"From outside the game" -- But not a 'Wish'

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Nothing in the game lets you take an action while it's in a hidden zone, for good reason.
I think you are forgetting about the powerhouse that is 1996 World Champion :P (link since it isn't in the DB here)

But yeah. The closest we really have to something like that is Panglacial Wurm and even then the search has to already be occurring.

MRHblue
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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

If your deck {whatever criteria} you may cast this spell from your library. You may only cast this spell this way once per game.
Second Sunrise and such keep track of those ideas. Panglacial Wurm can be cast from a hidden zone, why does it happening during a search matter?

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Huh? How does second sunrise do that? 'Splain.

The reason it matters is that the library is a hidden zone to both players. Normally you'd know if you had the card in your deck or not, but what if an opponent exiles some of your cards face down, and one turns out to be your companion? Then you declare you're casting it, but you can't because it's not there. And maybe you scryed some cards to the bottom, so the order isn't fully randomized. Or what if you declare you're casting it, but then decide to fail to find? Your opponent isn't allowed to just go digging through your library to see if you're lying. It's just a nightmare.

With wurm, you're looking through your library already so you can verify that it's there as you cast it, and randomization doesn't matter since you're shuffling it anyway.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by if4ko » 4 years ago

I don't particularly get it, but I guess when you're in charge of the format, you can make special exceptions.

As for the eight companions themselves, they're fine. Even Jegantha (which makes 5cgoodstuff.general absurd and breaks Najeela even more than she was) has that corner case of "can be broken to hell but it's up to you to determine whether you break them or not." In 95% of cases, the companion restriction breeds creativity and innovation. I'm personally looking to rebuild my odd matters deck with Kenrith and Obosh at the helm.

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Post by MRHblue » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Huh? How does second sunrise do that? 'Splain.
I mistyped, I meant Approach of the Second Sun. It keeps track of how often something has been cast this game
The reason it matters is that the library is a hidden zone to both players. Normally you'd know if you had the card in your deck or not, but what if an opponent exiles some of your cards face down, and one turns out to be your companion? Then you declare you're casting it, but you can't because it's not there. And maybe you scryed some cards to the bottom, so the order isn't fully randomized. Or what if you declare you're casting it, but then decide to fail to find? Your opponent isn't allowed to just go digging through your library to see if you're lying. It's just a nightmare.

With wurm, you're looking through your library already so you can verify that it's there as you cast it, and randomization doesn't matter since you're shuffling it anyway.
Those are fair points. There are rules for how to rewind something that was cast illegally, and it could handle those. I agree it likely would not be worth it.

Honestly the comp rules should just have it start in the command zone. It couldn't return anyway, its not a Commander.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

MRHblue wrote:
3 years ago
Honestly the comp rules should just have it start in the command zone. It couldn't return anyway, its not a Commander.
My guess would be that it's not how they wanted things to work in tournament formats. I think technically the CZ is a place for a card in your deck (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so then you'd...end up with a 59 card deck and still 15 sideboard slots? Or would you need a 61 card deck to accomodate?

I think they went with the version that's simplest for standard play.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
MRHblue wrote:
3 years ago
Honestly the comp rules should just have it start in the command zone. It couldn't return anyway, its not a Commander.
My guess would be that it's not how they wanted things to work in tournament formats. I think technically the CZ is a place for a card in your deck (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so then you'd...end up with a 59 card deck and still 15 sideboard slots? Or would you need a 61 card deck to accomodate?

I think they went with the version that's simplest for standard play.
Emblems and Planes all exist in the Command Zone so there is certainly precedence for "non-commanders" being in the Command Zone. I do agree that the Sideboard is likely easier since everyone knows what the Sideboard is and is already covered in the rules. There is probably a real consideration they wanted to make sure it actually cost you a card somewhere. Putting it into the Command Zone would have been no card slot required. Not a huge difference, but something.

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Post by papa_funk » 3 years ago

The reason that they don't start in the Command Zone is that there's no reason for them to. It's just extra rules. They work exactly how Wizards wants them to without having to talk about random zones.

Making our lives slightly easier is way down on the list of things that are (or should be) taken into account.

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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

If they started in the Command Zone then they wouldn't work how WotC wanted them to in Standard because you'd get a 15 card sideboard (remember the command zone is a valid zone where emblems go) AND your companion.
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