[Poll] Which cards do you think should be unbanned?

[ZenN]

Since several of us have gone back and forth in the update predictions thread, I got curious about the actual numbers on how many people want to see what cards unbanned. So I figure why not make a poll for it?

I've seen this done before, of course, but people's opinions on things change over time, as the card pool grows and average power levels shift.

For anyone not familiar with any of the cards on the list, this may be quicker than going to look them up:

Banned Cards

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• Ancestral Recall
• Balance
• Biorhythm
• Black Lotus
• Braids, Cabal Minion
• Coalition Victory
• Channel
• Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
• Fastbond
• Gifts Ungiven
• Griselbrand
• Iona, Shield of Emeria
• Karakas
• Leovold, Emissary of Trest
• Library of Alexandria
• Limited Resources
• Moxen
• Paradox Engine
• Panoptic Mirror
• Primeval Titan
• Prophet of Kruphix
• Recurring Nightmare
• Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
• Sway of the Stars
• Sundering Titan
• Sylvan Primordial
• Time Vault
• Time Walk
• Tinker
• Tolarian Academy
• Trade Secrets
• Upheaval
• Wishes
• Worldfire
• Yawgmoth's Bargain

[folding_music]

Just voted for Sundering Titan and Panoptic Mirror. they're slow cards which can't even be used for particularly powerful evil. If you're worried about people ramping to these and casting them quickly then maybe ramp is the broken thing huh =P
I think the banlist is quite nice as it stands? There's some unbanned stuff I still think is egregious and damaging in the same way the "pillars" of legacy are just OP cards with tenure but that's not my department.

[if4ko]

Voted for Panoptic Mirror and Rofellos. I can understand the problems with Panoptic Mirror (I'm more concerned about how it can shut down creature decks), but good removal exists for a reason. You can tutor a Shatter effect in your upkeep.

Rofellos is a card I'm personally more passionate about removing. I tend to shy away from banning commanders based on power level, and I'd argue that Rofellos has been power crept in green. Yisan can accrue strong, incremental value, and Selvala is IMO faster and better. Sure, not everyone has a Phyrexian Dreadnought lying around, but Lupine Prototype, Sheltering Ancient, and Wayward Swordtooth exist. It says a lot that I can consistently power out an Eldrazi titan or Blightsteel by Turn 4 in the build. Even something like Marwyn, the Nurturer is as strong as Rofellos, considering how many cheap elves exist out there. Overall, I see it as a legacy ban from the days when Commander had fewer powerful ramp options in the command zone.

[illakunsaa]

I would unban all the things. Edh is a casual format so I don't get why would you even need a banlist?

[cryogen]

I would unban all the things. Edh is a casual format so I don't get why would you even need a banlist?

Because even then if you want a format that is sustainable beyond your personal playgroup you need some sort of base line.

[Hermes_]

I voted for worldfire because I want another way to pop barren glory lol

[Kelzam]

Not meaning to specifically call out Hermes here, but his post is an example of why polls like these useless:

I voted for worldfire because I want another way to pop barren glory lol

Polls on the internet are seldom voted on by people being objective, and the internet's penchant for both recency bias and absurdity leaves trusting public desires or discerning information from them to be questionable at best, The amount of pretty blatantly ignorant opinions out there from people more interested in playing cards because they're told they can't than for the health of a format drives the results of these sort of polls. I can tell you that all the people throwing a fit over Lutri aren't doing it because they want to play an Otter, but because they're being belligerent in the face of being told they can't do something - they don't want to see or understand why, all they see is that they're being told they can't. Yes, people are belligerent - look at how many people stomped their feet and threw a tantrum over Planeswalkers not being Commander when WAR came out, followed by a flash in the pan spotlight on Oathbreaker that has since faded back into obscurity. Or, look at cards that people debate still, such as Gifts Ungiven where there really is no ambiguity as to why it's more powerful than Intuition, yet for all the very obvious reasons that exist, it's still endlessly debated because the people that want it unbanned don't care to see outside the scope of their own playgroup, desires or idea of how the format be ran.

Personally, I love reanimator and would love Recurring Nightmare. But is it healthy for the format? Absolutely not, so I'm not voting for it here. The only unban I find defensible of late is potentially Coalition Victory, but even then I'd rather it not with the amount of dual type (and now tri-type) lands Wizards has printed in recent memory as well as incentive to play 5-colors and cheat 5-color permanents onto the battlefield. It's not an interesting card that will do anything to make a better game or experience. I'm fine with it staying banned.

[Gudleikr]

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - There is just better options than him. Selvala draws you cards on top of producing a large amount of mana. Yisan can fetch bigger threats every turn if hes allowed to live. Kinnan is actually simic, makes your artifacts and creatures produce more mana, also gives you a mana sink to get more threats.

[illakunsaa]

I would unban all the things. Edh is a casual format so I don't get why would you even need a banlist?

Because even then if you want a format that is sustainable beyond your personal playgroup you need some sort of base line.

Why would the format even need to be sustainable? Wotc needs to keep mtg sustainable because they make money from it but as far as I know rc doesn't get money from edh. There are no serious edh tournaments so players won't miss any prizes. Even if 99% of the players just quit edh tomorrow doesn't mean you can't still play edh with your personal playgroup.

I have noticed that edh's playerbase is basically a large collection of insulated playgroups. Every play group has their own vision of edh and each player in those groups have their own ideas too. One group doesn't like eldrazis while another one actively plays them. Trying to find a "baseline" that even remotely fits most playgroups is silly especially when one of the core tenets of the format is about talking with your opponents what kind of game you want.

I think having a ban list creates all kinds of negative effects on the community. Bans and unbans often create feel bads on people have invested in the affected cards. Maybe next monday your favorite commander is gonna hit the ban hammer and some people are sad because they wanted to play gifts but thanks to unban it costs 3x €€. Ban lists also make people think "If it's not banned its' ok to play" making cards like sol ring extremely obnoxious. Ban lists are sort "turn brains off for social interaction" -mode.

I think rc should have no ban list but instead like a document where rc explains what kind of effect different groups of cards have on the game. This hopefully make people think for themselves what they actually want and what to do to achieve that.

[cryogen]

I would unban all the things. Edh is a casual format so I don't get why would you even need a banlist?

Because even then if you want a format that is sustainable beyond your personal playgroup you need some sort of base line.

Why would the format even need to be sustainable? Wotc needs to keep mtg sustainable because they make money from it but as far as I know rc doesn't get money from edh. There are no serious edh tournaments so players won't miss any prizes. Even if 99% of the players just quit edh tomorrow doesn't mean you can't still play edh with your personal playgroup.

I have noticed that edh's playerbase is basically a large collection of insulated playgroups. Every play group has their own vision of edh and each player in those groups have their own ideas too. One group doesn't like eldrazis while another one actively plays them. Trying to find a "baseline" that even remotely fits most playgroups is silly especially when one of the core tenets of the format is about talking with your opponents what kind of game you want.

I think having a ban list creates all kinds of negative effects on the community. Bans and unbans often create feel bads on people have invested in the affected cards. Maybe next monday your favorite commander is gonna hit the ban hammer and some people are sad because they wanted to play gifts but thanks to unban it costs 3x €€. Ban lists also make people think "If it's not banned its' ok to play" making cards like sol ring extremely obnoxious. Ban lists are sort "turn brains off for social interaction" -mode.

I think rc should have no ban list but instead like a document where rc explains what kind of effect different groups of cards have on the game. This hopefully make people think for themselves what they actually want and what to do to achieve that.

I don't mean sustainable from a financial aspect, and I couldn't care less if Wizards or the RC make a profit from the format. I mean that the format continues to be popular and played. Consider Tiny Leaders. If you enjoyed it they you're probably SoL because it didn't catch on and you're not likely to find a game if you travel outside your immediate circle.

[Drusus]

A strong case on why Sharazad could never be unbanned if wishes worked as intended:

[Sinis]

Plus Wishes, please.

[ZenN]

Done.

I didn't realize adding an option would kill the existing votes. That is very unfortunate.

[Sinis]

Done.

I didn't realize adding an option would kill the existing votes. That is very unfortunate.

Oof. Well, good to know for the future.

A ban update just passed, so, maybe the reset is a good thing? That's a silver lining, right?

[JqlGirl]

Plus Wishes, please.

Wishes aren't banned, they just don't do anything.

[ZenN]

Plus Wishes, please.

Wishes aren't banned, they just don't do anything.

Functionally the same thing.

[Sinis]

Wishes aren't banned, they just don't do anything.

As ZenN said, functionally same thing.

It's purely semantic to say "they aren't banned" even if they're technically unbanned. If you really want to, we could make a new poll titled "Which cards should be allowed to function in EDH that currently do not?"

[Legend]

Unbanned everything of course and let rules zero handle it. It works for wishes so of course it'll work perfectly for everything else too. Am I right?

[illakunsaa]

A strong case on why Sharazad could never be unbanned if wishes worked as intended:

Did you actually read that combo? Even if wishes worked that combo is just really bad. You have to several pieces all of which are pretty bad on their own and you have to warp your deck to match zirda's companion requirements. On top of that kenrith already wins you the with infinite mana.

Edit: to make things worse you eventually have to end the subgame because you cant loop actions without a definate end.

[cryogen]

A strong case on why Sharazad could never be unbanned if wishes worked as intended:

Did you actually read that combo? Even if wishes worked that combo is just really bad. You have to several pieces all of which are pretty bad on their own and you have to warp your deck to match zirda's companion requirements. On top of that kenrith already wins you the with infinite mana.

Edit: to make things worse you eventually have to end the subgame because you cant loop actions without a definate end.

The combo also fails because doing that is actually quite simple to resolve. "Oh you're doing what? Yeah I scoop, don't play that stupid deck anymore."

I enjoy these little "how complicated can I make this game without winning or losing" Rube Goldberg machines, but this one fails when it uses infinite mana to make Kenrith get the setup but stopping short of killing the table just for the setup. And that's just a jerk move.

[Drusus]

Did you actually read that combo? Even if wishes worked that combo is just really bad. You have to several pieces all of which are pretty bad on their own and you have to warp your deck to match zirda's companion requirements. On top of that kenrith already wins you the with infinite mana.

Edit: to make things worse you eventually have to end the subgame because you cant loop actions without a definate end.

One, it was suggested to get posted for for BadCombos, which it did and got awarded reddit gold, so its in the same category as Forbidden Orchard + Life//Death + Sorrow's Path + Mirrorweave + Gulf Squid. Also known as the Squid of Sorrows.

Second if you bothered reading the reddit thread the person even got asked about why didn't they use Walking Ballista for this combo. The asker was told that would be a "boring" way of winning the game and so the friends wanted a more interesting way to basically win but not actually win as the opponent would lose infinite subgames.

Third, they can just declare something like a Deltagoogolplex or a Reyo's Number. Its essentially the same thing as say "infinite" but it actually has an integer. And even if you could whittle away the life total eventually, its still the Shahrazad player's turn on returning to the game, so they can just use their infinite mana engine to give their opponent more life.

Like an omegagoogolplex is equal to: g(2*10^24,g(2,2,50,100),50,100) ~ 100{10^5000-1}10^25.

The combo also fails because doing that is actually quite simple to resolve. "Oh you're doing what? Yeah I scoop, don't play that stupid deck anymore."

I enjoy these little "how complicated can I make this game without winning or losing" Rube Goldberg machines, but this one fails when it uses infinite mana to make Kenrith get the setup but stopping short of killing the table just for the setup. And that's just a jerk move.

First, anything can be douche scooped, so that doesn't mean it fails it means you concede because you acknowledge you don't want to lose for all eternity. It doesn't matter whats happening. a douche scoop could be against the Shahrazad combo or it can be when the 98 mountain Ashling the Pilgrim deck with a Basilisk Collar is about to gain a bunch of life.

Second, that was the point. Why do the "boring" method of just outright killing the table thats been done ad nauseum, when you could do something more janky and creative that hasn't been done before.

Also the reason that image came about as according to the OP was "Discussion of modern with friends and the state of it" and "How a simple joke of using Shahrazad to escape companions actually revealed more about the companion mechanic and why it having positive interactions with Shahrazad or Ante cards was funny." and also "inspired creative deckbuilding".

[DirkGently]

This might be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. The "combo" is obviously just a joke/thought experiment. And nobody wants to unban shahrazad regardless of companion. No idea why people are reacting to it at all seriously. Pretty funny, I like it.

Btw what's the point of forbidden orchard in the squid of sorrows combo? Just to give them more creatures to turn into sorrows paths, or...?

[cryogen]

Did you actually read that combo? Even if wishes worked that combo is just really bad. You have to several pieces all of which are pretty bad on their own and you have to warp your deck to match zirda's companion requirements. On top of that kenrith already wins you the with infinite mana.

Edit: to make things worse you eventually have to end the subgame because you cant loop actions without a definate end.

One, it was suggested to get posted for for BadCombos, which it did and got awarded reddit gold, so its in the same category as Forbidden Orchard + Life//Death + Sorrow's Path + Mirrorweave + Gulf Squid. Also known as the Squid of Sorrows.

Second if you bothered reading the reddit thread the person even got asked about why didn't they use Walking Ballista for this combo. The asker was told that would be a "boring" way of winning the game and so the friends wanted a more interesting way to basically win but not actually win as the opponent would lose infinite subgames.

Third, they can just declare something like a Deltagoogolplex or a Reyo's Number. Its essentially the same thing as say "infinite" but it actually has an integer. And even if you could whittle away the life total eventually, its still the Shahrazad player's turn on returning to the game, so they can just use their infinite mana engine to give their opponent more life.

Like an omegagoogolplex is equal to: g(2*10^24,g(2,2,50,100),50,100) ~ 100{10^5000-1}10^25.

The combo also fails because doing that is actually quite simple to resolve. "Oh you're doing what? Yeah I scoop, don't play that stupid deck anymore."

I enjoy these little "how complicated can I make this game without winning or losing" Rube Goldberg machines, but this one fails when it uses infinite mana to make Kenrith get the setup but stopping short of killing the table just for the setup. And that's just a jerk move.

First, anything can be douche scooped, so that doesn't mean it fails it means you concede because you acknowledge you don't want to lose for all eternity. It doesn't matter whats happening. a douche scoop could be against the Shahrazad combo or it can be when the 98 mountain Ashling the Pilgrim deck with a Basilisk Collar is about to gain a bunch of life.

Second, that was the point. Why do the "boring" method of just outright killing the table thats been done ad nauseum, when you could do something more janky and creative that hasn't been done before.

Also the reason that image came about as according to the OP was "Discussion of modern with friends and the state of it" and "How a simple joke of using Shahrazad to escape companions actually revealed more about the companion mechanic and why it having positive interactions with Shahrazad or Ante cards was funny." and also "inspired creative deckbuilding".

Cool. Keep in mind that you presented a meme discussion into an otherwise serious thread with zero context that didn't require going to an outside site for additional reading. So it shouldn't be a surprise that people respond accordingly.

[onering]

Did you actually read that combo? Even if wishes worked that combo is just really bad. You have to several pieces all of which are pretty bad on their own and you have to warp your deck to match zirda's companion requirements. On top of that kenrith already wins you the with infinite mana.

Edit: to make things worse you eventually have to end the subgame because you cant loop actions without a definate end.

One, it was suggested to get posted for for BadCombos, which it did and got awarded reddit gold, so its in the same category as Forbidden Orchard + Life//Death + Sorrow's Path + Mirrorweave + Gulf Squid. Also known as the Squid of Sorrows.

Second if you bothered reading the reddit thread the person even got asked about why didn't they use Walking Ballista for this combo. The asker was told that would be a "boring" way of winning the game and so the friends wanted a more interesting way to basically win but not actually win as the opponent would lose infinite subgames.

Third, they can just declare something like a Deltagoogolplex or a Reyo's Number. Its essentially the same thing as say "infinite" but it actually has an integer. And even if you could whittle away the life total eventually, its still the Shahrazad player's turn on returning to the game, so they can just use their infinite mana engine to give their opponent more life.

Like an omegagoogolplex is equal to: g(2*10^24,g(2,2,50,100),50,100) ~ 100{10^5000-1}10^25.

The combo also fails because doing that is actually quite simple to resolve. "Oh you're doing what? Yeah I scoop, don't play that stupid deck anymore."

I enjoy these little "how complicated can I make this game without winning or losing" Rube Goldberg machines, but this one fails when it uses infinite mana to make Kenrith get the setup but stopping short of killing the table just for the setup. And that's just a jerk move.

First, anything can be douche scooped, so that doesn't mean it fails it means you concede because you acknowledge you don't want to lose for all eternity. It doesn't matter whats happening. a douche scoop could be against the Shahrazad combo or it can be when the 98 mountain Ashling the Pilgrim deck with a Basilisk Collar is about to gain a bunch of life.

Second, that was the point. Why do the "boring" method of just outright killing the table thats been done ad nauseum, when you could do something more janky and creative that hasn't been done before.

Also the reason that image came about as according to the OP was "Discussion of modern with friends and the state of it" and "How a simple joke of using Shahrazad to escape companions actually revealed more about the companion mechanic and why it having positive interactions with Shahrazad or Ante cards was funny." and also "inspired creative deckbuilding".

Thanks, but it's nonsense irrelevant to the thread. It's not even your Reddit post, the post was mad for a contest that is irrelevant to the threads topic, and nobody cares if someone you don't know earned fake Reddit money for a meme combo you didn't create that has nothing to do with the conversation.

[onering]

Plus Wishes, please.

Wishes aren't banned, they just don't do anything.

Functionally the same thing.

Is it though? There are plenty of cards that don't function as intended due to some facet of edh. Is Doubling Chant functionally banned by the Singleton rule? How about Squadron Hawk?

There's a difference between requiring a rule change to work and being banned. One major difference is that wishes used to be able to grab cards from exile (because before the exile zone those cards where removed from the game). If wizards ever decided to reinstate that original functionality (and there is precedent for that, see Winter Orb) then Wishes would be immediately available to play for that purpose without any action by the RC.