"From outside the game" -- But not a 'Wish'

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

The Rules Committee has historically been 'monumentally opposed' to wishes. Source, and I'm sure @Legend has tons of experience debating with people about the integrity of the format and deck limits.

I look forward to the rules additions, which have previously been deemed 'unworkable' to accommodate the new product.

For reference: cards/ikoria-lair-of-behemoths/57475-ke ... -macrosage



On a personal note, I have been a long-time supporter of the RC's decision-making capacity and to see these cards permissible within the rules is a big disappointment. Before the official forums went down, there were several pages of debate about how wishes violated the spirit of the format by making decks de facto more than 100 cards, about how rules baggage would need to be specific and approach unworkability, and that Wishes were 'problematic' for the game, and only once did a RC member intervene and show any policy position whatsoever, and it was to say that the rules baggage would be so unwieldly as to be untenable.

I can't even express how much I'd like the official forums to be alive again so I could post in that thread to everyone how their justifications were, in fact, just going to be irrelevant in Q1 2020. The nature of those problems, I guess, must not be so insurmountable after all.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

100% agree that these cards should not be legal. Really violates the spirit of commander -- having access to 2 cards with partner is bad enough, potentially having access to 3 is just ridiculous, and it really does crap on the whole why wishes don't work argument.

Hopefully they come to their senses and revisit.

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Post by vandertroll » 4 years ago

At firstt I thought that I can use as many companion cards as I want for one EDH deck, i.e have 4x Lutri for an izzet deck.
I think that companion adds an extra unnecesary layer of complexity in an already very complicated format.
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Post by Maluko » 4 years ago

I'm not opposed to the cards being legal in Commander, but I agree with your sentiment that the Companion part just shouldn't work in Commander. The same way the ability of Spawnsire of Ulamog doesn't work in Commander, but you can still play the card. This goes against everything the RC has ever stated about their position for Wishes, and I really hope they rethink this decision, otherwise people will lose the trust on whatever "strong" stance they have about the format's rules.

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Treamayne
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Post by Treamayne » 4 years ago

Well, at least one won't be in the format:
https://mtgcommander.net/
SPOILER
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UPDATE

Banning Lutri, the Spellchaser

We've never banned a card before its street release date, but we feel strongly compelled to do so for Lutri, the Spellchaser. It is a card unlike any other in Magic's history. While we are firm believers in giving cards their opportunity in the format, it's clear that Lutri would be banned almost immediately. It doesn't have an opportunity cost; you don't have to sacrifice a spot in the 100 in order to play it—meaning if you have the card and are playing the right colors, you can simply include it. It becomes a thing we're not fans of, namely a "must play." A big part of this decision is that we don't want players to acquire the card thinking it might remain legal. There was consideration for letting it loose for a quarter with the likely plan to ban it later just in case it was as bad as we thought, because from where we sit, Lutri as a 101st card is intensely problematic. In the end, this is a special case, and we think that the conservative approach is the better option.
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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

I sure hope somebody picks up that phone:
Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
But either way, we now live in a brave new world in which there are currently 3 different cards (Vivien, Arkbow Ranger, Mastermind's Acquisition, Karn, the Great Creator) that reference "outside the game" in Standard now. This appears to be a design space that WotC is interested in using more of in the future, So I think it's time for us as a community to take a long hard look at why these cards are 'banned' and whether the original reasons for the decision still hold true today.
To be clear, the announcement of a preemptive ban for one of the cards implies that the Companion mechanic does, in fact, work as intended in Commander, correct? We now have legal cards that function outside of the game?
#FreeTheWishes
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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
Legend has tons of experience debating with people about the integrity of the format and deck limits..
I think the cleanest (potential) rule for the use of "outside the game" cards is for them to only be permitted in unsanctioned games (of Commander). And for sanctioned games to serve as a safe space for players (notably of cEDH) who don't want to play with or against them.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

It looks like WotC "solved" the problem for companions and only companions by creating a special space for them to reside in commander. In other formats they sit in the sideboard, but they get a special zone in commander that functions only for them. The rules work around wizards used seems to specifically reference companion, so it isn't expandable to other cards. The RC could feasibly decide to use that zone for other cards, but then that's just recreating the sideboard, and if they don't want to use sideboards they aren't going to use sideboard 2.0.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I think this is likely a mountain out of a molehill. The requirements all seem really steep and the effects are pretty middling. I guess we'll see, but I don't expect this to be a "omg every deck is 101 cards now" thing. I expect it to be popular for a few months maybe (popular meaning maybe 10-20% of the meta at most), and after that something you'll see periodically, and probably assume you're in for an easy game.

I guess actual rules complexity is a thing, but in terms of the practical rules, when you're trying to explain what commander is to a new magic player, it's not going to matter. Maybe when he's brewing decks a week later he'll say "do these things work in commander?" And you'll say "yeah but they're %$#%" and he'll say "oh, ok." and that'll be that.
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

I think 10-20 percent is pretty generous. With the otter banned, that leaves only the ones with fairly steep opportunity costs. I'm not cool with how wizards handled the rules for it, but I don't see these being all that attractive.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
The requirements all seem really steep and the effects are pretty middling. I guess we'll see, but I don't expect this to be a "omg every deck is 101 cards now" thing.
I don't disagree with everything you've written here. I actually don't expect any of these to see play, except Lutri in house-ruled in decks.

However, I expect there will be future designs. In 2014, we had the first Planeswalkers as commanders, and they were all (relatively) weak mono-colour commanders. Then Battlebond brought the Kenrith twins, and two months later, the second set of planeswalker commanders, much more powerful than the first.

Same with Partners, though with the exception of Tymna/Thrasios, the battlebond partners are weaker.

I strongly doubt this is the last we will see of Companion, and we may see stronger designs once these ones have been stewing for a year or two.

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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

It seems pretty obvious the RC wants to make a change to Rule 11 to make sure the big new splashy things gets played in Commander. I am pretty disappointed about that because of how strongly I agreed with the stance on Wishes. And on top of that Wishes still won't work? Seems like a pretty bad take, maybe they come around when they hear more strong feedback?

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
I expect there will be future designs. In 2014, we had the first Planeswalkers as commanders, and they were all (relatively) weak mono-colour commanders. Then Battlebond brought the Kenrith twins, and two months later, the second set of planeswalker commanders, much more powerful than the first.

Same with Partners, though with the exception of Tymna/Thrasios, the battlebond partners are weaker.

I strongly doubt this is the last we will see of Companion, and we may see stronger designs once these ones have been stewing for a year or two.
Your argument just shot itself in the foot.

Teferi is still probably the strongest PW commander, and he was printed first.

The battlebond partners were a "fixed" version of the earlier C16 ones. They were overall weaker, but let you play with a pair that did cool things. WotC learned from their mistakes and did, imo, better the second time.

Maybe companion will come back, but assuming they'll be stronger is pretty silly when their track record is arguably the opposite. If these prove to be problematic then you can bet they'll tone it down. If these are too weak, then maybe the power level will go up. Hard to be sure. For that matter, it's hard to know that these will return, or if they will. Sure, some mechanics return. A lot don't. We haven't really seen a return to the "scales with mana spent" mechanic from 2013 (gyrus, kinda, but he's only one card and nobody plays him). Haven't seen experience counters since 2014. Haven't seen eminence since 2017. I wouldn't just assume this will return. It might. It might not.
MRHblue wrote:
4 years ago
It seems pretty obvious the RC wants to make a change to Rule 11 to make sure the big new splashy things gets played in Commander. I am pretty disappointed about that because of how strongly I agreed with the stance on Wishes. And on top of that Wishes still won't work? Seems like a pretty bad take, maybe they come around when they hear more strong feedback?
So you don't like wishes working, but you think them continuing to have wishes not work is a bad take?

Right...
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Post by JovialJovian » 4 years ago

Companion is another of Wizards' attempts to intrude upon the Rules Committee, since they've long since regretted the promise that they wouldn't wrest control of commander from them.

The implication of the ban is that Companions must have some sort of significant cost to their inclusion. Lutri has literally no cost to inclusion in commander, while having a significant cost in standard, which I feel was deliberate on the part of the design team. There's no way that they were oblivious to that interaction.

Having such a high-profile and popular format out of their hands must be torture for the execs as Wizards.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

JovialJovian wrote:
4 years ago
Companion is another of Wizards' attempts to intrude upon the Rules Committee, since they've long since regretted the promise that they wouldn't wrest control of commander from them.

The implication of the ban is that Companions must have some sort of significant cost to their inclusion. Lutri has literally no cost to inclusion in commander, while having a significant cost in standard, which I feel was deliberate on the part of the design team. There's no way that they were oblivious to that interaction.

Having such a high-profile and popular format out of their hands must be torture for the execs as Wizards.
This conspiracy theory crap is as ridiculous as it is tedious.

If anyone at wizards is nervous about letting the RC hold the reins, it's not the design team. Why would the design team care? And if they were trying to """""intrude""""" on the rules committee (WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO DO THAT? Do they just enjoy pissing them off?), why would they print lutri, a card that's obviously problematic? Printing lutri essentially meant there were three directions the RC could go:

1) allow lutri, everyone gets sick of it quickly
2) block the companions altogether
3) ban lutri

and honestly, having lutri would have given the RC much firmer ground if they wanted to pick option 2 and kneecap wotc's latest fun and exciting mechanic. So way to shoot your own plan in the foot there, wizards! If wizards was actually voldemort and just wanted to kill commander for no good reason, despite the fact that it makes them tons of money, you could hypothesize that they were hoping the RC would pick option 1. But...why would they do that? They gain nothing.

Like seriously, what do you people think wotc is trying to do here? That if they just keep making weird mechanics that make commander rules slightly more complicated, eventually the RC will say "We give up! It's too much! Here, you can take the reins!" Because that's really, really, really, really, really, really stupid.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Your argument just shot itself in the foot.

Teferi is still probably the strongest PW commander, and he was printed first.
I think, arguably, Estrid is the most powerful planeswalker because stasis lock/stax decks are better than any interaction you could have with The Chain Veil. The only reason Estrid Stasis isn't more well-explored than Teferi Chain Veil is that cEDH got 'solved' by partners and Flash.

Anyway, I said we 'may' see stronger companions in the future; obviously battlebond partners were weaker than TnT.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
I think, arguably, Estrid is the most powerful planeswalker because stasis lock/stax decks are better than any interaction you could have with The Chain Veil. The only reason Estrid Stasis isn't more well-explored than Teferi Chain Veil is that cEDH got 'solved' by partners and Flash.

Anyway, I said we 'may' see stronger companions in the future; obviously battlebond partners were weaker than TnT.
I'm going based off the cEDH tier list, I assume they've done their due diligence. Personally I'm not a fan of either of them, and do I wish they hadn't been printed. But I'm not going to freak out about it, it didn't bring about the end of the format. It resulted in a couple fairly tedious games over my entire lifetime. I'll get over it.

While the potential to ruin the format is there, potential doesn't equal actuality. And given the potential ubiquity of any companions that cross the line, and the banning of Lutri, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume the RC is watching these cards carefully and doesn't plan to let them radically shift the format. It's not worth getting all stirred up about every potential problem in the format.

I mean the RB one looks almost custom made for my kaervek deck and I still think I'd rather have it in the 99 than the 101.

EDIT: I think eminence also falls into a similar category. In theory, I'm against it. In practice...eh...all the ones they printed are pretty fair. The only one that's maybe borked is the wizard one and I've almost never seen that. And none of the others are all that powerful. I don't think it's worth getting hung up on cards that aren't really a problem just because they could set a bad precedent, when most of the cards that create miserable games are totally normal cards.
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Post by BaronCappuccino » 4 years ago

I think what'll be more interesting is whether the position on wishes will change at all for the sake of consistency. The RC, by not kneecapping WotC's cool new mechanic, kneecapped their argument on outside the game cards. I can't imagine something not changing. Will the new rule be that bringing in cards from outside the game is okay if there's enough of a drawback? That's sort of the takeaway message regarding Companion, at the very least.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

BaronCappuccino wrote:
4 years ago
That's sort of the takeaway message regarding Companion, at the very least.
I think the actual takeaway is "so long as they're self-contained it's fine".

Wishes are open-ended so, without a rule detailing how they work (i.e. wishboard) you could potentially have issues where players are rooting through endless binders or trying to trade/buy cards on the spot. At least that's my recollection of the justification. It's been a while since I gave enough of a crap to look into it.

I wouldn't say wishes don't have a big enough downside. They're all pretty middling tutors tbh. None of them hold a candle to demonic. And leaving powerful cards in your SB means you can't tutor for them with other tutors.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

I wouldn't say wishes don't have a big enough downside. They're all pretty middling tutors tbh. None of them hold a candle to demonic. And leaving powerful cards in your SB means you can't tutor for them with other tutors.
Burning wish is VERY close to as powerful as demonic in commander with the ability to find whatever specialized one sided sweeper you want (e.g. shatterstorm or cleansing meditation or whatever horsecrap.

living wish is also very very powerful and would see a ton of play for specific hate creatures and lands.

Several of them are situationally way more powerful than demonic, higher ceiling lower floor. Living wish for collector ouphe or linvala, keeper of silence will both win tons of games, and not require you to have them in your deck.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Burning wish is VERY close to as powerful as demonic in commander with the ability to find whatever specialized one sided sweeper you want (e.g. shatterstorm or cleansing meditation or whatever horsecrap.

living wish is also very very powerful and would see a ton of play for specific hate creatures and lands.

Several of them are situationally way more powerful than demonic, higher ceiling lower floor. Living wish for collector ouphe or linvala, keeper of silence will both win tons of games, and not require you to have them in your deck.
Burning wish becomes 6 mana to destroy all artifacts, or 5 to destroy all enchantments? Wow, that's almost as powerful as the totally banned austere command. That is banned, right?

There might be actually problematic cards but those...aren't it. Come back to me with better examples and then maybe we can talk.

If I was playing green + white and wanted a suite of situational answer creatures, I'd put them in my mainboard so I could hit them with worldly/sylvan/eldamri's/etc. With living wish you're basically just hoping you draw specifically that card. And then maybe it's a 4 mana collector ouphe. Sick.

I mean no human has seriously called for a banning of eladamri's call. living wish is pretty similar to that, except only for creatures that sucked too much to include in your deck.

I mean yes, flexibility is powerful, no doubt. It's possible, though I think unlikely, that some might need to be banned. But I don't think they deserve to ALL be (functionally) banned sight-unseen. They've never been legal in the whole time I've been playing commander, and that was pretty close to the first mainstream awareness of the format. That seems pretty ridiculous to me.

That said...

I actually don't care that much about getting to use wishes, it does seem like a lot of overhead to bother with in deck construction that would be annoying.

More relevant to this thread, none of the issues that apply to wishes - overhead, possible but unlikely power level issues, open-ended-ness - apply to companions. Other than "the rules seem like they wouldn't currently allow them, and I don't want the rules to change" I haven't heard any salient arguments against them working as intended.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Kelzam » 4 years ago

Companions are self referencing and don't refer to others, so the comparison to Wishes that everyone wants to latch on to isn't even a good one. There are some distinctions that exist that people ignore for the sake of debate or inability to separate their personal desires from what is objectively true:

First, on Wishes vs Tutors: Wishes are more than tutors in Commander. They're 15 additional cards represented by a singular card in the 99 that supersedes deck building restrictions; 15 cards beyond the already plentiful 99. Wish boards are typically either full of silver bullets and specific hate cards, combo pieces or answers that the player wants to play beyond the deck construction rules of 99+1, so they just essentially cheated the deck construction rules by adding a card and/or cards that represents yet another 15 more cards (or more, if their playgroup allows them to just use the card as written).

When considering that most of the Wishes are specialized to 15 of a particular card type, you could be going as far as doubling the amount of cards available to you of that type. It should be exceedingly obvious why they're banned. Take Kess, Dissident Mage. The data on EDHREC suggests the average deck runs 17 Sorcery. A Burning Wish nearly doubles this count without actually making sacrifices or choices while building the 99, and Cunning Wish is also a large increase to the effective amount of Instants in the deck, This fact is true for most decks out there, and it's easy to recur them - they don't exile themselves. Wishboard cards go into your graveyard once they're in the game - they can be recurred, and once in the game actively act part of the deck. The difference is that a normal tutor is essentially another copy of any card in the 99 that it can search for-It represents a card that you included while building within the deck construction rules. The behavior behind using Wishes and why Wishes are used is antithesis to the intended experience of the format, full stop.

Companions are one additional card that you can cast once from a zone outside the game that can never go back into that zone again, that are self-referencing and impose further deck building restrictions. They're so far removed from what Wishes actually mean to the format that it looks ridiculous to debate any similarities or to not understand the difference. The two aren't even comparable and it seems like people are outright choosing not to or refusing to see the forest from the trees. This shouldn't even be a debate.
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Post by BaronCappuccino » 4 years ago

Nobody is arguing that there aren't differences between companions and wishes. Before replying here, I reread the thread to make sure nobody said as much. Maybe the offending posts got deleted. The question at hand isn't even whether wishes should be legal. I don't care- wouldn't use them anyway. The question is, can the rules be adjusted to allow companions and not wishes, bearing in mind this is a rules committee that has abstained from messy rules that would ban off color fetches? If they can, then awesome. If not, let rule 0 handle wishes. Nobody wants a messy, arbitrary sounding rule.

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Post by BaronCappuccino » 4 years ago

I suppose they could free up the outside the game space as okay, killing the related rule, and simply ban the offending wishes outright. You wouldn't avoid adding sol ring to the ban list by making a rule that says artifacts can't produce mana, after all.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Kelzam wrote:
4 years ago
First, on Wishes vs Tutors: Wishes are more than tutors in Commander.
Well, they're more and they're less. Sometimes the card you want is in your deck already. In fact probably pretty often, since you should usually put your best cards in your deck. That's a hot tip right there.
They're 15 additional cards represented by a singular card in the 99 that supersedes deck building restrictions; 15 cards beyond the already plentiful 99.
I hate hate hate this argument.

1) a 115 card deck wouldn't be an advantage (in 99% of games) if you were allowed to do it, so complaining that they're getting to play a 115 card deck and that's an unfair advantage is kind of ridiculous. If you ask me we should just get rid of the 100 card maximum because it's a dumb waste-of-time rule that does nothing. Then scrubs can play 112 card decks because they "just couldn't whittle it down" and everybody else can win more often.

2) a single wish doesn't let you pull in 15 cards, it lets you pick one OF 15 cards (I mean, you could copy it I guess, but who cares). And it exiles itself on resolution. So it's more like a modal spell with 15 different modes (where demonic tutor is a modal spell with 98 different modes). Is cryptic command "cheating the deck construction rules" because it's multiple spells in one? Obviously not. Trading efficiency for flexibility is a classic deck construction dilemma. Wishes are just another iteration of that.

3) Does anyone seriously care about the 100 card maximum rule? I really don't understand why any human being would care about that rule. They just really hate battle of wits? They hate arguing with scrubs about whether it's optimal to have an extra card "just in case the game goes to natural mill" or "to get the land ratio perfect"? Seriously, what is even the point of that rule?

I mean sure, the possibility exists for people to put a bunch of hate cards in the board and dunk on people. That's an actual argument. I don't know that we have the evidence to back that up, given that nobody has used wishes in a decade, but that's the only point I can really agree with. When your wishboard is kind of a free resource, you may as well throw in an acid rain just in case. Though I'm not convinced that the social contract wouldn't keep that sort of thing out of wishboards. I'm fine with stuff like Linvala out of the board - that's a fine card you could have easily mainboarded anyway, and you're paying a premium for the flexibility. Seems fair. I really think they deserve a widespread trial run because it really just depends on how people actually want to use them, not the theoretical worst-case scenario.

We could try a small (5 card?) wishboard to prevent people running a huge suite of color hate just for lulz.
Wishes are used is antithesis to the intended experience of the format, full stop.
Anybody think 100 card maximum is a totally crucial rule, without which commander would be unrecognizable? If you raised your hand you're either a nut or a liar.

Who cares about the "intended experience"? The rules have changed plenty in order to improve the gameplay of the format. If it's more fun, do it. I don't know if wishes would be more or less fun, but that's what actually matters, not "intended experience".

And for the record, even if they're a bit unfun sometimes, I'd still say allow them if they aren't really problematic. We let plenty of annoying cards exist. No reason to be meaner to the wishes than jokulhaups or winter orb.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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