[SCD] Thrasios, Triton Hero

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

I was surprised to see this guy not have a dedicated thread, and was inspired by being reminded of just how obnoxious he is.



He single-handedly ruins higher powered commander by being the de facto best, and pairs with the second best (Tymna the Weaver).

(I do think Tymna is a stronger commander, but only when paired with blue, so ultimately Thrasios is the individually bigger problem).

I don't think you can even make a fair Thrasios casual deck; he's so absurdly powerful on his own that he dominates everything in his weight class. There're plenty of other options for merfolk tribal, and his other best casual use of Lands has several powerful UGx options.

Simply put I don't think he brings anything positive to the format and should probably be banned - and realistically should have been banned immediately.

Certainly interested in counterpoints there but I did some thinking back on it and basically every time I've seen a Thrasios deck it's the center of the game.

His offenses:
* Very cheap
* Parnters with other broken commanders
* Colorless infinite mana sink
* Land ramp and card draw
* Access to 4 colors and two of the best colors

He basically does every powerful thing you can do in the command zone all in a 2 mana package with access to up to 4 colors. He's straight up broken on his own without partnering, and gets far more egregious when partnered.

He makes up nearly 50% of the meta in CEDH but is starting to see a lot more casual to high powered play as well.

As far as representation goes, there are 3280 thrasios decks on EDHRec making him rank in the top 5 most played commanders with such luminaries as Atraxa, Edgar, Muldrotha, and Golos (one of which has a banning thread that has more yea's than nays already).



Another issue I forgot is that Thrasios is the best at too many things. This chews up space for other commanders, especially in the upper power levels. He's the best lands commander, the best mana dork commander, and the best artifact ramp commander. That's lame to put in one package.
Try taking any Lands deck(ex. Tatyova, Benthic Druid) and replacing the commander with Thrasios + whomever (or even just Thrasios)
Try taking any artifact build and replacing it with Thrasios+Akiri or Silas
Try taking any dork heavy UG deck and subbing in Thrasios as the commander.
Almost always better - definitely better once you sub 5-ish cards for Thrasios synergies.


Does anyone not think Thrasios is a blight? :P
Last edited by pokken 2 weeks ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by onering » 2 weeks ago

I can't get behind this. He's merely very good, not broken. His presence, along with Tymna, in cEDH come as much from their color combo as anything. I'm not discounting that both are, as cards, good in cEDH, but they aren't broken. The cEDH decks win through the 99, and these two commanders serve as support and backup. I legitimately wonder if Thrasios were banned, if Atraxa would take its place just for the colors even if she rarely gets cast. cEDH should not dictate bannings, and this doesn't come close to the extreme case of Flash.

In casual, he's good, but again not broken. What he does is A) be a partner and B)provide a solid mana sink. His mana sink ability is good, but not broken. Its inefficient, 4 mana is a lot for the effect and it is only good because it is repeatable within the same turn. Its a nice thing to have when you don't have anything else to spend mana on. but not your primary or even secondary game plan, which is what mana sinks are supposed to be. It can go infinite, but once you are getting infinite mana you have a thousand ways to win.

Its actually really easy to build him fairly, just don't include infinite mana.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

I won with him more in CEDH without infinite mana than with it. 2:explore is unstoppable card advantage, pair it with a Seedborn Muse etc and that's the ballgame. I straight up Finale'd for 10+ off Thrasios ramp more than once :) If you think CEDH is about the 99 and not about the commander, well, you are incorrect. All the best CEDH decks are primarily about the commander-- they either combo with the commander or depend on the commander for card advantage.

--And that is all I will say about CEDH in this thread--

In casual medium to high powered games Thrasios' card advantage off of the increasing number of ways to reduce his cost is game defining, in my experience. You almost cannot beat Training Grounds + Thrasios, Triton Hero in a casual game - he ramps and covers his cost, he provides massive card filtering and draw, and there are a ton of ways to turn him into a machine gun of value - Wilderness Reclamation Unwinding Clock Seedborn Muse Awakening etc.

Infinite mana is the smallest concern for me; just winning the game by being the best card draw engine you can put in the command zone with the best color combination, is the problem.

The way you describe his ability makes me wonder how many medium-high powered games you've played against Thrasios :)
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Post by WizardMN » 2 weeks ago

onering wrote:
2 weeks ago
Its actually really easy to build him fairly, just don't include infinite mana.
I don't think that is enough to be "fair". The ability fuels itself as it is and removal of Thrasios is less of an option due to coming down early and being cheap to cast anyway.

I am pretty sure my game against Thrasios is what triggered pokken to make this thread and in that game, they had 10 mana on turn 5. Some of this was due to Thawing Glaciers and Sakura-Tribe Scout shenanigans but it still got out of hand way too quick. And of course spending removal on it (even a wrath) means they just need to cast him again and then start the engine going. And being inefficient becomes less of an issue when you can play a reactive game as it is and the ability simply fuels itself for later activations.

As I said in comment of that game: it is the only time I hoped someone was bringing MLD to the table. The rest of the game would have been unfun too, but not as much.

I agree on the EDH vs cEDH front that cEDH shouldn't dictate a ban, but there is some merit to talking about the card in an EDH context in terms of it being too much. My experience has been very minimal but also very frustrating. Perhaps others have faced these types of decks without the same issues and my experiences are outliers. Which, of course, is the purpose of a thread like this to see what others are experiencing.

In the end I do think it isn't quite bannable (but I would not be sad to see it gone) but there are a lot of things this general has going for it that really push it into potential bannable territory.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 weeks ago
I am pretty sure my game against Thrasios is what triggered pokken
Yeah definitely, I went to see if there was a thread for it because of that and was surprised not to see it. :) I have also played against those same decks many times online (and in paper). There's one every few games and it's always the same thing, ramp ramp thrasios then spend the rest of the game playing whackamole with their unending stream of card advantage and ramp.

Thrasios commits the cardinal sin of commanders in my opinion which is weaponizing ramp as a strategy. But his absurd efficiency (2 cmc! Yeesh) puts it over the top.

Take a run through your decks sometime and find out how many of them would be better as Thrasios+whomever :P It's depressing.

For me that exercise is:

Ephara → strictly better as Thrasios+Tymna
Omnath Rug Elementals → Definitely better as Thrasios+Ludevic or Thrasios+Vial Smasher

Even my Golos artifact deck would be much better with Thrasios since he sinks infinite colorless :P

(Again, I realize that 'better' is not the point of EDH, it's just an interesting thought experiment).
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Post by Mookie » 2 weeks ago

In a vacuum, I don't have a big problem with Thrasios, Triton Hero. He's certainly strong - as I've pointed out elsewhere, the two strongest things a commander can do are generate card advantage and generate mana advantage, and Thrasios does both. He's also incredibly cheap to recast, which makes it difficult to keep him off the table. However, I'd also say that paying four mana for a card draw with upside is also a roughly fair rate. Maybe a bit above the curve, but not oppressively so.

...that said, we don't live in a vacuum. Throw in Tymna the Weaver or another commander to grant more colors, Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar to grant super-cheap activations, or Seedborn Muse to jump your activations into the stratosphere. And that's before we throw in the ability to win instantly with infinite mana (which doesn't even need to be colored mana, unlike Tasigur, the Golden Fang).

....and if you're playing Thrasios entirely fairly and just having the play pattern of 'hold up mana for Counterspell and activate Thrasios if nothing is worth countering', that's still enough to win a of games.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Thrasios as much as I have a problem with partners and 4-colored decks in general. Thrasios does add significantly to the partner problem by being one of the strongest options though - I'm okay with the base idea of 'have two underpowered commanders instead of one full-powered commanders', but Thrasios is strong enough to support a deck by himself, and doesn't really need the help.

....as a Tasigur player, I will admit that I'm slightly annoyed by Thrasios essentially being the same card, but better - costing two mana is huge, even if you can discount Tasigur with delve. I run enough graveyard synergies / recursion that I don't think my deck would be strictly improved by swapping out Tasigur for Thrasios + (any black partner), but it's close.

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Post by onering » 2 weeks ago

I mean, most of the argument against him is that he combos with cards that are already pretty broken on their own, like seedborn or wilderness rec, and for advantage not an instant win. I think sitting back and activating him if there's nothing else to do while playing control is perfectly fair. Yeah, you can win games with it, but that doesn't make it broken.

This isn't a card like Golos where all it does is break the game on its own. You have to build to break it. Pokken, you talk about how most decks could be improved by switching out a thematic commander for Thrasios and another partner. That's somewhat true, but if you are doing that you are doing so specifically to min max. Unlike other value engines like Prophet, it doesn't just immediately take over the game on its own. You need to activate it a few times to be worth it, it's a longer term value piece unless you have a combo piece out with it.

It seems like Thrasios is much more of a cEDH problem than a casual problem, and not near the level of an issue as Flash. From EDHrec, it looks like the preponderance of Thrasios decks are paired with Tymna, and most of those are geared towards cEDH.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

I think golos and thrasios are more similar than different. IMHO thrasios is even worse than golos because his ability is so much easier to abuse for incremental advantage with simple synergies that are attractive to a broad audience (meaning he's both a problem in CEDH *and* casual, whereas Golos largely doesn't see much competitive play - though there is a new deck with him that's making some waves with him).

Sure they're not necessarily as flashy as golos but they're just as game defining. I do think thrasios has efficiency that attracts higher power players but he's heavily used in a huge swath of edh metas

He's just too dang good. It's not like that with most of the other good stuff generals. Golos and thrasios have that same quality of pushing too many other archetypes out. That's a problem in my opinion even if it doesn't mean every deck is thrasios a ton of them "should" be.
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Post by umtiger » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
All the best CEDH decks are primarily about the commander-- they either combo with the commander or depend on the commander for card advantage.
I believe this is true about all power-levels of EDH decks in general. After all, the most broken part of EDH is having access to an extra specific card throughout the entire game during each and every game. Therefore, you might as well build around having that card.

The partner mechanic itself is stupid because now you have access to TWO extra specific cards throughout the entire game. Sure, some partners are fun pairs like Regna and Krav. But those are 5 and 6 cmc. I don't think there is anyway to really make partner balanced to play against unless you make the cmc's high (e.g. the Kenrith walkers). Thrasios being the cheapest possible two color cost @ 2 cmc is bonkers and then there is another 3 cmc to curve straight into.

At the end of the day, designing for EDH (i.e. eminence, partner) is a bad design choice. Unless they make a rules change ala Companion, we're just going to have to deal with these bad designs that promote unfun play patterns as players and playgroups. If you're dead set on playing and winning ASAP all the time, Thrasios is pretty much the only way to go. But that's not a requirement. You don't have to play Thrasios because you don't have to play that way. Each time spoiler season rolls around, I dislike how every new fatty is essentially stacked against Jin-Gitaxias as a reanimation target. Like why? Not every new card is meant to be a shinier, better win-condition.

EDH was and would be better when the format just adopted cards organically. Like cube is perfectly fun without R&D designing cube cards.

PS, I'll say this when it comes to comparing Thrasios to Golos. At least, I don't mind removing Thrasios. Golos and Maelstrom Wanderer and Proosh are worst to me. Commanders that you have to constantly slog through, who provide value each time you cast it. Like, how do you remove Golos without straight up resorting to player removal? Cursed Totem?

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

umtiger wrote:
2 weeks ago
At least, I don't mind removing Thrasios. Golos and Maelstrom Wanderer and Proosh are worst to me. Commanders that you have to constantly slog through, who provide value each time you cast it. Like, how do you remove Golos without straight up resorting to player removal? Cursed Totem?
I *really* mind removing thrasios cos the first cast costs 2. If I get him in a sweeper I'm pleased but I sure do not want to point targeted removal at him. Targeted removal at Golos often sets them back an entire turn or two for 1 or 2 mana - especially if they stalled at 6 mana which happens.

Linvala, Keeper of Silence is a card I play a lot that craps on both strategies pretty well. Most of those decks can't win if you stick and protect a Linvala. But that's not like a thing you can guarantee doing. I hate the idea of building more decks around Cursed Totem, that feels toxic to me to be a regular thing in your playgroup :P

Wanderer is surely the most egregious example of weaponizing ramp. But costing 2 means Thrasios is part of the gameplan from turn 1 every game - you have no time to attack their ramp or do anything really. There's no counter a Skyshroud Claim and stuff them hard.

Wanderer also warps deck construction in that to get the payoff you need to play lots of bombs; Thrasios can just play efficient stuff, has way more ways to build. Not that I would be sad if Wanderer didn't exist personally.

I think that's probably the worst thing about Thrasios' play patterns - he comes out on turn 1 or 2 every game and starts drawing cards; it's like they start with 3 copies of Explore in their hand every game. It's just too consistent and too flexible.
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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 2 weeks ago

I don't buy that a card with the power level of a draft uncommon as printed is anywhere near enough of a menace in casual as something like Kinnan, Korvold and Golos. If you aren't abusing Lil' T with infinite mana or fast combo, there are better ramp and card advantage commanders.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

BounceBurnBuff wrote:
2 weeks ago
I don't buy that a card with the power level of a draft uncommon as printed is anywhere near enough of a menace in casual as something like Kinnan, Korvold and Golos. If you aren't abusing Lil' T with infinite mana or fast combo, there are better ramp and card advantage commanders.
I am not sure what draft sets you're playing but Thrasios would utterly dominate in draft
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
BounceBurnBuff wrote:
2 weeks ago
I don't buy that a card with the power level of a draft uncommon as printed is anywhere near enough of a menace in casual as something like Kinnan, Korvold and Golos. If you aren't abusing Lil' T with infinite mana or fast combo, there are better ramp and card advantage commanders.
I am not sure what draft sets you're playing but Thrasios would utterly dominate in draft
Eh, not really. He's a pumped up Azure Mage, and while he's better in a few ways, it's not enough to make him anything close to "dominating", especially in limited where the dual coloring is a significant drawback. He could easily get printed as a signpost uncommon, if a strong one. You're not going to wait until you have 6 mana to play him, so probably a solid 70% of the time he'll get dropped and eat a removal spell or have to chump before you have 4 spare mana to activate him.

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Post by onering » 2 weeks ago

I think you underestimate how rough getting an early Thrasios removed is. If their gameplan is to stick him early, they want to be holding up Mana until before they untap and dumping it into his ability eot, not tapping out to play Thrasios a second time on turn 3 or 4. Kill him again and now they have to spend 10 Mana for their first explore, but really any speed bump is good. Even if he gets activated a couple of times before getting killed. His body is worthless, his ability is what he brings to the table, and it's a 4 Mana not quite explore. At some point rather quickly he gets expensive enough to not be worth forcing unless they are trying to pair him with wilderness rec or seedborn.

Golos more reliably helps pay his own tax, and one activation is enormous, two makes you the far and away favorite, and three typically seals the game. You have to keep him off the field or locked under something. And if you keep killing him, the Golos player at least has a few of his best lands tutored out to show for it. The Thrasios player has to get an activation out of him just to approximate the value of one Golos cast, and unlike Golos' ability a not quite explore for 4 Mana is a back up plan rather than something worth forcing ASAP. I'm higher powered metas he's very good, but fair for what is normal in those metas. In lower power metas, mid to low tier, he's good but not oppressively so. Drawing cards for 4 Mana is always nice but when you're drawing less powerful cards the return on investment is lower. I'd much rather face him than Golos or Maelstrom, because killing him is a reasonable answer.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

If your games involve people spending removal on 2 Mana commanders except to stop a combo I don't think our games have enough in common to compare.
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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Wallycaine wrote:
2 weeks ago
pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
BounceBurnBuff wrote:
2 weeks ago
I don't buy that a card with the power level of a draft uncommon as printed is anywhere near enough of a menace in casual as something like Kinnan, Korvold and Golos. If you aren't abusing Lil' T with infinite mana or fast combo, there are better ramp and card advantage commanders.
I am not sure what draft sets you're playing but Thrasios would utterly dominate in draft
Eh, not really. He's a pumped up Azure Mage, and while he's better in a few ways, it's not enough to make him anything close to "dominating", especially in limited where the dual coloring is a significant drawback. He could easily get printed as a signpost uncommon, if a strong one. You're not going to wait until you have 6 mana to play him, so probably a solid 70% of the time he'll get dropped and eat a removal spell or have to chump before you have 4 spare mana to activate him.
Scry 1 draw ramp if you want is pretty different from draw 1, and the body is relevant. I would not expect to see him at less than rare. That said I'll concede dominate is too strong a word. But don't underestimate how powerful scry 1 is before a draw.. in limited it's very close to draw 2.

All that said many of the most powerful cards in commander are total duds or very niche in draft so the draft in uncommon comment is pure red herring.
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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
If your games involve people spending removal on 2 Mana commanders except to stop a combo I don't think our games have enough in common to compare.
That's probably the crux of it. Never used to experience a Thrasios in casual games at my LGS, and since expanding onto PLAYEDH, another fat zero random pods with Thrasios outside of cEDH. There has been one case of a friend joining with a "Temur Draw" deck built around Ominous Seas + Greater Good and some wheel synergies that paired Thrasios with Kraum, but to be perfectly honest a Xyris would be more problematic in casual settings for that type of deck.

In general, I'm fine with someone dumping 4 mana a pop to draw 1 or ramp 1. That's all Thrasios is. Compared to a Chulane getting to do both for playing a 1 drop dork, or Korvold chomping on fetch lands and Treasures for free, I don't think he's remotely close to their level in more fair games. Thus, nowhere near a problem in casual.

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Post by Mookie » 2 weeks ago

Re: Thrasios in limited - I'd say that he is roughly equivalent in power level to Mystic Archaeologist, which is a very strong limited card. However, context is also important - if you're in a faster format (ex: original Zendikar), then the odds of ever actually activating Thrasios are fairly low - the game will probably be over before you can do so more than once or twice. On the other hand, in a grindy, value-driven format like Dominaria or MM3, Thrasios would be a bomb - repeatable card advantage engines are really strong in limited, and there aren't many available in most formats.

And of course, that's before we start considering the fact that you can guarantee drawing Thrasios every game, which lets you build around him even more consistently. I could definitely see myself drafting a Thrasios, loading my deck up with all the removal and counterspells I can draft, and relying on Thrasios to fuel a sweet control deck by himself.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

BounceBurnBuff wrote:
2 weeks ago
Thus, nowhere near a problem in casual.
I think we need to stop using casual as a shorthand for 'all of the format but CEDH' while simultaneously using it to exclude people who play at higher than average power levels. Part of the problem in people's understanding of Thrasios is that he's a gigantic problem when the desire for efficiency starts to creep in as decks get more powerful.

Don't get me wrong, I think Biomancer's Familiar + Thrasios, Triton Hero is a very casual thing to do that would *dominate* at lower tiers of the game. I think people don't do it a lot because Thrasios is recognized as a CEDH powerhouse - and also his price being insane doesn't hurt.

But at the upper tiers of the game he sees a ton of play - most people I know have had a Thrasios deck or still have one (or two:P I know one guy with thras-tym and thras-vial smasher high powered non-CEDH decks). And he's a disaster for diversity.

Leovold, Emissary of Trest being banned suggests that the community does care about this power level; nobody was puzzle box/leo in low powered games.
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
Leovold, Emissary of Trest being banned suggests that the community does care about this power level; nobody was puzzle box/leo in low powered games.
This statement is absolutely inaccurate. Leo+Wheels is the first thing every Leovold, Emissary of Trest deck started with, because that's the first thing you run across that makes use of his abilities. And Puzzle Box is absolutely a card people ran with him, since it's a repeatable wheel. That's the reason he ate a ban, because his abilities trick even "low powered" players into absolutely miserable games.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Wallycaine wrote:
2 weeks ago
because his abilities trick even "low powered" players into absolutely miserable games.
Leo + wheels is high powered intrinsically. I never met a single person who thought they were building a low powered deck with Levold and windfall. I saw some fairly low powered Leovold elfball decks and even an advisor tribal. He was actually far lower powered than Thrasios, Triton Hero if you're not using his ability.

Golos and Thrasios both have a similar effect; just using basic synergies with them is very powerful though in different ways than Leovold.

Leovold created really unpleasant games but it was primarily in the medium to high power brackets he was wreaking havoc. He was not a blight on low powered tables as I recall - I saw him a lot in 75% to the point that I had to stop playing against him it was so tiresome. But I didn't see people trotting those decks out against people's junk tier decks.

Please remember that 75% (or whatever term you want to use) decks are part of mainstream commander. Higher power doesn't mean CEDH.
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 weeks ago

pokken wrote:
2 weeks ago
Wallycaine wrote:
2 weeks ago
because his abilities trick even "low powered" players into absolutely miserable games.
Leo + wheels is high powered intrinsically. I never met a single person who thought they were building a low powered deck with Levold and windfall. I saw some fairly low powered Leovold elfball decks and even an advisor tribal. He was actually far lower powered than Thrasios, Triton Hero if you're not using his ability.

Golos and Thrasios both have a similar effect; just using basic synergies with them is very powerful though in different ways than Leovold.

Leovold created really unpleasant games but it was primarily in the medium to high power brackets he was wreaking havoc. He was absolutely not a blight on low powered tables.

Please remember that 75% (or whatever term you want to use) decks are part of mainstream commander. Higher power doesn't mean CEDH.
Ahh, good, the classic "I didn't meet them, therefore they didn't exist". I did meet them, so... don't know what to tell you beyond that. Leovold was a blight on all tables. You seem to be projecting this idea of "low powered" tables as having very strict set of ideas of what's "too powerful", which doesn't actually conform to reality. It's really informal, and plenty of people thought they were being low powered with Leovold when they were not.

Yes, 75% decks are part of mainstream commander. But the general sense seems to be that Thrasios is not an issue there either?

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Post by Mookie » 2 weeks ago

The reason why Leovold is currently banned and Thrasios isn't (nor is Golos / Kenrith) doesn't have anything to do with power level - it has to do with fun. Very simply, if someone at the table is running Leovold, the rest of the table is going to be miserable even if the Leovold deck doesn't run any wheels. He fundamentally shuts down a very large percentage of peoples' decks without requiring any additional investment - any card draw they're running is useless, their removal is ineffective, and because they can't draw cards, it's hard to even find an answer to Leovold. On the other hand, while Thrasios is certainly powerful, he also doesn't do anything to your opponents - their decks can function as designed, and still meaningfully participate in the game.

To phrase differently: Thrasios is a card that wins its controller the game, while Leovold is a card that causes its opponents to lose the game, and people have very different emotional responses to the two different situations.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 weeks ago

Wallycaine wrote:
2 weeks ago
But the general sense seems to be that Thrasios is not an issue there either?
I mean, I'll generally play against anything these days, and it generally doesn't faze me overly. So I wasn't going to chime in, but this statement probably isn't correct.

My experience of playing Thrasios, Triton Hero is as part of the 99 in my Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder theme deck. It's very much built with theme in mind rather than to be a strong deck. Sure, there are strong cards in it, but it's a non-white enchantress vorthos build.

I still remember a 1v1 kitchen-table game against my wife where Thrasios, Triton Hero hit the table along with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix somewhere along the line. I happened to have Mindmoil in play and just managed to funnel obscene amounts of mana into Thrasios, Triton Hero. At some point it just seemed like there was nothing better to do with the resources so I just kept going - I more or less saw my whole deck in the space of a single turn. Ultimately my wife went 'you know what? You finish up, I'll make us some lunch and we can call it a draw'. Which is fair enough, there comes a point where you just get sick of watching someone goldfish themselves to a win.

So yeah, I think he's pretty gross anywhere you have spare resource in all honesty. I don't know if he's banworthy per sé, but anytime I see him at any sort of table he's an instant target, whether it's high powered play or more casual. And the thing is, seeing him at a casual table is probably going to lead to a pretty skewed sort of game too, where you're banding together to nuke the merfolk into the ground to stamp out a win. Which isn't easy with a ug commander that ramps.
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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

Wallycaine wrote:
2 weeks ago
Ahh, good, the classic "I didn't meet them, therefore they didn't exist". I did meet them, so... don't know what to tell you beyond that.
Because I have no data on whether they do exist or not, I can only speak to my perceptions - I played *a lot* of commander during the time Leo was legal and the most common scenario I can recall with him is him crapping up higher powered tables.

I seriously doubt the reason he was banned was people mistakenly playing him with Teferi's Puzzle Box vs. chair tribal or whatever. I struggle to imagine that happening to a given person more than once.
Wallycaine wrote:
2 weeks ago
But the general sense seems to be that Thrasios is not an issue there either?
I do not think that's the consensus at all. One of the themes of the thread is that the higher power level you play at the more likely you think Thrasios is possibly problematic - at least that's my interpretation. You can see most of the people who have no reservations about Thrasios are folks leaning toward lower power levels.
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