"From outside the game" -- But not a 'Wish'

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I kinda like my 3 wishes idea. It's small enough that it'd probably fit just fine into a normal deck box, wouldn't take much time to make, and would be restrictive enough that the wishes wouldn't be THAT flexible or powerful. You're probably not chucking in nothing but silver bullets, there's just not enough chambers in that gun to answer very many different things.
Interestingly, this is exactly my group's rule; we kind of liked the three-wish idea.

Wishes are so weak at three cards that we don't actually play them anymore, though. For the record, my Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale deck had Burning Wish and:

Open the Vaults (to recover from mass equipment destruction)
Cathartic Reunion (as an out for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge)
Last Chance (for the lulz)

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
Interestingly, this is exactly my group's rule; we kind of liked the three-wish idea.

Wishes are so weak at three cards that we don't actually play them anymore, though. For the record, my Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale deck had Burning Wish and:

Open the Vaults (to recover from mass equipment destruction)
Cathartic Reunion (as an out for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge)
Last Chance (for the lulz)
See, I like being able to run a really narrow wincon like last chance in the board. Last chance is the sort of card that's going to be really miserable and dead in your hand a lot if you're mainboarding it. But if you're wishboarding it, that's a lot less commitment, and every once in a while you'll get a sweet, memorable win.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
But if you're wishboarding it, that's a lot less commitment, and every once in a while you'll get a sweet, memorable win.
When I was debating whether wishes should be allowed on the official forums, this was a stroke against instead of a desirable feature.

A lot of the anti-wish crowd was really galled at the idea that cornercase cards could be put in your board. It removes an opportunity cost, etc. etc. etc.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
When I was debating whether wishes should be allowed on the official forums, this was a stroke against instead of a desirable feature.

A lot of the anti-wish crowd was really galled at the idea that cornercase cards could be put in your board. It removes an opportunity cost, etc. etc. etc.
Well, it kind of does. Needing to pay for the wish on top of the spell obviously makes the wish worse than simply having the spell you searched for in your deck. So you're paying for the flexibility. If you had an unlimited wishboard - i.e. wish "classic" - then it would have (almost) no opportunity to cost to include narrow answers. But if you had a 1-card wishboard then you'd basically just being playing that card but worse, so the opportunity cost would be the same as any other card and more. I think it's just about finding the right balance. Maybe 3 is too few, idk, but I think it's gotta be less than 10. Most standard/modern sideboards there's probably only like, idk, 4-8 options usually? So that's kind of a reasonable starting place to think about it. 3 I think is good just because (1) conservatism when making a change like this diminishes the chance people will get all butthurt about it, and (2) the flavor of "3 wishes" is just nice.

There's a lot of pretty busted stuff in the format that's really hard to handle without a good answer, and often means that your only answer is just to keep removing their commander and it gets really tedious. Having a wishboard for a few answers that are too narrow to include in your deck but nice to have access to in a pinch - stuff like grafdigger's cage and damping sphere - alongside maybe a decent fallback spell so you don't end up with a dead card - I think would improve the format's ability to self-regulate.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'm just so damn glad it's never gonna happen I can't express it
"Silver bullets are the only thing to wish for" is is rife with fallacies and frankly is a cEDH player's argument. By-and-large, opponents of wishing in commander tend to be cEDH players who don't want their games of solitaire interrupted. cEDH players prefer as few variables as possible, thus their affinity for tutors and distaste for wishes.
Commander should be recognized as either sanctioned or unsanctioned so that "outside the game" effects will function as they do in all other formats, according to Wizard's standing rule on wishing:

"In a sanctioned event, a card that's "outside the game" is one that's in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection."

EDIT: Man I really love the three wishes idea. It's flavorful and feels natural, classic, and "grass roots"..
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

I'm curious: outside of silver bullets and narrow wincons, what would you put in a wishboard that you wouldn't just put in your main deck instead? I suppose that stocking it with generic goodstuff could be ok, at least for the grab anything wishes in black, but I can't imagine why it would be any more attractive than running diabolic tutor, especially considering that the cards in your deck are going to be better than the ones in the wishboard. Are people really that stoked on Masterminds Acquisition?

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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'm just so damn glad it's never gonna happen I can't express it
"Silver bullets are the only thing to wish for" is is rife with fallacies and frankly is a cEDH player's argument. By-and-large, opponents of wishing in commander tend to be cEDH players who don't want their games of solitaire interrupted. cEDH players prefer as few variables as possible, thus their affinity for tutors and distaste for wishes.
Where is your evidence for these claims? Everything you said there sounds made up.

What I don't want is anti-climactic, lame developments in games just because someone wished for their narrow silver bullet answer. Wishes reward lazy deckbuilding.

But when it comes the Companion mechanic as a whole, I'm fine with it being legal, as most of the cards' deck restrictions are pretty strict.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Well, it kind of does.
I mean, demonstrably opportunity costs are lower for wishboards of a size greater than one.

But, I guess I don't see that as a problem.
Having a wishboard for a few answers that are too narrow to include in your deck but nice to have access to in a pinch - stuff like grafdigger's cage and damping sphere - alongside maybe a decent fallback spell so you don't end up with a dead card - I think would improve the format's ability to self-regulate.
One of the things that kind of came up in the debate on the official forums is that some of the card types (particularly artifacts or enchantments) were really hard to reasonably wish up. Like, you could put a Grafdiggers in your wishboard, and retrieve it with Golden Wish, Mastermind's Acquisition or Death Wish (or, I guess, Granted, from Fae of Wishes). Realistically, none of those are efficient enough to play for an answer like Grafdigger's Cage.



Actually, this brings up an interesting question to me.

Will we be able to Wish for Companions using Living Wish? Since they're outside the game in some way that's acceptable, can we wish for one?

Asked Sheldon on Twitter, answer pending.

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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'm just so damn glad it's never gonna happen I can't express it
"Silver bullets are the only thing to wish for" is is rife with fallacies and frankly is a cEDH player's argument. By-and-large, opponents of wishing in commander tend to be cEDH players who don't want their games of solitaire interrupted. cEDH players prefer as few variables as possible, thus their affinity for tutors and distaste for wishes.
Where is your evidence for these claims? Everything you said there sounds made up.

What I don't want is anti-climactic, lame developments in games just because someone wished for their narrow silver bullet answer. Wishes reward lazy deckbuilding.

But when it comes the Companion mechanic as a whole, I'm fine with it being legal, as most of the cards' deck restrictions are pretty strict.
The arguments in this thread against Wishes are tired and have already been destroyed in the Wish thread. And they'll be thoroughly nuked once I update the OP with Companions and some other things.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
Legend wrote:
4 years ago

"Silver bullets are the only thing to wish for" is is rife with fallacies and frankly is a cEDH player's argument. By-and-large, opponents of wishing in commander tend to be cEDH players who don't want their games of solitaire interrupted. cEDH players prefer as few variables as possible, thus their affinity for tutors and distaste for wishes.
Where is your evidence for these claims? Everything you said there sounds made up.

What I don't want is anti-climactic, lame developments in games just because someone wished for their narrow silver bullet answer. Wishes reward lazy deckbuilding.

But when it comes the Companion mechanic as a whole, I'm fine with it being legal, as most of the cards' deck restrictions are pretty strict.
The arguments in this thread against Wishes are tired and have already been destroyed in the Wish thread. And they'll be thoroughly nuked once I update the OP with Companions and some other things.
Actually, they weren't. You just declared that they were.
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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

Ah yes, the classic debate argument of "I have declared victory, and it has been made so." As a cEDH player, I'd certainly love to try wishboards out, although I personally don't see it adding much from that perspective besides "tutor for the land destruction that hits my most troublesome opponent". Wishes, at least in a competitive setting, are liable to make main decks simultaneously less interaction-heavy (if your silver bullets are more effective at dealing with specific issues, why play weaker equivalents) and more interaction-heavy (with the pervasive threat of late-game nastiness when mana costs become less of an issue). While that's somewhat paradoxical, the likely outcome is that everyone somewhat dreads the possibility of even more sudden surprises, or perhaps some interesting decks that eschew main-deck win conditions in favor for a heavy interaction and stax suite, which I think would be very interesting to play if a bit of a slog. This is something like Unstable commanders I'd love to test for a few months without having to commit. And in a more casual setting, I'm not sure what people would be wishing for that they'd rather not put in their main decks; I imagine many casual players who may not be used to sideboards in other formats coming to the realization that they can put cards specifically to target certain decks in the inevitability they do show up, and these cards will probably create unfun play experiences. I know I don't want to be in the position where I haven't caught onto the new rule yet and all my buddies have discovered "1R: pick an opponent and knock them out".

Despite that, I do think the best suggestion is just to try it out and see what happens. While a likely outcome is that the only players who really utilize their wishboard are ones who want silver bullets to take out specific decks they may play against (which I personally think is a fair strategy, even if it may rub some people the wrong way), more diversity is never a bad thing. There is no question that wishes run counter to the philosophy taken as standard so far in the format, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If this were to be implemented, for consistency's sake a 15 card sideboard seems reasonable. People who want to use it to help their decks tell a story are free to do so, people who want to put in all the silver bullets they can may do so, and people who decide that wishes are inefficient are under no obligation to do anything with them. My gut tells me that should wishes be trialed, they wouldn't be permanently added to the format, whether because of gameplay impacts or simply because of these sorts of debates that are liable to span pages without a succinct resolution, but that isn't terribly relevant. I don't particularly care if wishes are not implemented, but if they are, it should obviously be on a probationary basis.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

There's like 732 things on the list ahead of wishes I'd like to try out personally :P

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago

Where is your evidence for these claims? Everything you said there sounds made up.

What I don't want is anti-climactic, lame developments in games just because someone wished for their narrow silver bullet answer. Wishes reward lazy deckbuilding.

But when it comes the Companion mechanic as a whole, I'm fine with it being legal, as most of the cards' deck restrictions are pretty strict.
The arguments in this thread against Wishes are tired and have already been destroyed in the Wish thread. And they'll be thoroughly nuked once I update the OP with Companions and some other things.
Actually, they weren't. You just declared that they were.

He's a student of the Ben Shapiro school of rhetoric.

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
What I don't want is anti-climactic, lame developments in games just because someone wished for their narrow silver bullet answer. Wishes reward lazy deckbuilding.
This doesn't make any sense. Bullets, no matter how silver, don't end games by themselves. If somebody is Wishing for a Grafdigger's Cage it's to interact with the rest of the table and not die. That's not anti-climactic or lame.

As for rewarding lazy deckbuilding, I disagree. I think the truly lazy deckbuilding is the linear decks that attempt to vomit their game plan into play in an attempt to go off without caring about what anyone else is doing beyond hoping to dodge interaction. I'd rather play a game in which everyone Wished for some interaction to keep an interesting game going than a game in which the Purphoros deck did its thing and everyone died on turn 6 because nobody drew their singleton Revoke Existence.
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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

This doesn't make any sense. Bullets, no matter how silver, don't end games by themselves. If somebody is Wishing for a Grafdigger's Cage it's to interact with the rest of the table and not die. That's not anti-climactic or lame.
This, exactly. Even with wishes taken out of the equation, people are unreasonably angry at players who play things like board wipes to stay alive when everyone else would kill them the following turn. Everything is fair game when you're trying to play your deck and win, but as soon as someone else tries to do the same thing, they are public enemy #1 and deserve the same annihilation which would drive you insane if targeted at you. An argument against wishes should not be "that player doesn't have the common courtesy to just lose already because I don't like their deck and I think they are in a losing position, allowing wishes lets them try to have fun by not getting pummeled by turn 6, but as that means I'm having less fun that's a bad thing." (Apologies for the hyperbole.) If that's the mindset you're breeding, that toxicity is going to inevitably exorcise everyone from your play environment who holds different opinions.
I'd rather play a game in which everyone Wished for some interaction to keep an interesting game going than a game in which the Purphoros deck did its thing and everyone died on turn 6 because nobody drew their singleton Revoke Existence.
It's the same principle here. The Purphoros player is happy because they did their thing, they won, and they played what they believe is "fair" EDH; people daring to try and not lose is people trying to ruin their fun. I'm biased because I play EDH mainly on Untap, where people tend to be a bit holier-than-thou, but if your ideal EDH experience is your deck going off and doing its thing without any opposition, why not just play Solitaire?

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

MrMystery314 wrote:
4 years ago
This doesn't make any sense. Bullets, no matter how silver, don't end games by themselves. If somebody is Wishing for a Grafdigger's Cage it's to interact with the rest of the table and not die. That's not anti-climactic or lame.
This, exactly. Even with wishes taken out of the equation, people are unreasonably angry at players who play things like board wipes to stay alive when everyone else would kill them the following turn. Everything is fair game when you're trying to play your deck and win, but as soon as someone else tries to do the same thing, they are public enemy #1 and deserve the same annihilation which would drive you insane if targeted at you. An argument against wishes should not be "that player doesn't have the common courtesy to just lose already because I don't like their deck and I think they are in a losing position, allowing wishes lets them try to have fun by not getting pummeled by turn 6, but as that means I'm having less fun that's a bad thing." (Apologies for the hyperbole.) If that's the mindset you're breeding, that toxicity is going to inevitably exorcise everyone from your play environment who holds different opinions.
I'd rather play a game in which everyone Wished for some interaction to keep an interesting game going than a game in which the Purphoros deck did its thing and everyone died on turn 6 because nobody drew their singleton Revoke Existence.
It's the same principle here. The Purphoros player is happy because they did their thing, they won, and they played what they believe is "fair" EDH; people daring to try and not lose is people trying to ruin their fun. I'm biased because I play EDH mainly on Untap, where people tend to be a bit holier-than-thou, but if your ideal EDH experience is your deck going off and doing its thing without any opposition, why not just play Solitaire?
I don't think I've ever seen anyone get salty because someone wrathed to stay alive.

I certainly wouldn't have an issue with someone wishing for a narrow piece of spot removal. I'd be delighted to see someone wish for Teferis Protection, but even just having a suite of things like Revoke existence, just extra removal that doesn't make the cut for main deck but is there if you draw the wish, is nothing. Personally, I'd usually run a relevant tutor instead, but at least they always put it into your hand instead to the top of the library. I can't imagine getting mad that someone used burning wish to grab revoke existence in a boros deck. I can't speak for everyone, and clearly some posters here would have a problem with it, but if that was the main argument against them I'd be on the wish bandwagon.

The silver bullets that would be problematic are the more brutal color hate cards. Tsunami is a poster child for this, not because it's necessarily the worst thing that can be wished out, but because it checks all the boxes. It's a brutal color hoser that you would never main deck unless your in a heavy blue meta. It's a card that was designed to punish metas that go too far into one color, to police a format that has become unbalanced, and this blunt instrument comes with the drawback of being useless against anything else. Being able to stick it in the wishboard and wish for it removes the opportunity cost. You can run a number of these powerful, narrow hate spells to round out a wish board, and you'll never have to draw them in games where they're useless. They're silver bullets not against problem cards, they're silver bullets against players.

Thats the sort of thing that I think makes them problematic, while accessing 2nd rate answers or narrow answers would be a positive. I think Dirk's 3 wishes idea adds enough opportunity cost to these narrow hate cards that you can't just run 5-8 or them to round out your wish board, you have to think harder about it and only run the ones your likely to need, if any at all.

I still can't imagine what, other than silver bullets of either type or combo pieces (lattice for Karn) people want to put in a wishboard that they wouldn't just rather put in the deck instead of the wish. The point of wishes, and tutors is optionality, and optionality is best leveraged when there's a meaningful difference between the choices. That tends to lead to silver bullets and wincons. Otherwise, if it's just goodstuff, your generally going to zero in on the best option available, and thus generally better off just running it instead of paying the wish tax.

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
Tsunami is a poster child for this, not because it's necessarily the worst thing that can be wished out, but because it checks all the boxes.
I'd argue that a player that plays Tsunami is a player I don't want to play with full stop, regardless if they put it in their mainboard or Wishboard. That's what the social contract is for. I'm pretty sure the majority of players don't enjoy MLD, so I have a hard time believing that if Wishes were legal suddenly everyone is packing nothing but Tsunami variants.

I would expect most Wishboards to end up being something along the lines of: Obviously that's just my opinion but I simply refuse to accept that the only reason people don't play Tsunami right now is because sometimes it's a dead card. I've heard that the secret to EDH is to not break it. So give us the chance to prove we can play Wishes responsibly.
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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
MRHblue wrote:
4 years ago
It seems pretty obvious the RC wants to make a change to Rule 11 to make sure the big new splashy things gets played in Commander. I am pretty disappointed about that because of how strongly I agreed with the stance on Wishes. And on top of that Wishes still won't work? Seems like a pretty bad take, maybe they come around when they hear more strong feedback?
So you don't like wishes working, but you think them continuing to have wishes not work is a bad take?Right...
Thats literally not what I said. I don't want wishes to work because they bring cards in from outside etc. New cards come to print that do so, no changes.
WotC introduce a new mechanic that does it, and all of the sudden Rule 11 opens up for it. That's the bad take IMO.
Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
WotC clearly isn't going to stop using "outside the game" design space any time soon. And each new card is a constant reminder that EDH stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the existence of sideboards for seemingly no reason.
Its not "no reason", its a reason you don't like. Plenty here like it, and know why its like that. You not liking it is miles from it not existing.
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
"Silver bullets are the only thing to wish for" is is rife with fallacies and frankly is a cEDH player's argument. By-and-large, opponents of wishing in commander tend to be cEDH players who don't want their games of solitaire interrupted. cEDH players prefer as few variables as possible, thus their affinity for tutors and distaste for wishes.
So where are you getting those sorts of numbers / ideas? It seems like you just made it up because it sounds good. Wishes have been hot topic for much longer than cEDH has even been a thing.

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Post by Sheldon » 4 years ago

There is a simple distinction between Wishes (and Wish is shorthand for all other outside the game cards) and companion:

Companion are self-referential and restrictive. Wishes are extra-referential and expansive.

The restrictiveness is both what we like about them and why they're not problematic (save obviously in Lutri's case, in which the restriction is no restriction at all).

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

MRHblue wrote:
4 years ago
Its not "no reason", its a reason you don't like. Plenty here like it, and know why its like that. You not liking it is miles from it not existing.
Pray tell, what exactly is the reason? Because as far as I can tell, the only reasoning for why Wishes aren't legal is a decade old post from near the inception of the format in which it was said that "Wishes caused problems" (or something along those lines I don't remember the exact quote) without explanation of what exactly the problems were. Or how those problems might have changes in the intervening 10 years. We used to think Kokusho, the Evening Star was too good, for Christ's sake. We were all dumb back then.

The only other explanation that I've seen given is that a blanket format errata is better than trying to make Wishes function because 'simple is best', which is debatable but at least an understandable position. The problem is that it's clearly not true anymore. Allegedly, if the whispers are to be believed, the RC has already implemented a change to allow some outside the game cards to function but not others. Which makes it appear as though the RC has been gaslighting us by maintaining that tinkering with the rules would ultimately cause more trouble than it's worth. Because that tune sure changed quick the moment a new outside the game mechanic was printed. I guess it wasn't that difficult of a change after all.

Please. Just %$#% stop. Outright ban the Wishes and give an explanation why instead of this stupid tango of errata nonsense.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
The only other explanation that I've seen given is that a blanket format errata is better than trying to make Wishes function because 'simple is best', which is debatable but at least an understandable position.

Please. Just %$#% stop. Outright ban the Wishes and give an explanation why instead of this stupid tango of errata nonsense.
The reason has been stated; banning every new outside of the game card is far kludgier than banning searching outside of the game. You can disagree with that but it doesn't matter much if you do, that's the reason given afaik (or one of them).

I expect that the Companion rule will involve the command zone, or simply explicitly reference companions. Probably the latter (but possibly both) because in order to restrict companions to one you will need a rule.

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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
The only other explanation that I've seen given is that a blanket format errata is better than trying to make Wishes function because 'simple is best', which is debatable but at least an understandable position.

Please. Just %$#% stop. Outright ban the Wishes and give an explanation why instead of this stupid tango of errata nonsense.
The reason has been stated; banning every new outside of the game card is far kludgier than banning searching outside of the game.
Nonsense. There are already entire batches of cards that are banned in Commander - Conspiracies, Ante, etc.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
You can disagree with that but it doesn't matter much if you do...
The same is true if you do agree with that (it doesn't much matter) yet is conveniently regarded as truth-by-consensus-with-the-RC rather than what it is - a subjective opinion unbacked by data. The only reason Rule 13 exists because a couple of RC old heads don't like Wishes and not for any actual reason. #wishophobes
Release the Wishes and ban the ones that need banning due to criteria for banning any other card.
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
onering wrote:
4 years ago
Tsunami is a poster child for this, not because it's necessarily the worst thing that can be wished out, but because it checks all the boxes.
I'd argue that a player that plays Tsunami is a player I don't want to play with full stop, regardless if they put it in their mainboard or Wishboard. That's what the social contract is for. I'm pretty sure the majority of players don't enjoy MLD, so I have a hard time believing that if Wishes were legal suddenly everyone is packing nothing but Tsunami variants.

I would expect most Wishboards to end up being something along the lines of: Obviously that's just my opinion but I simply refuse to accept that the only reason people don't play Tsunami right now is because sometimes it's a dead card. I've heard that the secret to EDH is to not break it. So give us the chance to prove we can play Wishes responsibly.

Your absolutist approach to argument is childish. I never said that everyone would suddenly be running Tsunami, and trying to exaggerate a position rather than engage with it is insipid. You might think that's "nuking" and argument, but most posters here aren't 12 so they see past that %$#%. Most people wouldn't start running Tsunami, or similar cards (not all of which are mld), at the very least because I suspect that most people wouldn't play wishes because most suck, and the ones that don't aren't generally worth the effort to most people. For those that do play them, I imagine they'd take the narrow answers silver bullet approach rather than the %$#% over players silver bullet approach. The temptation will be there to use the last couple spots for cards that randomly %$#% over players, and there are people who will absolutely take that chance that wouldn't without wishboards removing the opportunity cost.

The kind that of wishboard you describe is ideal. Unfortunately, most wishes are pretty damn narrow, and can't grab the full suite of options. This requires either running multiple wishes, or running one of the very few universal wishes. I'd suspect that this will usually result in a handful of answers plus a bunch of filler, but some people will see the flashfires in their binder and think "why not."

Personally, I think the two things mostly cancel eachother out. You get a handful of cards that can search for narrow answers (the wishboard of answer silver bullets, like you described) and I'd consider that a mild positive, and you also get some players using those new tools to run Tsunami type cards, a mild negative if the numbers are small, a moderate negative if they are more significant. But allowing for these sorts of cards requires the adoption of new rules to allow for wishboards (sideboards are kind of problematic in a casual format because they encourage tournament thinking and cause players to assume that if it's in their sideboard they can just swap it into their deck before a game as a meta play against an opponents deck, and that's the sort of behavior the RC doesn't want to encourage). Ultimately, it doesn't seem like it's worth it to create rules to make wishes work at this time (especially when doing so would necessitate an auto ban for new Karn, since a self contained hard lock is %$#%$#%). Even if you add in spawnsire shenanigans and making Masterminds Acquisition better than diabolic tutor, it's still not enough.

I could see the RC revisiting their stance if we have more than a dozen wish effects. If wizards keeps on printing these effects with some regularity, then we'll eventually hit a point where the RC has to consider the benefit of allowing so many cards to function and may decide that it's worth complicating the rules to do it. It remains to be seen if WotC will indeed do that. We've had 3 in three years, after a long hiatus (I think since 04), but Karn is one of them and would likely eat a ban. That, to be frank, is what has changed between 2010 and now. Companions would count, if wizards didn't work with the RC to make special rules for them to work in commander, doing that took them out of the equation. Given the rate they've been releasing these cards, if the rate is maintained, then we're looking at a few years before we hit that mark. Advanced knowledge of what's coming could move the RC to act sooner, but I suspect that WotC doesn't have advanced knowledge of what wish style cards are coming. Both Karn and Fae were too down designs based as much on flavor as anything else, so you are only going to know about them a year or so ahead of time with no certainty they see print like that. It would take R&D being committed to a wish style card a year to create the kind of certainty that may move the RC to early action. Conspicuously, we haven't seen these cards in commander products yet, or brawl, and should wizards put one there it could force the issue.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
The reason has been stated; banning every new outside of the game card is far kludgier than banning searching outside of the game.
Nonsense. There are already entire batches of cards that are banned in Commander - Conspiracies, Ante, etc.
Conflating wishes with cards that are banned in all other formats and inherited from those is pretty emblematic of the systemic problems in your arguments on wishes.

It's basically just repeating false equivalency arguments over and over again.

onering
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
The only other explanation that I've seen given is that a blanket format errata is better than trying to make Wishes function because 'simple is best', which is debatable but at least an understandable position.

Please. Just %$#% stop. Outright ban the Wishes and give an explanation why instead of this stupid tango of errata nonsense.
The reason has been stated; banning every new outside of the game card is far kludgier than banning searching outside of the game.
Nonsense. There are already entire batches of cards that are banned in Commander - Conspiracies, Ante, etc.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
You can disagree with that but it doesn't matter much if you do...
The same is true if you do agree with that (it doesn't much matter) yet is conveniently regarded as truth-by-consensus-with-the-RC rather than what it is - a subjective opinion unbacked by data. The only reason Rule 13 exists because a couple of RC old heads don't like Wishes and not for any actual reason. #wishophobes
Release the Wishes and ban the ones that need banning due to criteria for banning any other card.
Conspiracies are banned because they don't work. It's not necessary to have them banned, imo, because you can't include them in a deck without drafting them, and that is a rule self contained in the mechanic, but the RC follows WotC lead there as they are banned in legacy and vintage. I imagine it's to avoid confusion, but key here is that conspiracies are a named mechanic who's rules self ban them from the format by virtue of the format not being draft. Ante is also a named mechanic, and self banned in formats that don't allow ante. It, again, is easier to ban a named mechanic and easier to ban ante in particular because ante is actually required for those cards to be played.

"Wishes" differ not only in that they are not a named mechanic, but in the fact that what they do not working doesn't actually stop them from functioning according to the rules. Bear with me, it's wonky. When you cast glittering wish, regardless of the format, you search your collection sideboard wishboard or whatever, but you don't actually have to find anything. Fail to find is a built in option to wishes and tutors, required to allow the game to progress if, say, you crack misty rainforest but don't have any islands or forests left in your library. Thus, in edh, wishes function, they just can't actually find you anything. For the actual wishes, this means they are useless, but for the cards where the wish effect is only one part of the card (fae, Karn, acquisition, spawnsire) it means these cards are still able to be played and used for their other functions, because they don't actually have any abilities that are illegal by the rules. -2 Karn and you're still fully within the rules of commander, you'll just fail to find. Fire off glittering wish in legacy and realize that you forgot you already sideboarded in all your multicolor cards? Oops, but your cool, you just fail to find.

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