[SCD] Drannith Magistrate

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
I just don't see that it's problematic enough to justify the concern. It's easily removed, and it there's still pretty problematic commanders it doesn't even hold a candle to. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician says 'and what?' to Drannith Magistrate. It also doesn't stop 'put into play' cards like Tooth and Nail, mass reanimation like Living Death or even storm decks.
I agree! And I think you may have quoted the wrong person. >.>

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

I haven't read the posts in this thread, but my 2 cents worth is that it is and will be an extremely underrated and more impactful card than people will give it credit for.
People initial reactions are probably going to be "oh well its just a 1/3 easily killed card, no problems".
But requiring an answer for a card is not nothing. Not all opponents are going to be opposed to it, so it might be that just you need that answer because guess what, your whole deck revolves around your commander.
I mean it prevents the number one reason you are playing this format in the first place, access to your commander, which 99% of the time you've built around. OK, multiple player is the other reason, but you know what I mean.

Anyway I don't think on the whole its too problematic for the format as far a sh*ty hosers, but it will be an underrated effect and card in general.
Much like Cursed Totem and Grafdigger's Cage are underrated by the format as a whole, but the cEDH community are well aware of the impact on games these have.
Its easy to think that it has a narrow impact on the game, but the reality is that it going to 99% always have an effect on the game, unless it comes down so late that your opponents already have their commanders out, and no removal for them is in the cards.
But hosers are hosers, forcing finding removal is part of the game. Many a time Containment Priest has stopped my plans and I have been "happy" to have to find an answer for it.

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Airi wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
I just don't see that it's problematic enough to justify the concern. It's easily removed, and it there's still pretty problematic commanders it doesn't even hold a candle to. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician says 'and what?' to Drannith Magistrate. It also doesn't stop 'put into play' cards like Tooth and Nail, mass reanimation like Living Death or even storm decks.
I agree! And I think you may have quoted the wrong person. >.>
Ha, so I did. My bad, I made a mess of things there.

I stand by my point though (even though my point was directed at the wrong person), card isn't that bad.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I haven't read the posts in this thread, but my 2 cents worth is that it is and will be an extremely underrated and more impactful card than people will give it credit for.
People initial reactions are probably going to be "oh well its just a 1/3 easily killed card, no problems".
But requiring an answer for a card is not nothing. Not all opponents are going to be opposed to it, so it might be that just you need that answer because guess what, your whole deck revolves around your commander.
I mean it prevents the number one reason you are playing this format in the first place, access to your commander, which 99% of the time you've built around. OK, multiple player is the other reason, but you know what I mean.

Anyway I don't think on the whole its too problematic for the format as far a sh*ty hosers, but it will be an underrated effect and card in general.
Much like Cursed Totem and Grafdigger's Cage are underrated by the format as a whole, but the cEDH community are well aware of the impact on games these have.
Its easy to think that it has a narrow impact on the game, but the reality is that it going to 99% always have an effect on the game, unless it comes down so late that your opponents already have their commanders out, and no removal for them is in the cards.
But hosers are hosers, forcing finding removal is part of the game. Many a time Containment Priest has stopped my plans and I have been "happy" to have to find an answer for it.
I think it's important to remember that those two propositions are not mutually exclusive. It can have a significant effect on the game... but also die easily enough to removal that it won't lock anyone out permanently. I think my position is that typically it'll delay people from hitting their generals right on curve, which will have a significant impact on play for many decks. But they will still eventually get to play their generals, maybe a turn or two later than they wanted, or after having had to skip a ramp spell to kill the dude. In that, I think it's the right style of hatebear, and definitely not something worthy of being banned.

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Airi wrote:
3 years ago
Dunharrow wrote: ↑7 hours ago
This discussion wouldn't be happening if people didn't think Magistrate was banworthy. The internet may only represent a tiny fraction of players, but if everyone plays Magistrate it won't just be a small group on the internet.
While true, that does not mean it's going to see Sol Ring levels of play. It'll probably see a similar level of play to most other hatebears: people will slot it in where it's appropriate, or as a slight power bump to lower powered color combinations/commanders. People thinking it should be banned does not mean it is banworthy, almost every card that is on the banlist has been hotly debated either here or on this forum's predecessor at some point.
I just don't see that it's problematic enough to justify the concern. It's easily removed, and it there's still pretty problematic commanders it doesn't even hold a candle to. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician says 'and what?' to Drannith Magistrate. It also doesn't stop 'put into play' cards like Tooth and Nail, mass reanimation like Living Death or even storm decks.

At best, it's going to be an underling to superior hatebears like Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I'm still going to play it myself, but not because it's going to be ubiquitously oppressive as suggested. It's an early drop that gives a bulky deck (hey there Bruna, the Fading Light) time to find it's feet early game or post-wipe, and I can reanimate it to deal with problematic commanders as needed. Even in that scenario though, it's going to be significantly less of a lock than some of the pieces I already run, like Magus of the Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle and Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

I honestly think if you're expecting Magistrate to do any more than provide a hurdle to be jumped/target to bait removal you're going to be disappointed. Hell, even within the Ikoria expansion itself (precons excluded) there are a LOT of cards that answer it:

I can recognise that a lot of these won't see play in eternal formats, but many will. I guess this just illustrates that the magistrate is a hurdle to overcome, not a format-breaking hate piece. Most people who play in this format will see it as a blip, and if your deck really is turned off by this card your deck already had major problems. I'll acknowledge that if you can't remove it, your game probably won't be fun, but there really should not be a large number of scenarios where one person in 3 or more at a table doesn't have a single piece of removal to get rid of it.
Toc - I don't think it will get banned because I do not think it will be widely played. But some people are talking about putting it into every white deck. If this becomes an auto-include, I think it will damage the format. I am sure a table can answer one every game. I am less sure about a table answering 3 of them every game.

PoK was tutored every game. I don't see Magistrate being tutored every game, but then again it very well could be. I remember tutoring Linvala, Keeper of Silence every time I played a general with an activated ability. Would you not tutor Magistrate every time you played against Rakdos, Lord of Riots? Or any other deck built around the commander?

I think Magistrate aligns poorly with the structure of commander. But this will only be a problem if it becomes an auto-include, a card people aggressively tutor for and protect from removal.
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

It may well be ran in every white deck, but that won't mean there will be 3 every game, because white is the weakest color in commander and has few ways to tutor for it on its own and is very weak in draw. Other colors will let it draw and tutor, but that means that not all decks capable of running it will be capable of getting it when needed. Prophet was in UG, the two best colors and one of the most popular color combos along with UGx. It not only was an auto include there, but people actually started playing UGx even more because of Prophet. For 3 players at a table to be landing magistrates each game, not only will it need to be an auto include in white, it's going to have to make white be more played.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
Toc - I don't think it will get banned because I do not think it will be widely played. But some people are talking about putting it into every white deck. If this becomes an auto-include, I think it will damage the format. I am sure a table can answer one every game. I am less sure about a table answering 3 of them every game.

PoK was tutored every game. I don't see Magistrate being tutored every game, but then again it very well could be. I remember tutoring Linvala, Keeper of Silence every time I played a general with an activated ability. Would you not tutor Magistrate every time you played against Rakdos, Lord of Riots? Or any other deck built around the commander?

I think Magistrate aligns poorly with the structure of commander. But this will only be a problem if it becomes an auto-include, a card people aggressively tutor for and protect from removal.
I don't necessarily think it will be ubiquitous. As onering mentions, white is generally considered the weakest colour in the format, and whether or not that's accurate at any given table (I have my own thoughts about it that are irrelevant to this discussion), it takes some care and forethought to build in mono white, or even w/x a lot of the time. There's a lot of themes and archetypes that this guy just doesn't fit in. I'll run him because he's on tribe and allows my commander the space it needs. Other than that I can see it in Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, maybe Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or the new human precons. Basically, in the places where hatebears are already relevant and add something by merit of inclusion. You're not going to see it in Kaalia of the Vast or Selvala, Explorer Returned elfball, Brago, King Eternal blink.dec. Hell, even something as Timmy as Avacyn, Angel of Hope doesn't necessarily need it.

I think people will try to add it anywhere they can, but I definitely don't think it will carry its weight in every single w/x+ deck purely by merit of inclusion, synergy with the rest of the 99 be damned.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

I think Drannith Magistrate will be played like most hatebears, both in deckbuilding and impact after it resolves. The decks that add it do either because it impact their metagame in a favorable way or because it's on theme (eg. wizard tribal control). Once it resolves, it probably has the same impact as Hushbringer in most groups where hushbringer sees play. It builds political alliances between players that are equally impacted, for example the Syr Konrad, the Grim and Meren of Clan Nel Toth players would have a shared interest in removing the hushbringer, but a Kruphix, God of Horizons player would have interest in protecting it. The main difference with magistrate is that most players that depend on their own commander will have incentive to remove it unless it's demonstrably saving the table, for example by keeping Zada, Hedron Grinder from storming off or Thrasios, Triton Hero from having a sink for his infinite mana.

Like most hatebears, it delays most decks at low mana investment but generates no direct CA. I do believe it creates virtual CA+tempo by delaying/preventing commanders but short of a deck dedicated to resolving and protecting the magistrate, I don't think it will be over centralizing. The closest that I could see for it being centralizing would be in something like Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle+hatebears+eggs(which I may build now that I think about it), but I doubt that's going to be common.

I disagree with the comparison to Prophet of Kruphix based on to the scale of the average advantage. PoK was effectively a massive tempo swing that could generate game-winning opportunities quickly while also helping protect itself via untapped mana. As long as the players all had creatures or instants, PoK because a focal point for killing/stealing. The tempo swing from magistrate starts smaller, but can be increase if the opponents generate most of their CA or tempo from the commander itself. I agree that this is more back-breaking to decks with engine-type commanders like Nin, Feather, Zada, or Chulane (and honestly about 75% of my decks due to silly themes or self restriction). However, even against those decks I don't think the quantity of CA+tempo is comparable. If it sticks around for 1 full turn cycle and stops three commanders that generate around 2 CA/turn, then maybe the tempo swing is comparable to PoK at around -6 CA for your opponents. But then the Nin, Chulane and Najeela players have made a pact to end your life.

However, due to the asymmetric nature of the effect it's likely that most groups (extrapolating from my own) will remove it as soon as they need their commander. I could see theft effects being used instead, but it's still a 3v1 situation with removal vs protection. I don't think it's anywhere near ban-able.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

So post-mortem on this one---

Drannith Magistrate is in 10% of white decks which super high. But how is it out there in the wilds? I haven't gotten to play for a while and my initial impressions online were that it was bonkers, but are people seeing this a lot?

(10% of 100,000 decks is more played than Paradox Engine at its peak which is pretty unreal penetration for a new card, but PE was close to 10% of all decks not just white decks)

Could easily be super overrepresented because it's a huge player in CEDH. I haven't heard much complaining from my casual buddies at all.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Don't think I've seen anyone play it yet. Ofc I haven't been playing as much over the past year as I used to.
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

I've seen it, not very often but it's out there. It's never been a problem, and while I know I've played against it a half dozen times I can't actually remember the circumstances as it only had a mild impact on the game at best.

EDHrec is not an accurate depiction of the meta and as time goes on I think it gets even more distorted by people posting lists they never actually build and cEDH being overrepresented on it. I used to take it with a grain of salt but now I just reject it as useless in terms of statistics.

Magistrate is a fine card for cEDH, it's better there because tempo is more important, and it doesn't negatively impact that sub format.

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