SCD: Library of Alexandria

[DirkGently]

We haven't had a thread on Library of Alexandria, so I thought it might be interesting to talk about.

Let me open by saying that this is kind of a hard one for me to talk about objectively, because (1) I love value-generating lands, (2) I love hand-heavy control decks, (3) I love classic old cards, and by far most importantly (4) I own one. So, biases on the table here.

All that said, I'm not sure if I think it'd be best for the format to be unbanned - much as I personally would be pumping the fist if it was. So I'm just going to throw down some pluses and minuses for unbanning it:

+While it's certainly strong, it's not terribly likely, imo, to break games. At least, not in the same way something like sol ring and mana crypt do. In general, tempo is a lot more important when trying to pull ahead and keep ahead early. Library generates CA over time, but most of the nastiest wincons in the format are all about big, bursty plays that don't allow much opportunity to respond. For that matter, Library is somewhat antithesis to explosive starts, because the insane openers that dump 6 mana out on turn 2 will turn off library. If asked whether I'd rather my opponent had a T1 library or T1 sol ring, I'd much rather library, no question. And library can easily be a dead draw late in the game. Even if you're on 4 cards, if none of them are draw, you can't exactly just sit on your hands for 3 turns so you can activate Library again. And while Library is far superior to an expensive draw spell in 1v1 formats, in commander, you could jump through hoops to keep Library drawing you cards most of the game, and easily have all that effort upstaged by someone keeping a consecrated sphinx in play for one turn cycle pretty easily. Big draw is where the power is in commander, not gradual CA. I'd love grindy decks to get a powerful tool like Library.

-It can go into a very wide array of decks. Certainly not all decks - plenty of aggressive decks wouldn't want it, and the more fast mana you're playing, the worse it gets. But virtually any control deck would be improved by it, and probably many combo decks as well. While it wouldn't have the same ubiquity as sol ring or mana crypt (even ignoring the steep price tag) it would show up in a lot of decks and create a large change in the format accordingly.

+It's a cool old card. An argument that gets thrown around a lot when people are arguing on behalf of sol ring is "this is the sol ring format! Where else can I play these cool old broken cards!?" And I feel that applies just as well to Library. Library is an iconic card from magic's history, and it's currently relegated only to vintage, which is a bit of a shame. Compared to the other iconic banned cards like black lotus and the moxen, Library is significantly less powerful in my estimation, as well as less auto-include-y, and thus safer to unban.

-The price is very high, and is likely to become much higher if it's unbanned. This is actually the reason I bought mine years back - the idea of trying to buy Library in a market where it's just been unbanned gives me ulcers just thinking about it. Price isn't generally considered as a criteria for banning, but combined with the wide applications of the card, I think it's likely to be considered by a lot of players to be something of a "pay to win" card. I see people who feel that way about a hyper niche card like tabernacle - I can only imagine how they'd feel about Library, which would likely be significantly more expensive, as well as much more broadly useful.

+On the other hand, mana crypt is the most powerful card in the format, leads to much more explosive starts, and has far greater utility than Library, and only shows up in 9% of decks on EDHrec (which already probably skews towards enfranchised players, not to mention people theorycrafting decks that don't own the card to play, so the actual % in the wild is likely much lower) thanks to its price tag. People don't seem overly bothered by the existence of mana crypt in the format. Library would be much more expensive (and with no possibility for reprint) but for players that can't afford a mana crypt either, the enormous difference in price doesn't make much difference as they're both out of reach. And I'd suggest that the lack of mana crypt hurts most decks far more than the lack of library would.

[Mookie]

Personally, I would be against allowing Library of Alexandria in the format.

I will admit that this is partially from a selfish perspective - there's an approximately zero percent chance of me playing the card myself due to price, while I could definitely see myself running into copies of it in the wild - either real or proxied. However, a larger percentage is because I'm not comfortable with the amount of play that cards see being tied so heavily to price. This is actually why I'm now fairly neutral with regards to Sol Ring being in the format, but strongly against Mana Crypt - the former has been reprinted enough that availability / price isn't really an issue, while that is very much not true for the latter. And if Library were suddenly legal, that would be multiplied many times for it.

As for your other points, I largely agree with them. It is a card that could slot into pretty much any deck, but it's also hard for me to say whether or not it would break games without actually testing it out. Is an early Library strong enough to win a game by itself, given the power level and speed available in the format? I have no idea. While it is a very powerful draw engine (arguably the most powerful one ever printed), there are also several alternatives available - Sea Gate Wreckage, Arch of Orazca, etc. That said, I don't think it is that difficult to keep Library online, particularly if you build around it.

Alternatively: legalize Library, but also print Wasteland and Vesuva in every precon.

[DirkGently]

Is an early Library strong enough to win a game by itself, given the power level and speed available in the format?

I'm not exactly how you mean that, but I really doubt it. Sol ring and mana crypt are at a power level where, even if the table gangs up on the person who played them, that person could still run away with the game and win. I recall a game where I got a T2 Karn (the 7 mana one) off multiple pieces of fast mana. Despite one guy playing a powerful aggro deck (krenko) and another playing a strong control deck (Baral), I played archenemy and won easily.

Can't see that happening with library. It's a good draw engine but if you don't have strong follow-ups, you're playing at a mana disadvantage. Tempo >>> value in the early turns of the game, it's why chrome mox and mox diamond are so good. If you ramp quickly enough, you can easily re-buy the CA you lost with a big draw spell later. You might be able to win archenemy CA-wise, but with a tempo disadvantage you've got no chance.

While it is a very powerful draw engine (arguably the most powerful one ever printed), there are also several alternatives available - Sea Gate Wreckage, Arch of Orazca, etc. That said, I don't think it is that difficult to keep Library online, particularly if you build around it.

I think it's kind of hard to compare how library works in 1v1 formats to multiplayer when talking about "the strongest draw engine". It's great in 1v1 because you can expect anything big to be countered or removed - so you're fighting over ever single mana for tempo, every card for CA. A land that costs nothing and can give you even a few cards is a huge deal. In commander, something like like con sphinx is likely to draw a lot more cards than library over the course of the game, or even just a big single-shot draw spell like recurring insight, no matter how much you build around library. And since you're giving up mana to tap library, it probably "costs" more too. In 1v1 its great because it requires no initial investment, but that's much less of a liability in multiplayer.

Obviously it's lightyears ahead of other land-based draw engines, but I don't think it looks nearly as exciting when compared to spells. A simple phyrexian arena costs you 3 mana to start, but after that it's free draw every turn with no conditions. To say nothing of something like necropotence. Again, if we're talking "what do I not want to see from my opponents in the early turns of the game", I'd much rather face down library than necropotence, not even close.

While we're on the subject, I don't think "building around" library makes a ton of sense. If you're tutoring for library, you've probably already lost the principle advantage of library - it costs no initial mana. You'd be a lot better off searching for a spell that will have a greater impact. Which makes building around it a waste of time since you won't usually have it. It's more likely to be something good to add into control decks that already planned to have full grips, than warping the deck around them. Although it might make the likes of crop rotation slightly more appealing.

[cryogen]

No. Just no.

Let me open by saying .... and by far most importantly (4) I own one. So, biases on the table here.

Me too, so I will fully admit my bias.

+While it's certainly strong, it's not terribly likely, imo, to break games. At least, not in the same way something like sol ring and mana crypt do. In general, tempo is a lot more important when trying to pull ahead and keep ahead early. Library generates CA over time, but most of the nastiest wincons in the format are all about big, bursty plays that don't allow much opportunity to respond. For that matter, Library is somewhat antithesis to explosive starts, because the insane openers that dump 6 mana out on turn 2 will turn off library. If asked whether I'd rather my opponent had a T1 library or T1 sol ring, I'd much rather library, no question. And library can easily be a dead draw late in the game. Even if you're on 4 cards, if none of them are draw, you can't exactly just sit on your hands for 3 turns so you can activate Library again. And while Library is far superior to an expensive draw spell in 1v1 formats, in commander, you could jump through hoops to keep Library drawing you cards most of the game, and easily have all that effort upstaged by someone keeping a consecrated sphinx in play for one turn cycle pretty easily. Big draw is where the power is in commander, not gradual CA. I'd love grindy decks to get a powerful tool like Library.

This is all correct and my main reason for saying it could be safely unbanned (from a power level POV).

-It can go into a very wide array of decks. Certainly not all decks - plenty of aggressive decks wouldn't want it, and the more fast mana you're playing, the worse it gets. But virtually any control deck would be improved by it, and probably many combo decks as well. While it wouldn't have the same ubiquity as sol ring or mana crypt (even ignoring the steep price tag) it would show up in a lot of decks and create a large change in the format accordingly.

Correct. And nearly every single deck would want to try and force it, because "but it might draw me cards for free". This mentality combined with the scarcity and price tag is bad for the format.

+It's a cool old card. An argument that gets thrown around a lot when people are arguing on behalf of sol ring is "this is the sol ring format! Where else can I play these cool old broken cards!?" And I feel that applies just as well to Library. Library is an iconic card from magic's history, and it's currently relegated only to vintage, which is a bit of a shame. Compared to the other iconic banned cards like black lotus and the moxen, Library is significantly less powerful in my estimation, as well as less auto-include-y, and thus safer to unban.

100% agree.

-The price is very high, and is likely to become much higher if it's unbanned. This is actually the reason I bought mine years back - the idea of trying to buy Library in a market where it's just been unbanned gives me ulcers just thinking about it. Price isn't generally considered as a criteria for banning, but combined with the wide applications of the card, I think it's likely to be considered by a lot of players to be something of a "pay to win" card. I see people who feel that way about a hyper niche card like tabernacle - I can only imagine how they'd feel about Library, which would likely be significantly more expensive, as well as much more broadly useful.

Correct. It is already at a point where most players are priced out from owning one, and legalizing it will double the price at least, while giving fuel to the idea that it was unbanned just so a privileged few could run it at the expense of most everyone else.

+On the other hand, mana crypt is the most powerful card in the format, leads to much more explosive starts, and has far greater utility than Library, and only shows up in 9% of decks on EDHrec (which already probably skews towards enfranchised players, not to mention people theorycrafting decks that don't own the card to play, so the actual % in the wild is likely much lower) thanks to its price tag. People don't seem overly bothered by the existence of mana crypt in the format. Library would be much more expensive (and with no possibility for reprint) but for players that can't afford a mana crypt either, the enormous difference in price doesn't make much difference as they're both out of reach. And I'd suggest that the lack of mana crypt hurts most decks far more than the lack of library would.

There would be a very large negative outcry from 99% of the players who are upset that a card which is currently $742 for the cheapest copy on TCGPlayer (holy heck it dropped) and would easily spike back up probably to Timetwister levels just got unbanned just so a privileged few 1%ers could start playing with it. This alone is reason enough to leave it banned.

[pokken]

The only issues that really matter with library are:
1) The price is insane and can't go down
2) If price were not an issue, it would be a format staple on the level of, say, timetwister -- not as much play as mana cyrpt but a lot. Played in a huge variety of decks, probably 10% of the format at least.

I also own a library specifically for this reason - that trying to buy one for Timetwister price is just *gag*. That and I loved it as a kid.

Sadly, I don't think it can be unbanned, despite bazaar of baghdad being largely a stronger card and legal and the same rarity and the same set. The political ramifications are absolutely horrendous in terms of how it would reflect on the RC, especially considering several of them own them.

It's nonsense, and Wizards is to blame with the stupid reserve list. It needs to go and this is a great example of why.

[DirkGently]

100% agree.

What's really sad is that I don't think it's even really played much in vintage. Hopefully it's at least seeing play in 93/94.

There would be a very large negative outcry from 99% of the players who are upset that a card which is currently $742 for the cheapest copy on TCGPlayer (holy heck it dropped) and would easily spike back up probably to Timetwister levels just got unbanned just so a privileged few 1%ers could start playing with it. This alone is reason enough to leave it banned.

Yeah, I think in an alternate universe where it had never been banned, it'd just be one of those things like mana crypt that's just an accepted advantage of playing with money, except far more expensive and far less powerful. But in this universe, it'd be really hard to justify.

Sidebar but I don't get why people think timetwister is so good. I kinda get wheel of fortune, since red has a lot fewer strong draw tools compared to blue. But in blue, I feel like there's only 2 real reasons to play it:

-You're playing a wheels deck (nekusar, the new pirate rider partners, etc)
-You're playing some sort of storm deck
-You've got some kind of combo with it (narset, cyc rift, etc) that you're setting up consistently

Otherwise just run better draw and don't fuel your enemies. If you're playing timetwister in your average blue deck you're basically just throwing away blue's biggest advantage for no reason.

I think I've played mine in....one deck. Out of over a hundred.

[pokken]

Timetwister combos with notion thief and also shuts off graveyard combo decks and also generates infinite loops with multiple generals (thrasios, tasigur) plus goodstuff removal cards.

timetwister
infinite mana
thrasios
reality shift
beast within
== infinite combo with no bad cards like oracle.

In my experience you're right that it's just not very good outside of CEDH though. But it is really good in CEDH and has some applications in casual.

Lots of casuals just like wheels for funs

[cryogen]

Sidebar but I don't get why people think timetwister is so good. I kinda get wheel of fortune, since red has a lot fewer strong draw tools compared to blue. But in blue, I feel like there's only 2 real reasons to play it:

-You're playing a wheels deck (nekusar, the new pirate rider partners, etc)
-You're playing some sort of storm deck
-You've got some kind of combo with it (narset, cyc rift, etc) that you're setting up consistently

Otherwise just run better draw and don't fuel your enemies. If you're playing timetwister in your average blue deck you're basically just throwing away blue's biggest advantage for no reason.

I think I've played mine in....one deck. Out of over a hundred.

I mean, those are all very good reasons to run it. (I also have yet to cast it yet because it never makes the cut. More out of paranoia of taking it out my house.)

[DirkGently]

I mean, those are all very good reasons to run it.

Sure, but they seem pretty niche to me. I keep seeing people say it's an autoinclude in blue. Invariably these are people who don't actually have the card, of course.

I never really understood the appeal of "the wheels deck". If I wanted my opponents to draw cards I'd play Uno.

[Sinis]

Full Disclosure: I own one, and have for many years. Never actually played it; when I bought it, I had aspirations to play Vintage (LOL, LOOK HOW THAT TURNED OUT)

I think it's probably safe to unban because hardly anyone I know has even seen one. Mana Crypt is far more available in terms of supply, would appear in more decks, but people hardly play it in my circles.

[darrenhabib]

I too might have bias as I have one, although its very beat up.

I'm just trying to think if its just an automatic include for every cEDH deck, even 4 or 5 colors? Would I play it in my Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver Flash/Hulk/Consultation deck?
Yes is the answer, because often games do come down to grinding out resources more than quick wins, due to the amount of disruption.
I'd be happy to include as a "spell" rather than a land slot when needing to find room.

I think one element that currently makes it a little too good is the "free mulligan" that commander has. That is you get to try for another 7 card hand. One of the downsides of Library of Alexandria is when you mulligan multiple times taking you off 7 cards.

Its one of those border line cards. It certainly doesn't break the format, but at the same time it such a low cost to include it in any deck. By low cost I don't mean the price to buy one

And on that note, inclusivity shouldn't be a factor when deciding on its impact. After all not many people can afford an Imperial Seal or Mana Crypt for every single one of their decks. Magic does offer a rich person more advantages. That's just the way it is.
The only real question that needs to be asked is "Is it too good for game play?".
And I think once you really break it down, the answer is no. But it does become a staple for competitive decks, just like Mana Crypt is. Get your wallets out.

[BaronCappuccino]

I don't own one, and I won't own one, but I would favor unbanning it. I like to think Commander has valid reasons for banning cards. The only possible reason Library was initially banned was perceived barrier to entry, and they'll never use that excuse ever again, current thinking seems to hold. The only reason it's still banned is because the process for unbanning is as meticulous as the one for banning. If it wasn't banned already, it wouldn't be banned now, I would wager. Any card that wouldn't be banned today if it wasn't banned already aught to be unbanned. The common response to this line of argument is, "what does it add to the format if unbanned?" and the answer is, more than 90% of the new stuff that gets printed. We don't ban cards that don't add much to the format.

[Wallycaine]

Its one of those border line cards. It certainly doesn't break the format, but at the same time it such a low cost to include it in any deck. By low cost I don't mean the price to buy one

And on that note, inclusivity shouldn't be a factor when deciding on its impact. After all not many people can afford an Imperial Seal or Mana Crypt for every single one of their decks. Magic does offer a rich person more advantages. That's just the way it is.

I think that the recent banning of Lutri does imply that inclusivity is at least an element that goes into the banning process. After all, the rest of the companions (and the rules council's own words) imply that he wouldn't have been banned if he didn't go in Every r/u deck. So there's a spot where ubiquity or perceived need for ubiquity becomes a banning justification in and of itself. I don't think Library would quite reach that point (I'm not sure any card that is in the 99 could), but it can theoretically exist. I also think that the financial aspect should be taken into consideration on reserved list cards, at the very least for removing them. They're never going down in price, and ubiquitous pieces that have a high price to obtain create a perceived (or actual) barrier to entry that really hinders format growth. Just ask Legacy players about their format's growth over the years.

[pokken]

I think Library woulda been fine had it been unbanned from the start, no question.

The politics if it are a bigger deal I think than people realize. The RC would be absolutely crucified on social media for it, and I really don't think that's a worthwhile risk. Even though I would personally love to play mine

[darrenhabib]

Its one of those border line cards. It certainly doesn't break the format, but at the same time it such a low cost to include it in any deck. By low cost I don't mean the price to buy one

And on that note, inclusivity shouldn't be a factor when deciding on its impact. After all not many people can afford an Imperial Seal or Mana Crypt for every single one of their decks. Magic does offer a rich person more advantages. That's just the way it is.

I think that the recent banning of Lutri does imply that inclusivity is at least an element that goes into the banning process. After all, the rest of the companions (and the rules council's own words) imply that he wouldn't have been banned if he didn't go in Every r/u deck. So there's a spot where ubiquity or perceived need for ubiquity becomes a banning justification in and of itself. I don't think Library would quite reach that point (I'm not sure any card that is in the 99 could), but it can theoretically exist. I also think that the financial aspect should be taken into consideration on reserved list cards, at the very least for removing them. They're never going down in price, and ubiquitous pieces that have a high price to obtain create a perceived (or actual) barrier to entry that really hinders format growth. Just ask Legacy players about their format's growth over the years.

I personally don't think that Lutri banning was anything to do with considering availability, but to do with just simply giving Izzet an unfair advantage. I could be wrong, they (RC) might have explicitly have stated that's the case.

[pokken]

It would be really nice if it were legal online at least where library is $0.55

[darrenhabib]

It would be really nice if it were legal online at least where library is $0.55

Unbanning happens, and prices spike to $4.20. Outrage can be heard across the lands!

[pokken]

It would be really nice if it were legal online at least where library is $0.55

Unbanning happens, and prices spike to $4.20. Outrage can be heard across the lands!

Screw it i'm in for 55 cents, I got one

[darrenhabib]

It would be really nice if it were legal online at least where library is $0.55

Unbanning happens, and prices spike to $4.20. Outrage can be heard across the lands!

Screw it i'm in for 55 cents, I got one

Damn it, I'm going to panic buy one now as well lol.

[pokken]

Screw it i'm in for 55 cents, I got one

Damn it, I'm going to panic buy one now as well lol.

And so began the great MTGO Library of alexandria buyout

The year is now 2028 and Libraries are unbanned in commander but somehow cost $1500 online, like their predecessors Rishadan Port.

[cryogen]

Great, now they're never going to unban Library. THANKS A LOT GUYS.

[pokken]

Great, now they're never going to unban Library. THANKS A LOT GUYS.

They went up to 56 cents, at least the nice old bordered version.

The newer uglier version can still be had for a cool 14 cents
https://www.cardhoarder.com/cards/53159 ... alexandria

[CrazyPierre]

Obligatory warble nod where "You can't have Library banned if Tolarian Academy is banned. If Academy is too fast, then Library should be unbanned. l2b." Just because that post was...something else.

That said, I don't really see this happening. It's super expensive and gives uninhibited card draw across the board.
Besides, the new "Ferocious" Library in Ikoria is hilariously easy to enable, with an Awaken spell + Seedborn Muse you are drawing every turn. Yes, it does cost mana to do so...but I'll be playing it all over, especially in Jor Kadeen since it's always on.

[DirkGently]

Besides, the new "Ferocious" Library in Ikoria is hilariously easy to enable, with an Awaken spell + Seedborn Muse you are drawing every turn. Yes, it does cost mana to do so...but I'll be playing it all over, especially in Jor Kadeen since it's always on.

I'm really excited about it because I'm playing a very nonland-permanent-light deck where it's a decent draw engine that is, most importantly, a land.

But if you're committing to the board (and if you're playing seedborn muse, you are) then you may as well play a more efficient engine. For a few mana you can get an archivist which requires no mana, or azami, or hell just get a con sphinx and you don't need the seedborn muse at all.

It honestly looks pretty uninteresting to any deck that's actually planning to play spells. Because spells are so much more efficient. The only real use it has in those decks (aka basically any deck that isn't really weird), imo, as a backup backup backup draw engine in case everything else gets turned off.

I mean, it's basically a single use azure mage, and that's only with an enabler.

[Vertain]

First things first: I do not own a copy of Library of Alexandria. Proxies, however, are considered fair game where I usually play, so it's a cosmetic issue at worst. That said, I am 100% in favor of it staying banned. Forever. Here's why:

1) As some posters before me have pointed out: On turn 1, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are more damaging to the game than Library and I fully agree. However, Commander desperately needs fewer things that disproportionately reward you for being in your opening hand, not more.

2) Speculation: the Gathering is a cancer and needs to die. I wholeheartedly disagreed with the abolition of "perceived barrier for entry". Considering Sheldon's stance on proxies (a fat don't, which, to be fair, is to be expected from someone closely affiliated with WotC), the format being marketed as inclusive, as well as the rather casual orientation on the banlist, something doesn't add up there.

3) This is anecdotal, but my local "meta" would not survive this. Most decks are very casual, not having to mulligan for turn 1-2 hate cards is incredibly relaxing. Library would be insanely over the top in such an atmosphere, at next to no opportunity cost.