SCD: Library of Alexandria

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4540
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
3) This is anecdotal, but my local "meta" would not survive this. Most decks are very casual, not having to mulligan for turn 1-2 hate cards is incredibly relaxing. Library would be insanely over the top in such an atmosphere, at next to no opportunity cost.
Not needing turn 1-2 hate cards is "very casual"? Low bar.

Much like sol ring, I think library is totally fine in a casual deck. It greases the wheels of your deck, but it doesn't win the game. If you're just using it to draw more 75% cards it's not going to be much of a problem. Although ofc, sol ring is a couple bucks so it goes everywhere. Library is expensive enough it'd likely show up primarily in high powered decks where it's more threatening.

I'd assume most casual groups would ignore it getting unbanned since nobody would have one. And if they did, and put it into a casual deck, I don't think it'd make it "un-casual" all of a sudden.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Tags:

Vertain
Posts: 41
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Not needing turn 1-2 hate cards is "very casual"? Low bar.
that one comes from personal experience. I stopped playing Commander for several months when the meta was spikey and cutthroat. When I gave it another try a lot of things had changed since then, and the abscence of having to have early hate cards to not be irrelevant from the get-go was the most noticeable (positively so) to me.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Much like sol ring, I think library is totally fine in a casual deck. It greases the wheels of your deck, but it doesn't win the game. If you're just using it to draw more 75% cards it's not going to be much of a problem.
I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree on this one. To you, both are okay in a casual setting, while to me, neither is. I agree on the notion that they are continually less acceptable/more of a problem the higher the power level goes. We just draw the line at a different spot.

onering
Posts: 1227
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 4 years ago

Library would be most problematic in a casual setting, because it's in casual where you are most likely to both be able to maintain 7 in hand early and afford to set yourself back 1 Mana every (or most) turns to keep the cards flowing, and it's in casual that this becomes lopsided card advantage in the form of a land and no Mana commitment beyond tapping it. In cEDH it would be merely good, a nice little backup draw engine if you have to grind it out, but you are less likely to meet it's requirements in cEDH and you'd usually rather be tapping it for Mana.

If it stays banned, it's because its a card that can literally go in any deck and if played early produces lopsided resource advantage for negligible investment, especially in casual. Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study can potentially draw more cards, but they cost Mana, can only go in blue decks, and can more or less be played around, especially study (though the more casual the meta the more likely Mystic Remora is to whiff and end up being something like a 4 Mana draw 2 over 3 turns).

NGW
Legacy/Commander
Posts: 33
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SoCal

Post by NGW » 3 years ago

I see it in a light similar to something like OG Emrakul. It honestly probably could be unbanned without hurting the format all that much, but conversely it doesn't really add anything positive to the format to justify unbanning it.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Honestly I find myself wondering nowadays if the price situation has just gotten so ridiculous that they should go ahead and unban Library of Alexandria. It's clearly nowhere near as busted as anything else that goes on, and people just proxy Timetwister and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale these days if the meta demands it.

I doubt it would get more expensive than $5000 Timetwister if it was legal, and interestingly I am not sure CEDH decks could even play it. They tend to run out their hands and can't absorb the colorless lands most of the time, so lots of tension there with all the busted mana rocks.

It's unfortunate that there'd still be some serious financial stink on them if they unbanned it and it got out early, and that's probably the main reason they'd avoid it I think.

full disclosure: I own one and would play it (in something, come hell or high water:P)

onering
Posts: 1227
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 3 years ago

Counterpoint: mtgo and other online platforms. They can't be ignored, and the price of the card in paper doesn't do anything about it being cheap as hell online with nothing keeping it from being in every deck. Same for the Power 9 btw, if the RC decided to unban them because price in paper means they would be de facto banned from almost every meta anyway, they would flood the online meta.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

onering wrote:
3 years ago
they would flood the online meta.
I mean I think they'd see some play for sure, but I think the game has changed a lot. Most people do not sit around with 7 cards, making it most likely that it's not actually that good outside of in an opening hand that wants to play slow.

It's more of a control shell with low ramp type of thing, and those decks are kinda actively bad right now. Decks ramp so much these days and often do not draw back up to 7.

Decks are also really moving away from as many colorless lands and to lower and lower land counts mirroring CEDH decks. I see a lot of 32-35 land "casual" decks these days.

Lower curves, more ramp, more colors makes a colorless land that rates to be completely dead outside of an opening 7...not really that amazing.

Not to undersell it or anything, it's great, just that I don't think it's likely to be a huge powerhouse, and certainly not an autoinclude.

There was a time I'd have argued it was borderline autoinclude but that was when 2c decks were by far the most common and manabases** were way different.

** to give you an idea many CEDH decks do not play Ancient Tomb because they can't afford to have lands that don't tap for colors.

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3461
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

I'd still be against an unban, primarily due to card availability and the number of decks Library of Alexandria goes in. I will acknowledge the fact that there is an opportunity cost to running Library over a colored land, but I still don't believe that to be a very significant cost.

That said, given the extent to which the format has both sped up and skewed towards many-colored decks, I could see some arguments for unbanning Library in an effort to push towards grindier games and decks with fewer colors. Unfortunately, due to the previously mentioned card availability issues, I don't think that an unban would meaningfully push in that direction. It's possible it may help out cEDH control decks, but as a casual player, that doesn't matter to me quite as much.

...War Room is one recent card that arguably pushes in that direction, so I suppose we'll see how the meta evolves as WotC prints more cards in that vein.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Mookie wrote:
3 years ago
I'd still be against an unban, primarily due to card availability and the number of decks Library of Alexandria goes in.
What decks really want it anymore? I feel like it's down to maybe 1 in 10 decks that want it at most. Huge change in manabases over the years.

Certainly it's a lot fewer decks than want Timetwister at twice the price?

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3461
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Mookie wrote:
3 years ago
I'd still be against an unban, primarily due to card availability and the number of decks Library of Alexandria goes in.
What decks really want it anymore? I feel like it's down to maybe 1 in 10 decks that want it at most. Huge change in manabases over the years.

Certainly it's a lot fewer decks than want Timetwister at twice the price?
Looking exclusively at my own decks, I'd be interested in testing it in around half of them - Teysa, Brago, Thada, Mizzix, and Tasigur (all 1C or 2C decks). It's possible that it would end up getting cut from a few due to difficulties with maintaining seven cards in hand, but it's also possible that I'd end up wanting it in a few of my 3C decks (Samut is already running Magus of the Library). In contrast, I'd only be interested in running Timetwister in two decks (Thada and Mizzix) - it's an effect that I consider harder to just slot in a deck due to its symmetric nature. Timetwister does get waaaay better when you're already running a pile of fast mana or Hullbreacher (which I am not), but I think I'd still pass on it for most of my decks even if I were running more fast mana - my decks are too grindy (and graveyard-dependent) to want to allow my opponents to refill their hands.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4540
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
What decks really want it anymore? I feel like it's down to maybe 1 in 10 decks that want it at most. Huge change in manabases over the years.

Certainly it's a lot fewer decks than want Timetwister at twice the price?
I've only played my timetwister in like 2 decks (out of 120 or whatever I'm up to now). It's powerful when abused (i.e. with narset, or in storm) but that's a pretty narrow spectrum imo. It's similar to cards like tabernacle, workshop, and bazaar where I think that people hypothesize about how much they want them because they know they won't get them, but in reality they're not actually that great and definitely not versatile. Tabernacle for example is kind of awful unless you're playing it alongside winter orb or something.

By contrast, I'd probably end up playing library in a pretty large number of my decks. Ofc, I trend towards grindy control decks so that might be a somewhat biased opinion. But you've also gotta keep in mind that we're talking about a colorless card. That means even 10% of decks wanting it is an insane number of decks. That would put it between Sun Titan and Ponder in terms of ubiquity - if it were widely available. And unlike a dual land, it's not going to have a minor impact on games - ofc sometimes it will, but sometimes it'll draw 5+ cards and look pretty insane. I think it's generally a bad experience when someone feels they lost because someone else had a powerful card. I've had salty people say "you only won because you've got X" which doesn't feel great. It's one thing for miserable cards like tabernacle that most people wouldn't want to play anyway, but it seems worse for a card that wouldn't have any real negative social stigma, like a powerful draw engine on a land.

But, on the other hand, I'd absolutely love to play my library so I would be 100% psyched if they unbanned it. And I don't think it would be broken or anything. But I do think it would exacerbate the gap between the haves and have nots, and probably be an overall negative to the format, so I can absolutely understand why they probably don't want to unban it.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I would love to play with a Library but I fear what those who don't own one would feel. I get a lot of flack when I play a Bazaar / Tabernacle already and those cards are a lot more selective in what kind of decks they fit in. It was a bit easier for me to have these discussions like five years ago before we saw significant upgrades in old reserve card prices (especially sought after lands).

Overall, I would love to have one of these and be able to play it, but I also get the feels bad man feel when you see someone else who has access to these cards you can't afford. If it wasn't already banned I would probably opt to leave it alone but with it being a banned card already, I guess I am sort of for it staying that way. I go back and forth a lot on this one as it is a really cool card.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

Swift2210
Posts: 14
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Swift2210 » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I would love to play with a Library but I fear what those who don't own one would feel. I get a lot of flack when I play a Bazaar / Tabernacle already and those cards are a lot more selective in what kind of decks they fit in. It was a bit easier for me to have these discussions like five years ago before we saw significant upgrades in old reserve card prices (especially sought after lands).

Overall, I would love to have one of these and be able to play it, but I also get the feels bad man feel when you see someone else who has access to these cards you can't afford. If it wasn't already banned I would probably opt to leave it alone but with it being a banned card already, I guess I am sort of for it staying that way. I go back and forth a lot on this one as it is a really cool card.
Prices are getting so ridiculous, I stopped playing at shops years ago. How did you feel when someone new played a Bribery on you with those cards in your deck?

I have a Library of Alexandria I would love to play for nostalgia. As the years have progressed I've only felt stronger that it doesn't belong on the banlist. Power creep has occured. I've been watching my friends make plays like, swing with Zur the Enchanter and Necro for 30, also I cast Ad Nauseam, in response Angel's Grace and then pick up my library, or various t1 wheels. There are simply better options for card advantage. With green, my Azusa list I can bring Scute Swarm online and it's not unusual to cast Shamanic Revelation or Regal Force and draw 64+ cards the same turn and swing for lethal. There is only one time I'd ever want a Library in my hand with Azusa and that is in an opening hand alongside Jeweled Lotus a forest and one other land. Every set Wizards prints more tutors and it gets easier and easier to hit your back breaking plays. LoA is neither necessary or even on a power level basis compared to the worst things that can happen on a table at parity, broken. Losing a turn in this ever faster meta gets costlier the faster and more competitive your meta is... I think I would play Library of Alexandria in colorless or mono white where there are pitifully few options, or possibly a blue green control heavy list built solely to abuse Library. The closest generic color Library-like land is Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and other than in my Azusa it sees no play in my meta. I don't believe now or in the future players would be jamming(proxying) LoA's into all their decks if it were legal to play.

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Swift2210 wrote:
3 years ago
Prices are getting so ridiculous, I stopped playing at shops years ago. How did you feel when someone new played a Bribery on you with those cards in your deck?

I have a Library of Alexandria I would love to play for nostalgia. As the years have progressed I've only felt stronger that it doesn't belong on the banlist. Power creep has occured. I've been watching my friends make plays like, swing with Zur the Enchanter and Necro for 30, also I cast Ad Nauseam, in response Angel's Grace and then pick up my library, or various t1 wheels. There are simply better options for card advantage. With green, my Azusa list I can bring Scute Swarm online and it's not unusual to cast Shamanic Revelation or Regal Force and draw 64+ cards the same turn and swing for lethal. There is only one time I'd ever want a Library in my hand with Azusa and that is in an opening hand alongside Jeweled Lotus a forest and one other land. Every set Wizards prints more tutors and it gets easier and easier to hit your back breaking plays. LoA is neither necessary or even on a power level basis compared to the worst things that can happen on a table at parity, broken. Losing a turn in this ever faster meta gets costlier the faster and more competitive your meta is... I think I would play Library of Alexandria in colorless or mono white where there are pitifully few options, or possibly a blue green control heavy list built solely to abuse Library. The closest generic color Library-like land is Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and other than in my Azusa it sees no play in my meta. I don't believe now or in the future players would be jamming(proxying) LoA's into all their decks if it were legal to play.
I have more than once lent out those decks to be played by others so I guess my concern is more of how they shuffle and handle the deck than actual theft. I like playing with my cards rather than proxying but some of this also comes from me having never paid more than $300 a card. If and when I actually pay a few thousand for a card maybe that will change my mind on this stuff lol.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Swift2210 wrote:
3 years ago
I don't believe now or in the future players would be jamming(proxying) LoA's into all their decks if it were legal to play.
Say this card was a $1.00 bulk mythic like it is online. Would it see tons of play?

I think it would see a lot, at least 1/10 or so decks, most 1 and 2 color decks would want to play it. But most 1 and 2 color decks play a lot of crap.

It's basically impossible to argue that the banning has anything to do with power level nowadays though and that's pretty telling...way back when the threads kinda thought it would be a borderline autoinclude. :P

I find myself thinking that banning any cards for financial reasons was a mistake and should be undone; the rest of the power 9 are all bannable for power level reasons. Because it's not like we are banning $8000 Timetwister which is far more problematic from a power level perspective even if not a ubiquity perspective.

Maybe they should unban it on MTGO and see what happens?

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Rules and Philosophy”