[MCD] Companions are horrible.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

So I hate to just run with a knee-jerk reaction, but companions need a thread anyway so I figured I'd start one rather than tangentially complaining in related threads.

Me and my boys were playing some MTGO the other night with our mid power decks and forgot to say "No 9/10 horsecrap" I guess. So guy jumps in and I look at his commander and all I see in there is Jegantha. I'm like, okay, sure, that's fine, Jegantha seems strong as a commander but not busted.

Then he just goes *off* and casts Sisay, and I somehow miss that Sisay is his commander. We all try to stop him, and were it not for a stupid MTGO "quirk" (where it made me pick targets in the wrong order with a dualcastered grab the reins) we would have stopped it.

But my god, the consistency of this deck!

On *turn 3* he had done a jegantha chain of Sisay into multiple kioras off a hall of the bandit lord -- so without hall it would have been turn 4 -- and passed turn with Jegantha untapped and Sisay out, to be able to fish out protection for it at instant speed.

I'm seeing the exact same thing with zirda, the dawnwaker with kenrith the returned king and golos, tireless pilgrim.

Now obviously this is my kneejerk reaction to seeing something at a higher end of the power spectrum, and specifically relates to mana sink commanders which are an acknowledged huge problem in the format already -- sisay, golos and kenrith could all stand to go and they would only improve the format with their absence.

These companions are nothing at all like the level of synergy we see between partners; we're talking overwhelming advantage to the point all you need to do in the rest of the 99 is ramp, you don't even need to draw cards.

The fundamental question, however, is: How on earth is this level of consistency desirable?

What's your experience been so far? Am I wildly overreacting?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I have only played against them a little on Arena and because of the current pandemic not allowing me to play in person (and, I guess, that the cards technically haven't been released yet in paper) I have no experience with them in EDH,

From a philosophical standpoint, I don't like them but I don't have any data to say they are bad. And, arguably, we probably won't really have that until the set is actually released (hopefully in May). While MTGO gives some exposure to it, what will ultimately end up mattering is probably the play at LGS's so maybe there will be more to talk about in June?

I am still interested to hear of your, and others, experiences on MTGO in the meantime though. At least it is something to know how they are being used and whether the deck restrictions of some of them are really that much of a restriction in the card pool EDH has.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

Jegantha and Lurrus are quite annoying, and I find the companion mechanic fundamentally opposed to the spirit of EDH. The Rules Committee have often spoken about the need to manage consistency, and indeed the singleton structure by nature discourages it. For them to then give special rules to a mechanic that only increases the more irksome forms of consistency feels awry.

They might not be widespread, but where they are present, they will be obnoxious. I've already seen Niv Reborn+Jegantha be absurd. Furthermore, I have no trust in WotC not to take miles where the RC has given inches. They have shown no qualms about powercreeping EDH, often in toxic ways, and from a profit standpoint, this makes sense. They don't want to make sets where people pick up a few cards that marginally improve their decks, and maybe a couple commanders some find interesting, they want to make commanders that dominate an archetype, and chase rares you need a reason not to run in every deck you can.

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Post by Atraxian » 3 years ago

I have the impression that the Rules Committee was strongarmed into accepting the companions into the Commander game.
WotC left them in charge of the rules on a whim and on a whim they can take maters into their hands officially, instead of just skirting around the rules (commander planeswalkers and partner legendaries), pretty much plunging the rules committee in complete irrelevance.

I'm personally one of those that would love to see tutors banned in commander, so the games can have that inconsistency that makes every game different and interesting instead of a "tutor my combo, win on turn 3-4", so I can't really like the companions being legal as basically a second commander or a tutored card.

This said, not every way to use them is the same. For example I would love to have Jegantha available on every game in my janky Ur-Dragon deck as I don't really have the ultra-expensive manabase to sustain a 5-color deck of that kind and allow me to cast my commander once or twice at a reasonable speed.
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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

I haven't been able to play with / against companions yet, but from the OP, it sounds less like a problem with companions in general, and more that Jegantha, the Wellspring is exaggerating the already-existing problem of 5-color commanders being very strong. This was somewhat predictable from the spoiler - Jegantha has a fairly inconsequential deckbuilding requirement, while providing substantial payoff. Can you share some examples of the other companions (with more substantial requirements) being problematic?

I'll believe something like Zirda, the Dawnwaker being problematic alongside Basalt Monolith for an easy infinite mana combo, but no permanents without activated abilities still seems rough. Or is the deck just heavily spell-based? Hmmm...

(as I've facetiously suggested before, this is clearly a sign that Blood Moon and Back to Basics should be included in the precons)

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Mookie wrote:
3 years ago
exaggerating the already-existing problem of 5-color commanders being very strong.
It's definitely possible if you just got rid of golos, sisay and kenrith it'd be OK, but I'm not sure that is better or worse for the format. And there's really no guarantee they don't just print another one. Or maybe Jodah winds up being just as bad.

I think the consistency of adding Jegantha to those commanders really is what puts them over the top into completely unfair territory.

Zirda, also, is ridiculous -- even outside of the various infinite combos, the consistency of being able to play a ton of powerful activated abilities and then spam them is the type of thing that will really crap on casual games. Zirda even makes equip cheaper. It just does way too much on its own...when combined with a commander that will inevitably strongly synergize with it.

The unfortunate fact that Zirda is a really cool Boros general on its own really points - to me - to the idea that they should just cancel the companion mechanic rather than ban the problematic ones.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Jegantha definitely seems like the most problematic companion to me (and it did when they were first spoiled, as can be seen in the "rate the companions" thread). Not a fan of that design, I think the restriction is too lax and the power is too high. That said, you're saying it was in play with haste on turn 3 alongside sisay? To me that sounds like more of a power level discrepancy than anything (I'm also curious, though, does sisay actually have a response to targeted removal when she's power 4? I usually see her running Shalai as their removal protection which would require power 5).

I'm less convinced that Zirda is a problem. Is it good with Golos? Sure, but it's only reducing the cost of the ability by ~30%, cuts down significantly on what you can run, and dies like anything else. Kenrith seems more dangerous since he can resurrect it and gets a bigger %-wise benefit. That said, these are both 5c commanders already with many ways to tutor up training grounds if they so chose, and I think the bigger problem lies with them as overpowered commanders than with Zirda. If someone wants to make a broken deck with Kenny or Golos I feel like they could probably make something comparable if not worse by excluding Zirda.

This is why I think anecdotal evidence is almost entirely useless in commander. You could bring up just about any card that's even been mentioned in the same sentence as the banlist, and I could make a deck that would show how the card can be miserable when abused to the max. That doesn't mean they all need to be banned - it just means the format is most fun when it isn't being broken.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Jegantha definitely seems like the most problematic companion to me (and it did when they were first spoiled, as can be seen in the "rate the companions" thread). Not a fan of that design, I think the restriction is too lax and the power is too high. That said, you're saying it was in play with haste on turn 3 alongside sisay? To me that sounds like more of a power level discrepancy than anything (I'm also curious, though, does sisay actually have a response to targeted removal when she's power 4? I usually see her running Shalai as their removal protection which would require power 5).

I'm less convinced that Zirda is a problem. Is it good with Golos? Sure, but it's only reducing the cost of the ability by ~30%, cuts down significantly on what you can run, and dies like anything else. Kenrith seems more dangerous since he can resurrect it and gets a bigger %-wise benefit. That said, these are both 5c commanders already with many ways to tutor up training grounds if they so chose, and I think the bigger problem lies with them as overpowered commanders than with Zirda. If someone wants to make a broken deck with Kenny or Golos I feel like they could probably make something comparable if not worse by excluding Zirda.
Sisay has shalai at 4, yes -- edit: Oh I see, yeah. Sisay's answer is it gets the 3 drop kiora that untaps jegantha first on 3 then has 5, IIRC. So goes to 5 pretty fast. If you can instant speed kill it or jegantha while the first sisay is on the stack sure, I guess. :)

There was definitely a power level discrepancy but it's the consistency that's the issue. Even on turn 4 without hall that is pretty insane consistency. Essentially that deck will be asking: Do you have a kill spell for Jegantha? every single game on turn 3 or 4, and if you don't have an answer, sisay is going off. Bleck I say.

Zirda is not a problem because Kenrith/Golos decks are *stronger* with it, but because they are super consistent with it. In your example of tutoring up training grounds remember that costs a card, sometimes two (since you vamp tutor for training grounds, say).

WIth zirda, it becomes vamp tutor for a combo piece, zirda and kenrith gg. :P

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Ok, but if you're vamp tutoring for a combo piece...then I think you're outside the scope of the banlist.

I had some trouble with the site so my edit on my previous post was slow, but I think the main point I want to make is that the format is more fun when you don't try to break it (to quote....idk, everybody? Sheldon?)

Training grounds also costs 1 and is harder to kill than Zirda. And doesn't make any impositions on your deck - Zirda doesn't even let you run training grounds. I guess I think Zirda is kind of a big commitment. If it just gets swords'ed right away, you've given up a lot of stuff in your deck that would have helped long-term. If you're going for a fast combo that doesn't really matter, but if you're going for a fast combo you're outside the scope of the banlist.

Jegantha costs a lot less to run, which is why I don't like it (plus it only helps 5c decks which really don't need the help). Personally I almost always run quite a bit of spot removal and/or counterspells, though, so I don't feel as threatened by any particular companion. When they're dead, they're dead (or at least, when they're exiled, they're exiled). To me the much bigger problem is the commanders that can keep coming back in perpetuity, especially with how strong they make them these days.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Ok, but if you're vamp tutoring for a combo piece...then I think you're outside the scope of the banlist.

I had some trouble with the site so my edit on my previous post was slow, but I think the main point I want to make is that the format is more fun when you don't try to break it (to quote....idk, everybody? Sheldon?)
This attitude sort of applies but I am not really sure how much. That is, there is the mindset that Animar (for example) is broken so don't run Animar. Or Golos or Kenrith are broken so don't run them. And that is fine.

While that is fine for "normal" commanders I am not sure the same mindset can be applied here. At least, not to the same degree. This assumes that the Jegantha and Zirda (being the big two) are part of "breaking" the format. I don't know if they are, but I am going to argue based on that assumption for now.

What I mean is that we now have around 900+ cards that can be used as commanders. That is a lot of choice and a lot of options. Granted, some of these are terrible and some are super overpowered, but the point remains is that there is a legitimate choice in what can be run.

The same isn't really true of Companions. We have a total of 8 options. Now, a few are wonky to make work in Commander (such as Lurrus) but others like Zirda and Jegantha don't really feel like they need much "build around" at all. They kind of have the opposite of the Lutri problem: they don't just slot into current decks but they make certain decks so much better that the risk of warping around them is real.

So, of these 8 legal cards, if we assume Zirda and Jegantha are the only problematic ones, we are left with only 6 that don't break the format. Which means more colors are excluded from running companions. At that point "don't break the format" means "don't run 25% of the cards you can run for Companion".

Which means the fun aspect of Companion is pretty much ruined. If the cards look fun to play, but the social contract says not to play them, what is the point of them? Are we fine with 2 of the 8 (or 4 of the 10) not being acceptable for play while still allowing the rest?

I don't think this means a blanket ban or anything like that. I don't want to get too far into the notion of "if I can't have it, no one can" but the risk seems possible that Companion just creates too many problems in the format.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

What I meant was that if you're vamp tutoring for a combo piece (i.e. basalt monolith) then you're outside the scope of the banlist. Simply playing Zirda in a Golos deck doesn't seem problematic to me necessarily (at least, not moreso than just playing golos - and I have played golos decks that weren't problematic for the record). While I dislike Jegantha, I also don't see it necessarily being a problem for most decks. Unless you're planning to win quickly, probably it'll get picked off in a board wipe and is much harder to return than your commander - crisis averted (assuming there was a crisis in the first place).

And even if there's no way to run Jegantha or Zirda without breaking the social contract (which I would say is unlikely to the point of just being straight-up false), that's fine. They can still do things in cEDH or whatever. Maybe they're too strong for 60% tables (they're not necessarily, ofc), but they're presumably fine at some point. 75%? 85%? 90%? Wherever it is, it is. MLD isn't kosher at casual tables either, but that doesn't mean it has no place in the format.

I'm not really sure the "but X color pair can't run commanders!" is a reasonable take. No monocolored commanders can run a companion at all. No odd-cmc dimir commanders can. No orzhov commanders can except 2. Etc. Some subset of commanders have the option to run companions but most don't - thinking about each color pair as being a unit seems arbitrary to me. Plus some of them can, but it's crap, like the UG one. So eh. You take what you can get.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
What I meant was that if you're vamp tutoring for a combo piece (i.e. basalt monolith) then you're outside the scope of the banlist.
It doesn't necessarily mean an actual game ending combo to be dominant - but combo is definitely a part of the game in the scope of the banlist.

If you're vamp tutoring for say a piece that generates a ton of advantage, that's also going to be annoying as hell.

You're also going to trade your removal 1 for 0 every game. It's laaaame. That's the thing these things do.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
combo is definitely a part of the game in the scope of the banlist.
I don't believe there are any combo cards on the banlist, so I'm not sure what you're basing that on. WGD and hulk were both cards on there because of their combo potential but were taken off because combo isn't what the banlist cares about. And now all the cEDH players get to whine about it.

I'm curious what piece generates so much advantage with Zirda? Or why that would be different from tutoring any other synergy piece that gives a ton of value with your commander, except that if it needs Zirda from the companion zone then it's much more fragile.

As someone who has probably cast more removal per commander game than just about anyone, I don't think X-for-X is a useful way to think about removal in most cases. Enemy cards are worth far less than your cards. You interact because you're blocking their threats, not to whittle down their cards one by one. Whether they expend a card or not really isn't that important. What's far more impactful, imo, is that they've gimped their whole deck to exclude lots of cards that would otherwise be very strong. You've basically fired off a removal spell to degrade the quality of their whole deck - and what's more, you get to know which cards they can't have, so you get a huge amount of information as well. That's a lot more impactful than putting them down a single card, imo.

And that's assuming you don't just have a board wipe to kill their companion, commander, and other extraneous targets as well.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
combo is definitely a part of the game in the scope of the banlist.
I don't believe there are any combo cards on the banlist, so I'm not sure what you're basing that on. WGD and hulk were both cards on there because of their combo potential but were taken off because combo isn't what the banlist cares about. And now all the cEDH players get to whine about it.

I'm curious what piece generates so much advantage with Zirda? Or why that would be different from tutoring any other synergy piece that gives a ton of value with your commander, except that if it needs Zirda from the companion zone then it's much more fragile.

As someone who has probably cast more removal per commander game than just about anyone, I don't think X-for-X is a useful way to think about removal in most cases. Enemy cards are worth far less than your cards. You interact because you're blocking their threats, not to whittle down their cards one by one. Whether they expend a card or not really isn't that important. What's far more impactful, imo, is that they've gimped their whole deck to exclude lots of cards that would otherwise be very strong. You've basically fired off a removal spell to degrade the quality of their whole deck - and what's more, you get to know which cards they can't have, so you get a huge amount of information as well. That's a lot more impactful than putting them down a single card, imo.

And that's assuming you don't just have a board wipe to kill their companion, commander, and other extraneous targets as well.
The second banlist criteria is "Allow players to win out of nowhere." While time vault is the only explicitly banned card that is a combo card, many cards are combo adjacent, and combo enablers have been on the list before (see hulk, staff of domination). paradox engine was definitely banned partially for its combo dimension.

Zirda's primary advantage is with kenrith, the returned king. 1U draw a card is pretty good game, and he reanimates a dead zirda so you'd best bring your exile. It's very good with Golos as well, though it has a lot more deckbuilding costs from a Golos perspective.

For every one game someone exiles your Zirda you're going to have ten games where you just go off with Kenrith unopposed after stopping one removal spell -- or they kill it, you reanimate it and then go off.

X-for-X is not everything of course. But they *always* have a second extremely powerful and synergistic threat, and you have to pack your deck with removal to be able to have an answer.

Part of the whole point of commander is if I want to find tutors reliably I've got to play 8 tutors; if I want to have removal all the time I have to play 8 or 10 removal spells.

Jegantha and Zirda are just there all the time, and the tremendous advantage they give by being always there *in addition to a synergistic commander* are well worth their sacrifices. Having them available frees up card slots.

edit: I want to reiterate that this isn't a straight up power level thing. while I think Zirda-Kenrith and Jegantha-Sisay in particular can be built as CEDH decks, the flaw with these designs is the absolutely absurd consistency they have at doing their thing. Even if they are "weaker" than CEDH decks, they are just so consistent at doing the thing they do that it's bad for the format even at lower power.

These cards are create a functional synergy in the command zone that is unmatched even by partners, and the partners are already seriously problematic.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
The second banlist criteria is "Allow players to win out of nowhere." While time vault is the only explicitly banned card that is a combo card, many cards are combo adjacent, and combo enablers have been on the list before (see hulk, staff of domination). paradox engine was definitely banned partially for its combo dimension.
Emphasis on "was". The philosophy has changed over the years.

Time vault is a good point, though I suspect it stays on the list for the same reason library, moxen, etc do. Too few people want them unbanned for the RC to justify doing so, and it sends a bad signal about pay-to-win. If it were a $5 card it'd probably be legal and in the same bucket as other combo-only cards that are mostly shunned.

Paradox engine I'm fairly certain was banned primarily because it's a really tedious way to play the game when used for a non-infinite synergy piece. The actually infinite part I don't think was particularly important. Personally I wouldn't have minded it nearly so much if it just won the game instead of farting around for a 20 minute turn first.

From the banning justification: "Paradox Engine has clearly demonstrated that it doesn't need to be built around to be broken." The issue isn't with cards that combo with other specific cards. The issue is cards that monopolize the game on their own.
Zirda's primary advantage is with kenrith, the returned king. 1U draw a card is pretty good game,
I mean, no offense but if that's the best you've got I'm not impressed. Arcanis only costs 1 more than Kenny and he costs nothing to draw 3 cards. Anybody aching for him to get banned? What about con sphinx? What about flippin' garbage-tier sphinx of magosi, that only costs 1 more to draw and it gets a counter to boot.

I mean yes, Zirda is good with Kenny, no doubt. But a 2-card combo that gives you 2 to draw a card is game-breaking? Ban-worthy? In a format with Necropotence? C'mon. Get out of here.
X-for-X is not everything of course. But they *always* have a second extremely powerful and synergistic threat, and you have to pack your deck with removal to be able to have an answer.
I mean, welcome to commander. There are a lot of big threats, whether they're in the CZ or the 99. Maybe run more sweepers or something. Zirda doesn't even do anything on its own. This really doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem to me.
Jegantha and Zirda are just there all the time, and the tremendous advantage they give by being always there *in addition to a synergistic commander* are well worth their sacrifices. Having them available frees up card slots.
Jegantha is probably worth it for many wubrg decks (hence why I don't like it). Zirda I have a harder time seeing. I've built kenny and most of my creatures were etb triggers to benefit off his reanimation, most of which aren't legal with Zirda. I'd expect there will be versions of him with or without Zirda. Not sure which will be better, Zirda cuts off a lot of stuff. Idk. I just have a hard time seeing this as being such a serious problem. You're really going to need to do a hell of a lot better than 1U: draw a card if you want to scare me. That's kid stuff in this format.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
These cards are create a functional synergy in the command zone that is unmatched even by partners, and the partners are already seriously problematic.
If the price for the mechanic to bite the dust was that Lutri remained banned, they'd be out the door in five seconds flat and I wouldn't even feel bad. I agree with Cryo in another thread, they seriously break the spirit of the rules in a way that other mechanics have not been allowed to.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Not sure which will be better, Zirda cuts off a lot of stuff. Idk. I just have a hard time seeing this as being such a serious problem. You're really going to need to do a hell of a lot better than 1U: draw a card if you want to scare me. That's kid stuff in this format.
I don't think I can since you have ruled combos inadmissible and rebut everything with "dies to dismember."

The point is Zirda and Kenrith are very, very consistent, an the *failure mode* is "2B reanimate a creature, 1U draw a card, G, put a +1/+1 counter on whatever, W gain 5 life. " It's not amazing, but it's very strong for not having to invest any cards from your hand.

I think that's fundamentally where we just differ on this -- you're arguing as if zirda+kenrith or god forbid Zacama with nothing else is the high water mark of effectiveness when it's not. It's the baseline.

The baseline failure state of your deck is "I spend 8 mana to set up an engine that can do all these things every single game" that is a frigging problem. You have other cards in your deck.

You could straight up play zirda, kenrith, and nothing but ramp and interaction and that's a winning strategy in a lot of games -- you can gain functionally infinite life with your white mana, return any creatures that die, do voltron with hasted trampling Kenrith, make all your mana dorks gigantic.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I agree that it's a strong baseline. But the sacrifice you've made is that you're giving up a ton of powerful cards to have that baseline. A baseline that isn't any stronger than just having training grounds in your opener, and if Zirda gets exiled right off the bat you've sacrificed a lot for nothing.

I mean, compare to Zur. Zur costs less than kenny, and can go get necro if he lives for a single turn, then draws 20 cards for zero mana. If commanders with a strong baseline are a problem, why is kenny + Zirda a problem and not Zur? At least with Zirda you've gotta sacrifice something in your deck, Zur doesn't ask anything at all beyond playing necro.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I agree that it's a strong baseline. But the sacrifice you've made is that you're giving up a ton of powerful cards to have that baseline. A baseline that isn't any stronger than just having training grounds in your opener, and if Zirda gets exiled right off the bat you've sacrificed a lot for nothing.

I mean, compare to Zur. Zur costs less than kenny, and can go get necro if he lives for a single turn, then draws 20 cards for zero mana. If commanders with a strong baseline are a problem, why is kenny + Zirda a problem and not Zur? At least with Zirda you've gotta sacrifice something in your deck, Zur doesn't ask anything at all beyond playing necro.
Zirda doesn't have any impact on your interactive spells, and it's so highly synergistic with many of the things it wants to play that I don't think it's that meaningful of a sacrifice - the deck gets worse in some ways but gets vastly more consistent.

There are many gaps with the Zur comparison; zurcropotence is basically going for the throat already. I can think of probably 10 different builds of Zirda that are really casual, but ruin the hell out of casual by being super consistent.

We are gonna be seeing zirda Zacama and zirda kenrith and zirda sliver queen and zirda sliver overlord all over the casual circuit with people's clever casual brews.

And they are going to be horsecrap because even if they're jank they're hyper-consistent jank.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I think you're putting too much emphasis on consistency. Being consistently decent doesn't win games of commander, at least not the sorts of games that feel lopsided, unless it's just a straight-up huge power discrepancy. Most games of commander that feel lopsided are the ones that have some insane explosive nonsense (oh hi emergent ultimatum, how it's going, can you please die?). Not from 2 mana to draw a card. And Kenny is probably the most benefited of the commanders (Zacama also seems strong but at least they don't get all the mana doublers to go infinite, which seem more annoying to me).

My experience with Kenny was that his reanimation ability was by far the most powerful part of the card, and Zirda makes it much harder to get benefit from that. So I do think you pay quite significantly. Ofc he's still a powerful, flexible 5c card, and 5c has enormous advantages in this format. Such is life. But I don't think it's even clear whether he's better or worse with Zirda. And he's probably the best commander for it.

Necro Zur is considered cutthroat because it's been around a long time and people know about it. Zirda is new. If it's problematic (and to be clear, the gap in power between necro zur and kenny + zirda is wider than the grand effing canyon), it'll get lumped in as cutthroat/tryhard as well - given sufficient time. You can't expect the meta to settle instantly. It's a new crazy thing, people are going to push it to the limit because they don't know how strong it is, before the majority of players settle on something less obnoxious. The new hot broken thing is hot. The old broken thing is boring. Just give it time.

Zirda sliver overlord I've thought about. It'd actually be really funny. You don't get any traditional slivers (I guess the cycling sliver? but he's not super exciting), so all you get is changelings. Pretty rough tradeoff, but maybe an interesting build.

Zirda sliver queen, similar thing. Also no mana echoes. Seems hard to make very good. I guess a 7/7 that makes 1/1s for 1 is alright, but I think traditional sliver queen with more slivers and combos are going to be a lot stronger.

I think you're underestimating how much you sacrifice for Zirda. The slivers are hardly going to get broken because of Zirda lol.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Gudleikr » 3 years ago

Lutri: [gets banned because they have no real deck building requirement, but is also the weakest in power level.]
Jegantha & Zirda: [Makes combos easier and faster yet not banned.]

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I think you're putting too much emphasis on consistency. Being consistently decent doesn't win games of commander,
Winning games is not that meaningful a metric in commander. The texture of games means so much more than winning.

I think you're putting way too little emphasis on consistency and how boring it is to see these decks with constant access to two high synergy pieces.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Winning games is not that meaningful a metric in commander. The texture of games means so much more than winning.

I think you're putting way too little emphasis on consistency and how boring it is to see these decks with constant access to two high synergy pieces.
I do wish you'd at least have the integrity to admit when you're wrong. Zirda is totally fine with the slivers. But I guess we can just forget you brought it up. :unamused:

There are lots of commanders that are consistent. Hell, I've been working on my Zirilan of the Claw deck recently, which is far more consistent than Kenny is ever going to be and literally nobody criticizes. It literally gives you a tutor in the command zone. I could draw nothing but mountains and still easily kill someone on turn 7, and the whole table through blockers if I get one of many synergy pieces, and on turn 4-5 if I get good ramp. And there are other (probably more powerful) tutor commanders as well. Sisay 1.0 doesn't need a companion, she's got every Selesnya legendary permanent as her "companion" with a single tap. But because those work inside the "normal rules of the game", and because they've been around long enough that people are used to them, they don't get criticized. Because the only way to solve that problem is with many sloppy bans. So instead the cool new mechanic gets criticized because it's new and thus subject to more scrutiny.

If it's really that repetitive and powerful, it'll eventually fall out of favor, just like Zur isn't particularly popular anymore. It's not going to ruin the format.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

I have to agree that the problem seems to be far more with power level disparities between decks than the companions themselves? Sisay+Jegatha is a strong and consistent combo deck, sure. So is Flash Hulk, and that's been consistently not banned because that's not what the committee bans for. On the other hand, Zirda and Kenrith really only strike me as a problem if you're playing at a higher power level than the rest of your group. If you're all at 75% or whatever, it's a cool synergy that comes with some drawbacks.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago

I do wish you'd at least have the integrity to admit when you're wrong. Zirda is totally fine with the slivers. But I guess we can just forget you brought it up. :unamused:

Snips

If it's really that repetitive and powerful, it'll eventually fall out of favor, just like Zur isn't particularly popular anymore. It's not going to ruin the format.
Is that first part a joke? You of all people wish someone would have the integrity to cede a point? I laughed.

The issue with companions is that it's a mechanic not a commander. Commanders fall out of favor but mechanics get constantly repeated and revisited.

Wizards will print a new commander that revives interest periodically and then they'll revisit the mechanic.

It is not hard to imagine a world where there's a large set of companions and many decks have them. That world is gross.
Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
I have to agree that the problem seems to be far more with power level disparities between decks than the companions themselves? Sisay+Jegatha is a strong and consistent combo deck, sure. So is Flash Hulk, and that's been consistently not banned because that's not what the committee bans for. On the other hand, Zirda and Kenrith really only strike me as a problem if you're playing at a higher power level than the rest of your group. If you're all at 75% or whatever, it's a cool synergy that comes with some drawbacks.
I honestly do not get bent out of shape about power levels, I play a lot with strangers and sometimes power levels mismatch and I am fine to roll with it. I don't mind losing at all. I've been trying to suss out exactly what bugs me about the design and I think a lot of it is how this design space impacts the future.

The idea of making more generals into Zur/Arcum/Momir consistency engines is really not something I think should be done, regardless of power level.
Last edited by pokken 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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