Maro's commander changes bracket

[DirkGently]

Been a lot of talk about rules changes recently - there have been threads for a lot of these, but I figured I'd put up a megathread for this bracket in particular to see where everyone's opinion is on these issues.

My hot takes:

changing hybrid rules: I don't see the need, and the rules seems unnecessarily complex. Sure, in layman's terms it's not that complicated, but technical rules-wise it sounds like a mess, and we'd have to add a rule that would basically just be the "I want hybrid mana to work" rule. No.

no max deck size: battle of wits seems like a boring way to win if it works, and outside of that, having a smaller deck is correct 99.9% of the time. On the other hand, it really adds no complexity, and other formats have no maximum. I don't really care either way. I guess I'll vote yes, although I dread the endless conversations I'll have to have about whether it's better to have a larger deck sometimes.

sol ring ban: as always, I'll vote yes, though I confess I'm less enthused now that it and crypt are a lynchpin of my beloved Kaervek deck.

non-creature legendaries as commanders: no.

no commander damage: I do find the bookkeeping annoying. And it's rarely that important. Plus I like wincons that other players can contribute to. So I'd prefer a combined commander damage, I think. There are enough fun strats around commander damage that I definitely don't think it should be eliminated.

give advantage to 4th player: too complicated and random. no.

poison total change: poison is garbage already, the consistency is not there with the singleton card pool, let alone 3 opponents. anyone complaining about this is a huge scrub who just wants poison to not even exist. no.

return tuck rule: Given how the rules are written now, it seems like it'd be a deliberate hack to add it back in. We've got a lot more neutralizing enchantments as alternative "your commander is gone forever now bye bye" options. no.

wishboard: This is a tough one. I don't like wishes just being bricks, that's pretty lame. On the other hand, straight up searching your collection is annoying. On the third hand, adding a wishboard is added complexity. In this case, I think it's worth it, though, especially since we'd be removing the "lol your wishes don't work" rule. I'll vote yes.

change mulligan rules: why? The new mulligan is great. no. (My zirilan deck votes to bring back partial paris, though)

life total change: aggro is tough. I see a lot of games where people just deliberately never swing, and wait until they put together their endgame bomb strategy. This is lame. Magic should be a game where numbers matter. Combo should be less good. Aggro should be better. Strong yes.

planeswalkers as commanders: nah.

change to partner tax: honestly I don't see partners as a huge problem. The only ones that are really strong are thrasios and tymna really. Nerfing Ikra just seems rude. Plus all the fun BBD partners. No.

commander death triggers: changing this seems like a rules nightmare. Besides, if your plan is to repeatedly kill your commander, you're better off playing recursion anyway. No. In fact, I'll give this a hell no.

allow silver border: if someone asks I'm almost always down. That said, I sure don't want to see what kind of degenerate crap is going to come around if they were fully legal. Plus I don't particularly want to have an arm wrestling contest in the middle of my LGS. Even if I'd almost certainly win. It's just gauche. no.

[Sinis]

I like Wishes. I think the RC is pretty monumentally opposed, but nothing else on this list appeals to me; I really like the format the way it is.

[Sheldon]

Monumentally opposed is a pretty good characterization.

[schweinefett]

I think wishes should be templated like karn, the great creator (like how they meant for it to work when they first printed them).

Exile is a 'new' zone that wotc added to the game waaaaay later. Wishes like ring of ma'ruf were added to the
game to bring back cards that were lost to the removed from the game. Even back in (whenever this was printed) cunning wish era cards don't reference the exile zone, 'cuz it doesn't exist!

It would be nice to be able to cast say death wish to get back some card that was swordsed, as the original intent probably was. We don't need the excessive rules complexity when it comes to a wishboard.

Wouldn't it be pretty simple to just have a format-level errata saying that cards that reference the 'removed from the game' counts the exile zone too?

[Atraxian]

I don't see a "ban all 'any card' tutors" choice or the more restrictive "ban all non-land tutors"...
I'm ok with restricted tutors like Worldly Tutor, but having the option to tutor any card in your deck kind of defeats the purpose of Commander.

Voted for the Sol Ring ban (and possibly other extremely fast mana artifacts like mana vault and mana crypt) as it is one of those cards that gives you too much of an advantage if you get it early.

Voted for having non-creature, non-planeswalker legends eligible as commanders. Even if it would be better to say non-creature, non-planeswalker legendary PERMANENT as having a legendary spell like Urza's Ruinous Blast as your commander can be a little too oppressive.

[Dunharrow]

I don't see a "ban all 'any card' tutors" choice or the more restrictive "ban all non-land tutors"...
I'm ok with restricted tutors like Worldly Tutor, but having the option to tutor any card in your deck kind of defeats the purpose of Commander.

Agree that a tutor ban could be on the list.

Do you have a problem with cards like Diabolic tutor? My issue with tutors is that so many of them are 1-2 mana, and that there are so many of them. Restricted tutors still make the games repetitive.

[Atraxian]

Admittedly, Diabolic Tutor is the least problematic of the generic tutors.

[cryogen]

Admittedly, Diabolic Tutor is the least problematic of the generic tutors.

Plus that original Odyssey art is awesome.

[lyonhaert]

Admittedly, Diabolic Tutor is the least problematic of the generic tutors.

Plus that original Odyssey art is awesome.

Yes. It. Is. Went out of my way to get one with the black border and everything. :black_heart:

[Atraxian]

True, the snek tutor looks leagues better than derpy Ramsay Bolton and derpy Chandra
Even Rune-Scarred Demon is an ok tutor as it is pretty difficult to cast without a proper setup and at that point there are much better targets for a summon... Unless you play a Kaalia deck and cheat it into play.

[lyonhaert]

True, the snek tutor looks leagues better than derpy Ramsay Bolton and derpy Chandra
Even Rune-Scarred Demon is an ok tutor as it is pretty difficult to cast without a proper setup and at that point there are much better targets for a summon... Unless you play a Kaalia deck and cheat it into play.

The proper way to use Rune-Scarred is not to cast him, of course.

Even then, Sidisi is better.

[DirkGently]

I'm honestly shocked at how many people want commander death triggers.

For starters, there's only a few commanders that care. Basically it boils down to elenda, the dusk rose, child of alara, roalesk, apex hybrid, and the kamigawa dragons (also technically tuktuk the explorer but he's incredibly garbage so I doubt anyone would play him anyway). And Elenda and child are both already in colors that can easily recur them - and are almost certainly going to be better decks for running that recursion rather than recasting increasingly expensive commanders from the CZ. So the actual number of affected commanders is quite low.

Secondarily, trying to implement the rule would be a bit of a tricky bastard. The presumably simplest fix would be to change the replacement to a trigger, which is easy enough for grave and exile, but gets a little weird when you're talking about bounce, and especially when talking about tuck. It gets shuffled into your library...and then triggers IN your library...and then you go find it in your library and put it in the CZ? Do you have to shuffle your library? Is it a replacement for hand/deck but a trigger for grave/exile? Plus it makes stifle and co WAAAAY overpowered since it becomes trivial to strand a commander in the grave or even exile. They'd essentially become the new tuck, except ONLY blue, the best color, gets them. Am I missing some better, more obvious solution? Because this seems like a huge mess tbh. Especially for just a couple commanders.

Thirdly, I don't even buy it from a flavor perspective. If your commander died, why are they coming back - especially if you're mono-blue and presumably don't have unseen necromantic powers? I always took command-zoning to be more equivalent to falling back to lick their wounds and regenerate their strength or something.

I don't see a "ban all 'any card' tutors" choice or the more restrictive "ban all non-land tutors"...

I was just coping down Maro's list. He didn't include that one.

Also my Kaervek deck would like to cordially invite you to keep your filthy mitts off my tutors, thanks.

[pokken]

I just don't like the aesthetic of what happens when your commander leaves play. I dislike the way they interact with the imprint rule as well.

Honestly I'm not 100 percent sure it wouldn't be better to abandon the replacement effect rule entirely and make the tax be a special game action that moves them back to the zone at sorcery speed from anywhere except your control on the battlefield. So you want your dude off my mimic vat you have to pay. But you can pay to take it back from gilded drake too so blue isn't so damned op against commanders.

If you use unique sleeve on your commander it's easy to find in the library with no shuffling. Can blind cut if it was shuffled in there.

I'm still noodling on solutions but the replacement effect as is is still unbalanced as awkward.

Iirc you can still mindslaver bone someone's commander into exile too. Rule is yucktown.

[DirkGently]

I just don't like the aesthetic of what happens when your commander leaves play. I dislike the way they interact with the imprint rule as well.

Honestly I'm not 100 percent sure it wouldn't be better to abandon the replacement effect rule entirely and make the tax be a special game action that moves them back to the zone at sorcery speed from anywhere except your control on the battlefield. So you want your dude off my mimic vat you have to pay. But you can pay to take it back from gilded drake too so blue isn't so damned op against commanders.

If you use unique sleeve on your commander it's easy to find in the library with no shuffling. Can blind cut if it was shuffled in there.

I'm still noodling on solutions but the replacement effect as is is still unbalanced as awkward.

Iirc you can still mindslaver bone someone's commander into exile too. Rule is yucktown.

Ok, so mind control doesn't work but imprisoned in the moon still does?

If your commander is shuffled into your deck, the exact position is not supposed to be known. Even if you blind cut, you still know if it's near the top of your library afterward, and that could change how you play the game. Maybe you don't crack a fetch because it's on top, for example. That was true in the tuck days too, which is why I never used unique sleeves for my commander. But with your proposed rule it would get even worse since you'd always have the option to return it to the CZ...or not, if you see it's near the top. No no no no no.

I don't see how the replacement effect is unbalanced or awkward. Nor am I seeing a problem with imprint. Care to explain? I also don't see any problem "aesthetically"...as I said, just imagine your commander is regenerating instead of dying. Why doesn't that work for you, aesthetically? It makes a lot more sense to me than your rule would.

If you want to mindslaver a commander into exile, you'd need mindslaver and a way to exile it. That's a lot of setup for what, against many decks, won't be that much payoff. Yes, it's annoying, and don't let me stop anyone from banning mindslaver, but it's certainly a pretty narrow corner case to justify such a massive rules shift.

[Atraxian]

Tutors discussion aside, I wonder if Commander ruling and banlist should actually be managed by WotC directly or not.
The present commission is fine and all, but it's been clear that from when WotC took wind of EDH popularity they have been wanting to wrap their tentacles around it:
- Official Commander Events
- Official Commander Products (with upcoming draft commander set being the most 'in your face' yet)
- Watered Down Commander (Brawl) fully managed by WotC
- Cards that actually bend or break the basic rules of Commander (Partner, Eminence, Planeswalker commanders ecc...)
Just to list some.
I'm personally conflicted on the matter, because on one side, WotC doesn't have a very good track record for recent bans and rules managing, on the other side, they can't really let a third party manage the rules of a format if that format is more and more popular and becoming something actually official.

[cryogen]

I'm honestly shocked at how many people want commander death triggers.

For starters, there's only a few commanders that care. Basically it boils down to elenda, the dusk rose, child of alara, roalesk, apex hybrid, and the kamigawa dragons (also technically tuktuk the explorer but he's incredibly garbage so I doubt anyone would play him anyway). And Elenda and child are both already in colors that can easily recur them - and are almost certainly going to be better decks for running that recursion rather than recasting increasingly expensive commanders from the CZ. So the actual number of affected commanders is quite low.

Secondarily, trying to implement the rule would be a bit of a tricky bastard. The presumably simplest fix would be to change the replacement to a trigger, which is easy enough for grave and exile, but gets a little weird when you're talking about bounce, and especially when talking about tuck. It gets shuffled into your library...and then triggers IN your library...and then you go find it in your library and put it in the CZ? Do you have to shuffle your library? Is it a replacement for hand/deck but a trigger for grave/exile? Plus it makes stifle and co WAAAAY overpowered since it becomes trivial to strand a commander in the grave or even exile. They'd essentially become the new tuck, except ONLY blue, the best color, gets them. Am I missing some better, more obvious solution? Because this seems like a huge mess tbh. Especially for just a couple commanders.

Thirdly, I don't even buy it from a flavor perspective. If your commander died, why are they coming back - especially if you're mono-blue and presumably don't have unseen necromantic powers? I always took command-zoning to be more equivalent to falling back to lick their wounds and regenerate their strength or something.

I don't see a "ban all 'any card' tutors" choice or the more restrictive "ban all non-land tutors"...

I was just coping down Maro's list. He didn't include that one.

Also my Kaervek deck would like to cordially invite you to keep your filthy mitts off my tutors, thanks.

I voted for it because I don't think that there are currently any cards outside of Child of Alara that would become problematic with this change, and it would give WotC more freedom to design legendary creatures without them being nerfed due to Commander.

I realize that this is a change that from a rules standpoint is likely very difficult, as evidenced by all the different scenarios that would have to be taken into account with potential changes. But it's something worth exploring and brainstorming.

[DirkGently]

I voted for it because I don't think that there are currently any cards outside of Child of Alara that would become problematic with this change, and it would give WotC more freedom to design legendary creatures without them being nerfed due to Commander.

I realize that this is a change that from a rules standpoint is likely very difficult, as evidenced by all the different scenarios that would have to be taken into account with potential changes. But it's something worth exploring and brainstorming.

I don't know that it's really that restrictive. They've got the options to do "when it dies, do X then exile it", or "when it leaves the battlefield do X", or if they really want to get clunky that could just say "when it dies or goes to the command zone do X" None of those have precisely the same results as if commanders died and then went to the CZ as a trigger or something, but they're pretty close (well, leaves the battlefield is a bit different with blink of course, but the other two are very close).

Speaking as someone who played a lot of child of alara back when I was younger and more misanthropic, child of alara is at its most powerful when you aren't paying escalating amounts of mana to recur it. corpse dance is almost certainly superior to recasting from the CZ even if it did trigger that way. If you're CZing you're probably only wiping the board a couple times a game. If you're dancing it, you're wiping the board until everyone quits in disgust.

As I pointed out (I think accurately but feel free to double check me) there are only a handful of commanders affected at all - the kami dragons, big baby, elenda (which I suspect is the only one anyone cares about), tuktuk, and roalesk. Given the small number affected, it's hardly a surprise that few cards would become problematic. Especially since the nature of the change would only enable less-repetitive (and likely less powerful) versions of those decks. Kokusho with (my favorite) corpse dance is pretty nasty. Kokusho coming back for 8 and then 10 and then 12...much less nasty.

I think by far the biggest concerns aren't accidentally breaking any commanders, but:
-the complexity of any change that would make it work as "expected"
-the potentially significant changes to strategy in the format such a change could create
-the trifling justification for doing so, given how few commanders - and even fewer interesting commanders - would benefit

[cryogen]

No I agree that only a small handful are affected, and of them I think Child is the most problematic and would need to have an eye kept on it. I also agree with your concerns, but I think the last one isn't a concern and instead a benefit because it opens design space for future commanders to benefit (which, admittedly could become a concern down the road).

[pokken]

If your commander is shuffled into your deck, the exact position is not supposed to be known. Even if you blind cut, you still know if it's near the top of your library afterward, and that could change how you play the game. Maybe you don't crack a fetch because it's on top, for example. That was true in the tuck days too, which is why I never used unique sleeves for my commander. But with your proposed rule it would get even worse since you'd always have the option to return it to the CZ...or not, if you see it's near the top. No no no no no.

I don't see how the replacement effect is unbalanced or awkward. Nor am I seeing a problem with imprint. Care to explain? I also don't see any problem "aesthetically"...as I said, just imagine your commander is regenerating instead of dying. Why doesn't that work for you, aesthetically? It makes a lot more sense to me than your rule would.

If you want to mindslaver a commander into exile, you'd need mindslaver and a way to exile it. That's a lot of setup for what, against many decks, won't be that much payoff. Yes, it's annoying, and don't let me stop anyone from banning mindslaver, but it's certainly a pretty narrow corner case to justify such a massive rules shift.

I'm a bit iffy on the rule about what to do with a commander in your library -

Each deck has a legendary creature card designated as its commander. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself. The card retains this designation even when it changes zones.

Feels like it implies you need to be a known property of the card? I dunno. We've had lots of arguments over this and not heard an authoritative ruling. Have you seen one?

We've largely settled on blind cuts with different colored sleeves for commanders, and it happens so rarely it doesn't matter.

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I find the effect awkward because it shuts off lots of effects with no real distinction. I can't duplicant your commander because he goes to the command zone, I can't mimic vat it when he dies. It doesn't really behave like a creature anymore, except if it's on the battlefield.

It's purely aesthetic to me so I don't think you're going to win an argument with me on it - I've never really liked how it it shuts off some things but not others, and that started way back when Tuck worked but killing didn't. Feels like...sloppy?

I feel like somewhere out there there's a solution that doesn't just arbitrarily elevate some approaches to dealing with commanders or arbitrarily make overpowered commanders too hard to stop. We've kinda swung toward the OP commanders too hard to stop/slow down side of the spectrum since Tuck got removed, but Blue remains pretty OP at dealing with commanders due to the theft effects all clustering in there.

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The mindslaver scenario comes up the most often for me because I play emrakul, the promised end frequently, so I can 99% send their commander to the graveyard by swinging it into Emrakul on the taken turn.

I choose not to do that because I'm not a fan of that outcome, but it's not hard to set up.

[Dunharrow]

You can make the replacement effect a triggered ability instead. You can also separate going to the graveyard from all other zone changes.

Rule 7: If a commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead.

Just take graveyard off the list, and add rule 7.1: When a commander goes to the graveyard from anywhere, its owner may move it to the command zone.


It is honestly the cleanest way to do it. It makes it less neat, but in my opinion gameplay should trump everything else.


DG - what is the source for 'Maro's list'? I am surprised how long it is.

[onering]

I agree with Dunharrow. I'd also like to add that besides the commanders it currently matters for, and those that could be designed if the rule is changed, there's also all the cards in the 99 that care about death triggers, and it can really mess up math when three commanders are on the field and don't count. It's typically minor, but when it does come up it leads to counterintuitive feel bads.

[Mookie]

I'd be in favor of three of these changes - 'give advantage to 4th player', 'changes to partner tax', and 'commander death triggers'.

Re: death triggers - I'll agree that there is a very large design space for legendary creatures with death triggers, and altering the rules to support them would open up that space. Templating like Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero looks... pretty bad, and also makes the card weaker in non-commander formats, which makes it less likely that something like it would be printed in Standard. The templating may be messy, but I think any side effects would be fairly benign (unlike, for example, altering the hybrid rules or banning tutors, which would have a lot of painful side effects and implications).

However, in addition to creatures that directly have death triggers, I'll also point to the plethora of other cards which care about creatures dying - Skullclamp, Last Laugh, Massacre Girl, Grave Pact, Heirloom Blade, Gift of Immortality, Fecundity, Vicious Shadows... and many, many others. Black decks can run enough creature recursion to occasionally make it viable for you to send your commander to the graveyard for value, but it's much more difficult to justify doing so for other colors, which can make those cards awkward.

[pokken]

You can make the replacement effect a triggered ability instead. You can also separate going to the graveyard from all other zone changes.

Rule 7: If a commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead.

Just take graveyard off the list, and add rule 7.1: When a commander goes to the graveyard from anywhere, its owner may move it to the command zone.


It is honestly the cleanest way to do it. It makes it less neat, but in my opinion gameplay should trump everything else.


DG - what is the source for 'Maro's list'? I am surprised how long it is.

The problem is that if it's a triggered ability it can be stifled or shut off by hushbringer (if you left graveyard in).

[Myllior]

I went for giving advantage to the 4th player, although I'd actually be in favour of a solution that provides a scaling benefit for each player after 1st, with maximum benefit for the last player in turn order. I think nothing, nothing, nothing, benefit would too easily create this weird situation where first and last are the best places to be in the turn order.

I also went for commander death triggers, obviously assuming we can come up with some neat enough way to deal with it. This may be a silly question, but could we not rule it as a special action? It might be crude, but piggybacking off Dunharrow's Rule 7.1 it could be something like,

7.1: When a commander goes to the graveyard from anywhere, its owner may move it to the command zone. This is a special action that does not use the stack and is not an ability.

[DirkGently]

@cryogen

Ok so....you're just ignoring almost everything I said and restating what you said before?

@pokken

I'm not 100% on what the RC would say about the issue. To be honest I think there's a decent chance that they'd say you do get to know where it is at all times. I've disagreed strongly with them on that front since I started playing the format (I believe sheldon advocated using a different colored sleeve) although it matters a lot less with tuck gone. Shuffling, when you've never looked at any cards in your library, should not be a tactical move. Someone shouldn't be able to see your commander is on top of your deck and then path to exile another creature to reshuffle it. You shouldn't be holding back a fetch because you know your commander is on top after a shuffle. Nor pathing your own creature when it's not. Not to mention, I dislike any rule that's relying on someone being able to manipulate cards without looking, it's tantamount to manual dexterity. Plus, unless someone is taking multiple blind shuffles, they could easily guess a rough approximation of where the card is and either force it near the top or the bottom while being impossible to prove. Just ew. So much ew.

Why can't you duplicant a commander? It works just fine as removal, lots of commanders aren't bigger than a 2/4 anyways. Anyway none of your proposed solutions - or probably any solution - change that. At best you get it imprinted for one turn which, barring haste or a fling or something, isn't going to matter. Same thing for other imprinted cards, I'm not sure what solution you want. If you'd rather imprint your commander on a mimic vat you can, it's allowed. You get the choice. Saying "oh yeah, sure, let's send my commander to the shadow realm" and then later going "you know what, naw, let's go ahead and get him back from the shadow realm" feels pretty...ugh. To say nothing of the major strategy implications such a change would create.

What did your playgroup do to you that made you want to play emrakul as your commander? I feel like, for that to be justified, they'd need to have murdered your dead girlfriend's puppy in front of your eyes or something.

@Myllior

Special actions are actions, not triggers. Something you initiate when you have priority. What you've written is a trigger. You'd want something closer to a state based effect, like when tokens poof after hitting the yard.

Could wotc rewrite the rules of the game to make it work? Sure. Screw it, they could just ignore the rules altogether and say "when a commander goes to the command zone from the battlefield, it triggers all 'dies' triggers as though it had died." That'd probably be a lot cleaner than any of these other suggested rules.