[MCD] Companions are horrible.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Is that first part a joke? You of all people wish someone would have the integrity to cede a point? I laughed.

The issue with companions is that it's a mechanic not a commander. Commanders fall out of favor but mechanics get constantly repeated and revisited.

Wizards will print a new commander that revives interest periodically and then they'll revisit the mechanic.

It is not hard to imagine a world where there's a large set of companions and many decks have them. That world is gross.
I try to admit my mistakes when I make them - I've done so numerous times on this forum. If you've never seen me do it, then maybe you're not as convincing as you think you are.

Does companion open some scary doors? Yes, absolutely - but so does commander as a concept, and we've all learned to live with that. Jegantha, as I've said, is potentially problematic. The rest all seem to me to be, at their most powerful, an interesting alternative build, and at worst a funny jank build for fun.

If they print easy-include companions with overpowered abilities, I'll be the first guy in the firing squad. But so far these mostly look like a good time. Any mechanic can be broken if wotc wills it. No sense getting all worked up over something that hasn't happened.

And for the record - I think the bigger sin would be easy inclusion compared to overpoweredness. If, say, Zirda Kenny ends up being the strongest build of Kenny, then that's okay by me, so long as it's markedly different from non-Zirda builds.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago

I try to admit my mistakes when I make them - I've done so numerous times on this forum. If you've never seen me do it, then maybe you're not as convincing as you think you are.

Does companion open some scary doors? Yes, absolutely - but so does commander as a concept, and we've all learned to live with that. Jegantha, as I've said, is potentially problematic. The rest all seem to me to be, at their most powerful, an interesting alternative build, and at worst a funny jank build for fun.

If they print easy-include companions with overpowered abilities, I'll be the first guy in the firing squad. But so far these mostly look like a good time. Any mechanic can be broken if wotc wills it. No sense getting all worked up over something that hasn't happened.

And for the record - I think the bigger sin would be easy inclusion compared to overpoweredness. If, say, Zirda Kenny ends up being the strongest build of Kenny, then that's okay by me, so long as it's markedly different from non-Zirda builds.
I have seen you admit factual errors but never change your mind that I can recall, except in response to your own arguments :)

I agree with you that the ease of inclusion is a bigger sin than power level, but being high synergy is subtly different than power level in my mind; consistent availability of synergy pieces defeats a lot of the design space of commander. The combination of those two factors -- ease of inclusion and high synergy -- are my main issues with this mechanic.

I also do think it's worth getting bent out of shape; if we all throw a fit about Jegantha's ridiculously low bar for entry maybe it'll keep them from doing it again :P

Zirda is obviously less bad than Jegantha, but also far more likely to get worse in the future; they've gone absolutely activated ability crazy recently. There'll probably be new Zirda generals every year forever now.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago

I do wish you'd at least have the integrity to admit when you're wrong. Zirda is totally fine with the slivers. But I guess we can just forget you brought it up. :unamused:

Snips

If it's really that repetitive and powerful, it'll eventually fall out of favor, just like Zur isn't particularly popular anymore. It's not going to ruin the format.
Is that first part a joke? You of all people wish someone would have the integrity to cede a point? I laughed.
Tbf, I have seen Dirk cede a point on many occasions (to me, even :P ), and we're about the furthest apart on the spectrum ever.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Tbf, I have seen Dirk cede a point on many occasions (to me, even :P ), and we're about the furthest apart on the spectrum ever.
And here I cede one to you to, I'll believe an unbiased third party, if you're really sure he changed his mind I'll believe you.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Tbf, I have seen Dirk cede a point on many occasions (to me, even :P ), and we're about the furthest apart on the spectrum ever.
And here I cede one to you to, I'll believe an unbiased third party, if you're really sure he changed his mind I'll believe you.
It's certainly not often, haha. But I chalk it up to two people with wildly different opinions on ... well, anything tbh. Nature of the beast. I think that's why the spirited debates are in good faith discussion and have never really devolved into flame wars.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
It's certainly not often, haha. But I chalk it up to two people with wildly different opinions on ... well, anything tbh. Nature of the beast. I think that's why the spirited debates are in good faith discussion and have never really devolved into flame wars.
Thanks 3drinks :) I will certainly confess to being somewhat bullheaded. But I don't think there are many people on this forum who change their minds easily tbh.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I have seen you admit factual errors but never change your mind that I can recall, except in response to your own arguments :)
That is rarer but it does happen. If it's "in response to my own arguments" it's probably just my way of thinking though things others have said.

That said, your mention of Zirda being overly powerful with slivers borders on factual error. Seems trivial to admit it, but you instead preferred to clip it, along with anything else you presumably don't have a good response to. It's fairly frustrating. I can't tell if you're ceding the point or just refusing to argue it.
I agree with you that the ease of inclusion is a bigger sin than power level, but being high synergy is subtly different than power level in my mind; consistent availability of synergy pieces defeats a lot of the design space of commander. The combination of those two factors -- ease of inclusion and high synergy -- are my main issues with this mechanic.
Well, I guess it's just a matter of opinion, but so long as the deck looks drastically different I'm ok with it. Imagine, say, a companion that draws cards when you gain life, but you can't play any instants or sorceries - that'd be very powerful with Oloro, but it'd probably look like a completely different deck since you wouldn't be able to play the same sort of typical Oloro control shell.

Looking at obosh for my Kaervek, it's going to shift the ramp so that I'm much slower to play Kaervek, but Obosh gives me really powerful synergy while he's in play. A more subtle change, since nothing critical to the identity of the deck was even, but it will make the deck play in a very different way and I'm excited to try it out.
I also do think it's worth getting bent out of shape; if we all throw a fit about Jegantha's ridiculously low bar for entry maybe it'll keep them from doing it again :P
I find WotC's general support for 5c to be annoying. So many of the most cancerous commanders in recent sets are 5c. I remember when you only had a handful of choices if you wanted to do 5c and most of them were crap, which was good because 5c is inherently more powerful. Now they're plentiful and powerful. Blech. They didn't need Jegantha to make them better.
Zirda is obviously less bad than Jegantha, but also far more likely to get worse in the future; they've gone absolutely activated ability crazy recently. There'll probably be new Zirda generals every year forever now.
Well, so long as the decks look very different from non-Zirda versions I'd consider that a success. But that's just my opinion of what I want to see from the mechanic.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
That said, your mention of Zirda being overly powerful with slivers borders on factual error. Seems trivial to admit it, but you instead preferred to clip it, along with anything else you presumably don't have a good response to. It's fairly frustrating. I can't tell if you're ceding the point or just refusing to argue it.
Find where I said Zirda was overly powerful with slivers, as opposed to where you inferred it. I'll wait.

Hint: the only mention of slivers was where I said you'd be seeing clever casual brews of them that are hyper-consistent because of Zirda. And it was kind of an afterthought in a list of the commanders that can be used with Zirda. No mention of power level, in fact it was specifically while talking about how this consistency is even annoying in jank decks because of how it raises the baseline.

re: The rest of that

We can just differ in opinion. I think adding versions of Kenrith that get to use his abilities at a discount all the time is bad. Why do that? It's a net bad for the format to have more commanders be Zur-like. It being different doesn't really matter in my calculus - it's now a standard design of Kenrith as if he had "Partner with Zirda if you jump through these hoops."

Philosophically I hate the mechanic for what it does to decks. The format would might be better off if every general who tutored for something was banned imho :P RIP golos.
Last edited by pokken 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Find where I said Zirda was overly powerful with slivers, as opposed to where you inferred it. I'll wait.
Ok.
I can think of probably 10 different builds of Zirda that are really casual, but ruin the hell out of casual by being super consistent.

We are gonna be seeing [...] zirda sliver queen and zirda sliver overlord all over the casual circuit with people's clever casual brews.
"ruining the hell out of casual" sure sounds like a statement about power to me..

If you think merely being consistent is enough to ruin casual, then again - Sisay. Zirilan. Lin Sivvi. Arcum. Tazri. Godo. Momir. Vannifar. Sidisi. Overlord. Zur. These are all WAY more consistent at setting up synergies than having a single synergy piece of dubious strength in the companion zone. Some are in the cEDH realm, but not all of them. Anybody fretting over how consistently Lin Sivvi plays out? No, because consistency without power isn't a problem, it doesn't raise the baseline meaningfully, and certainly doesn't "ruin casual". Commanders like Golos (even if he's just tutoring fixing - which tbh he usually is when I see people playing him, because people are idiots) do a whole lot more to raise the baseline than Zirda likely ever will, because they can be built by scrubs and still be a huge threat. And FFS, you were the one advocating tutors in the other thread (which I agree with you about, btw). Why are you so anti consistency all of a sudden?

Honestly I have no idea how a sliver overlord Zirda build would be more consistent than a non-Zirda overlord build anyway, even if you want to claim that consistency is the only thing you were talking about. Same for queen, for that matter. But by all means, keep trying to weasel out of admitting any mistake.
We can just differ in opinion. I think adding versions of Kenrith that get to use his abilities at a discount all the time is bad. Why do that?
I guess it's just a matter of opinion, but I don't see any problem so long as what you lose is roughly equivalent to what you get. Anyway, it's certainly not "all the time". Just one exiling/tucking/neutralizing/controlling spell and he's gimped his whole deck for no benefit. Plus he still needs to cast it, if nothing else.

Everything has tradeoffs in magic. I don't see why this is different.
It's a net bad for the format to have more commanders be Zur-like.
How do you mean "Zur-like"?
Philosophically I hate the mechanic for what it does to decks. The format would be better off if every general who tutored for something was banned imho :P RIP golos.
Don't you dare touch my Zirilan.

But seriously, how are you anti consistency but also feel (which again, let me emphasize that I agree with this point you made):
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
However, the thing people always forget about when banning tutors is that it sort of enforces a goodstuff format where your individual card quality has to be much higher. It's hard to support jank without ways to find the cogs and pulleys.
Companions generally increase consistency, true, but much like tutors that consistency can be used for good or ill. People will get tired of jegantha Najeela just like they got tired of Zur Necro. The fever just has to burn its way out first.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Ruining casual also != being overpowered.

The potentially overpowered builds are varieties of Kenrith, Golos, and Zacama specifically -- I'm sure there are a couple I missed.

That said, I do think the Sliver overlord tutor for ameoboid changeling/wings/blades of velis vel casual deck is not going to be any fun at all.

----------------------------------------------------------

Tutors go *in your deck*. You have to draw them randomly and play critical mass of them, and they cost cards and tempo just to find the card.

The difference between always having a specific card available, and having it available when you randomly draw a tutor you jammed 8 in your deck for is significant. We disagree about how big of a sacrifice Zirda's constraint is, and that's the main rebuttal to this so probably wasted breath.

To an extent, re: consistency, I really empathize with using a tutor general to do something quirky, e.g. my Golos land-as-hidden-commander decks. I wouldn't necessarily ban them all I guess but I do think it's likely the format is healthier without them. And certainly adding more of this effect of constant access to synergy piece is bleh.

(The reason to bring those guys up is 1) you brought up Zur, and 2) it's a good connection -- going *further* than these generals that have already proven problematic is my concern. Why one-up Zur? :P)

I think you're probably right that these particular iterations of them will blow over eventually - but it's going to be a recurring theme every time a new toy comes out.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... xian-mana/

Fairly relevant article about companions' impact on other eternal formats. Oddly despite him saying they are fine in commander many of his criticisms apply to commander too.

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Post by Pip_Maxwell » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... xian-mana/

Fairly relevant article about companions' impact on other eternal formats. Oddly despite him saying they are fine in commander many of his criticisms apply to commander too.
And the weirdest thing is that article came out on the same day as Jegantha, the Wellspring was revealed. Which is a companion that actually has power behind it in five color decks.

And the sentiment that "First, Commander is explicitly a social format held together by various unwritten social contracts." doesn't hold up to cards that use the FIRE philosophy. If we ignore this type of design philosophy that was adopted in War of the Spark and done for every product since, we are going to end up in the boiling frog situation.

"The boiling frog is a fable describing a frog being slowly boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out, but if the frog is put in tepid water which is then brought to a boil slowly, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death."

This will happen to every format, not just those outside of EDH, as the format is just an extension of normal magic with a few exceptions. An always available card in the form of a creature or planeswalker, every card except those with relentless are restricted, the deck size is 100, the life is 40, with a 21 threshold like poison for a game loss-state.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

Regarding them being similar to tutors, they are so in effect, but not so visually. Casual EDH is a system of heuristics, not of hard rulings, so how something looks is important. I've seen groups that ban tutors, but let Golos pass early on, because "he only gets a land, that's more like Kodama's Reach than Demonic Tutor". Companions don't even have the word "search". The drastically improve consistency, without any of the hallmarks that tell less theoretically-minded playgroups that they pose a similar threat.

They are also the sort of cards that warp a deck around themselves, without the player being consciously aware. To give an example, when I was first getting into Commander, I made a Jarad graveyard-matters-deck, and at some point threw in Necrotic Ooze. It was on-theme, it was quirky, I'd had a copy laying around. Then, once I had Necrotic Ooze, I was incentivized to pick up Phyrexian Devourer, as a way to break through stalled-out pillowfort games. Then Triskelion went in, and as I was piloting it, I realized I had stopped caring much about winning through combat (most of my creatures were garbagey Llurghoyfs), and was regularly racing to set up the same combos. Without setting out to do so, I'd ended up creating a nuisance of a deck, which I quickly broke apart. These point in a similar direction. People will toss Zirda into Tajic or whatever, and as they're modifying their deck, might throw in a Basalt Monolith or something. They are insidious in the same way Leovold was; people will pick them up not intending to make something degenerate, and their tables will suffer.

Lastly, as they pose deckbuilding restrictions, and are all to some extent build-around pieces, they cannot be removed lightly. For those without a set playgroup, rule 0 bans often work by asking people to just take the problem card out of their decks and replace it with something less objectionable. The singleton nature of the format means this doesn't impede the decks that much, and so it is relatively easy to agree on. Companions, however, cannot be so easily replaced, given the pressures they put on deckbuilding, so I see rule 0 bans being more contested and messier, than for other problem cards.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Ruining casual also != being overpowered.
Ok, so explain to me why you think sliver queen + Zirda is going to ruin casual please.

I'd say "ruining casual" is generally related to being overpowered. But within the sphere of casual instead of the sphere of competitive. I.e. maelstrom wanderer can really jack up a casual game but it's fine in competitive. It's not "overpowered" in the sense that it's nowhere near the most powerful thing you can do. But it's totally overpowered in casual games, simply because it's hard to build a tame maelstrom wanderer deck even for casual.

I don't see Kenny doing that with Zirda although it's a possibility. Slivers though...........lolno.
The potentially overpowered builds are varieties of Kenrith, Golos, and Zacama specifically -- I'm sure there are a couple I missed.
Potentially? Sure. But honestly there's so many overpowered commanders already, do a few more really matter, even if they are? And Golos and Zacama lack easy ways to recur/protect Zirda so it's easy to deprive them of their advantage.
That said, I do think the Sliver overlord tutor for ameoboid changeling/wings/blades of velis vel casual deck is not going to be any fun at all.
lolwut. That synergy already exists, and has existed for ages. Zirda hardly makes it better at all (almost no difference except maybe with blades), and you give up essentially every single sliver for that minor improvement. If sliver overlord theft was going to ruin casual I'm pretty sure it would have done it in 2007.
Tutors go *in your deck*. You have to draw them randomly and play critical mass of them, and they cost cards and tempo just to find the card.
Building Kenny around training grounds (not sure how you'd do that but w/e) requires deckbuilding a critical mass of tutors, sure. Building Kenny around Zirda requires a different deckbuilding constraint. I don't see why one is intrinsically worse than the other. If you think the Zirda requirement is very lax then I could see you thinking that it results in a stronger deck than the tutor one, then I suppose that's an opinion you can have (though I think including a bunch of tutors rarely makes a deck weaker, personally). Looking down the edhrec list of kenrith cards, though, he loses quite a lot to play Zirda.
The difference between always having a specific card available, and having it available when you randomly draw a tutor you jammed 8 in your deck for is significant.
True, although you can easily go beyond 8 good tutors in 5c. That said, besides me seeing the constraint as significant, I also don't see the advantage Zirda gives as being so great.
To an extent, re: consistency, I really empathize with using a tutor general to do something quirky, e.g. my Golos land-as-hidden-commander decks. I wouldn't necessarily ban them all I guess but I do think it's likely the format is healthier without them. And certainly adding more of this effect of constant access to synergy piece is bleh.
But it's access to only one specific synergy piece. Compare to, say, sisay which enables you to put together nasty combos like hokori + cradle or whatever.

Ofc there could be future commanders that break Zirda, but none that exist currently make me worry too much. I think Kenny is the best and he's still probably fine.

Jegantha I do worry more about, as mentioned.
(The reason to bring those guys up is 1) you brought up Zur, and 2) it's a good connection -- going *further* than these generals that have already proven problematic is my concern. Why one-up Zur? :P)
Ok but again how are companions zur-like? In what way is Zirda one-upping Zur?
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... xian-mana/

Fairly relevant article about companions' impact on other eternal formats. Oddly despite him saying they are fine in commander many of his criticisms apply to commander too.
Oh, I totally could see this being a huge mistake for legacy/vintage. I read the article and I agree with pretty much all of it (although I think he dismisses the more casual side of standard, which is where I think these ideally end up - I might try brewing with them myself).

I don't think anything he says applies to commander, at all. The constraints are much harder for us in most cases, and we aren't building to win - so if something ends up being problematic then we can rely on the social contract to pressure them out, where that doesn't exist in competitive formats. Plus, while they will likely have much more homogenized decklists (i.e. Zirda Kenny decks will look more similar to each other than non-Zirda Kenny decks look to each other), there are so many cards available it hardly matters. And they may well push people towards less common cards, which is good imo.

The "unwelcome guests" part applies to, I suppose, cat tribal and dino tribal, but I think most people playing those decks are probably happy about it (could be wrong ofc). And I don't think cat tribal is the new meta, nor Kaheera a dangerous problem. Honestly she's weak enough that probably even those decks are better off without her.

Another difference between legacy and commander - in legacy, having an extra vanilla beater is a big deal, because they're usually trading 1:1 and a 2/2 does represent a threat, even if it's a small one. Many a game has been won by a snapcaster beatdown. Whereas in commander...yeah not really quite so much. And a single card matters little over the course of a long game. So you probably want some major mileage out of your companion to justify running them.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Ok, so explain to me why you think sliver queen + Zirda is going to ruin casual please.

I'd say "ruining casual" is generally related to being overpowered. But within the sphere of casual instead of the sphere of competitive. I.e. maelstrom wanderer can really jack up a casual game but it's fine in competitive. It's not "overpowered" in the sense that it's nowhere near the most powerful thing you can do.
I'll try to explain this one but ruining casual games is a pretty deep thing that only partially connects to power level -- it's also about the style of the game and patterns of play and what questions you ask when and how you ask them. So it's hard to explain my thoughts on it super clearly, especially because they won't stand up well to reductivist inquiry.

There's this particular nuance that I think sliver edit overlord in particular will run up against, which is that it will be at the power level to play in, say, 4-5/10 games, but when it is in 4-5/10 games it will %$#% them up with its play patterns of "I can 100% of the time do this fairly powerful thing and you had better have removal."

Maelstrom wanderer is actually a really good example of a card with similar play pattern problems although not nearly to the same degree of consistency at lower power levels.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Potentially? Sure. But honestly there's so many overpowered commanders already, do a few more really matter, even if they are? And Golos and Zacama lack easy ways to recur/protect Zirda so it's easy to deprive them of their advantage.
My opinion is that yes it is a problem. With such luminaries as Rofellos, Braids, Griselbrand, Leovold, Erayo there's reason to think that some things are off limits from a general perspective.

Zacama has a billion easy ways to recur protect zirda, I'll get my lolwhut in first I guess -- do you need a list of green and/or white cards zacama can play to recur zirda or protect it? The list is like..20 cards long of playable stuff.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
lolwut. That synergy already exists, and has existed for ages. Zirda hardly makes it better at all (almost no difference except maybe with blades), and you give up essentially every single sliver for that minor improvement. If sliver overlord theft was going to ruin casual I'm pretty sure it would have done it in 2007.
It may come as a surprise to you, but 1 is less than 3 by a significant amount in commander.

If your deck can reliably spend 13 mana to steal the best 2 creatures on the board then a further 4 to steal the next creature, then 4 more to threaten to do it every single time you untap...bluck.

Yeah I agree repeated tutors in the command zone are tiresome. Let's stop replicating that failed paradigm with new stupid mechanics that bring the same stupid feel to other commanders.

Please for the love of god do not interpret this as me saying this is a high powered strategy. It's just unpleasantly consistent.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Building Kenny around training grounds (not sure how you'd do that but w/e) requires deckbuilding a critical mass of tutors, sure. Building Kenny around Zirda requires a different deckbuilding constraint. I don't see why one is intrinsically worse than the other. If you think the Zirda requirement is very lax then I could see you thinking that it results in a stronger deck than the tutor one, then I suppose that's an opinion you can have (though I think including a bunch of tutors rarely makes a deck weaker, personally). Looking down the edhrec list of kenrith cards, though, he loses quite a lot to play Zirda.
Worse or better is really just such a weird yardstick again. We're talking extreme consistency here. The Zirda-Kenrith deck is *absolutely* capable of a 9.5/10 build and can live anywhere on the spectrum though I think you would have to try to make it worse than medium power level. 100 lands, zirda and kenrith would beat probably half the decks on EDHrec more often than not.

But like I said, we're talking consistency. The tutors are all legal in Zirda, excepting spellseeker and maybe recruiters. You get all the tutors AND a synergy piece ready to hand. And then your response to that will be to say "Well but then you're talking CEDH and so your argument is irrelevant." It's like we're going in circles here :P

What I'm telling you is the Zirda-Kenrith deck is abominably consistent and sure, other commanders have consistent builds. But these builds are almost invariably at the upper end of the power level spectrum.

Zirda-Kenrith will be stupidly consistent at any level of its power and you almost can't make it bad.

And I think that is a problem. I struggle to illustrate the way it just feels different to me than Zurcropotence -- but I guess it's that I don't think people will react to it the same way as Zur because the power level is not absurd in the same ways. It's deceptive. People are going to be playing this crap for years before they wear it out if they ever do.

I think it's far more likely it becomes acceptable but tedious -- more like Golos than Animar.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
But it's access to only one specific synergy piece. Compare to, say, sisay which enables you to put together nasty combos like hokori + cradle or whatever.

Ofc there could be future commanders that break Zirda, but none that exist currently make me worry too much. I think Kenny is the best and he's still probably fine.
I think the comparison to broken tutor generals, as I've said, has some validity. But I think that illustrates some of the problem I'm having just by the fact that almost everyone hates those guys.

The amount of ire Zur *still* raises any time I see someone trot it out and then immediately have to make excuses for why it's not that busted is perhaps suggestive that we should be very cautious.

Both Sisays, Zur, Arcum, Golos, even Momir Vig, are mostly horrible. Why do we want more of that?

I do think there're a lot of differences in the two synergistic cards vs. one that can tutor for others, but it's a decent comparison regardless. Ways it's different:

* You have to do something or pay something to tutor with almost every tutor commander. Golos' etb tapped clause is very meaningful.
* They tend to have even more narrow deckbuilding constraints than zirda (e.g. arcum requiring an artifact creature means a lot of things you have to do)
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote: And Golos and Zacama lack easy ways to recur/protect Zirda so it's easy to deprive them of their advantage.
list of zacama cards to protect / recur zirda :P
most of them even playable and without but 2 minutes looking. You could easily assemble a protection suite of playable cards.

Don't even get me started on Golos who can tutor for volrath's stronghold at will. Not a very good argument. Hell you can even get safe haven if you wanna be cute.

Just lands that Golos can get :P

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
There's this particular nuance that I think sliver queen in particular will run up against, which is that it will be at the power level to play in, say, 4-5/10 games, but when it is in 4-5/10 games it will %$#% them up with its play patterns of "I can 100% of the time do this fairly powerful thing and you had better have removal."
The only thing it can do 100% of the time is make 1/1s for 1. Anything beyond that - skullclamp, cathar's crusade (wait that doesn't work), coat of arms (wait that doesn't work), mana echoes (wait that doesn't work), craterhoof (wait that doesn't work)....ok I guess overwhelming stampede? - is still going to be a matter of chance. And if all someone's deck does is make 1/1s for 1, that's really not very powerful imo. Plus at a really low power level (1) sliver queen doesn't exist because she's expensive and (2) her manabase is jank so she's not reliable anyway.

I mean sure, in theoretical universe where all variance is removed from commander because all decks are 50 companions and nothing but fixing lands in the 99, it could become the sort of game where the better deck/player wins 100%. But that's like...so, so far away from what this is, and you're really reaching to imply that it's anything close.
My opinion is that yes it is a problem. With such luminaries as Rofellos, Braids, Griselbrand, Leovold, Erayo there's reason to think that some things are off limits from a general perspective.
Personally I doubt any of the 4-5 players were ever looking at braids, leovold, or erayo. Rofellos is probably the commander that's most desirable + overpowered in a 4-5 meta, and probably a big part of why he's on there, since he's essentially a 2-mana mana doubler. Colossal dreadmaw turn 3, everybody freak out!

All of those commanders do something really powerful really quickly, though. Rofellos powers out things way ahead of curve (plus goes infinite fairly easily but that may not matter to the RC at this point). Braids can start locking down the game on turn 2-3. Gbrand...well, I think he's banned more from the 99 than the CZ tbh, but to compare his draw efficiency to anything Kenny can do, without or without Zirda, is a joke. Leovold also locks people out of their hands very early, turn 3-4 generally. Erayo locks down the game turn 2-4.

I really don't see how any of these are remotely comparable to Kenny. They aren't banned for "consistency", all of them need to draw other cards to do much of anything. They're banned because they create degenerate game states very quickly. Zirda may do that in the future, but right now I'm not seeing it.
Zacama has a billion easy ways to recur protect zirda, I'll get my lolwhut in first I guess -- do you need a list of green and/or white cards zacama can play to recur zirda or protect it? The list is like..20 cards long of playable stuff.
But you have to draw those. So it's not reliable, by your own standards.

Also, like, half the commonly-played removal is exile removal anyway.

If you want to dedicate a million slots to protect a card so you can get a 30% discount on golos, be my guest, I guess. Hardly seems like the thing that broke Golos to me.
It may come as a surprise to you, but 1 is less than 3 by a significant amount in commander.
How...how are you still arguing this point? Honestly... Do you honestly think this is a good argument? Sliver overlord being able to pay 1 to tutor up random garbage changelings, or a couple one-shot commander-dependent theft effects? You think that's scarier than being able to pay 3 to tutor up any sliver in the game?

Oh, but yeah, 3>1. That's the OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNLLLLLYYYYY thing that matters. I'm so bad at math, how could I forget. :unamused:
100 lands, zirda and kenrith would beat probably half the decks on EDHrec more often than not.
If that's what you genuinely believe then I can see why you feel how you do.

That said I think you're comically wrong. I doubt there's even a precon that would struggle against that deck.
But like I said, we're talking consistency. The tutors are all legal in Zirda, excepting spellseeker and maybe recruiters. You get all the tutors AND a synergy piece ready to hand. And then your response to that will be to say "Well but then you're talking CEDH and so your argument is irrelevant." It's like we're going in circles here :P
No, I think tutors can be played outside of cEDH, obviously. I've said I'm very pro tutors. It's just a matter of what you're searching for.

The more consistent a deck is, the less flexible it is in terms of where it's appropriate (generally). A Zirda + Kenny deck that's too powerful for a meta is probably going to be less fun in that meta than a deck with more variance in its play patterns - especially if they're running a lot of tutors, since those also reduce variance. So it's true that, for someone playing Kenny + Zirda, they may want to be more vigilant than most about abiding by the power level of their meta.

...But the same is true for the tutor commanders except much, much moreso.

And honestly, while it's true, I don't think it's a huge factor. It would be in 1v1, but in multiplayer there's always that balancing element if someone is consistently overpowering their group, so long as they aren't wildly above them in power level.

I think politically the companions will actually be kind of a disaster. People tend to worry a lot more about the threat they can see coming, and don't take into account that which they don't see - which for most companions will be a much weaker deck.
What I'm telling you is the Zirda-Kenrith deck is abominably consistent and sure, other commanders have consistent builds. But these builds are almost invariably at the upper end of the power level spectrum.
And....that won't be true in this case because....?
Zirda-Kenrith will be stupidly consistent at any level of its power and you almost can't make it bad.
I'd say that's true of Kenrith without Zirda too. I set out trying to make a pretty limited Kenny deck and it still overpowered the games I played it in. That was mostly using triggered abilities though.

Some commanders just have high floors.
And I think that is a problem. I struggle to illustrate the way it just feels different to me than Zurcropotence -- but I guess it's that I don't think people will react to it the same way as Zur because the power level is not absurd in the same ways. It's deceptive. People are going to be playing this crap for years before they wear it out if they ever do.

I think it's far more likely it becomes acceptable but tedious -- more like Golos than Animar.
Possibly, but I still see that as fundamentally more of a problem with Kenny than Zirda. Kenny is plenty strong without him.

Mostly it seems like the line is "broken but not TOO broken". The line of what level of power is acceptable has been slowly creeping forward since the format began, with WotC doing the pushing.

I'd still rather see Kenny + Zirda on the other side of the table than Golos + nothing though. If companions push the power level of the game further than normal commanders then I can see that being a problem, but I don't see any reason why they'd be treated differently than anything else, nor evidence that they're more powerful than what's already easily available.

As and I said, politically I think they're kind of a disaster. If someone sits down with Kenny + Zirda everybody already knows what he's planning to do, more or less. Playing with your hand open is a huge political disadvantage - take it from a Phelddagrif player.
Both Sisays, Zur, Arcum, Golos, even Momir Vig, are mostly horrible. Why do we want more of that?
Sure, but while they're similar in certain ways I think the difference of degrees is crucial. Tutoring up any card, even with restrictions, leaves open incredible potential for brokenness. What Zirda does to Kenny...well, it's good, no doubt, but broken? Imo that's a firm no.
I do think there're a lot of differences in the two synergistic cards vs. one that can tutor for others, but it's a decent comparison regardless. Ways it's different:

* You have to do something or pay something to tutor with almost every tutor commander. Golos' etb tapped clause is very meaningful.
* They tend to have even more narrow deckbuilding constraints than zirda (e.g. arcum requiring an artifact creature means a lot of things you have to do)
* #1 is only kind of true. Sisay 1.0 costs tapping, once. Zirilan costs 3 and a tap but puts it into play with haste (and ofc a downside). Golos costs...entering tapped? How are you figuring that as a cost? It's ramping you, you probably already played a land that turn so you couldn't put it into play if it tutored to hand, plus no companions are lands anyway...this is a stupid comparison. Lin Sivvi costs essentially nothing beyond tapping. Vannifar costs extra-nothing. Momir requires casting a creature but you were doing that anyway, and then it keeps doing it on its own. Arcum you have setup but it puts it into PLAY, which is so much more powerful than having the extra card in hand. Same for Zur, minus the setup. Sisay 2.0 is expensive initially but can be a huge discount later. This is apples to oranges at best.
* #2 is only true for some of them - sisay 1,0 doesn't, Zirilan doesn't, Lin Sivvi doesn't, Golos doesn't, Zur doesn't, Overlord doesn't, Vannifar I would argue doesn't, Momir I would argue doesn't, Sidisi sure as %$#% doesn't...Ok so you've got arcum and maybe Sisay 2.0, kind of. Excellent point :crazy:
* all of the tutor commanders are repeatable, either by blinking/replaying them or with their own repeatable activated ability.
* all of the tutor commanders give you a wide range of targets while Zirda is just...Zirda.

So we've got 2 ways where *some* tutor commanders as weaker, and two HUGE ways in which they're much, much stronger.

I bring up the tutor commanders because they're soooo far beyond the consistency that Zirda grants. Are they annoying? Most of them, yeah, but we put up with them and they haven't destroyed the game to my knowledge. Can't see Zirda doing it if Sisay used to be one of the most popular commanders in the game.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Apologies I typod overlord and queen there.

Dude I'm sorry but the way you argue is just so tedious. Zacama and zirda aren't good because she can't consistently protect it but...what even are you saying. Everyone has to draw their random removal. The game is random.

Its not good because it does to doom blade and not good because it can't protect itself from doom blade as consistently as it does its thing..

I'll play kenny/zirda/100lands against a precon any day of the week :P

I need to take a break from you, sorry.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I need to take a break from you, sorry.
Yeah...I always argue past the point at which it's enjoyable, and it invariably ends up taking up a lot of my time and then I later regret it.

Let's maybe try to wrap this up with some compromises?
Apologies I typod overlord and queen there.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I initially thought it seemed busted with slivers when I first glanced over the 5c commanders too. An easy mistake to make.
Zacama and zirda aren't good because she can't consistently protect it but...what even are you saying. Everyone has to draw their random removal. The game is random.
Zacama is definitely strong. I could definitely see it causing some troubles at casual tables, that is fair. I do think, though, that because it's fully in the CZ, that if people find it's too strong for their meta it'll be doubly subject to getting hated out by the social contract.

Honestly, especially with all the hubbub around the mechanic and the face-up nature of it, I suspect I'll have a hard time getting it to work. Like in the Zacama example, everyone sees what you're doing, they'll be looking for an answer before the game even starts. Meanwhile the guy with the combo in hand is protected from scrutiny.

And if I actually win (most likely with Kaervek + Obosh), people will be saying "psshh, you only won because companion is broken and needs to be banned" even if I would likely have won more easily without the companion and its restrictions, just because the companion is very visible while the restriction is less visible.

But that's just my guess on how it will go down, it's fine if you don't think that'll be the case.
Its not good because it does to doom blade and not good because it can't protect itself from doom blade as consistently as it does its thing..
My apologies, it's definitely good. Didn't mean to say it isn't.

As a frequent caster of doom blades (or more commonly, much better removal) I'm looking forward to playing against companion decks, though. Deep knowledge of their deck and a significant weakening of it, in exchange for one removal spell? Sign me up.
I'll play kenny/zirda/100lands against a precon any day of the week :P
If we can take ego out if it, that might actually be an interesting experiment. Are we talking any lands, fixing-only, or strictly basics? I've won games with my 98 lands partner deck, so I'm sure it can be done :P that was with many utility lands, though, ofc.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

I will say that apparently companion is actually a serious problem across formats, including limited play.

Listen as commander players, we know how strong it is having access to a card at any time during the game. Commander is inherently a broken format because of it.

Now what is happening is that all formats are having access to this same broken mechanic. The "restrictions" are not being very restrictive, just because already established decks have to make little to no changes.

So apparently tournaments are already being dominated by companion and we are only like a week into it. Like 6 of the Top 8 decks for a Modern tournament were companion based.
The non-companion decks just couldn't consistently compete with that extra card.

There is a real possibility that companion is changed somewhat to how it works in the future. After all the words of how companion works are not written on the cards, and rules can be changed. Sure it has the restrictions written on the cards, but how you have access to it might change.

Is companion too good for commander? No. But it also is a little unfair. But partner is unfair as well, so we are not experiencing anything new.



I've been playing Zirda with Kenrith at the helm, and the main thing you have to watch out for is exile effects on Zirda, as Kenrith can get it back from the graveyard, but gone forever in exile.

I was thinking with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim that Phyrexian Tower can be your first option as this has a way of protecting Zirda against Swords to Plowshares type cards.
Then Volrath's Stronghold can be used to get it back from the graveyard if its just destroys removal, or you've had to sacrifice it.

This is slower than Kenrith ability to get it back from graveyard, as I just won my last game, because opponent had to counter Zirda, and next turn I just got it back with Kenrith ability to win with Grim Monolith and Walking Ballista.
Where as you'd need to kill Golos, Tireless Pilgrim with the Phyrexian Tower and cast again to get Volrath's Stronghold.
Anyway food for thought there is definitely a robust Golos/Zirda deck to be had for sure. I'll probably start brewing as usually to see where it heads.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I will say that apparently companion is actually a serious problem across formats, including limited play.
Interestingly, not the ones that are most dangerous for commander though. Lurrus is an enormous hoop to jump through (working on an Ayli list at the moment - it seems really cool but definitely won't be overpowered by any stretch). Yorion and Lutri don't work, obviously. And I doubt Gyruda will be that great, but maybe he could be good idk. Definitely not my cup of tea, personally.

Lurrus does seem like a staggering oversight from wotc. That said it looks really cool in commander so......sorry, other formats?

Meanwhile I don't think Jegantha has had any major impact on other formats afaik, and that's easily the strongest for commander I think. Zirda also afaik is not being used in other formats, which would probably be the second most powerful here.

I'm curious how it's a huge problem for limited play - I've only done a couple arena drafts and a sealed, but it hasn't come up at all for me yet.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I will say that apparently companion is actually a serious problem across formats, including limited play.
Interestingly, not the ones that are most dangerous for commander though. Lurrus is an enormous hoop to jump through (working on an Ayli list at the moment - it seems really cool but definitely won't be overpowered by any stretch). Yorion and Lutri don't work, obviously. And I doubt Gyruda will be that great, but maybe he could be good idk. Definitely not my cup of tea, personally.

Lurrus does seem like a staggering oversight from wotc. That said it looks really cool in commander so......sorry, other formats?

Meanwhile I don't think Jegantha has had any major impact on other formats afaik, and that's easily the strongest for commander I think. Zirda also afaik is not being used in other formats, which would probably be the second most powerful here.

I'm curious how it's a huge problem for limited play - I've only done a couple arena drafts and a sealed, but it hasn't come up at all for me yet.
Yeah the fact that your commander is part of the deck, actually has the added...I'm going to say benefit of restricting what you can do with these companions.
But in other formats, you don't have to worry about colors or what commanders are available.

Apparently Jegantha can slip into most Tron decks, so I don't know how much of an impact that has, but often Tron just has massive amounts of mana and no threats. Now Jegantha presents a 5/5 beater.

I mean think about decks like Jund that try and deal with one for one removal and quite often hand disruption. With companion it stays protected until you are ready.
Its actually a huge problem to Magic as an entire meta. Commander came off the least effected. Even Vintage can probably just have Lurrus of the Dream Den or Jegantha, the Wellspring hanging out with no restrictions to card selection.

Anyway basically other formats have been turned into commander. I don't feel special anymore lol.

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Zirda also afaik is not being used in other formats, which would probably be the second most powerful here.
Zirda is being used in Legacy along with Gyruda and Lurrus (not the same decks, obvs). I don't know that it's broken Legacy yet, but due to the nature of the card, it will also take the longest for people to figure out how to properly break it. That said, some of the lists brewed around it seem fairly strong.

Edit: The legacy list is called Zirda Bomberman for anyone who was curious to look in to it. It's been doing well at what few tournaments have currently been ongoing.

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BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I do wish you'd at least have the integrity to admit when you're wrong. Zirda is totally fine with the slivers. But I guess we can just forget you brought it up. :unamused:

There are lots of commanders that are consistent. Hell, I've been working on my Zirilan of the Claw deck recently, which is far more consistent than Kenny is ever going to be and literally nobody criticizes. It literally gives you a tutor in the command zone. I could draw nothing but mountains and still easily kill someone on turn 7, and the whole table through blockers if I get one of many synergy pieces, and on turn 4-5 if I get good ramp. And there are other (probably more powerful) tutor commanders as well. Sisay 1.0 doesn't need a companion, she's got every Selesnya legendary permanent as her "companion" with a single tap. But because those work inside the "normal rules of the game", and because they've been around long enough that people are used to them, they don't get criticized. Because the only way to solve that problem is with many sloppy bans. So instead the cool new mechanic gets criticized because it's new and thus subject to more scrutiny.
You yourself agreed in another thread, Dirk, that heuristics matter more than actual powerlevel or enjoyability in deciding whether a card is "casual" or not, at least for the majority of tables. Companions look very casual, very EDH, but are consistency engines and even combo-pieces akin to the stronger tutors. If there is any consistent trend among cards that get banned, it is cards that look casual, but are not. Maybe they will be acknowledged as problems and hated/table-ruled out of casual, but I doubt it.

They are not simply cards that happen to be problematic in EDH, like Braids or Iona; they are cards designed to be problematic in EDH. Especially in the context of their special ruling, you can look at them and say "WotC made this for EDH, the RC gave special mechanics for it in EDH". That will be an impediment to any rule-0-based restraint. Furthermore, both Zirda and Jegantha exacerbate preexisting, well-acknowledged problems in casual EDH, mana sinks in the command zone and five color goodstuff respectively. I'm still on the fence about whether Najeela, Golos and such should be pushed out of the format, but I don't think anyone prior to Ikoria really thought they needed a push in casual.

Also, finding the weakest item in a list and harping on it repeatedly, to the exclusion of other points made, does not do you or your arguments any favors.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
You yourself agreed in another thread, Dirk, that heuristics matter more than actual powerlevel or enjoyability in deciding whether a card is "casual" or not, at least for the majority of tables. Companions look very casual, very EDH, but are consistency engines and even combo-pieces akin to the stronger tutors. If there is any consistent trend among cards that get banned, it is cards that look casual, but are not. Maybe they will be acknowledged as problems and hated/table-ruled out of casual, but I doubt it.
Tbh with how they're performing in competitive formats, I wonder if they might not be pretty target-on-sight in commander. Like how people tend to blow up my Jitte instead of someone else's immortal sun because they know jitte is scary in other formats.

That and it seems really politically dangerous to start a game saying "hey, this is my plan" so face-up, especially if it's something pretty powerful.

But yeah, I mean who knows, we'll have to see how it shakes out. I wouldn't really take any individual early experiences too seriously, though, especially not online. People will probably be deliberately trying to push them to the max.

EDIT: two more points:
-I think the person saying they're breaking the format has the burden of proof in this case, and I think it's still way too early to tell.
-There are 8 companions, even if I'm wrong and Jegantha and Zirda end up being problematic in certain decks, pretty sure nobody is going to break Lurrus, Keruga, Umori, Kaheera, etc. Not to mention fair decks with Jegantha and Zirda, which are certainly possible even if people don't end up making them as often.
They are not simply cards that happen to be problematic in EDH, like Braids or Iona; they are cards designed to be problematic in EDH.
Source?
Especially in the context of their special ruling, you can look at them and say "WotC made this for EDH, the RC gave special mechanics for it in EDH".
People can say that, but I think the facts seem to be that WotC made it primarily for other formats, and the RC decided to accommodate them in commander by adjusting the rules since they seemed like fun. No single body "made this for EDH".
That will be an impediment to any rule-0-based restraint.
Maybe?
Furthermore, both Zirda and Jegantha exacerbate preexisting, well-acknowledged problems in casual EDH, mana sinks in the command zone and five color goodstuff respectively. I'm still on the fence about whether Najeela, Golos and such should be pushed out of the format, but I don't think anyone prior to Ikoria really thought they needed a push in casual.
This assumes that the casual companion-restricted versions of those lists will be stronger than the normal casual lists. Which is possible but I think it's going to vary case-by-case. Personally I suspect Jegantha will be relatively easy to shift to and give a pretty big power boost, whereas I think the power boost Zirda gives, while powerful, will be significantly harder-earned and will likely weaken most decks overall. But I'm sure it will likely improve some.

I do think people are really underestimating the political ramifications of the face-up nature of this thing. But then, I'm Mr. Removal so maybe that matters more to me than most.
Also, finding the weakest item in a list and harping on it repeatedly, to the exclusion of other points made, does not do you or your arguments any favors.
I don't think I excluded any points, did I?

If you're talking about the slivers, I find it very frustrating when someone I'm talking to refuses to yield any ground. I figured he'd quickly realize his mistake and we'd have a good laugh before arguing other, more relevant points. So yeah, when he doubled down I got a bit defensive. I want to feel that we can have an honest discussion and aren't just bashing our heads into each other.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
But yeah, I mean who knows, we'll have to see how it shakes out. I wouldn't really take any individual early experiences too seriously, though, especially not online. People will probably be deliberately trying to push them to the max.

EDIT: two more points:
-I think the person saying they're breaking the format has the burden of proof in this case, and I think it's still way too early to tell.
I do think it's too early to tell completely, but all indicators point to that ruling causing more trouble than it's worth. I think given the potential issues, and the already visible problems with a couple of the companions, keeping a close eye on the further fallout of this rules change is warranted. This is not the same as new cards entering the format. This is the RC making a new ruling, in contrast with both the letter (no wishboards, no edgecases) and the spirit (keep consistency low, avoid pseudocasual cards) of precedent. I think it fair to question such rulings as they are made, and to keep track of where they lead.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
-There are 8 companions, even if I'm wrong and Jegantha and Zirda end up being problematic in certain decks, pretty sure nobody is going to break Lurrus, Keruga, Umori, Kaheera, etc. Not to mention fair decks with Jegantha and Zirda, which are certainly possible even if people don't end up making them as often.
If 25% percent of cards covered under a special rule are problems because of that special rule, it's fair to say that special rule needs to be looked at again.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
That will be an impediment to any rule-0-based restraint.
Maybe?
It's the same effect that's I and others have noticed with precon cards, where tables have a harder time house banning say, Derevi than Zur, because "it's made for commander so it can't be that broken". We also saw this with Erayo in WotCmander, where the decision to make a special ruling in favor of a small group of cards sent the signal that they were all ok, even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. The fact that the RC went out of their way to make Companion do it's thing in EDH sends the same signal.

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