leovold

schweinefett
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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

So i was trying to make a viable "advisors-tribal-stompy" build, with all those 'unplayable' cards like bloodbond march work. So invariably, i went for the persistent petitioners deck. But since i needed U for the petitioners, and BG for bloodbond march, i needed a BUG general. and the only BUG general that exists with creature type advisor is leovold, emissary of trest. And apparently, the guy's banned in EDH.

I don't really understand why. He's not that good, right? He's got that narset clause stuck onto him, with a "if you hit me, i get a card". Is it really all so bad when you compare him to other derevi, edric, animar or jhoira?

Killing the guy isn't exactly hard; he's within bolt range, and creatures are basically the card type that the game has the most removal for. Sure he "replaces himself" when targeted, but not all removal targets (mass removal, council's judgement and so on).

I might have missed exactly why leovold was banned in the first place, but i suspect he's not nearly as bad as people think. I think some peeps just have a hard time accepting power creep as a real thing. But if 2019 is any indication (or even innistrad block), leovold is pretty weak all things considered.

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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

Turning all Timetwister/Wheel effects into Mind Twists is the reason that he is banned.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

He's hideously busted anywhere above 5/10. It's just too easy to break on accident. Even without the narset clause he's a pretty absurd source of card advantage, but the narset clause makes it very difficult to avoid wrecking the table.

The original thought was that people would be able to restrain themselves from playing those effects. The reality unfortunately was not.

I straight up had to refuse to play against it. The only answer was keeping Leovold off the table the entire game, and the result of failure was being mind twisted and topdecking until the leovold player strung together a win. Not being just dead like Animar. And there's really no reason to scoop to the mind twist because drawing out of it is feasible, it's just awful.

It takes a lot to get me to refuse to play against a deck.

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Post by Mimicvat » 4 years ago

Could just house-rule away the narset effect? I don't know why people are so fixated on the 'official rules' for this format when the RC straight up says do what you want.
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Post by ChazA4 » 4 years ago

Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Oh, where to begin from a casual(my) standpoint?

So, he's quick to get out(one of the first commanders usually). Not necessarily a bad thing, but playing the right general, you notice a dynamic change around the table when you drop yours(for instance, I notice a HUGE halt on dropping creatures when I play Merieke Ri Berit.). Seeing Leovold, in CZ or not, will invoke a feeling of dread; he's going to take a LOT of removal to get into the unaffordable range.
BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! He's in green, which makes commander tax less of an issue, particularly since the tax is just 2 each time, instead of colored mana. Add in that he's in black as well, and commander tax really becomes a non-issue.
ACT NOW! OR DIE! Narset clause makes getting rid of him a huge pain, because he's in the perfect color for answers(blue). It's fairly easy to either fateseal your library(I assume that's the correct term? Search for a card, put it on top?) so you draw the answer, or luck out, topdeck and have an answer in response.
WHEELS ARE STANDING BY! As was mentioned, the Mind Twisting is just horrible. More 'huggy' cards such as Jace's Archivist or a Hive Minded Harmonize become completely one-sided. The game just becomes miserable because, as pokken said, you CAN get out of it...but do you really want to suffer through it just for the chance?

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Post by Outcryqq » 4 years ago

He's horrible. I played him.

The first ability is the killer - there are so many wheel effects in those colors (Windfall, Whispering Madness, Dark Deal, Jace's Archivist, Time Spiral, Echo of Eons...) the list goes on. And all these wheels are backed up with green's ramp and blue's counter magic.

The second ability is just gravy - if you target him with removal, they get a card to boot.

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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Leovold, Emissary of Trest was miserable to play against even when not built around. Drawing a card whenever your stuff gets targeted means the value of your opponents' removal goes way down. Spot removal already isn't great from a card advantage standpoint - if you trade a card for one of your opponents' creatures, the other two opponents are effectively up a card. But when they have Leovold out and get their card back? Then the only person down a card is the person that used the removal spell. And of course, this ability applies to every permanent the Leovold player controls, which makes it really hard to answer every problem card they play.

Meanwhile, shutting off your opponents' card draw means they can't dig for answers. Narset, Parter of Veils is also obnoxious, but at least she can be attacked to be removed and doesn't start in the command zone. There are some ways around the effect - tutors, impulsive draw, and Dig Through Time effects that put cards directly into hand - but most decks aren't built with those in mind. And while you could say 'Leovold shuts down greedy card draw spells like Blue Sun's Zenith and Rishkar's Expertise', the truth of the matter is that every deck should be running some card draw, and Leovold invalidates that.

The net effect is that Leovold, just by sticking around, generates a bunch of card advantage for its controller while denying it to its controller's opponents. Which means that Leovold is generally a kill-on-sight commander... except, as previously mentioned, you get punished for killing Leovold. While there are a lot of kill-on-sight commanders, they also tend to be more expensive than Leovold - at three mana, he's really cheap, and in a strong color combination capable of recasting him repeatedly.

....and of course, this is before we even start building around Leovold. Timetwister, Windfall, Teferi's Puzzle Box, and other wheel effects are miserable alongside him, and unless you're packing countermagic or immediate spot removal for Leovold, there aren't a lot of ways to stop it. And once you get your hand Mind Twisted away, it's very hard to get those cards back. And while a wheel will certainly put the Leovold player in a strong position to win, making your opponents lose their hands doesn't actually end the game directly. It's pretty similar to why people hate mass land destruction - if you drag out the game with no clear way to win other than beating down with your 3/3 commander, people are going to be extremely upset.

tl;dr: Leovold is miserable to play against even when not built around. When actively built around, will make people roughly as salty as MLD.

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Post by illakunsaa » 4 years ago

You should play Muldrotha instead.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

When something gets banned pretty quickly, with a huge outcry prompting it, you should probably assume that the card was toxic. You certainly should google "why was leovald banned in commander" before posting. Yeah, I get it, hot takes are fun, but when your hot take comes from a place of admitted ignorance you should, you know, take a minute to look it up first.

Is there an argument to be made for rule zeroing Leovold? Absolutely. A no wheels build isn't that bad. He's still very strong, because the Narset clause is very strong in edh. It shuts down card draw, which is obviously a key part of magic but especially important in this format. That's strong enough to make Narset a good card in edh despite her loyalty ability being just ok and planeswalkers that don't sit in the cz being pretty fragile in the format, and strong enough to make Notion Thief a staple. Leo sits in the command zone, at 3 mana, and doesn't die to a stiff breeze, plus he draws you cards if you try to kill him or anything else you control. But all that isn't banworthy in commander, it just makes him really good. Its only the ability for him to just break the game with about a dozen cards by turn 4, and realistically by turn 3 often enough to matter, that got him banned, because it was miserable. Steadfastly avoid running the cards that break him in half, and make it known what you are up to and that you will not be abusing his first ability, and people might let you run him. Ask if you can run him and just pretend the first ability got errata'd out, you shouldn't have any problem. His second ability is decent, and if he's tribally relevant he's a reasonable commander without the first ability.

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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

I'm not 100% sure about the points taken up (i understand them, of course). Believe me when i say that i'm not trying to do a "hot take" or anything like that. it just feels more like a "I saw him wreck a game once, and i'll never be the same again" sorta banning. Especially if, like you say, that the ban came quickly and swiftly after its release (and therefore didn't allow time for the meta to shift accordingly).

For me, having run against leovold somewhat often in legacy, he's more of a speed bump rather than a game-ending dude. In EDH, we're talking about 2-3 times the number of cards/players against the dude with leovold (and presumably, the probability of the table finding answers is high enough). It's the reason why i brought it up. Every time i see it, regardless of what sort of deck im running, I consider it to be a problem worth noting, for sure, but it's definitely not game-ending or even that resource intensive for me to deal with either.
Maybe it's 'cuz legacy players generally have a higher threshhold of trying to find answers/tech and reacting to the meta/EDH players expecting the game to be more focused on doing their own thing rather than being restricted in their actions.

Sure, it can be miserable to be playing against; but isn't that what makes the game more interesting? trying to crawl out of a (albeit not very deep) hole? Surely more interesting than those UGx "all the value in the world" decks that seem to be everywhere.

Though now that i think about it, I think the problem is that I have a massive disconnect from what people wanna do in EDH. Do I have it along the right lines? In EDH, people just wanna bend the game with as much value as possible, and basically play multiplayer solitaire, whereas I'm expecting more a game of magic, with back and forth action and so on. Am I close?

Edit - I also happen to be completely find with stuff like MLD. Ruination, armageddon, i consider them all to be an integral part of the game.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
Though now that i think about it, I think the problem is that I have a massive disconnect from what people wanna do in EDH. Do I have it along the right lines? In EDH, people just wanna bend the game with as much value as possible, and basically play multiplayer solitaire, whereas I'm expecting more a game of magic, with back and forth action and so on. Am I close?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point but your claim (which is pretty insulting to be honest) is that most players want to play by themselves and just want their decks to go off? While you, on the other, want "real" Magic with back and forth and interaction and fun plays all around? And, you make this claim while simultaneously claiming that a card which actively discourages interaction and encourages Solitaire play by virtue on "combo-ing" with a ton of cards to empty player's hand shouldn't be banned.

It would seem that either you are being pretty disingenuous about what you actually want or you legitimately have no idea how oppressive Leovold is in EDH. Which is pretty scary for someone to be arguing on the basis of him being "pretty weak".

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not 100% sure about the points taken up (i understand them, of course). Believe me when i say that i'm not trying to do a "hot take" or anything like that. it just feels more like a "I saw him wreck a game once, and i'll never be the same again" sorta banning. Especially if, like you say, that the ban came quickly and swiftly after its release (and therefore didn't allow time for the meta to shift accordingly).

For me, having run against leovold somewhat often in legacy, he's more of a speed bump rather than a game-ending dude. In EDH, we're talking about 2-3 times the number of cards/players against the dude with leovold (and presumably, the probability of the table finding answers is high enough). It's the reason why i brought it up. Every time i see it, regardless of what sort of deck im running, I consider it to be a problem worth noting, for sure, but it's definitely not game-ending or even that resource intensive for me to deal with either.
Maybe it's 'cuz legacy players generally have a higher threshhold of trying to find answers/tech and reacting to the meta/EDH players expecting the game to be more focused on doing their own thing rather than being restricted in their actions.

Sure, it can be miserable to be playing against; but isn't that what makes the game more interesting? trying to crawl out of a (albeit not very deep) hole? Surely more interesting than those UGx "all the value in the world" decks that seem to be everywhere.

Though now that i think about it, I think the problem is that I have a massive disconnect from what people wanna do in EDH. Do I have it along the right lines? In EDH, people just wanna bend the game with as much value as possible, and basically play multiplayer solitaire, whereas I'm expecting more a game of magic, with back and forth action and so on. Am I close?

Edit - I also happen to be completely find with stuff like MLD. Ruination, armageddon, i consider them all to be an integral part of the game.
Going into topdeck mode turn 3 doesn't make the game more interesting, it makes it %$#%. The meta DID adjust to Leovold pretty quickly, and that was part of the problem. It was an incredibly centralizing card that forced you to either focus on keeping Leovold off the table or having everyone but Leovold play in topdeck mode all game. Its nothing like Legacy, Leovold is simply not as strong in that format as he was in Commander, and the Legacy meta was better positioned to easily answer him, it being a 4 of format with 60 cards means that decks can have access to a higher concentration of answers for an early Leovold (and that's when they can't just outrace it). 4x FoW and Leovold not being guaranteed by turn 3 is just less oppressive. He warped the format and made it defined by wheels and decks that were built to stop him that if it were any other format he did that to he'd have eaten a ban just as quickly. He was worse for Commander than Wrenn and Six was for Legacy. MLD is nowhere near what he was doing. Its certainly not people seeing him wreck a game and getting salty, he was wrecking every game he showed up in over a period of months (getting banned after months is fast for this format, the RC is typically slow to react because they want to give as much time as possible to let the format figure out answers, but it was clear that wasn't happening with Leovold). He's also stronger in multiplayer, because he draws his controller more cards. One wheel is enough to ensure the controller draws another wheel to maintain a lock, and enough answers to protect him (or mana to recast him if he eats removal a couple times).

Now, it wasn't all Leovold all the time, because people chose not to play him (and since this isn't a tournament format you don't have an incentive to play a deck you don't like so ubiquity of decks tends to be lower), but he was common enough, and ruined games regularly enough, that he was an easy ban.

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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

Ahh gotcha. Seems like ive never seen a tuned leovold deck then. Im still finding it weirdly hard to comprehend how oppressive the guy is, and i guess ill never really find out.

@WizardMN Heh, yea, now that you write it up that way, it does sound pretty douchey. Wasn't my intention to come off that way. Maybe EDH just isn't the format for me anymore. Somehow, it used to be so much more fun.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

OP, every single post you made in this thread is insulting. I think you made this post to bait people and upset people. I get that you like Leovold, but I don't think for a second it is because you want to play Advisor tribal, since everything else you've written is extremely spikey.
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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

To be honest, i don't play EDH to be spikey. That's what legacy is for. You don't have to believe me, but it is what it is. My best/strongest deck is a rakdos the defiler suicide aggro deck. it's not exactly the upper echelons of power (though it is extremely fun to play).

And hey.. i can accept that it is insulting for everyone who happens to read it, but like i said before, i'm genuinely not trying to 'bait clicks' nor do hot takes (and i guess no matter how often i say this, no one will believe me anyways, regardless of how genuine or not i may be). It seems somewhat strange to me that I'm not allowed to have unorthodox views simply based off anecdotal/theory-craft proof (i've not had the pleasure to play against any leovold deck).

Thing is, sure, i can see it theoretically as being problematic, but having run against the 'equivalent' in [i can't remember the name of that 60-card singleton format with a PW as boss], narset PW with wheels and puzzle box, and so on, I've been reserving judgement on theory-craft vs practical, real play. that narset deck really isn't as nutty as it's made out to be.

Anyways, the advisor tribal deck is already built, but with damia as chief. She isn't an advisor, but she sure looks like she could have been an advisor. When i have time, i'll just alter the typeline to have it say gorgon advisor instead.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

%$#%$#% dude, you can't run Narset with wheels in Brawl, the wheels don't exist in standard.

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Post by Rorseph » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
%$#%$#% dude, you can't run Narset with wheels in Brawl, the wheels don't exist in standard.
You can in Oathbreaker, though. ;)
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

I don't want to completely call out schweinefett on their comment on this but Narset + Timetwister (or Windfall) seems pretty much game over to me. I don't think I would even play with anyone that showed up with these two cards in their command zone because it is pretty obvious what they are trying to do and they *will* accomplish it eventually since both cards are always accessible.

So, either they were playing Brawl where onering's comment is correct or they were playing Oathbreaker and the other player decided not to "go for the throat" as it were with their wheels. In which case, the experience of playing against Narset isn't even close to being as bad as it could have been if someone had tried to break it.

And that was the problem with Leovold. He is exceptionally easy to break and it doesn't even require the Leovold player to play the game. They get Leovold down, wheel, and the game just stops. They then take 21 turns to kill everyone (I realize this is hyperbolic). But being in top deck mode on turn 4 (potentially earlier with the right ramp) makes the game suck.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Rorseph wrote:
4 years ago
onering wrote:
4 years ago
%$#%$#% dude, you can't run Narset with wheels in Brawl, the wheels don't exist in standard.
You can in Oathbreaker, though. ;)
I forgot about Oathbreaker. To be fair, I think it would be best if everyone did lol

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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

yea it was oathbreaker.

It wasn't narset + a wheel on the command zone though, it was narset and transmute artifact. It was a turbo teferi's puzzle box build with some number of stax lite and some number of wheels. It seemed strong, but it was far from unbeatable. In that format though (when it was still alive), there was a LOT of answers being packed everywhere. So maybe that had something to do with it.

Anyways, feels like we're beating a dead horse here (and i know i'm mostly to blame for that), but it felt like it was necessary to set the record straight.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Well that makes more sense then

Yes, if people had easy access to answers in the cz then it's easier to keep in check and avoid an early soft lock. That player was also choosing to jump through extra hoops with transmute artifact to grab puzzle box instead of just having windfall in the cz, so he or she specifically built it to be less oppressive. That set up is easier to disrupt, and is much less likely to come down turn 3 or 4. If Leovold wasn't doing it's thing until turn 6, Leovold wouldn't be banned. Needing to deal with it by turn 3 or 4 at instant speed meant that the likelihood of someone having spot removal was too low.

I do think that, eventually, the format would have adjusted to make him less effective, but the problem with that is that the sort of adjustment that was needed would have been so significant that it would have met the centralizing impact criteria. There just wasn't a happy medium where the format could change enough to handle Leovold without changing to revolve around Leovold. Faster, removal heavy decks with cheap commanders, white prison effects like rule of law and spirit of the laberynth, and even playing nekusar just to punish Leovold for drawing cards, and if course just playing more competitive decks capable of winning before Leovold wheels. That would make Leovold kind of suck, but it would also be the opposite of what the RC wants the format to be, fast, homogeneous, and competitive.

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