[SCD] Drannith Magistrate

[Rumpy5897]

The Feather versus Golos comparison is very apt, and actually helps cast some light at the underlying dynamics of this debate. I'm pretty sure that if enough zoom-in was done on each poster's preferences here a trend would emerge where the ones with affinity towards engine legends are more in opposition to the Magistrate. I'm one of those people. I find a pile of chaff that pops off with a particular commander a lot more exciting than something more goodstuffy with the commander playing a lesser role. Often legends offer an additive effect that helps the deck purr and the thing still can work without them, which helps explain the ratio of people just shrugging this off. Whatever Atraxa do can likely still happen without the proliferate, if at slightly decreased efficiency. Xenagod can still play fat, it'll just be half-sized and slower in getting into the red zone. Feather does nothing. This is a fact that I'm aware of, and have built around by including various protective shenanigans to keep Feather alive once she lands. This works, so well in fact that I actually brave (and win) Cockatrice pubs with this deck while my other cute heaps are far too dismal to set foot in those waters.

I have little actual personal stake in this conversation. My group unanimously proclaimed the Magistrate as gross and nobody has interest in running it. As such, my various commander-centric dreams won't get muffled by a simple two mana play that dies to removal. However, that likely makes me biased to dislike it, and I picked up on that dissonant situation with the Xantcha getting caught out more than I would have if they tried to interact with a mutate pile and it behaved strangely or whatever. I'm still very ambivalent towards the Magistrate, even with my bias acknowledged. I feel that a hatebear that poopoos on a lot of lower power decks while barely affecting the stronger ones is not particularly healthy.

[Dunharrow]

If every white deck plays this then I am sure it will be heavily considered for banning.
I don't plan on playing it. Just paint a target on myself. But if 3 decks at every table are running it then we have a problem.

So if every deck packing red starts to play Blood Moon, are we going to ban that too? Perhaps, it's time to change the mindset that one's general is a given each and every single game? Having a virtually-undeniable access to a resource throughout the game is broken. And it's okay for people to stop you from doing broken stuff. Less complaints about cards like these and more complaints about Edgar Markov, Derevi, Yukiro instead.

Magistrate is neither a board-stasis-inducing-card like Winter Orb nor a choke-you-out-of-resources-card like Smokestack.

Apparently my reply to this vanished.

If every green deck played Giant Growth, it would be considered for banning. That is why Sol Ring and Cyclonic Rift are often brought up.
Blood moon has been around a long time, so I doubt it will ever become an auto-include.

Magistrate literally stops half of my 18 decks from performing to more than 50% efficacy. I build around my commanders. My Arjun deck does nothing without Arjun wheeling multiple times per turn. I took a look at a weird ability and tried to make it game-winning. Without that weird ability, the deck does nothing. You may call it 'glass-cannon', but this is how I have fun in Commander. I like looking for weird win conditions or building a deck around a specific idea.

You may not build around your commander, but many people do.

If Magistrate becomes an auto-include, it will be banned. It stops people from playing their Commanders, the namesake of this format. It interacts poorly with the way Commander is structured. If it also becomes ubiquitous in the format, it will not last.

I get it is a small 1/3 body. And sure, I can deal with one of them. But if there are multiples every game, then it will warp commander into a war over Magistrate.

[pokken]

And this is why I'm fairly confident you're wrong: because you're bad at math. Like, I don't mean that as a judgement. But in a 10 turn game, 1 commander drawing 15 and 1 drawing 7 is not them "beat[ing] a card by turn by a lot", that's barely scraping across the minimum between the two of them. When you add the big fat whopping zero from Intet, which doesn't stop counting because of mana screw, then we're looking at an average of around 0.7. And that's for a game you remembered to select because it featured a ton of card draw, which makes it highly likely to represent the higher end of the range. Its hard to take your claim seriously when even your own examples fail to bear you out.

What're you trying to achieve with the bad at math dig? Internet points? "I don't mean that as a judgment." I laughed.

You're assuming an awful lot of bias. I picked this game out because it was just a random game that I remembered that happened to have at least someone *not* drawing any cards off their commander. (otherwise, why discuss a game where I'm on a meme deck?:P)

I specifically did not count the Winota game where she drew 27 cards by turn 7 Or the game where I activated Golos 6 times in a turn on I wanna say turn 5 Maybe 6? I could look at the game replay.

[Wallycaine]

And this is why I'm fairly confident you're wrong: because you're bad at math. Like, I don't mean that as a judgement. But in a 10 turn game, 1 commander drawing 15 and 1 drawing 7 is not them "beat[ing] a card by turn by a lot", that's barely scraping across the minimum between the two of them. When you add the big fat whopping zero from Intet, which doesn't stop counting because of mana screw, then we're looking at an average of around 0.7. And that's for a game you remembered to select because it featured a ton of card draw, which makes it highly likely to represent the higher end of the range. Its hard to take your claim seriously when even your own examples fail to bear you out.

What're you trying to achieve with the bad at math dig? Internet points? "I don't mean that as a judgment." I laughed.

You're assuming an awful lot of bias. I picked this game out because it was just a random game that I remembered that happened to have at least someone *not* drawing any cards off their commander. (otherwise, why discuss a game where I'm on a meme deck?:P)

I specifically did not count the Winota game where she drew 27 cards by turn 7 Or the game where I activated Golos 6 times in a turn on I wanna say turn 5 Maybe 6? I could look at the game replay.

The references to bad math are because your math was bad. That's... it? Hence why I appended a statement about lack of judgement, because I genuinely don't think people should be judged for being bad at math. It's a weird, complex system of rules that many people don't get properly taught, or if they do it doesn't get reinforced by frequent use outside of the basics. Stuff like intuitively calculating averages isn't something in the average person's skill set, which is part of why people in general are so bad at estimating probability and the like. So when you say 2 decks "beat a card by turn by a lot" when one averaged 1.5 cards per turn, and one averaged 0.7, that's actually just bad math. Which happens. It's not for internet points, it's just a statement of fact.

In relation to the Winota game and Golos game... what were the other decks doing? (This question is rhetorical, I'm not expecting you to remember an answer) If Winota is getting 27 triggers, I assume the other players are dying in fairly short order, and probably not drawing much if anything off their commanders. So divide 27 by 28 (4 players [I assume?] x 7 turns), and you still end up at under 1 card a turn, though not by much. Even if they are averaging a few cards each, that 27 cards looks a lot less impressive divided by 7 and split 4 ways. The human brain is wired to remember the highlights, and gloss over the low points. In most games where one player is "going off", the other players aren't, and they significantly outnumber the one who is. Thus, the average ends up much lower than you'd expect if you were just looking at the highest drawing player.

[onering]

If every green deck played Giant Growth, it would be considered for banning. That is why Sol Ring and Cyclonic Rift are often brought up.

Wanting to ban a card because its ubiquitous is a trash argument. Make an argument that Sol Ring presents a severe resource imbalance, and fine, I'll disagree but its a legitimate argument that's relevant to how the RC bans cards and what the card actually does. Say it should be banned because everyone plays it and I'm not going to take the argument seriously. If Magistrate is ubiquitous, then it has to also be causing problems to be ban worthy. If its ubiquitous and the effect of that is that it slows down commanders coming online a bit and makes it more difficult for Golos to go off, then it shouldn't be considered for banning.

The Feather versus Golos comparison is very apt, and actually helps cast some light at the underlying dynamics of this debate. I'm pretty sure that if enough zoom-in was done on each poster's preferences here a trend would emerge where the ones with affinity towards engine legends are more in opposition to the Magistrate. I'm one of those people. I find a pile of chaff that pops off with a particular commander a lot more exciting than something more goodstuffy with the commander playing a lesser role. Often legends offer an additive effect that helps the deck purr and the thing still can work without them, which helps explain the ratio of people just shrugging this off. Whatever Atraxa do can likely still happen without the proliferate, if at slightly decreased efficiency. Xenagod can still play fat, it'll just be half-sized and slower in getting into the red zone. Feather does nothing. This is a fact that I'm aware of, and have built around by including various protective shenanigans to keep Feather alive once she lands. This works, so well in fact that I actually brave (and win) Cockatrice pubs with this deck while my other cute heaps are far too dismal to set foot in those waters.

I have little actual personal stake in this conversation. My group unanimously proclaimed the Magistrate as gross and nobody has interest in running it. As such, my various commander-centric dreams won't get muffled by a simple two mana play that dies to removal. However, that likely makes me biased to dislike it, and I picked up on that dissonant situation with the Xantcha getting caught out more than I would have if they tried to interact with a mutate pile and it behaved strangely or whatever. I'm still very ambivalent towards the Magistrate, even with my bias acknowledged. I feel that a hatebear that poopoos on a lot of lower power decks while barely affecting the stronger ones is not particularly healthy.

I run a mix of commanders, both decks that can function without their commanders pretty well and ones that really need their commanders to work. I run Feather. In a meta where nobody runs removal and everyone runs build around commanders, Magistrate will be a serious problem. In such metas it should be house banned, and very likely will be as I doubt such playgroups want the effect. In metas that run removal, even Feather is going to be alright with magistrate in the mix. I know my Feather deck runs several pieces of spot removal that kill magistrate, including a couple of the crappy cards that really want Feather around but can still off magistrate without her, and while casting a bunch of cantrips that do nothing to dig for removal isn't what I want to do, it is still a legit path out of the hole. I'd be screwed if it got reanimated multiple times, but I'd generally be just as screwed if someone played Rule of Law or Arcane Labratory even once. Meanwhile, Magistrate is something the entire table wants dead at some point, so I may benefit from someone else removing it.

I think its going to suck when one of my build arounds gets shut down by magistrate, but I don't think that its going to be very often that one gets shut down entirely by it even in a world where its a heavily played card. I see Magistrate being a speed bump for build around commanders as much as the Goloses (Golosses? Goli? Goloshirrim?) of the world. I feel like I'm going to get as much value out of seeing particularly obnoxious build arounds like Gitrog and absurd value commanders like Wanderer and Golos get gimped, even when its someone else playing magistrate, as I am going to get headaches from my decks getting gimped.

In terms of what decks get gimped most, the build arounds (both lower powered and higher powered) will get hurt most, while the decks that simply run very strong commanders (like Golos) will still be pretty hurt (they have more options for alternative plays, but they lose a ton of value seeing their commanders be useless for a while). Its the decks that see their commander as just an extra card that barely feel it, and those that ignore their commander entirely that will laugh it off. This format was built on commanders that their decks could live without, so I'm not sure that a card that gives those decks a slight edge is a bad thing.


edit:fixed my crap formatting

[pokken]

The references to bad math are because your math was bad. That's... it? Hence why I appended a statement about lack of judgement, because I genuinely don't think people should be judged for being bad at math. It's a weird, complex system of rules that many people don't get properly taught, or if they do it doesn't get reinforced by frequent use outside of the basics. Stuff like intuitively calculating averages isn't something in the average person's skill set, which is part of why people in general are so bad at estimating probability and the like. So when you say 2 decks "beat a card by turn by a lot" when one averaged 1.5 cards per turn, and one averaged 0.7, that's actually just bad math. Which happens. It's not for internet points, it's just a statement of fact.

In relation to the Winota game and Golos game... what were the other decks doing? (This question is rhetorical, I'm not expecting you to remember an answer) If Winota is getting 27 triggers, I assume the other players are dying in fairly short order, and probably not drawing much if anything off their commanders. So divide 27 by 28 (4 players [I assume?] x 7 turns), and you still end up at under 1 card a turn, though not by much. Even if they are averaging a few cards each, that 27 cards looks a lot less impressive divided by 7 and split 4 ways. The human brain is wired to remember the highlights, and gloss over the low points. In most games where one player is "going off", the other players aren't, and they significantly outnumber the one who is. Thus, the average ends up much lower than you'd expect if you were just looking at the highest drawing player.

You missed that Ayara was cast 3 times and tapped 7 (she had lightning greaves, if you're curious), so between her and niv they beat the benchmark by 50%. I would argue that's "a lot." Combined they were still closer to 1 than not.

If the hypothetical average came in at 0.7 I would consider that a victory of my estimation skills. Lot closer to 1 than 0.

I'm having issues getting MTGO to play replays from this weekend, bleh.

I can't remember many games where someone didn't go off with their commander; and again, we're being awfully pedantic limiting the advantage to commanders to just cards drawn. The Golos game where I activated golos 7 times - sure, that's 23 cards (golos+etb+21 cards) but it also cast them for free. Winota as well. 27 triggers, but also 81 mana worth of creatures +/-.

So that's where my intuition here comes in -- in every game I play *someone* goes off with their commander, and that sets the kinda realistic floor to be in the 0.4-0.5 cards/turn area.

Niv in a 10 turn game drawing 15 cards (and I did not count all the creatures he killed with his ability) set the cards/turn to 0.375 just by himself. That's *really common*. My Ephara deck will do 10 cards a game standing on its head.

[Wallycaine]

The references to bad math are because your math was bad. That's... it? Hence why I appended a statement about lack of judgement, because I genuinely don't think people should be judged for being bad at math. It's a weird, complex system of rules that many people don't get properly taught, or if they do it doesn't get reinforced by frequent use outside of the basics. Stuff like intuitively calculating averages isn't something in the average person's skill set, which is part of why people in general are so bad at estimating probability and the like. So when you say 2 decks "beat a card by turn by a lot" when one averaged 1.5 cards per turn, and one averaged 0.7, that's actually just bad math. Which happens. It's not for internet points, it's just a statement of fact.

In relation to the Winota game and Golos game... what were the other decks doing? (This question is rhetorical, I'm not expecting you to remember an answer) If Winota is getting 27 triggers, I assume the other players are dying in fairly short order, and probably not drawing much if anything off their commanders. So divide 27 by 28 (4 players [I assume?] x 7 turns), and you still end up at under 1 card a turn, though not by much. Even if they are averaging a few cards each, that 27 cards looks a lot less impressive divided by 7 and split 4 ways. The human brain is wired to remember the highlights, and gloss over the low points. In most games where one player is "going off", the other players aren't, and they significantly outnumber the one who is. Thus, the average ends up much lower than you'd expect if you were just looking at the highest drawing player.

You missed that Ayara was cast 3 times and tapped 7 (she had lightning greaves, if you're curious), so between her and niv they beat the benchmark by 50%. I would argue that's "a lot." Combined they were still closer to 1 than not.

Even including 3 castings of a 2/3 body as "a card" each (an enormously generous assumption, as you wouldn't run a 3 mana 2/3 in any commander deck on the merits of just that, and her main ability is already accounted for in the 7 cards drawn), that still means they, combined, only beat your estimate by 25%, well below what I'd consider "a lot". Niv drew 15 cards, Ayara got "10", which adds up to 25. Between the two of them, that's 20 turns. so you're averaging 1.25 cards, not 1.5.

[pokken]

Even including 3 castings of a 2/3 body as "a card" each (an enormously generous assumption, as you wouldn't run a 3 mana 2/3 in any commander deck on the merits of just that, and her main ability is already accounted for in the 7 cards drawn), that still means they, combined, only beat your estimate by 25%, well below what I'd consider "a lot". Niv drew 15 cards, Ayara got "10", which adds up to 25. Between the two of them, that's 20 turns. so you're averaging 1.25 cards, not 1.5.

You're right, sloppy shorthanding - I just pulled Ayara out in my head since she met the benchmark.

Ayara's static ability of draining people is meaningful; I didn't try to assign any value to the life gain/drain she represented either.

In any case in *no game that I reviewed* was it anywhere close to the floor or even the hypothetical floor of 0.2 (for casting your commander twice).

And again, without attempting to assign any value to random stuff commanders do (like give trample).

[Airi]

This isn't going to stop generals from ever being cast, which I think is important to note. It's going to slow people down, but it's very unlikely going to be a hard lock in the average deck. And for the decks that will want to turn this into a hard lock? They can probably lock you out of your general in several other ways, with this being one of the least painful.

[Dunharrow]

If every green deck played Giant Growth, it would be considered for banning. That is why Sol Ring and Cyclonic Rift are often brought up.

Wanting to ban a card because its ubiquitous is a trash argument. Make an argument that Sol Ring presents a severe resource imbalance, and fine, I'll disagree but its a legitimate argument that's relevant to how the RC bans cards and what the card actually does. Say it should be banned because everyone plays it and I'm not going to take the argument seriously. If Magistrate is ubiquitous, then it has to also be causing problems to be ban worthy. If its ubiquitous and the effect of that is that it slows down commanders coming online a bit and makes it more difficult for Golos to go off, then it shouldn't be considered for banning.

I love when someone trashes my arguments by ignoring the important parts.
I didn't say that being ubiquitous was enough to get banned. I said it was enough to get cards considered for banning. Sol Ring isn't considered for banning because it's ubiquitous. It is considered because fast mana warps games and because it is in almost every deck.
A card being overly played is a fair indication of there being a problem. It is not in itself a problem.

If Magistrate is ubiquitous, it is going to be because of the way it stops commanders from coming down. There are a lot of cards that stop Golos from going off. Magistrate is the only card that stops all your opponents (but not you) from casting their commanders for only 2 mana.

Whatever, I do not think it will come to that because I think Magistrate is an unfun card that people will not play because it causes animosity.

[folding_music]

Whatever, I do not think it will come to that because I think Magistrate is an unfun card that people will not play because it causes animosity.

This doesn't seem to hold true anymore. It appears, at least in teh M:TG discussionsphere, that if you're aware of something, you will eventually be forced to play it or be sidelined while people more invested in the arms race narrow the definition of serious play. Rule zero can't help when the majority of theory on the game comes from a single peer pressure-y power band. A lot of people who won't play the Magistrate now will play it next year, alongside other staples they resent \o/

[umtiger]

I love when someone trashes my arguments by ignoring the important parts.
I didn't say that being ubiquitous was enough to get banned. I said it was enough to get cards considered for banning. Sol Ring isn't considered for banning because it's ubiquitous. It is considered because fast mana warps games and because it is in almost every deck.
A card being overly played is a fair indication of there being a problem. It is not in itself a problem.

If Magistrate is ubiquitous, it is going to be because of the way it stops commanders from coming down. There are a lot of cards that stop Golos from going off. Magistrate is the only card that stops all your opponents (but not you) from casting their commanders for only 2 mana.

The way that you presented your argument was trashed because it was not very good. Why use Giant Growth?

You're right, a card being overly played doesn't mean anything on its own (which was my point). You can infer meaning. Like, if see every UW deck play Azorius Signet, you can choose to infer that it's a problem (which is your point). And it would be the incorrect conclusion.

Please name the cards that stop Golos from going off? There are not lots (at least ones that are not narrow and unplayed). In fact, there are just not a lot of anything that actually stops commanders. Even Magistrate is just okay at it. If you really want to stop commanders, the most effective strategies are also mostly unpalatable.

I do build around my commander for some decks (like my Sram deck with 36 auras). Even going 100% all-in with my Sram deck with 36 auras, I like my chances more. I will never mind playing against Drannith Magistrate. I don't just change my opinion to suit the decks that I play or the way that I build.

w/o mulligans, you've only got ~8% of having your 1W road-block and you've got to get to 1W before me (play before me in turn order)
With my Sram deck, I always have Sram in my opener and will have 1W on turn 1 22.5% of the time.

[Airi]

Remember to keep things civil, guys.

[MrMystery314]

Like any stax piece, Drannith Magistrate can be dealt with through removal, and even if there are hard locks with cards like Knowledge Pool, those can be disrupted too. As much as it feels bad to not be able to play one's commander, unlike some combos dealing with a 1/3 creature does not require anything too specific, and can be dealt with in pretty much every color combination. I also imagine that if one is in a metagame where for some reason this isn't the case, Drannith Magistrate and similar cards will be out of contention anyway due to the social contract, and if one feels they can't escape it, then they need to make the choice if they want to deal with it (for example, a polite conversation) or find some other way to play.

[onering]

If every green deck played Giant Growth, it would be considered for banning. That is why Sol Ring and Cyclonic Rift are often brought up.

Wanting to ban a card because its ubiquitous is a trash argument. Make an argument that Sol Ring presents a severe resource imbalance, and fine, I'll disagree but its a legitimate argument that's relevant to how the RC bans cards and what the card actually does. Say it should be banned because everyone plays it and I'm not going to take the argument seriously. If Magistrate is ubiquitous, then it has to also be causing problems to be ban worthy. If its ubiquitous and the effect of that is that it slows down commanders coming online a bit and makes it more difficult for Golos to go off, then it shouldn't be considered for banning.

I love when someone trashes my arguments by ignoring the important parts.
I didn't say that being ubiquitous was enough to get banned. I said it was enough to get cards considered for banning. Sol Ring isn't considered for banning because it's ubiquitous. It is considered because fast mana warps games and because it is in almost every deck.
A card being overly played is a fair indication of there being a problem. It is not in itself a problem.

If Magistrate is ubiquitous, it is going to be because of the way it stops commanders from coming down. There are a lot of cards that stop Golos from going off. Magistrate is the only card that stops all your opponents (but not you) from casting their commanders for only 2 mana.

Whatever, I do not think it will come to that because I think Magistrate is an unfun card that people will not play because it causes animosity.

I didn't respond to the rest of your argument because I wasn't trashing the rest of your argument. I was specifically trashing the idea that being widely played is a good reason to consider a card for banning. It can make a problematic card that is already being talked about as ban worthy more likely to be banned, but it is totally insufficient on its own to consider anything for banning. I myself said that Magistrate would need to be highly played before it would have a chance at being banned, but that is because the effect itself is nowhere near toxic enough to get banned while only seeing moderate play or less. I take it a step further though and say that not only does it have to see heavy play, but in the course of that actually cause the worst case scenario problems people are worried about. It has to both be played often AND actually reliably lock out commanders for most of the game. If it sees heavy play because just slowing down some of the most annoying commanders is worth it when combined with hitting a few other strategies (like Cascade, suspend, escape, etc) then it's not getting banned, nor should it. But if it does see heavy play and in doing so regularly causes commanders to be locked out for most of the game, not only should it be banned but I'll call it now that it will be (this assumes that it is doing so even in metas with a reasonable amount of removal, reasonable meaning to me the amount you should probably be playing anyway rather than warping the format to be excessively removal heavy).

Sol Ring, btw, isn't the only piece of fast Mana that gets talked about for banning. Mana Crypt, which is far less played because of lack of availability, is usually spoken of along with it, along with occasionally Mana vault.

[Dunharrow]

I love when someone trashes my arguments by ignoring the important parts.
I didn't say that being ubiquitous was enough to get banned. I said it was enough to get cards considered for banning. Sol Ring isn't considered for banning because it's ubiquitous. It is considered because fast mana warps games and because it is in almost every deck.
A card being overly played is a fair indication of there being a problem. It is not in itself a problem.

If Magistrate is ubiquitous, it is going to be because of the way it stops commanders from coming down. There are a lot of cards that stop Golos from going off. Magistrate is the only card that stops all your opponents (but not you) from casting their commanders for only 2 mana.

The way that you presented your argument was trashed because it was not very good. Why use Giant Growth?

You're right, a card being overly played doesn't mean anything on its own (which was my point). You can infer meaning. Like, if see every UW deck play Azorius Signet, you can choose to infer that it's a problem (which is your point). And it would be the incorrect conclusion.

Please name the cards that stop Golos from going off? There are not lots (at least ones that are not narrow and unplayed). In fact, there are just not a lot of anything that actually stops commanders. Even Magistrate is just okay at it. If you really want to stop commanders, the most effective strategies are also mostly unpalatable.

I do build around my commander for some decks (like my Sram deck with 36 auras). Even going 100% all-in with my Sram deck with 36 auras, I like my chances more. I will never mind playing against Drannith Magistrate. I don't just change my opinion to suit the decks that I play or the way that I build.

w/o mulligans, you've only got ~8% of having your 1W road-block and you've got to get to 1W before me (play before me in turn order)
With my Sram deck, I always have Sram in my opener and will have 1W on turn 1 22.5% of the time.

Cards that deal with Golos:
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Pithing Needle
Sorcerous Spyglass
Collector Ouphe
Cursed Totem
Damping Matrix
Null Rod
Phyrexian Revoker

I get your point about Giant Growth, except I think you are being too strict in your interpretation of 'considered for banning'. Is Command Tower considered for banning? No. Cyclonic Rift? Often. Obviously, being played a lot is not enough to get considered alone.
But if Magistrate... or say Blood Moon... were to become a must-play card, I would expect real discussion around it to take place.
And obviously it is already starting.

[onering]

Considered for banning by whom? Some randoms on the internet, or the RC? Because Cyclonic Rift often gets brought up by people complaining on the internet, but it doesn't meet any of the ban criteria. It gets brought up because it's widely played, and it's strong, but that doesn't mean those arguments deserve to be taken seriously.

[pokken]

And this is why I'm fairly confident you're wrong: because you're bad at math

Saying someone's math is bad is different than saying they're bad at math. One is needlessly mean and condescending phrasing and one is not.

Hope that is useful to you and many others who seem inclined to this kind of aggro.

Sorry if I'm sensitive or whatever I just wanted to get that down after the hubbub because I realized I'd forgotten to say it and it's important.

[umtiger]

Cards that deal with Golos:
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Pithing Needle
Sorcerous Spyglass
Collector Ouphe
Cursed Totem
Damping Matrix
Null Rod
Phyrexian Revoker

I get your point about Giant Growth, except I think you are being too strict in your interpretation of 'considered for banning'. Is Command Tower considered for banning? No. Cyclonic Rift? Often. Obviously, being played a lot is not enough to get considered alone.
But if Magistrate... or say Blood Moon... were to become a must-play card, I would expect real discussion around it to take place.
And obviously it is already starting.

None of the cards you listed deal with Golos. At least, not the more important part, the ETB trigger. If you want to slow down the 2wurbrg ability, one could remove Golos before untap. Untapping with Golos is potentially game-ending, but removing Golos just provides another opportunity to build value. You run into the same problem with generals like Maelstrom Wanderer. The damage is in the cast.

Now, you're going back on your own point. Just be more precise with what you type. But yes, I agree with the point that I believe you want to make. That auto-include cards aren't okay when they are "annoying" (e.g. Command Tower vs Cyclonic Rift). However, people who complain about Cyclonic Rift are another type of people...

I don't see how comparing Magistrate to Blood Moon helps your side of the argument at all? Blood Moon is obviously not ban-worthy, even if every red deck had it. I also play 5-color, so I am once again, anti-ban and have no salt on a card that is designed to hose my personal favorite deck.

I'm not sure what you mean by "already starting." This is a very small corner of the internet. And no one anywhere has been playing EDH in public or even has Ikoria in hand to have a meaningful complaint against Magistrate yet. To think, all of the crazy stuff in Ikoria and there's 5 pages on a hate bear.

[DirkGently]

None of the cards you listed deal with Golos. At least, not the more important part, the ETB trigger. If you want to slow down the 2wurbrg ability, one could remove Golos before untap. Untapping with Golos is potentially game-ending, but removing Golos just provides another opportunity to build value. You run into the same problem with generals like Maelstrom Wanderer. The damage is in the cast.

To be fair, at least with Golos if you counterspell him, he doesn't get any value - same can't be said for MW unless you time stop or something.

[Dunharrow]

Golos' ETB is the problem? Do you know how many effects get lands into play? Do you know how many effects hate on lands? Or hate on ETB or searching the library?


Also, that small part of the internet was also right about Paradox Engine.
This discussion wouldn't be happening if people didn't think Magistrate was banworthy. The internet may only represent a tiny fraction of players, but if everyone plays Magistrate it won't just be a small group on the internet.

[Airi]

Golos' ETB is the problem? Do you know how many effects get lands into play? Do you know how many effects hate on lands? Or hate on ETB or searching the library?

It's a piece of the problem for the overall card, not the singular issue with Golos. Searching for any land is pretty damn strong, and he'd be a knock out 5c general with just that.

This discussion wouldn't be happening if people didn't think Magistrate was banworthy. The internet may only represent a tiny fraction of players, but if everyone plays Magistrate it won't just be a small group on the internet.

While true, that does not mean it's going to see Sol Ring levels of play. It'll probably see a similar level of play to most other hatebears: people will slot it in where it's appropriate, or as a slight power bump to lower powered color combinations/commanders. People thinking it should be banned does not mean it is banworthy, almost every card that is on the banlist has been hotly debated either here or on this forum's predecessor at some point.

[pokken]

Golos' ETB is the problem? Do you know how many effects get lands into play? Do you know how many effects hate on lands? Or hate on ETB or searching the library?

It's a piece of the problem for the overall card, not the singular issue with Golos. Searching for any land is pretty damn strong, and he'd be a knock out 5c general with just that.

I don't think that golos would see a tenth of the play he sees if he wasn't a mana sink. 5 mana for a tapped land is a really poor rate (see Pir's Whim for the kinda benchmark for that ability).

He might still be the choice for a 5c lands deck but I think he'd be a lot worse than many 3 color options and much worse than any Thrasios partner pair for 4c.

But, I do think he'd be vastly more interesting if he didn't have the mana sink. Just....waaaaaay worse.

The way the 5c lands version of his deck just can play 30 ramp spells and still win, it's like Maelstrom wanderer and crystal shard on the same card practically. Bleh.

[Airi]

I don't think that golos would see a tenth of the play he sees if he wasn't a mana sink. 5 mana for a tapped land is a really poor rate (see Pir's Whim for the kinda benchmark for that ability).

He might still be the choice for a 5c lands deck but I think he'd be a lot worse than many 3 color options and much worse than any Thrasios partner pair for 4c.

But, I do think he'd be vastly more interesting if he didn't have the mana sink. Just....waaaaaay worse.

The way the 5c lands version of his deck just can play 30 ramp spells and still win, it's like Maelstrom wanderer and crystal shard on the same card practically. Bleh.

I'm definitely not saying he'd be nearly the problem he is now, but he'd still be a pretty damn decent figurehead to the decks that just don't care about needing to use their general. It is a portion of what makes his card an issue, because he does all the things. Couldn't even have the decency to only search for basics.

[toctheyounger]

Dunharrow wrote: ↑7 hours ago
This discussion wouldn't be happening if people didn't think Magistrate was banworthy. The internet may only represent a tiny fraction of players, but if everyone plays Magistrate it won't just be a small group on the internet.
While true, that does not mean it's going to see Sol Ring levels of play. It'll probably see a similar level of play to most other hatebears: people will slot it in where it's appropriate, or as a slight power bump to lower powered color combinations/commanders. People thinking it should be banned does not mean it is banworthy, almost every card that is on the banlist has been hotly debated either here or on this forum's predecessor at some point.

I just don't see that it's problematic enough to justify the concern. It's easily removed, and it there's still pretty problematic commanders it doesn't even hold a candle to. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician says 'and what?' to Drannith Magistrate. It also doesn't stop 'put into play' cards like Tooth and Nail, mass reanimation like Living Death or even storm decks.

At best, it's going to be an underling to superior hatebears like Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I'm still going to play it myself, but not because it's going to be ubiquitously oppressive as suggested. It's an early drop that gives a bulky deck (hey there Bruna, the Fading Light) time to find it's feet early game or post-wipe, and I can reanimate it to deal with problematic commanders as needed. Even in that scenario though, it's going to be significantly less of a lock than some of the pieces I already run, like Magus of the Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle and Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

I honestly think if you're expecting Magistrate to do any more than provide a hurdle to be jumped/target to bait removal you're going to be disappointed. Hell, even within the Ikoria expansion itself (precons excluded) there are a LOT of cards that answer it:

• Back for More
• Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor
• Blood Curdle
• Channeled Force
• Charge of the Forever-Beast
• Clash of Titans
• Dire Tactics
• Dirge Bat
• Easy Prey
• Extinction Event
• Fire Prophecy
• Flame Spill
• Go for Blood
• Heartless Act
• Kogla, the Titan Ape
• Mutual Destruction
• Mystic Subdual
• Mythos of Nethroi
• Mythos of Snapdax
• Mythos of Vadrok
• Ruinous Ultimatum
• Snapdax, Apex of the Hunt

I can recognise that a lot of these won't see play in eternal formats, but many will. I guess this just illustrates that the magistrate is a hurdle to overcome, not a format-breaking hate piece. Most people who play in this format will see it as a blip, and if your deck really is turned off by this card your deck already had major problems. I'll acknowledge that if you can't remove it, your game probably won't be fun, but there really should not be a large number of scenarios where one person in 3 or more at a table doesn't have a single piece of removal to get rid of it.