"From outside the game" -- But not a 'Wish'

papa_funk
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Post by papa_funk » 4 years ago

BaronCappuccino wrote:
4 years ago
The question is, can the rules be adjusted to allow companions and not wishes, bearing in mind this is a rules committee that has abstained from messy rules that would ban off color fetches?
Yes.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

3) Does anyone seriously care about the 100 card maximum rule?
The fact that quite a number of people have expressed unhappiness here suggests yes here, too.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Who cares about the "intended experience"?
I do.

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Post by BaronCappuccino » 4 years ago

Now I'm waiting with bated breath to see what angle the RC takes in tackling the relevant rules, particularly as they've always been an entity that cares as much or more about the delivery of the rules as they do about the content of the rules.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

papa_funk wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

3) Does anyone seriously care about the 100 card maximum rule?
The fact that quite a number of people have expressed unhappiness here suggests yes here, too.

Very specifically I care about the 'this is your deck and this is what is in it' as design space. Modal cards and redundancy are cool in commander because your deck has to be self-contained without sideboard cards. Sideboarding is, weirdly, the thing I hate most about competitive magic - part of it is growing up playing 60-80 card casual decks just imprinted on my brain that your deck should be able to deal with almost anything, so we played main deck disenchant and stream of life and everyone had creature removal in their decks. It's obviously not the same as it is now but that just "your deck is a self-contained work of art" is part of the ethos of commander for me.

I seriously have seen people sideboarding in commander before, pulling 5 cards out because there's an artifact deck at the table and slotting in some hate. I can't remember anything turning me off more than that.

The idea of people tutoring for silver bullets outside of the game is probably the only thing commonly asked for that would make me instantly give up playing outside of a meta that refuses to do it.

Obviously commander isn't just for me but the whole concept of wishing and wishboards is just foul to me.

Having access to yet another card functionally in the command zone is closer to that than not for me, but thankfully these cards come with very restrictive deckbuilding rules. If they did it again and made the rules much more broad so that they saw more than niche play I would absolutely hate it.

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

Kelzam wrote:
4 years ago
They're so far removed from what Wishes actually mean to the format that it looks ridiculous to debate any similarities or to not understand the difference. The two aren't even comparable and it seems like people are outright choosing not to or refusing to see the forest from the trees. This shouldn't even be a debate.
Here's the problem: Wishes aren't banned. They are de facto banned by a rule that specifically says they don't work. Except now that rule is changing but... Wishes still don't work, apparently. It is a Gordian Knot of bending over backwards to ensure that Wishes remain unplayable while allowing other "outside the game" to function as intended.

You can argue all you want that there's a world of difference between Companion and Wishes (and it's really not as wide a gap as you seem to think), but the fact remains that the blanket logic the RC has been using to keep Wishes out of the format no longer holds true. Simply saying "outside the game" cards don't work isn't an option anymore. So now it's time for the RC to actually sack up and commit to straight up banning Wishes (because that seems what they actually want to do), or to stop arbitrarily insisting that EDH works differently from every other format in existence by not having a sideboard (and by extension allowing Wishes to work like they do in literally every other format).
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

papa_funk wrote:
4 years ago
The fact that quite a number of people have expressed unhappiness here suggests yes here, too.
People have expressed unhappiness with wishes (and companions). Their arguments frequently involve bringing up the 100 card maximum as justification, but wishes aren't REALLY increasing the maximum deck size anyway, they just (kind of...) go against the spirit of it. They aren't justifying the 100 card maximum as being a rule they like, they're just using the existing rule as justification for not allowing the new thing (companions) that they don't like. If companions weren't part of the discussion I doubt things would be nearly as heated.

I have never heard a good argument for keeping the maximum.

For the record - if the 100 card maximum was removed, I don't think I'd ever build a deck with more than 100 cards. Battle of wits interests me about as much as catching corona virus, and I've got more than five brain cells to rub together so I understand that bigger decks are worse. I just think it should be brought in line with how magic's other major formats work - limit the minimum to restrict power level, but if someone wants to go bigger for some crazy reason, be it on their own head.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Who cares about the "intended experience"?
I do.
So if, tomorrow, you tested a new rule that changed the experience, but made commander objectively more fun (in the sense that everyone who ever plays it agrees its more fun both short and long term), you wouldn't change the rules?

Fun is the point of the format. The intended experience is how we got here but the intended experience has changed over time - presumably to make the format more enjoyable. Otherwise why did the format ever change? Didn't you break from the intended experience of the format when you got rid of the original elder dragons? 200 life split? color identity rule change?

I see no reason not to assume the same thing will happen again in the future.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Very specifically I care about the 'this is your deck and this is what is in it' as design space. Modal cards and redundancy are cool in commander because your deck has to be self-contained without sideboard cards. Sideboarding is, weirdly, the thing I hate most about competitive magic - part of it is growing up playing 60-80 card casual decks just imprinted on my brain that your deck should be able to deal with almost anything, so we played main deck disenchant and stream of life and everyone had creature removal in their decks. It's obviously not the same as it is now but that just "your deck is a self-contained work of art" is part of the ethos of commander for me.
Hey hey hey, nobody is saying sideboards. I don't want sideboards either. Just because wishboards and sideboards are the same thing in other formats doesn't mean they have to be here.
The idea of people tutoring for silver bullets outside of the game is probably the only thing commonly asked for that would make me instantly give up playing outside of a meta that refuses to do it.
That is a possibility, but restricting the wishboard size could potentially restrict that. Ultimately it just comes down to how people use them. If it's the RC's goal to send a message with then banlist, they could always ban the most egregious answers like acid rain and flashfires. Anybody going to miss those cards? Yeah I thought not.
Having access to yet another card functionally in the command zone is closer to that than not for me, but thankfully these cards come with very restrictive deckbuilding rules. If they did it again and made the rules much more broad so that they saw more than niche play I would absolutely hate it.
I feel the same, the design space scared me initially (and before I saw lutri was banned). I think they've been conservative enough that it'll be more of a fun restriction - even another way to self-limit - rather than something problematic. Hopefully it stays that way.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
That is a possibility, but restricting the wishboard size could potentially restrict that. Ultimately it just comes down to how people use them. If it's the RC's goal to send a message with then banlist, they could always ban the most egregious answers like acid rain and flashfires. Anybody going to miss those cards? Yeah I thought not.
Please just none at all, the idea that a burning wishboard becomes standard in red decks and incorrect not to do is just pure 100% gag.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Please just none at all, the idea that a burning wishboard becomes standard in red decks and incorrect not to do is just pure 100% gag.
Just because something is good doesn't mean people are always going to run it.
EDHrec wrote:Demonic Tutor
In 49623 decks
30% of 164031 decks
And demonic tutor is leagues stronger than burning wish.

Especially considering the extra effort involved in creating a wishboard, I suspect a wish would be regarded similarly to stuff like armageddon is now: technically legal but pretty try-hardy, and most people won't run it.

I mean if nothing else, I'd say I'd much rather just ban literally every single wish and get rid of the rule. It just seems less cluttered to me. What we've got right now is essentially a functional errata which is just...ew.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

Just because something is good doesn't mean people are always going to run it.
EDHrec wrote:Demonic Tutor
In 49623 decks
30% of 164031 decks
And demonic tutor is leagues stronger than burning wish.

Especially considering the extra effort involved in creating a wishboard, I suspect a wish would be regarded similarly to stuff like armageddon is now: technically legal but pretty try-hardy, and most people won't run it.

I mean if nothing else, I'd say I'd much rather just ban literally every single wish and get rid of the rule. It just seems less cluttered to me. What we've got right now is essentially a functional errata which is just...ew.
The rule prevents karn the great creator from needing an insta ban (and every other card they add with that rules text). Especially cards that have a mode that does that, for example. Say they had a modal tutor that searches for a card in grave or outside of the game, it doesn't now need a ban - it functions but doesn't get from out of the game.

The difference between demonic tutor and burning wish is that with the former you have one autoinclude, and with the latter you have one autoinclude plus a big pile of wishboard cards to plan. It's very different. it changes the game.

I run demonic tutor in a lot of decks; decks at the power level that I play at would all (optimally for their power level) want a burning wish wishboard and probably a cunning wish wishboard, and maybe a glittering wish package.

For me it adds a ton of new baggage to deckbuilding because I play at that power level where it's appropriate.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Say they had a modal tutor that searches for a card in grave or outside of the game, it doesn't now need a ban - it functions but doesn't get from out of the game.
Mastermind's Acquisition is the card you are looking for :)

Otherwise, I am pretty much in agreement with your thought process as well behind wishboards. I am kind of on board with Companion (begrudgingly so, to be honest) with Partners being a similar predecessor. In my mind these play in the same space as Partners and have nothing to do with Wishes or the lack of functionality they have in Commander. And I would prefer Wishes remain as they are now (I would even get on board with an actual ban of them if Wizards didn't insist on adding "outside the game" to other effects).

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
The rule prevents karn the great creator from needing an insta ban (and every other card they add with that rules text). Especially cards that have a mode that does that, for example. Say they had a modal tutor that searches for a card in grave or outside of the game, it doesn't now need a ban - it functions but doesn't get from out of the game.

The difference between demonic tutor and burning wish is that with the former you have one autoinclude, and with the latter you have one autoinclude plus a big pile of wishboard cards to plan. It's very different. it changes the game.

I run demonic tutor in a lot of decks; decks at the power level that I play at would all (optimally for their power level) want a burning wish wishboard and probably a cunning wish wishboard, and maybe a glittering wish package.

For me it adds a ton of new baggage to deckbuilding because I play at that power level where it's appropriate.
I mean, I'd think you probably wouldn't ACTUALLY insta ban them. If it's not a problem I think it's fine. Say wotc prints some future card that gets a griffin you own from outside the game. Is that going to be a problem? Probably not. I think karn is probably fine personally, but who knows.

Wishes do add a lot of potential effort to deckbuilding, true, but it's optional. Nobody's saying you have to do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. Simple as that. And I think having smaller wishboards would also diminish the "work" aspect of it. Hell, let's go 3, like 3 wishes. Then it feels a lot more like a make-it-yourself modal spell, and less like the universe in a card. And playing more than 1 would drastically decrease their efficacy.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Say they had a modal tutor that searches for a card in grave or outside of the game, it doesn't now need a ban - it functions but doesn't get from out of the game.
Mastermind's Acquisition is the card you are looking for :)

Otherwise, I am pretty much in agreement with your thought process as well behind wishboards. I am kind of on board with Companion (begrudgingly so, to be honest) with Partners being a similar predecessor. In my mind these play in the same space as Partners and have nothing to do with Wishes or the lack of functionality they have in Commander. And I would prefer Wishes remain as they are now (I would even get on board with an actual ban of them if Wizards didn't insist on adding "outside the game" to other effects).
Yeah I knew I had seen one of those. Works fine as is, functional second copy of diabolic tutor for whoever wants it, no reason to ban it.

I am on board with companion as long as it stays as restrictive as it is; severe deckbuilding consequences. But severely nervous about them pushing the power level to where they border on being goodstuff in any real archetype.

keruga, the macrosage is about one cmc in its text (cmc 2) from being a staple. If any of these things are staples vs. gimmicks it becomes a big problem for me personally.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I mean, I'd think you probably wouldn't ACTUALLY insta ban them. If it's not a problem I think it's fine. Say wotc prints some future card that gets a griffin you own from outside the game. Is that going to be a problem? Probably not. I think karn is probably fine personally, but who knows.

Wishes do add a lot of potential effort to deckbuilding, true, but it's optional. Nobody's saying you have to do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. Simple as that. And I think having smaller wishboards would also diminish the "work" aspect of it. Hell, let's go 3, like 3 wishes. Then it feels a lot more like a make-it-yourself modal spell, and less like the universe in a card. And playing more than 1 would drastically decrease their efficacy.
Karn is definitely not fine, one card mycosynth lattice combo can get horked. You would need to ban a lot of them and it adds an awful lot of maintenance headache for no reason. The effect doesn't work, that's fine.

Wishboards would absolutely be required at certain powerlevels. You do have to do it if you want your deck to operate at 7 or 8, because 7 or 8 decks run the stuff at that power level -- if everyone else is doing it and it's the standard at medium to high power then you've gotta.

The power level increase is pretty serious; for most decks it's going to be like having an extra copy of demonic tutor that you have to build a wishboard for and then carry those stupid cards around.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
keruga, the macrosage is about one cmc in its text (cmc 2) from being a staple. If any of these things are staples vs. gimmicks it becomes a big problem for me personally.
Idk you still miss the two best cards in the format plus a lot of cheap interaction and strong cards. And I'm not sold on the ETB being that great (although I guess if you're saying the etb is also 2 then that would be a significant improvement). Keruga as-is just looks heinously bad to me. Though maybe it'll be good in limited.

But I agree generally-speaking. I'm hoping/assuming (hopesuming) that these will be a pretty rare sight after a few years, and more of a deckbuilding challenge than a way to improve a deck. I like variety.

Honestly they seem like a great way to intentionally lower your power level while optimizing within a restricted space - with a neat little reward attached for fun.
Karn is definitely not fine, one card mycosynth lattice combo can get horked. You would need to ban a lot of them and it adds an awful lot of maintenance headache for no reason. The effect doesn't work, that's fine.

Wishboards would absolutely be required at certain powerlevels. You do have to do it if you want your deck to operate at 7 or 8, because 7 or 8 decks run the stuff at that power level -- if everyone else is doing it and it's the standard at medium to high power then you've gotta.

The power level increase is pretty serious; for most decks it's going to be like having an extra copy of demonic tutor that you have to build a wishboard for and then carry those stupid cards around.
I mean, sure it's nasty. There's plenty of nasty stuff though and people rarely play it. I mean, if it suddenly got un-nerfed then people probably would for a bit just to try it. Even then we're talking 10 mana though. Idk. It's just too hard to say what people are going to do. If everyone was running obliterate I'd be out in the streets campaigning for it to be banned. But nobody does so I don't care.

T&N is a 1-card combo that wins instead of just locking down the game. Don't really see it that much tbh. Can't see karn being any different.

In general, I think the things people tend to not self-censor is stuff that advances their own board state. Stuff like paradox engine that lets them go "untappy machine go brrrrrrr". Stax stuff most people don't play even when it's available.

I kinda like my 3 wishes idea. It's small enough that it'd probably fit just fine into a normal deck box, wouldn't take much time to make, and would be restrictive enough that the wishes wouldn't be THAT flexible or powerful. You're probably not chucking in nothing but silver bullets, there's just not enough chambers in that gun to answer very many different things.

The idea that you'd need to use a wishboard to play at a 7 or 8 is ridiculous. At 10, sure, fine. Maximum means maximum. At 7 or 8, though, you're already intentionally passing on a LOT of potential power. One card isn't going to make that big of a difference. A flash hulk deck that's a 10, if you removed even its best tutor for a basic land is still like a 9.8. Not playing wishes when you "should" is akin to the same.

Personally I dislike necro. I basically never play it. Just not a fan. I know it's powerful. In a hundred+ decks I think I've played it two or three times at most. I also don't run infinite combos, or excessive extra turns, or MLD, or a bunch of other stuff that would definitely make my decks stronger. I still crush easily, my decks are always in that 7-8 range. Not playing one wish card? Yeah pretty sure it's still achievable to get 7-8.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
The power level increase is pretty serious; for most decks it's going to be like having an extra copy of demonic tutor that you have to build a wishboard for and then carry those stupid cards around.
Is it, though? What, exactly, are you Wishing for that is so powerful (and why isn't it just in your mainboard to begin with)? Let's assume that Karn is banned because he's an outlier in that he forms a one-card combo. Please give me some concrete examples of what problematic things Wishes will do if they become legal.

I think people blow the presumed impact of Wishes way out of proportion to how good they actually are. We have one of the better Wishes ever printed in Standard right now and the only deck that plays it is the one that can cast it for free. Surprise, surprise, adding 3+ mana onto the spells you want to cast is a legitimate cost in terms of both mana and tempo. Wishes aren't just free modal spells that do whatever you want.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

The rules baggage alone is worth keeping wishes out of the format. How many cards in a wishboard? Can I have duplicates of cards already in the deck? Can I have multiples of cards in the wishboard? What would we have to ban if we allowed wishes?

Aside from that, how is it good gameplay for a single card to act as an answer to literally anything? Sounds gross. Part of the challenge of deckbuilding is figuring out how many answers and threats to run, and if one card can be 15, it feels like cheating to me. I don't like it I say!
Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
Is it, though? What, exactly, are you Wishing for that is so powerful (and why isn't it just in your mainboard to begin with)?
Silver bullets. That's kind of the point. Is Shatterstorm generally worth a slot in your deck? No. Would it be great to have one when your'e facing down an artifact deck? Of course. How about Tranquility against an enchantress deck? Tsunami against a mono-blue deck? None of these are worth a slot, but Burning Wish can be any of them and more. Why not run it and a full suite of answers?
Last edited by RxPhantom 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
The power level increase is pretty serious; for most decks it's going to be like having an extra copy of demonic tutor that you have to build a wishboard for and then carry those stupid cards around.
Is it, though? What, exactly, are you Wishing for that is so powerful (and why isn't it just in your mainboard to begin with)? Let's assume that Karn is banned because he's an outlier in that he forms a one-card combo. Please give me some concrete examples of what problematic things Wishes will do if they become legal.

I think people blow the presumed impact of Wishes way out of proportion to how good they actually are. We have one of the better Wishes ever printed in Standard right now and the only deck that plays it is the one that can cast it for free. Surprise, surprise, adding 3+ mana onto the spells you want to cast is a legitimate cost in terms of both mana and tempo. Wishes aren't just free modal spells that do whatever you want.
You're looking for narrow hate spells and game winning bombs you don't want to draw. Using burning wish as an example:

And that is just me looking for 10 minutes for random cards that probably aren't good enough to maindeck most of the time but could completely destroy the game at the right time -- or a few cards like Torment that you usually don't wanna draw til you win and would be fine spending 2 more mana for.

So many decks could just replace something like insurrection with burning wish and now that is a modal card of "win the game" or "destroy all white creatures" :P

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
So many decks could just replace something like insurrection with burning wish and now that is a modal card of "win the game" or "destroy all white creatures" :P
Ok well basically none of those are problematic but it's a long list and I'm a busy guy, so let's trim it down a bit shall we?

Insurrection for 2 more mana is a not-insignificant difference. 10 mana is a lot more than 8 for decks that aren't doing a wort, the raidmother and ramping to insanity. And if you cast it a turn ahead to spread the cost over turns, it's WAY worse when everyone knows it's coming.

Nobody wants to interact with my "3 wishes" concept but I think it's actually kind of freaking great. Are you really going to put a narrow hate card like anarchy into your wishboard if you only get 3 cards? I suspect you won't. It also communicates the idea that this is not a sideboard. It's pretty easy to build but adds some complexity to deckbuilding for those who want to use it. And it means that running >1 wish in the deck is going to be really hard to make workable.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
So many decks could just replace something like insurrection with burning wish and now that is a modal card of "win the game" or "destroy all white creatures" :P
Ok well basically none of those are problematic but it's a long list and I'm a busy guy, so let's trim it down a bit shall we?

Insurrection for 2 more mana is a not-insignificant difference. 10 mana is a lot more than 8 for decks that aren't doing a wort, the raidmother and ramping to insanity. And if you cast it a turn ahead to spread the cost over turns, it's WAY worse when everyone knows it's coming.

Nobody wants to interact with my "3 wishes" concept but I think it's actually kind of freaking great. Are you really going to put a narrow hate card like anarchy into your wishboard if you only get 3 cards? I suspect you won't. It also communicates the idea that this is not a sideboard. It's pretty easy to build but adds some complexity to deckbuilding for those who want to use it. And it means that running >1 wish in the deck is going to be really hard to make workable.
Most suggestions I've heard are 10 or 15.

At 3, it's still problematic -- Everyone gets a burning wish for: extraction spell, narrow sweeper, and win condition.

Any lower than 3 and they're mostly hot garbage -- although as usual green has the best there at:

Living wish for Just say no.


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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Most suggestions I've heard are 10 or 15.

At 3, it's still problematic -- Everyone gets a burning wish for: extraction spell, narrow sweeper, and win condition.

Any lower than 3 and they're mostly hot garbage -- although as usual green has the best there at:

Living wish for Just say no.
10 or 15 is, if nothing else, a large amount of additional work to put together. I'd probably use it pretty sparingly simply because that sounds kinda tedious and would likely want a lot of pretty narrow hoser cards.

But we're not talking about 10 or 15, we're talking about 3. Focus, man.

I don't see your split as problematic at all. You're either adding 2 mana to your win condition - not insignificant, AT ALL - or you're telegraphing it to the whole table a turn in advance. In exchange sometimes it's a narrow sweeper that will, by being narrow, frequently not be useful...and if you do use it then you can't get that win condition anymore. Was that your only win condition? Was it your best win condition? Hope it wasn't! Don't even know what you mean by extraction spell. Like literally extract? That is WAY less effective at 3 mana, and how would you even know you needed it when you're tutoring?

I'm not saying it couldn't be useful, obviously. Well-used it could be a powerful tool in the right situations. But it's not going to be easy to improve the quality of your deck by just subbing out a wincon and adding some narrow hate cards. Mana cost matters.

Also I don't see turning 3 strong 2-drops into a more flexible 4-drop as "overpowered". A lot of my decks wouldn't care too much about any of those, honestly, and you'll usually only be significantly hosing one player at once with that sort of thing. For something like collector ouphe - are you not going to run activated artifacts in your deck? Just in case you draw your wish and then the enemy decks are such that ouphe is the right card to tutor? Seems like you're throwing away a lot of options for something that's going to come up pretty rarely. And running those 3 in the WB means you can't search them from your main deck...y'know, with your much wider suite of tutors that would give you a reasonable % to hit one of them in a game where you needed it...
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
The rules baggage alone is worth keeping wishes out of the format. How many cards in a wishboard? Can I have duplicates of cards already in the deck? Can I have multiples of cards in the wishboard? What would we have to ban if we allowed wishes?
Weird how other formats don't have this problem. Almost like these questions have already been answered by the rules that dictate sideboard construction.
RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
Silver bullets. That's kind of the point. Is Shatterstorm generally worth a slot in your deck? No. Would it be great to have one when your'e facing down an artifact deck? Of course. How about Tranquility against an enchantress deck? Tsunami against a mono-blue deck? None of these are worth a slot, but Burning Wish can be any of them and more. Why not run it and a full suite of answers?
...and? Shatterstorm might not be good enough, but Vandalblast, Bane of Progress, Austere Command and many others are. Not to mention, isn't this the same community that constantly berates people for "not running enough answers"? How is more responsible deck building a bad thing?

And just out of curiosity, if you knew with 100% certainty you were going to be playing against a mono-blue deck, would you mainboard Tsunami? Because I don't believe the only thing stopping people from playing MLD is that sometimes it's a dead card. That's why we have a social contract.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
You're looking for narrow hate spells and game winning bombs you don't want to draw. Using burning wish as an example:
And you think these cards are required to compete with an 8/10 deck? Like, those are somehow better than just T&N for Mike and Trike? Or Protean Hulk for anything? Even if you're getting the absolute maximum value out of these cards, they're almost universally worse than what you can already do for the same CMC+2. With the exception of the MLD (which, again, is something I expect the social contract to handle) these cards are all panic reset buttons that help manage an out of control board state, not cards that are proactively ending the game or building insurmountable resource advantages. They're all things people should be playing more of anyways, but they can't because jamming 4 different Tranquility variants into their decks isn't feasible when they're hard-locked at 100 cards. There simply isn't room to play the amount of answers that should be played given the variety of threats one might need to deal with in any given game.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
And it means that running >1 wish in the deck is going to be really hard to make workable.
Hence why it seems like a bad idea. Having only 3 slots defeats the purpose. With so little room the only cards you'll be able to fit are 3 redundant effects of cards already in your deck (another sweeper, another generic answer, and another fun-of for example) which basically makes Wishes just worse tutors. Not to mention it makes running 2 Wishes essentially impossible unless they somehow overlap. 10 seems like the sweet spot to me but 15 is probably easier because it brings it in line with every other format.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I'm just so damn glad it's never gonna happen I can't express it

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Impossible wrote:
4 years ago
Hence why it seems like a bad idea. Having only 3 slots defeats the purpose. With so little room the only cards you'll be able to fit are 3 redundant effects of cards already in your deck (another sweeper, another generic answer, and another fun-of for example) which basically makes Wishes just worse tutors. Not to mention it makes running 2 Wishes essentially impossible unless they somehow overlap. 10 seems like the sweet spot to me but 15 is probably easier because it brings it in line with every other format.
It's really funny how one person says it totally defeats the purpose, and another person says it's still too much flexibility. Sheesh. There's just no pleasing people.

Personally, while I'd probably be fine with a 15 card wishboard, I doubt I'd want to use it very often. As long as I'm going to use it, I feel like I've got to actually find 15 more cards to fill it up with, which is a lot of hassle, especially since cards I'd otherwise not consider running would become reasonable out of the WB. I'd do it for my favorite decks, but when I'm just throwing something together for commander night, it's just not worth the effort. It would kind of annoy me that it took so much more effort to optimize my decks, but I'd get over it.

Plus my deck boxes aren't much wider than 100 cards. 3 cards might squeeze in there but 15 is definitely out of the question. So now I've got another deck box just for wishboards. Idk, sounds kind of annoying. So I'd probably just not use it.
Last edited by DirkGently 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'm just so damn glad it's never gonna happen I can't express it
It will eventually. WotC clearly isn't going to stop using "outside the game" design space any time soon. And each new card is a constant reminder that EDH stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the existence of sideboards for seemingly no reason.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
So I'd probably just not use it.
Which is a perfectly valid answer. I'm kind of flabbergasted that people seem to think Wishes will suddenly be required to play EDH if they become legal. Yeah, they're cool flexible answers. And they're all worse in basically every way to DT. If you can live without DT you can live without Wishes.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Something that occurs to me - I think there is a crucial difference between wishboards in other formats and wishboards in commander. In, say, standard, your sideboard and your wishboard are the same thing. An ideal wishboard would contain only one of every card, so you could get include as many hyper-powerful, hyper-narrow answers as possible. Whereas a sideboard wants to have duplicates of answers to the most important things, so that post-board you'll actually have a chance to hit those things. Commander wishboards wouldn't have that limitation. In fact they couldn't. So you'd be playing 15 hyper-powerful hyper-narrow answers, which could feel pretty annoying to get rekt by. Putting hushbringer into a 3-card wishboard means you run into a fair amount of etb abuse and you want an answer to it. Putting hushbringer into a 15-card wishboard means "%$#% it, I know people sometimes run etb creatures so I may as well."
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
While the potential to ruin the format is there, potential doesn't equal actuality.
I agree. I'm not especially disappointed in the design of these cards, just in the weird way it purports to be okay while it says wishes are not.

I think wishes are fine, too, even though the 'potential' is there.

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