angel?

Honestly, I don't like Oracle. It is impossible to deal with the trigger.

[Crazy Monkey]

The big difference between Thassa's Oracle and Jace/Labman is interaction window. Jace, Wielder of Mysteries only wins while avoiding removal if there's a Doubling Season for an immediate -8. Laboratory Maniac and Jace are always vulnerable to removal, turning the draw effect into a loss. There are methods in every color to remove these two at instant speed, and the risk/reward is fairly high in a vacuum.

Oracle, however only has reactive options in counterspells or stopping the trigger. These only exist with reactive options in blue and white. Technically, depending on the number of cards in library the other outs are reducing blue devotion or forcing a card draw. If there's cards left in library, then then removal might be able to drop devotion enough. If the library is completely empty, then forcing a card draw can force the loss first. However, unless the deck is very toolbox-capable then having the correct option of these two as an out depending on which route the oracle player goes can completely blank the response.

Because oracle also performs a decent role in card selection, I personally play it in a single non-cEDH list as early card selection with a backup use later. I've seen in in similar mid-powered decks of my metagame. In these decks, it doesn't win early but it remains a win-condition that's more difficult to interact with than the other options.

Even though I don't like playing against the Oracle, I'm not advocating for a ban here. However, I agree with multiple previous comments that Oracle is distinctly difficult to stop in the category of winning with an empty library, limited almost entirely by color.

[ISBPathfinder]

The big difference between Thassa's Oracle and Jace/Labman is interaction window. Jace, Wielder of Mysteries only wins while avoiding removal if there's a Doubling Season for an immediate -8. Laboratory Maniac and Jace are always vulnerable to removal, turning the draw effect into a loss. There are methods in every color to remove these two at instant speed, and the risk/reward is fairly high in a vacuum.

What? His +1 mills two and then draws a card.

Its true that there are cards in every color / colorless that could deal with a walker but generally speaking there is like..... a card or two in most non blue colors. I don't know if green / red have more than one meaningful interaction card generally speaking. He doesn't die to Lightning Bolt so outside of Chaos Warp you are down to like...... Comet Storm with a ton of mana up?

Blue has counter magic, and black has like..... what 3ish playable walker interaction cards but I still mostly wouldn't call them good. White is probably the best color outside of blue against walkers and I would still struggle to say that there are more than 3-4 cards that optimally should be run that can interact with walkers at instant speed.

Oracle, however only has reactive options in counterspells or stopping the trigger. These only exist with reactive options in blue and white. Technically, depending on the number of cards in library the other outs are reducing blue devotion or forcing a card draw. If there's cards left in library, then then removal might be able to drop devotion enough. If the library is completely empty, then forcing a card draw can force the loss first. However, unless the deck is very toolbox-capable then having the correct option of these two as an out depending on which route the oracle player goes can completely blank the response.

Because oracle also performs a decent role in card selection, I personally play it in a single non-cEDH list as early card selection with a backup use later. I've seen in in similar mid-powered decks of my metagame. In these decks, it doesn't win early but it remains a win-condition that's more difficult to interact with than the other options.

Even though I don't like playing against the Oracle, I'm not advocating for a ban here. However, I agree with multiple previous comments that Oracle is distinctly difficult to stop in the category of winning with an empty library, limited almost entirely by color.

Yea, its good to see and hear from others on how its performing in their metas. Its good to hear that not everyone is breaking it in half.

---

Something else I haven't really talked about is perhaps a question of comparing it to Griselbrand. Obviously the cards are completely different in what they do but I sort of got the impression that a more casual table might have played Griselbrand in very different ways than a lean tuned deck that might ramp him out and win on the spot. In a more casual setting Griselbrand is likely to draw less cards immediately and abuse fast and cheap mana a lot less. I think there likely are and were ways in which Griselbrand could be an interesting late game wincon / beater but mostly I think he was banned for the sins of fast and cheap mana.

OBVIOUSLY I can't really say Griselbrand == Thassa's Oracle but I think that in some ways the difference between their competative to casual play can be related. In both cases when a casual setting is applied they are probably fine but there is an in between area where they might not be and as you look towards the high end they can become overly centralizing.

[Crazy Monkey]

The big difference between Thassa's Oracle and Jace/Labman is interaction window. Jace, Wielder of Mysteries only wins while avoiding removal if there's a Doubling Season for an immediate -8. Laboratory Maniac and Jace are always vulnerable to removal, turning the draw effect into a loss. There are methods in every color to remove these two at instant speed, and the risk/reward is fairly high in a vacuum.

What? His +1 mills two and then draws a card.

What I meant there, but didn't say well, was that his +1 draws, but there is instant speed removal that can be played between the activation of the loyalty ability and it winning. If an opponent draws their library, then plays Jace and +1s, then every color has some options to remove Jace before the +1 resolves. This is difficult, especially if the controller plays protection for the jace, but there are at least options available for any deck.

EDIT: I guess we might be referencing different things. You're correct that in a vacuum, there aren't many options in non-blue colors to stop Jace. Beast Within, Chaos Warp, Hero's Downfall, Generous Gift, etc. However, in a mid-powered meta game, there should be other possible options available. In my opinion, it's more a matter of having the option to interact compared to just being unable to interact. I'd gladly activate Sisay, Weatherlight Captain for Legacy Weapon or Planar Bridge for Avarice Totem as on-theme outs for my decks against Jace instead of hoping they left a card in library and I can monstrous Polukranos, World Eater and reduce blue devotion to 0. In my opinion, they don't need to be "good" outs, just the option to have an out is enough for me. *End Edit

The -8 by contrast requires basically the same level of interaction as Oracle because there is no priority window once it's on the stack. However, it takes time or setup in order to hit the -8, so it's rarely a good comparison. Short of something like an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon ultimate putting both into play there is a priority window to remove the doubling season while Jace is on the stack. This contrasts with the Oracle because there is a very short window of interaction with just by default and without support.

In a more casual meta, I think the closer comparison to Thassa's Oracle is Biorhythm. With the right setup, it wins immediately without much interaction (about the same as Jace, Wielder of Mysteries actually). Griselbrand is a better comparison at the upper end of the power spectrum because I think it requires more specific supporting cards instead of combo-ing with a board wipe.

[Dunharrow]

Cranial Extraction
Thread solved

To comment on Jace - It's true he can win with his +1, and that most decks won't have more than a couple instant-speed answers to this. However, if you are frequently facing this kind of deck, like the OP dealing with this Toothy deck, then you can keep up the removal spell for Jace.

Also, while there are only a few mono-color answers for each color, there are a lot of gold answers that are highly played. Despark Bedevil Assassin's Trophy....

Still, would feel bad to hold onto your Anguished Unmaking all game to trump a Jace and then have your opponent drop Thassa's Oracle.


Can I bring up one counter-argument though to TO being a problem?
If your opponent drew their deck, and TO was banned, they would just find another way to win. They already have their whole deck in hand.

Now, I do not personally like this argument, but it should still be considered. The reason I don't like it is because if your opponent drew their deck and dropped Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Pestermite, you would have the chance to kill a creature and fizzle the combo. TO is very much like Biorhythm in that the game will just end on resolution, with very little you can do to stop it.

OP - best thing to do with a Toothy deck spamming TO and Jace is to stop them from drawing so many cards. What are you playing?

[ISBPathfinder]

Can I bring up one counter-argument though to TO being a problem?
If your opponent drew their deck, and TO was banned, they would just find another way to win. They already have their whole deck in hand.

Now, I do not personally like this argument, but it should still be considered. The reason I don't like it is because if your opponent drew their deck and dropped Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Pestermite, you would have the chance to kill a creature and fizzle the combo. TO is very much like Biorhythm in that the game will just end on resolution, with very little you can do to stop it.

OP - best thing to do with a Toothy deck spamming TO and Jace is to stop them from drawing so many cards. What are you playing?

Most of the other things cost more mana to do which means it might take longer to execute them and it might also make it harder to have multiple counterspells backing them up. I think its fine to have combo in the format, I just think that you don't want to make them too simple, cheap, or difficult to interact with.

Lots of the power of Oracle / Jace are that they are very cheap to use, hard to interact with, and in blue so backing them up with counter magic is a thing. Making people move to the next best thing means usually means a more complicated thing that is easier to interact with as well as possible costing more mana.

I get that there will always be a best thing to do, I just think this is one of those things that doesn't cost enough to execute as well as being hard to interact with. I would generally prefer combos to be something that a Naturalize or Swords to Plowshares can interact with.

---

A number of my lists are in my signature. I generally speaking won't win via combo but I will tune my decks high. My fastest deck currently is my Sai deck where I can and have won games by turns 5/6 but its also a massive glass cannon with tons of ways to interact with it. There are a number of things I refuse to play myself but I do also have a vast collection of cards and I really do tune my lists well. I won't play stasis / stax / LD / combo / Craterhoof / most any alternate wincon that doesn't involve zeroing opponents hp or commander damaging them.

[Sinis]

Something else I haven't really talked about is perhaps a question of comparing it to Griselbrand. Obviously the cards are completely different in what they do but I sort of got the impression that a more casual table might have played Griselbrand in very different ways than a lean tuned deck that might ramp him out and win on the spot. In a more casual setting Griselbrand is likely to draw less cards immediately and abuse fast and cheap mana a lot less. I think there likely are and were ways in which Griselbrand could be an interesting late game wincon / beater but mostly I think he was banned for the sins of fast and cheap mana.

OBVIOUSLY I can't really say Griselbrand == Thassa's Oracle but I think that in some ways the difference between their competative to casual play can be related. In both cases when a casual setting is applied they are probably fine but there is an in between area where they might not be and as you look towards the high end they can become overly centralizing.

This is a good acid test. Griselbrand just wins games on its own, and doesn't really require that you build around it. If you get Griselbrand out, you bury everyone in card advantage, and have a huge beater, end of story. If you include Griselbrand in your deck playing a naive or 'fun' strategy, you'll probably win if you table him.

Thassa's Oracle/Jace are not like that. You really have to build around them to win the game with them.

[ISBPathfinder]

Something else I haven't really talked about is perhaps a question of comparing it to Griselbrand. Obviously the cards are completely different in what they do but I sort of got the impression that a more casual table might have played Griselbrand in very different ways than a lean tuned deck that might ramp him out and win on the spot. In a more casual setting Griselbrand is likely to draw less cards immediately and abuse fast and cheap mana a lot less. I think there likely are and were ways in which Griselbrand could be an interesting late game wincon / beater but mostly I think he was banned for the sins of fast and cheap mana.

OBVIOUSLY I can't really say Griselbrand == Thassa's Oracle but I think that in some ways the difference between their competative to casual play can be related. In both cases when a casual setting is applied they are probably fine but there is an in between area where they might not be and as you look towards the high end they can become overly centralizing.

This is a good acid test. Griselbrand just wins games on its own, and doesn't really require that you build around it. If you get Griselbrand out, you bury everyone in card advantage, and have a huge beater, end of story. If you include Griselbrand in your deck playing a naive or 'fun' strategy, you'll probably win if you table him.

Thassa's Oracle/Jace are not like that. You really have to build around them to win the game with them.

Have you ever seen casual players when it comes to over drawing and discarding? They tend to be a lot more timid about doing it. Its true that Griselbrand "could" beat in for the win but generally speaking he is a bit like Consecrated Sphinx in targeting and without the want and need to tear through your deck I have seen a lot of card draw especially like that of Necropotence be avoided by newer players. The cost of overdrawing affects more casual players a lot differently. When you don't have a lean curve with lots of reanimation and ramp how you would see griselbrand played by a casual player is a lot different than a more competitive one.

Griselbrand and Thassa's Oracle are not the same, but in some ways I think the tenancies and concern over them can be similar. Both of them are more of a concern when you focus and build with them in mind. Its true that Griselbrand is a better stand alone card, but I also think that both differ in concern depending on what level of play they are being used in. As Griselbrand was coming out, I still remember all of the decks built around him both as the commander and as a tutor target but almost all of those decks were higher end comp decks. I can't actually say I remember seeing anyone playing him back then before he was banned.

[Sinis]

Griselbrand and Thassa's Oracle are not the same, but in some ways I think the tenancies and concern over them can be similar. Both of them are more of a concern when you focus and build with them in mind.

I think the problem with comparing them is that Griselbrand is busted when you just play with it naively. You say that casual players are timid in terms of overdrawing, but, even if they activate Griselbrand once, they'll be really far ahead.

If someone plays Thassa's Oracle or Jace without serious intent to deck themselves, they won't be lightyears ahead.

In both the played-naively case AND in the build-around case, Griselbrand is a completely different animal. I don't think the comparison sticks in any way, shape or form.

[ISBPathfinder]

Griselbrand and Thassa's Oracle are not the same, but in some ways I think the tenancies and concern over them can be similar. Both of them are more of a concern when you focus and build with them in mind.

I think the problem with comparing them is that Griselbrand is busted when you just play with it naively. You say that casual players are timid in terms of overdrawing, but, even if they activate Griselbrand once, they'll be really far ahead.

If someone plays Thassa's Oracle or Jace without serious intent to deck themselves, they won't be lightyears ahead.

In both the played-naively case AND in the build-around case, Griselbrand is a completely different animal. I don't think the comparison sticks in any way, shape or form.

Its an 8 mana spell...... what if it was just Craterhoof Behemoth, expropriate, or Omniscience? 8 mana spells might just be game over in a lot of cases, I actually don't see how Griselbrand is more or less toxic than Craterhoof Behemoth. I really should not be comparing a two mana crature to an 8 mana one in the first place but I felt that it was similar in some ways to how Griselbrand was a lot more of an issue at higher end comp. I don't see how a casually played Griselbrand is worse than a lot of other 8+ mana bombs. It could win you the game, that is true. But so too could a number of other things. Griselbrand in a lower tuned meta is not more offensive than Necropotence in my opinion.

[Sinis]

Its an 8 mana spell...... what if it was just Craterhoof Behemoth, expropriate, or Omnicience? 8 mana spells might just be game over in a lot of cases, I actually don't see how Griselbrand is more or less toxic than Craterhoof Behemoth.

1. Craterhoof Behemoth at least requires something resembling a board, Griselbrand just requires you have a library and a life total.
2. I think Expropriate is monumentally unfun, and I wouldn't mind seeing it banned.
3. No one really pays 8 mana for Griselbrand. If they do, it's 8 mana they acquired from broken fast mana.

I really should not be comparing a two mana crature to an 8 mana one in the first place.

Possibly.

I guess the disagreement we have in this might be because of how we view the banlist. For me, the cards that ought to be banned have the following features:
1. If played in a naive game of magic (i.e. we're just trying to play fat creatures/generals and beat each other down), it will provide an overwhelming advantage, make the game a foregone conclusion, or consign players to playing solitaire (doubly so if the card does this on its own) AND It doesn't add anything interesting to the game.
-OR-
2. It prevents players from playing the game.

I think there are lots of cards that meet this criteria, and they tend to be the huge mana cards where virtually no cost would make it 'fair'. Expropriate, Enter the Infinite, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, etc. I think none of those cards are fun or fair. Some cards I'm on the edge of, like Craterhoof Behemoth and Insurrection.

Stuff like Thassa's Oracle doesn't bother me a whole lot for the main reason I've already articulated: If someone wants to 'win the game' by triggering Thassa's Oracle as fast as possible, and we banned TO and its analogues tomorrow, they would just win with something else. I don't see it ruining casual games anywhere. I would even say Vilis, Broker of Blood has ruined more games for me than Thassa's Oracle/Jace.

[ISBPathfinder]

Its an 8 mana spell...... what if it was just Craterhoof Behemoth, expropriate, or Omnicience? 8 mana spells might just be game over in a lot of cases, I actually don't see how Griselbrand is more or less toxic than Craterhoof Behemoth.

1. Craterhoof Behemoth at least requires something resembling a board, Griselbrand just requires you have a library and a life total.
2. I think Expropriate is monumentally unfun, and I wouldn't mind seeing it banned.
3. No one really pays 8 mana for Griselbrand. If they do, it's 8 mana they acquired from broken fast mana.

I won't go deeper on a bunch of these cards as we are getting a little off topic here.

I really should not be comparing a two mana crature to an 8 mana one in the first place.

Possibly.

I guess the disagreement we have in this might be because of how we view the banlist. For me, the cards that ought to be banned have the following features:
1. If played in a naive game of magic (i.e. we're just trying to play fat creatures/generals and beat each other down), it will provide an overwhelming advantage, make the game a foregone conclusion, or consign players to playing solitaire (doubly so if the card does this on its own) AND It doesn't add anything interesting to the game.
-OR-
2. It prevents players from playing the game.

I think there are lots of cards that meet this criteria, and they tend to be the huge mana cards where virtually no cost would make it 'fair'. Expropriate, Enter the Infinite, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, etc. I think none of those cards are fun or fair. Some cards I'm on the edge of, like Craterhoof Behemoth and Insurrection.

Stuff like Thassa's Oracle doesn't bother me a whole lot for the main reason I've already articulated: If someone wants to 'win the game' by triggering Thassa's Oracle as fast as possible, and we banned TO and its analogues tomorrow, they would just win with something else. I don't see it ruining casual games anywhere. I would even say Vilis, Broker of Blood has ruined more games for me than Thassa's Oracle/Jace.

There are a lot of bans that reflect on a too much power for the mana, too hard to interact with, or too consistent or easy. Most of the power 9 bans were on a basis of too much power for the mana as well as too hard to interact with. There was some level of thought towards avalability and cost as well but the health of the format with off the power 9 would not be very good. Beyond those though, Rofellos got banned for being too powerful and consistent.

I agree with a lot of what you were saying on your ban parameters, I just think there is also a power of the card to mana cost consideration as well that they do consider. There is also some level of "overly centralizing" which I think they hit Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, and Paradox Engine for.

Our disagreement on this front probably comes from our different metas and how we have seen these cards play. I don't disagree that that might be a big thing when it comes to the banned list for this format but I also don't know what to do other than bring up an issue like what I am having in a form like this and see if its isolated to me, or if others are also having issues with it.

[Sinis]

I agree with a lot of what you were saying on your ban parameters, I just think there is also a power of the card to mana cost consideration as well that they do consider. There is also some level of "overly centralizing" which I think they hit Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, and Paradox Engine for.

Alright, this is the heart of it. Look at the cards referenced: Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, Paradox Engine.

Do you really believe TO/Jace are on par with these? Like, on par with Prophet?

Our disagreement on this front probably comes from our different metas and how we have seen these cards play.

This is probably the case. My own meta is carefully cultivated; I play in a group that is uninterested in stuff like Expropriate, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc. We often stop playing cards long before they end up on the banlist. We do play TO/Jace, but we don't generally win with them.

I don't disagree that that might be a big thing when it comes to the banned list for this format but I also don't know what to do other than bring up an issue like what I am having in a form like this and see if its isolated to me, or if others are also having issues with it.

Caveat: I hope this doesn't sound patronizing, and that's absolutely not my intent.

I think it comes down to talking with people about what kinds of games you want to play. The key feature of my group isn't that we're casuals or believe Craterhoof is boring, it's that we're all willing to communicate. Also, not insignificantly, we try and identify things we don't like about games we didn't enjoy. Talk to your group about TO/Jace. It's not a problem for my group because we're generally already removed from the deck-ourselves-and-win game. But, I think if we had different temperaments and were okay with those kinds of wins, we'd at least know what to expect.

[ISBPathfinder]

I agree with a lot of what you were saying on your ban parameters, I just think there is also a power of the card to mana cost consideration as well that they do consider. There is also some level of "overly centralizing" which I think they hit Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, and Paradox Engine for.

Alright, this is the heart of it. Look at the cards referenced: Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, Paradox Engine.

Do you really believe TO/Jace are on par with these? Like, on par with Prophet?

I believe Thassa's Oracle to be MUCH MUCH more powerful than any of those but also less centralizing and present in the format. Those cards were everywhere and that is why they were banned. I wasn't saying that TO / Jace are everywhere like those cards so much as pointing out another reason the RC sometimes bans cards beyond the two you mentioned.

Our disagreement on this front probably comes from our different metas and how we have seen these cards play.

This is probably the case. My own meta is carefully cultivated; I play in a group that is uninterested in stuff like Expropriate, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc. We often stop playing cards long before they end up on the banlist. We do play TO/Jace, but we don't generally win with them.

I don't disagree that that might be a big thing when it comes to the banned list for this format but I also don't know what to do other than bring up an issue like what I am having in a form like this and see if its isolated to me, or if others are also having issues with it.

Caveat: I hope this doesn't sound patronizing, and that's absolutely not my intent.

I think it comes down to talking with people about what kinds of games you want to play. The key feature of my group isn't that we're casuals or believe Craterhoof is boring, it's that we're all willing to communicate. Also, not insignificantly, we try and identify things we don't like about games we didn't enjoy. Talk to your group about TO/Jace. It's not a problem for my group because we're generally already removed from the deck-ourselves-and-win game. But, I think if we had different temperaments and were okay with those kinds of wins, we'd at least know what to expect.

My own meta consists of 3-4 of us as constants and another 10-15 somewhat transient individuals. Several of these are college individuals whom go out different places and come back after having played in other metas. So they can be a pain to really call consistent. We consistently are not consistent in who is in our meta which makes it hard to have any said talks. There are a few other metas about an hour drive away and so sometimes we have a few people who kick around between those places to play.