SCD: Golos, Tired-Ass Pilgrim

[materpillar]

That is exactly the type of behaviour I was talking about. Targeting a player just because of their commander won't end well for anybody. I was confronted to this type of player at the beginning of my "EDH career", more than 10 years ago. My first EDH deck was helmed by Sharuum the Hegemon and I was accused of playing "combo" (I didn't even know what that meant back then). I was targeted all the time, being Mindslavered mercilessly and all my lands being destroyed, one by one. If I wasn't already playing casual multiplayer with other, nicer people, I would have probably quit right there. I'm sad to still see this type of behaviour being present, 10 years later. If you're unhappy about a particular type of card, just communicate instead of blindly hating on the player who is not responsible for this design.

Sorry, for clarity, I didn't mean in game getting focused down. I meant that the amount of pre-game Rule 0 talks where I had to fight through waves of negativity was exhausting.

The game in question I killed all three players without activating Golos (using Ancient Ooze and Mindshrieker) and all they did the entire postgame talk was complain about how busted Golos is.

[Dragonlover]

You know what this proves? Y'all need dedicated groups. Ignore what someones doing one country, one county, hell one table over, play with the folks that sit in the same mentality-space that you do, be that 'cards I opened in the last month plus a legend that kinda works', cEDH or any of the many many points in between, and you'll have a much better time. Other than my wincons, I've seen one other Golos deck in my playgroup, and the guy stuffed like over 50 different lands into it and essentially played 5 colour Gitrog. Thing is, he's a regular, we know he's a bit more of a Spike than the rest of us, so we adjust our play patterns to suit. Nobody who has been playing down our shop for any length of time hates on my wincons deck because they know its a pile of jank that gets elevated to about precon level by having Golos at the helm, and if somebody new did show up and start targeting me just because Golos was at the helm they'd be argued out of it by people that weren't me.

Incidentally, if it helps, EDH isn't the only space I see conversations like this. 40K is very close to Commander in terms of the discussions and approaches it generates, and the 40K community has been having these conversations for longer and is nowhere close to a resolution either beyond 'find a playgroup that works and if you don't have one make it yourself'. They also have the same problem of getting wrapped up in 'the meta'. There is no meta. The meta (outside of tournaments) is an illusion, once you get past about ten people. My playgroup has a meta, but it's not the same one your playgroup has. Unless you also have a guy playing a Sygg, River Cutthroat deck where Drake Haven is a kill on sight card, of course.

Dragonlover

[Dragoon]

Sorry, for clarity, I didn't mean in game getting focused down. I meant that the amount of pre-game Rule 0 talks where I had to fight through waves of negativity was exhausting.

The game in question I killed all three players without activating Golos (using Ancient Ooze and Mindshrieker) and all they did the entire postgame talk was complain about how busted Golos is.

OK, I had not understood it that way. If they just don't like it and you need to convince them every time, I think there is no real solution. If you've won without even activating Golos, and that still didn't open their eyes about Golos in particular, I don't know what will, honestly. (I'm curious at how you managed to do that though)

@Dragonlover: That sums up pretty nicely my sentiment as well.

[RxPhantom]

Sorry, for clarity, I didn't mean in game getting focused down. I meant that the amount of pre-game Rule 0 talks where I had to fight through waves of negativity was exhausting.

The game in question I killed all three players without activating Golos (using Ancient Ooze and Mindshrieker) and all they did the entire postgame talk was complain about how busted Golos is.

OK, I had not understood it that way. If they just don't like it and you need to convince them every time, I think there is no real solution. If you've won without even activating Golos, and that still didn't open their eyes about Golos in particular, I don't know what will, honestly. (I'm curious at how you managed to do that though)

@Dragonlover: That sums up pretty nicely my sentiment as well.

Winning without Golos in your Golos deck doesn't actually absolve him of his sins or prove that he's not a problematic commander. Earlier in this thread, I said I'll target the Golos player every time. You can paint that as a mean-spirited vendetta, but it's actually T0 threat assessment. Every game devolves into racing Golos to that first activation and hoping that if/when he gets there, it doesn't gain an insurmountable lead. No amount of "but MY deck..." changes the words printed on the card.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been destroyed after hearing some variation of "this deck isn't very powerful/good," I'd have several dollars (I didn't want to exaggerate lol). Heck, I understand that activating that ability is probably a lot of fun for the pilot; it's just that all too often it's a slog for everyone else.

When it comes to banning, I don't think it's gonna happen. He's too popular.

[Dragoon]

Winning without Golos in your Golos deck doesn't actually absolve him of his sins or prove that he's not a problematic commander.

Again, where did I say that Golos wasn't busted? I say that it is possible to play Golos and not automatically enter that boring "cast/activate Golos over and over again" pattern. Just like you can build other popular generals without necessarily being obnoxious or boring to play against. @materpillar seems to also play that way.

Earlier in this thread, I said I'll target the Golos player every time. You can paint that as a mean-spirited vendetta, but it's actually T0 thread assessment. Every game devolves into racing Golos to that first activation and hoping that if/when he gets there, it doesn't gain an insurmountable lead. No amount of "but MY deck..." changes the words printed on the card.

That kind of behaviour is toxic for the format in my eyes, it can make new players flee, thinking that Magic is not a game for them. What you are doing is stigmatizing the player for what they like and whom they chose as a commander, without having a care in the world for what they actually intend to do. This is incredibly egotistical and dismissive. If you don't see what is wrong with it, then I certainly don't want to play against you. My self-expression ability, which is supposed to be one of the pillars of this format, is being completely shut down by your bias. If you are that traumatized by Golos, just don't engage in the games involving him, but don't make it miserable for the Golos player without reason. I was almost thrown out of this format by people like you, 10 years ago, and I will actively fight anyone having this kind of behaviour.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been destroyed after hearing some variation of "this deck isn't very powerful/good," I'd have several dollars (I didn't want to exaggerate lol). Heck, I understand that activating that ability is probably a lot of fun for the pilot; it's just that all too often it's a slog for everyone else.

If I had a cent for every time I've been destroyed after hearing some variation of "that general is degenerated and so is your deck", I could probably afford a booster pack by now. What is so difficult about communicating?

[materpillar]

Winning without Golos in your Golos deck doesn't actually absolve him of his sins or prove that he's not a problematic commander.

Yah, it kind of does. At least as far as that game was concerned. I cast a bunch of non-Golos spells that killed my opponents and their take away was that Golos is busted. The problem wasn't Golos, the problem was they didn't cast Terminate on my Mindshrieker and then they got hit for 30+ when I milled Draco and friends. They didn't Terminate my Dryad of the Ilysian Grove when I had Cabal Coffers on the battlefield. They didn't have any creature on the battlefield to block my Ancient Ooze on T7. I intentionally made my deck extremely easy to interact with... and they just didn't... at all.

But no, I was playing Golos and they had already decided before the game that Golos is a problem. Golos is busted. Nothing matters but Golos. Golos, Golos, Golos. I cast Soulfire Eruption on turn 5 and it did 9 damage to everyone. Oh no! 9 damage! They sky is falling! We've already lost the game! Guess who is to blame? It's Golos! No self-reflection or board state analysis. No pondering what they could have done better. No appreciation for the fact that I hard cast Ancient Ooze. Just the low, low hanging fruit that Golos is the issue and %$#% about Golos to make themselves feel better.

For clarity, I'm not trying project these opinions onto you. I'm just still frustrated from the amount of toxicity I received.

No amount of "but MY deck..." changes the words printed on the card.

I really want to build Craw Wurm / Colossal Dreadmaw terrible draft chaft creature tribal Golos that just aims to pull his value slot machine as much as possible and only dumps out cards that I could literally get for free and see how much salt I get. I'm pretty sure it'd be a ton.

[pokken]

If you suddenly play MLD without warning in a curated group that is clearly against it, I think it's a fair reaction (although, if I interpret the word "nastygram" correctly, they should not insult you for playing that either). On the other hand, if it's a pickup game and the players didn't express that they didn't want to play against MLD, then it's on them for not being clear about that.

Was on MTGO two people playing the same Golos Field of the Dead deck Which was interestingly the reason I had Fall in there in the first place which is that it's basically impossible to beat those decks without repeated MLD or grave hate+land destruction [ or infinite comboing over them ] , and at that period in time Golos Field was basically 25% of the online meta.

[Dragoon]

If you suddenly play MLD without warning in a curated group that is clearly against it, I think it's a fair reaction (although, if I interpret the word "nastygram" correctly, they should not insult you for playing that either). On the other hand, if it's a pickup game and the players didn't express that they didn't want to play against MLD, then it's on them for not being clear about that.

Was on MTGO two people playing the same Golos Field of the Dead deck Which was interestingly the reason I had Fall in there in the first place which is that it's basically impossible to beat those decks without repeated MLD or grave hate+land destruction [ or infinite comboing over them ] , and at that period in time Golos Field was basically 25% of the online meta.

If you play MTGO then anything is fair game as far as I know, there is no social contract or anything of the sort. You don't have to feel bad (but I guess you don't anyway, haha) for playing Fall of the Thran.

[pokken]

Was on MTGO two people playing the same Golos Field of the Dead deck Which was interestingly the reason I had Fall in there in the first place which is that it's basically impossible to beat those decks without repeated MLD or grave hate+land destruction [ or infinite comboing over them ] , and at that period in time Golos Field was basically 25% of the online meta.

If you play MTGO then anything is fair game as far as I know, there is no social contract or anything of the sort. You don't have to feel bad (but I guess you don't anyway, haha) for playing Fall of the Thran.

Believe me I don't I just remember it because of the irony of people playing Field decks complaining about anything. Golos for Field of the Dead is just about the most emblematic deckbuilding choice of what's problematic about golos. "starting on turn 5 I am going to make 2 or 3 zombies a turn forever hope you guys like it. p.s. it's not an infinite combo so it's casual!"

[Dragoon]

Believe me I don't I just remember it because of the irony of people playing Field decks complaining about anything. Golos for Field of the Dead is just about the most emblematic deckbuilding choice of what's problematic about golos. "starting on turn 5 I am going to make 2 or 3 zombies a turn forever hope you guys like it. p.s. it's not an infinite combo so it's casual!"

I never came across Golos / Field of the Dead, I guess MTGO is its own beast in that regard. Although, if I remember correctly, Field was the reason for the Golos ban in Brawl, this may explain why this archetype is now prevalent in the online community. I think it is present in the Golos lands deck at my LGS but the pilot doesn't seem to specifically care for it all that much. Out of curiosity, is an exile removal that can also exile lands not an option? Stuff like Archon of Justice or Ashen Rider?

[pokken]

I think it is present in the Golos lands deck at my LGS but the pilot doesn't seem to specifically care for it all that much. Out of curiosity, is an exile removal that can also exile lands not an option? Stuff like Archon of Justice or Ashen Rider?

I am not sure what MTGO is like now - but 6-7mo ago it was pretty golos heavy lol. The meta changes fast.

Those things work for sure but things that can exile lands are pretty few and far between and often very niche (e.g. sac outlet reanimation heavy decks). Every color has some kinda answers to Golos pretty much (although black struggles and red isn't great) but they're often bad or have very specific deckbuilding consequences.

Like playing Collector Ouphe in green, it's a card that beats Golos handily but is pretty bad sometimes and really annoying to a lot of people, so you get faced with the question of do I warp my deck to not have artifacts so I can run this hate card and make a lot of people unhappy who aren't really deserving it, or not?:P

[Dragoon]

Those things work for sure but things that can exile lands are pretty few and far between and often very niche (e.g. sac outlet reanimation heavy decks). Every color has some kinda answers to Golos pretty much (although black struggles and red isn't great) but they're often bad or have very specific deckbuilding consequences.

I guess Karn Liberated and Scour from Existence are simply too slow. Caustic Rain is also too narrow. Although weak, Invader Parasite looks fun in that situation. Exile the field of the first player. If the second one fetches their copy, shock them, then blink the parasite.

Like playing Collector Ouphe in green, it's a card that beats Golos handily but is pretty bad sometimes and really annoying to a lot of people, so you get faced with the question of do I warp my deck to not have artifacts so I can run this hate card and make a lot of people unhappy who aren't really deserving it, or not?:P

I think Collector Ouphe is plenty reasonable as an answer to problem artifacts. It's a creature so any colour can deal with it and it's, imo, not as bad as Aura Shards in terms of impact. I still need to build a true enchantress deck at some point (I've only played auras with Uril, the Miststalker and Bruna, Light of Alabaster so far) and when I build it, I do intend to put Stony Silence in it, as I probably won't be playing many, if any, artifact. Black is now gaining enchantment removal and I think Daretti, Scrap Savant has enough tools to deal with it at this point (but I might be wrong).

[RxPhantom]

Earlier in this thread, I said I'll target the Golos player every time. You can paint that as a mean-spirited vendetta, but it's actually T0 threat assessment. Every game devolves into racing Golos to that first activation and hoping that if/when he gets there, it doesn't gain an insurmountable lead. No amount of "but MY deck..." changes the words printed on the card.

That kind of behaviour is toxic for the format in my eyes, it can make new players flee, thinking that Magic is not a game for them. What you are doing is stigmatizing the player for what they like and whom they chose as a commander, without having a care in the world for what they actually intend to do. This is incredibly egotistical and dismissive. If you don't see what is wrong with it, then I certainly don't want to play against you. My self-expression ability, which is supposed to be one of the pillars of this format, is being completely shut down by your bias. If you are that traumatized by Golos, just don't engage in the games involving him, but don't make it miserable for the Golos player without reason. I was almost thrown out of this format by people like you, 10 years ago, and I will actively fight anyone having this kind of behaviour.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been destroyed after hearing some variation of "this deck isn't very powerful/good," I'd have several dollars (I didn't want to exaggerate lol). Heck, I understand that activating that ability is probably a lot of fun for the pilot; it's just that all too often it's a slog for everyone else.

If I had a cent for every time I've been destroyed after hearing some variation of "that general is degenerated and so is your deck", I could probably afford a booster pack by now. What is so difficult about communicating?

What's so difficult amount communicating, you ask? Quite a bit if all you're going to do is make poorly constructed straw men from your opponents' arguments. The amount of words you put in my mouth and the conclusions to which you leapt are staggering. You are so off base and frankly out of line that it's not worth engaging any further.

[Dragoon]

What's so difficult amount communicating, you ask? Quite a bit if all you're going to do is make poorly constructed straw men from your opponents' arguments. The amount of words you put in my mouth and the conclusions to which you leapt are staggering. You are so off base and frankly out of line that it's not worth engaging any further.

You just said that you don't care what the other player is saying. If they play Golos, then you will target them no matter what because it is good threat assessment. How is that not stigmatizing someone because of their taste? You can hide under threat assessment all you want, if you haven't played against this specific deck, you can't say for sure how it is going to unfold. Commander is not a 1-card format, it is a 100-card format. Who is straw manning his opponents' arguments when you literally act like all Golos decks are the same?

I'll just quote your own first post in this topic which made me react:

I hate out every Golos deck I ever see. The last time I did it, the deck's pilot acted shocked and gobsmacked that I was targeting them. I told him it would be like that whenever I play against a Golos deck, as it's the most degenerate, obscene value-generating, format-ruining commander since...maybe forever. He didn't see the problem and just whined about being ganged up on.

Finally, I used my Merieke Ri Berit deck to steal Golos and spam his ability as many times as possible, with the goal of showing him how miserable it was to play against. No such luck there. He was miserable, but still doesn't seem to understand or care how much fun he sucks out of a game.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a new player playing Golos and being confronted to that in their first game. How would you react?

[pokken]

When it comes to banning, I don't think it's gonna happen. He's too popular.

The RC has - to be fair - proven they are willing to take a beating for the format.

They got absolutely incinerated for Paradox Engine and Prophet of Kruphix, cards with 10%+ market share (PoK was probably close to 20% at its peak).

So I have more hope than you I think. If they don't ban it, eventually Golos is going to become the default best commander for so many archetypes it's going to be quite boring

[materpillar]

So I have more hope than you I think. If they don't ban it, eventually Golos is going to become the default best commander for so many archetypes it's going to be quite boring

It is startling how often the answer to the question "Would this deck be stronger if I changed the general to Golos and one land to Cascading Cataracts?" is YES.

Of all my decks I can only say with confidence that isn't the case for Lazav, the Multifarious. I could make a case for the The Ur-Dragon because I get so much value out of that 1 discount but I'm not positive about that.

[pokken]

It is startling how often the answer to the question "Would this deck be stronger if I changed the general to Golos and one land to Cascading Cataracts" is YES.

Of all my decks I can only say with confidence that isn't the case for Lazav, the Multifarious. I could make a case for the The Ur-Dragon because I get so much value out of that 1 discount but I'm not positive about that.

Yar. It mostly takes pretty out there mechanics to override the tremendous value + Land tutoring that Golos provides. Usually if your deck is doing anything internally synergistic then ramp1 + 3 cards off the top will be better than whatever your general is doing.

And obviously "better" isn't the metric we look for in commander, but it is a pretty appalling thing about Golos' design that he just fits into so many decks.

@Dragoon's example earlier of all the different archetypes of Golos is pretty telling in that way--

Golos is probably the best at:

* Enchantress
* Lands
* Artifacts
* Superfriends
* Reanimator
* Goodstuff

Which is a pretty huge cross-section of the popular archetypes in EDH.

[Dragoon]

Golos is highly popular right now but I think this will eventually fade out. It might also be linked to COVID and the fact that not many people rework their decks during this time due to not playing as often? I don't know.

I remember Animar was drawing quite the ire at the time, so did Derevi, so did Meren and many others. I think Brawl exposed Golos more than the usual, due to WotC actually trying to push that format. Maybe this indirectly promoted it at the same level of popularity as precons commanders. Golos is also the first 5 colours commander to be so open-ended so the situation is quite unique. It is difficult to tell if this will end up going away by itself after some time, but I think it will. He just probably is hitting more heights of popularity than its predecessors due to its 5 colours open-endedness, but that doesn't mean that people won't show fatigue at some point.

Golos is probably the best at:

* Enchantress
* Lands
* Artifacts
* Superfriends
* Reanimator
* Goodstuff

Which is a pretty huge cross-section of the popular archetypes in EDH.

Golos cover many themes without a doubt, I think it is actually one of his saving graces in a weird sense though. I would be more bothered seeing Atraxa, Praetors' Voice or Muldrotha, the Gravetide all the time for example, as their builds usually tend to always gravitate towards the same cards, according to the EDHrec data. Outside of the Lands theme, I don't think Golos is number one on anything else though, in terms of number of decks being played of that archetype. I could check on EDHrec if it seems like a worthwhile point of discussion. Although, an evolution of those values according to time would be much more interesting, but I don't know if this is doable as a normal user on EDHrec?

[pokken]

Golos is highly popular right now but I think this will eventually fade out.

I don't think so. Part of it is his insanely broad appeal (discussed below). He's been super popular for going on 2 years.

Golos cover many themes without a doubt, I think it is actually one of his saving graces in a weird sense though.

I disagree. He takes all those archetypes and makes them better *and* more homogenized from a commander perspective.

You present it as if he only supersedes annoying commanders, but he supersedes lots of more fun commanders too. historically there have been a bajillion different approaches to Lands -- I've seen CoL, Thrasios/etc, Kynaios/Tiro, 3 different Omnaths, Borborygmos, Windgrace, Korvold, etc. Golos is basically better than all of those now, except maybe Bobo I guess.

Golos is nearly completely taking over the "etb value" deck archetype as well which while not my favorite used to be pretty diverse. Golos is basically strictly the best blink/etb commander and it ain't particularly close unless you really want to Palinchron combo with Yarok, the Desecrated

For every "wow, Urza, Lord High Artificer artifacts sure is more annoying than Golos, Tireless Pilgrim artifacts, there're probably 10 "wow Tuvasa the Sunlit would be way more fun to see more of than Golos, Tireless Pilgrim enchantress.

Outside of the Lands theme, I don't think Golos is number one on anything else though, in terms of number of decks being played of that archetype. I could check on EDHrec if it seems like a worthwhile point of discussion. Although, an evolution of those values according to time would be much more interesting, but I don't know if this is doable as a normal user on EDHrec?

Does it matter if he's #2 on everything? I suspect he's probably not. But he's probably #2 or 3 on a ton of things. I mean sure if you want go ahead, but I don't know that it changes anything.

The only thing really holding him back from complete domination is being 5c, and stuff like The World Tree and Cascading Cataracts continue to mitigate that. My Monogreen Nyxbloom Ancient Golos deck with land untappers was truly insane even before World Tree

I expect that the longer Golos is around the more convergence there will be as well. So while today Golos may be only 10% as represented (117 decks) as Tuvasa (~1000 decks) in enchantments, I think that changes over time most likely.

[Dragoon]

I disagree. He takes all those archetypes and makes them better *and* more homogenized from a commander perspective.

I agree in terms of power level but I don't think everyone just builds the best stuff possible every time. I seriously think many people overestimates the number of players who are "in it to win it".

You present it as if he only supersedes annoying commanders, but he supersedes lots of more fun commanders too. historically there have been a bajillion different approaches to Lands -- I've seen CoL, Thrasios/etc, Kynaios/Tiro, 3 different Omnaths, Borborygmos, Windgrace, Korvold, etc. Golos is basically better than all of those now, except maybe Bobo I guess.

No, my point was that the toxic players will stay toxic no matter what and that not every plan has a backup commander, especially for the least supported themes. The point of contention is to know how less toxic those decks will end up being, versus how many decks will purely disappear. It might be way more, it might be way less, there is no real, observable data to be sure. Otherwise, the RC would have already proceed with his ban, using those data to back up the decision.

Does it matter if he's #2 on everything? I suspect he's probably not. But he's probably #2 or 3 on a ton of things. I mean sure if you want go ahead, but I don't know that it changes anything.

If he's #2 on everything, it sure matters. Ditto for #3. I just think there is a heavy confirmation bias towards Golos in this topic and that more factual data could help shed light on the whole situation.

---

Golos is nearly completely taking over the "etb value" deck archetype as well which while not my favorite used to be pretty diverse. Golos is basically strictly the best blink/etb commander and it ain't particularly close unless you really want to Palinchron combo with Yarok, the Desecrated.

Okay, let's start with the blink theme then:

Blink

#1 - Roon of the Hidden Realm with 422 decks
#2 - Brago, King Eternal with 360 decks
#3 - Aminatou, the Fateshifter with 316 decks
#4 - Yorion, Sky Nomad at 255 decks
#5 - Ephara, God of the Polis at 217 decks
#6 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 138 decks

So Golos still hasn't cracked the top 5 for blink decks. I don't know if it is increasing or decreasing though, but this is where it stands at right now. I don't find any "ETB value" theme. The most played themes for Yarok, the Desecrated are Lands (495 decks - 13%) and Pod (434 decks - 11%). Yarok seems to be very open-ended though, as there is a myriad of other themes for him. Worthy of note, Golos is also the only option for 5 colours blink, unless you want to be forced to play ally tribal with General Tazri or scarecrow tribal with Reaper King (17 decks).

For every "wow, Urza, Lord High Artificer artifacts sure is more annoying than Golos, Tireless Pilgrim artifacts, there're probably 10 "wow Tuvasa the Sunlit would be way more fun to see more of than Golos, Tireless Pilgrim enchantress.

Let's continue!

Enchantress

#1 - Tuvasa the Sunlit at 1084 decks
#2 - Estrid, the Masked at 442 decks
#3 - Daxos the Returned at 400 decks
#4 - Karametra, God of Harvests at 323 decks
#5 - Sisay, Weatherlight Captain at 289 decks
#6 - Ghen, Arcanum Weaver at 227 decks
#7 - Zur the Enchanter at 143 decks
#8 - Alela, Artful Provocateur at 131 decks
#9 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 117 decks

Here, Golos barely makes it to the top 10. Its only real competition for 5 colours enchantress is Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. There is also approximately 10 times more Tuvasa enchantress than Golos enchantress, so I think we're safe on that side.

Now that's it for the two themes you mentioned, let's pursue with the other ones:

Lands

#1 - Lord Windgrace at 2649 decks
#2 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 1528 decks
#3 - Omnath, Locus of Creation at 929 decks
#4 - Tatyova, Benthic Druid at 744 decks
#5 - Omnath, Locus of the Roil at 645 decks

This is Golos strongest theme and he is still not #1, standing below 60% of the number of Windgrace decks.

Big Mana

#1 - Jodah, Archmage Eternal at 880 decks
#2 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 399 decks
#3 - Kozilek, the Great Distortion at 365 decks
#4 - Jhoira of the Ghitu at 346 decks
#5 - Mayael the Anima at 187 decks

Golos is also #2 here, but it does not represent half of the number of Jodah decks with the same theme.

Planeswalkers

#1 - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice at 1849 decks
#2 - Sisay, Weatherlight Captain at 623 decks
#3 - Nicol Bolas, the Ravager // Nicol Bolas, the Arisen at 370 decks
#4 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 366 decks
#5 - Ramos, Dragon Engine at 231 decks

Cracking the top 5 again here, but only at 40% of the number of Sisay decks and less than a fifth of Atraxa.

Artifacts

Golos doesn't even appear on the page there, so no problem

Eldrazi Tribal

#1 - Kozilek, the Great Distortion at 791 decks
#2 - Morophon, the Boundless at 410 decks
#3 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 177 decks
#4 - Animar, Soul of Elements at 148 decks
#5 - Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger at 142 decks

Yup, top 5 again, but less than half of the Morophon decks and less than a fifth of the Kozilek ones.

Devotion

#1 - Morophon, the Boundless at 260 decks
#2 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 126 decks
#3 - Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge at 98 decks
#4 - Child of Alara at 78 decks
#5 - Karona, False God at 73 decks

Number 2 here as well, with a bit less than half of the Morophon decks.

God Tribal

#1 - Morophon, the Boundless at 328 decks
#2 - Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge at 158 decks
#3 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 126 decks
#4 - Child of Alara at 91 decks
#5 - Karona, False God at 82 decks

Ramp

#1 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 119 decks
#2 - Omnath, Locus of Rage at 97 decks
#3 - Tatyova, Benthic Druid at 42 decks
#4 - Jodah, Archmage Eternal at 31 decks
#4 - Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar at 31 decks

Yay, Golos is finally #1 somewhere, and it's in a really minor category ...

---

So, what can we try to conclude from this sample of data?

• Golos doesn't even crack the top 5 for 3 of his top 10 themes: Blink, Enchantress and Artifacts, all well supported themes that offer a variety of options.
• He is number 2 in two of those 10 themes: Lands and Big Mana, but the top commanders of those categories still have more than double the number of Golos decks of that type. Outside of Child of Alara, he is also the only option for 5 colours Lands.
• He is number 3 for Eldrazi Tribal, which pretty much doesn't offer much synergistic choices anyway outside of colorless and Morophon.
• He is number 3 for God Tribal, being already supplanted by Esika. He still is above Esika for Devotion though, at #2 below ... Morophon.
• He is number 1 only for ramp, a minor category

My take is that Golos is not domineering in any particular theme or strategy. He is open-ended and thus appears in many themes, but as long as a theme is well supported, Golos will just fade away and make room for the new options. That's what lead me to believe that he will end up losing popularity as time goes by. I don't think people playing Golos necessarily want a broken commander, they just want to be able to compete. As long as WotC gives them specific options for their themes, they will leave Golos in the dust.

A good comparison might be with Morophon, the Boundless who happened to show up in three of the top 10 Golos themes. If your tribe is not supported by a commander, you play Morophon. If it is, you play with your on-theme commander, even if it is probably less powerful.

I might be wrong of course! What is your take with those data?

[pokken]

My take is that Golos is not domineering in any particular theme or strategy.
...
I might be wrong of course! What is your take with those data?

My reading is...somewhat different

Golos is a popular commander in many popular themes in addition to being the most popular commander period. It's pretty unusual for a commander to show up as a top commander in more than a couple themes (ex: atraxa in walkers and +1/+1 counters, but not in lands or enchantress:P).

It's worth noting that in most of those categories Golos is better than the other approaches, and a huge number of them are simply inertia -- things like Atraxa, Praetors' Voice still being immensely popular in Superfriends, because she's been out 4 more years. Same with Windgrace and lands.

Lands is probably the only demographic I can speak semi-authoritatively to there, being something of a connoisseur of the archetype, but I know a bunch of people who have converted their lands decks to Golos. It's only a matter of time before he completely dominates that archetype, especially because in Lands you really do not need to deal with a 5c manabase if you don't want to (with world tree and cataracts you can basically play simic lands and just be better than Tatyova and Aesi as well).

Does being top 5 in 3 different very large archetypes not concern you? (lands, Planeswalkers and big mana)

[FenrirRex]

Unfortunately, seeing this one commander get into the top of so many archetypes is... highly problematic. I can't add much more to the conversation that has not already been said, but I can be an additional voice that finds the ubiquity and repetitive play elements of Golos (and admittedly a lot of other 5c goodstuff commanders) to be issues for the format at large. It might be one thing if he didn't pay for his own tax, sometimes more than his own tax, with many of the options that he can fetch out.

There are plenty of arguments to be made for not running the optimal Golos strategy, regardless of which archetype he is helming, but in my experience that is often wishful thinking.

Similarly, developing a rapport within one or two playgroups may not be a possibility for many players, so dealing with the stigma attached to Golos is likely to be a recursive problem, even if attempting to run less than optimal strategies with him. The play patterns are impressively unexciting for anyone sitting opposite of Golos- when the wheels are turning and that efficient ability is firing off (fueled by his initial ETB no less), the quality of what's getting played for free almost doesn't matter. Free is free, and the opposition can only enjoy that masturbatory line of play so much (and typically not at all).

[onering]

No amount of "but MY deck..." changes the words printed on the card.

I really want to build Craw Wurm / Colossal Dreadmaw terrible draft chaft creature tribal Golos that just aims to pull his value slot machine as much as possible and only dumps out cards that I could literally get for free and see how much salt I get. I'm pretty sure it'd be a ton.
[/quote]

You won't get any. I actually built a legends from Legends tribal Golos, and it sucks. It can still win, because that ability is such value town that even straight up garbage becomes viable, but the weakness of the cards themselves seems to placate most people.

[onering]

I think it is present in the Golos lands deck at my LGS but the pilot doesn't seem to specifically care for it all that much. Out of curiosity, is an exile removal that can also exile lands not an option? Stuff like Archon of Justice or Ashen Rider?

I am not sure what MTGO is like now - but 6-7mo ago it was pretty golos heavy lol. The meta changes fast.

Those things work for sure but things that can exile lands are pretty few and far between and often very niche (e.g. sac outlet reanimation heavy decks). Every color has some kinda answers to Golos pretty much (although black struggles and red isn't great) but they're often bad or have very specific deckbuilding consequences.

Like playing Collector Ouphe in green, it's a card that beats Golos handily but is pretty bad sometimes and really annoying to a lot of people, so you get faced with the question of do I warp my deck to not have artifacts so I can run this hate card and make a lot of people unhappy who aren't really deserving it, or not?:P

From my experience, it averages about 1 Golos a game. Some have none, some have multiple. Its disgusting. And I'm not seeing anything unique or creative, its all speedrun Golos and spin the wheel.

[Dragoon]

Golos is a popular commander in many popular themes in addition to being the most popular commander period. It's pretty unusual for a commander to show up as a top commander in more than a couple themes (ex: atraxa in walkers and +1/+1 counters, but not in lands or enchantress:P).

But Atraxa has nothing to do with lands, nor with enchantments. Golos showing in Enchantress is imo due to the fact that there is simply no dedicated 5-color options (Sisay is in there as well, with more than double the number of Golos enchantress decks).

Lands is probably the only demographic I can speak semi-authoritatively to there, being something of a connoisseur of the archetype, but I know a bunch of people who have converted their lands decks to Golos. It's only a matter of time before he completely dominates that archetype, especially because in Lands you really do not need to deal with a 5c manabase if you don't want to (with world tree and cataracts you can basically play simic lands and just be better than Tatyova and Aesi as well).

I can also see Golos becoming number 1 in Lands, but I don't see this becoming true for the other categories.

---

Let's look for more context by taking a look at the top 5 themes of the 10 most popular commanders:

Golos, Tireless Pilgrim

#2 in Lands
#2 in Big Mana
#4 in Planeswalkers
N/A in Artifacts
#3 in Eldrazi Tribal

=> Top 5 among 4 of its top 5 themes, but not number 1 in any of them

Atraxa, Praetors' Voice

#1 in +1/+1 counters
#1 in Planeswalkers
#1 in Infect
#1 in Energy
#4 in Saproling Tokens

=> Top 5 in each of her top 5 themes, even being number 1 in almost all of them

Muldrotha, the Gravetide

#2 in Sacrifice
#6 in Graveyard
#17 in Pod
#8 in Mill
#2 in Primal Surge

=> Much more one dimensional design, only showing in the top 5 of two themes

Korvold, Fae-Cursed King

#1 in Sacrifice
#5 in Aristocrats
#10 in Lands
#6 in Goblin Tribal
N/A in Pod

=> Again, rather one dimensional design, only showing in the top 5 of two themes

Kenrith, the Returned King

#4 in Pod
#1 in Politics
#3 in Group Hug
#3 in Cycling
#3 in Knights Tribal

=> Top 5 in each of the top 5 themes, being number 1 in one of them

Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow

#1 in Ninjutsu
#1 in Ninja Tribal
#2 in Topdeck
#5 in Extra Turns (tied with Jhoira of the Ghitu)
N/A in Snow

=> Very one-dimensional design, so obviously number 1 in her themes of predilection

Yarok, the Desecrated

#7 in Lands
#1 in Pod (tied with Prime Speaker Vannifar)
#6 in Landfall
#2 in Energy
#6 in Primal Surge

=> An open-ended design, scoring top 5 in two of themes and doing well in the other three

Alela, Artful Provocateur

#1 in Unnatural (mix of artifacts and enchantments)
#11 in Artifacts
#1 in Faerie Tribal
#8 in Enchantment
#7 in Flying

=> Due to her hybrid design, she is not as efficient in three of the themes but she still scores honourably well.

Edgar Markov

#1 in Vampire Tribal
#2 in Lifegain
N/A in Sacrifice
N/A in +1/+1 counters
N/A in Madness

=> Like Yuriko, Edgar is very one-dimensional and only scores well in two of his themes.

Sisay, Weatherlight Captain

#1 in Historic
#1 in Legends
#2 in Planeswalkers
#5 in Enchantress
#1 in Jegantha Companion

=> Top 5 in each of them, even top 1 in three of them (although that last one is somewhat weird).

All in all, I don't see how Golos is clearly more domineering than the others. If we take a look at the other two 5 colours open-ended legends of the top 10, they look to score even better than him. Yuriko and Edgar are the only two exceptions with such a narrow design.

---

Does being top 5 in 3 different very large archetypes not concern you? (lands, Planeswalkers and big mana)

For lands, maybe, but Golos can be number 1 somewhere, I don't really mind all that much. For planeswalkers and big mana though, not at all. Atraxa still dominates the first archetype like nobody's business and Jodah still has twice as many decks as Golos in the latter.

But I can understand the argument, so let's take a look at the top 5 commanders of the top 10 themes!

Artifacts - 17118 decks

#1 Breya, Etherium Shaper at 1989 decks (11,6 %)
#2 Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain at 1537 decks
#3 Urza, Lord High Artificer at 1024 decks
#4 Saheeli, the Gifted at 1007 decks
#5 Daretti, Scrap Savant at 837 decks

Aristocrat - 11144 decks

#1 Teysa Karlov at 2507 decks (22,5 %)
#2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth at 1784 decks
#3 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician at 757 decks
#4 Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker at 680 decks
#5 Korvold, Fae-Cursed King at 370 decks

Lifegain - 10254 decks

#1 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic at 1576 decks (15,4 %)
#2 Edgar Markov at 1397 decks
#3 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth at 960 decks
#4 Karlov of the Ghost Council at 856 decks
#5 Liesa, Shroud of Dusk at 634 decks

Wheel - 9646 decks

#1 Nekusar, the Mindrazer at 2220 decks (23,0 %)
#2 The Locust God at 1477 decks
#3 Xyris, the Writhing Storm at 1226 decks
#4 Niv-Mizzet, Parun at 1093 decks
#5 Brallin, Skyshark Rider // Shabraz, the Skyshark at 621 decks

Lands - 9607 decks

#1 - Lord Windgrace at 2649 decks (27,6 %)
#2 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 1528 decks
#3 - Omnath, Locus of Creation at 929 decks
#4 - Tatyova, Benthic Druid at 744 decks
#5 - Omnath, Locus of the Roil at 645 decks

Sacrifice - 8930 decks

#1 Korvold, Fae-Cursed King at 3216 decks (36 %)
#2 Muldrotha, the Gravetide at 1904 decks
#3 Meren of Clan Nel Toth at 538 decks
#4 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest at 267 decks
#5 Titania, Protector of Argoth at 248 decks

+1/+1 Counter - 8820 decks

#1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice at 1205 decks (13,6 %)
#2 Skullbriar, the Walking Grave at 568 decks
#3 Gargos, Vicious Watcher at 561 decks
#4 Pir, Imaginative Rascal // Toothy, Imaginary Friend at 531 decks
#5 Ezuri, Claw of Progress at 515 decks

Equipment - 8126 decks

#1 Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale at 1974 decks (24,3 %)
#2 Sram, Senior Edificer at 664 decks
#3 Akiri, Fearless Voyager at 534 decks
#4 Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist // Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh at 485 decks
#5 Valduk, Keeper of the Flame at 455 decks

Pod - 6506 decks

#1 Yarok, the Desecrated at 434 decks (6,7 %)
#1 Prime Speaker Vannifar at 434 decks (6,7 %)
#2 Animar, Soul of Elements at 353 decks
#3 Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver at 350 decks
#4 Kenrith, the Returned King at 325 decks

Aura - 6456 decks

#1 Tuvasa the Sunlit at 1027 decks (15,9 %)
#2 Siona, Captain of the Pyleas at 840 decks
#3 Uril, the Miststalker at 739 decks
#4 Bruna, Light of Alabaster at 644 decks
#5 Estrid, the Masked at 625 decks

This is the top 10 themes. The only commanders appearing more than once are Korvold and Meren. Note: more than a third of the sacrifice decks are helmed by Korvold!

Enchantments is number 11, so let's add it in:

Enchantment - 6323 decks

#1 - Tuvasa the Sunlit at 1084 decks (17,1 %)
#2 - Estrid, the Masked at 442 decks
#3 - Daxos the Returned at 400 decks
#4 - Karametra, God of Harvests at 323 decks
#5 - Sisay, Weatherlight Captain at 289 decks

Planeswalkers is number 13:

Planeswalker - 5760 decks

#1 - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice at 1849 decks (32,1 % !!!)
#2 - Sisay, Weatherlight Captain at 623 decks
#3 - Nicol Bolas, the Ravager // Nicol Bolas, the Arisen at 370 decks
#4 - Golos, Tireless Pilgrim at 366 decks
#5 - Ramos, Dragon Engine at 231 decks

Big Mana is way below so I won't really bother.

So overall, I'd say no, I'm not any more concerned by Golos than by Kenrith, Sisay, Atraxa or Korvold. Popular commanders are popular, but I think Golos at least has the merits of spreading his popularity over lots of different themes, unlike some of the other powerhouses in the top 10 of EDHrec.