State of the Format 2020

[toctheyounger]

It's pretty well established that the cEDH meta is chock full of Flash and not much else.

I guess I should change my screenname to quibblebot, but it's not really nearly as uniform as the sky-is-falling crowd makes it out to be. Honestly, Oracle feels like it buffed Consult by reducing its cost by typically 2 mana and a card way more than it buffed Flash Hulk.

In my meta the Kess player is killing it. Hulk turns every game into a grind and Kess dominates the grind by having the inevitability of being able to force through a Yawg's will with 7 counterspells in the bin (because of the ability to just re-cast the yawg's will from the yard, for example).

I am sleeving up the accepted Sushi hulk deck to give it a go soon but the people on it in my meta are not winning as much as you'd expect.

Fair enough. I know very little about cEDH other than what I hear, so I'm at the whim of all the hype. I guess in that respect it's nice to hear that it's not all-pervasive.

It does sound like the sort of thing I would personally hate to face down - just a win that you have virtually no way to respond to.

[pokken]

It's part of the core problem of cedh honestly. Too many ways to win on the stack means blue is critical.

Pods with fewer than three blue players are like a different animal entirely.

[Card Slinger J]

I'm currently working on a forums solution.

I'm guessing the forums solution is just going to be social media outlets with reddit, Twitter, and Facebook?

[onering]

A tiny slice of the community thinks that the format should revolve around the tournament scene

Again, most cEDH players understand this, it's a minority of them that think that only tournaments matter in an explicitly casual format.

Not to overly quibble or anything but I haven't seen many people obsessed with the tournament scene so much as specifically the state of highest level play. I play CEDH quite a bit and we almost never have tournaments--easily 50-1 tournament games to non-tournament games.

What I have seen on Reddit is largely three groups of CEDH players:

1) We accept the RC's charter as for the casual meta and do not care if they ban flash

--> This is me, and a very small subset of the vocal reddit population

2) We accept the RC's charter for the casual meta but believe they should make an exception for (1-3 cards including flash and 0-2 others), and we are varying degrees of upset about the neglect in not doing this (from volcano of rage to slightly irked).

--> This group is the biggest

3) We disagree with the RC's charter entirely and want the format regulated for competitive play by another group,

--> This group is smaller than group 1 but 10 times as loud and on average 20 times as obnoxious

The last group is big enough to be a group imho to be 'labeled' since I see all kinds of people slinging things like 'wotc should take over the format and regulate it for tournaments and leave rule 0 for filthy casuals.'

Honestly, I do think it is very important not to paint group 2 (who has a point) with the group 3 brush. And there is surely a subset of group 3 who have some decent points and are polite about it, but it has not really been my experience with numerous folks of this view I have encountered.

** I'll admit that at times I have not been a huge fan of the RC's take on things and still have doubts about how the relationship between them and WOTC can continue to work long term. That said, the more I have watched this drama unfold and also learned more about WOTC's rather liimited understanding of commander balancing, I am flipped back pretty hard toward supporting RC's continued existence. Just the fact that they have stood pat and refused to make kneejerk responses to the competitive parade really raised my estimation of them.

I want to be clear, my ire is reserved solely for group 3. Group 1 doesn't really care because they accept edh as a casual format and have fun breaking it, so since they aren't complaining they aren't really the ones with concerns. Group 2 is who I paint as the reasonable cEDH crowd whose concerns should be listened to and addressed in a way that doesn't compromise the format. Banning Flash, for me, would need to rest at least partially on casual concerns, but im open to cEDH concerns tipping it into a ban. I could see the RC saying something along the lines of "Flash has some problematic casual interactions (turn 2 omniscience is just dumb), and while that hasn't yet risen to the level of a ban on its own, when taken with the extremely negative impacts it has on the more competitive end of the format a ban is warranted. This latter consideration is not intended to balance the more competitive side of things, but to make sure we treat those players who enjoy a more cutthroat playstyle the same as more casual players: by keeping the format fun and creating an environment to play how they want. Balance isn't necessary for this, but Flash combos have become so dominant and so omnipresent as to turn the top of the format into a race to cast flash first, and it's taking the fun and excitement out of that segment of the format. Given that it also has negative impacts on more casual metas, we don't feel the need to wait until it begins ruining the format for a broader segment of the playerbase to take action." That sets a precedent that doesn't change the core of the format but does open the door to helping out cEDH (rather than just solving the immediate problem). I could also see Hulk just eating an easy ban as it was banned before and they can just say the experiment in unbanning it failed, though I'm not sure how much better flash into NO Giant is.

[Sheldon]

Agree for the most part with pokken's take on the voices of the cEDH crowd. Fortunately, there are many reasonable ones, and those are the ones that tend to get listened to. If you strongly disagree with us but aren't a raving lunatic, we're going to hear what you have to say. Dissenting opinions well formed get heard.

I'm also curious about what doubts you might have regarding our relationship with WotC.

[Sheldon]

I'm currently working on a forums solution.

I'm guessing the forums solution is just going to be social media outlets with reddit, Twitter, and Facebook?

I'd like there to be something a little more robust in terms of archiving. We'll see. That thought may be the product of a bygone era never to return.

[pokken]

I'm also curious about what doubts you might have regarding our relationship with WotC.

I'll try to keep this pretty brief -- but my concerns with the independent banlist chiefly regard how you guys are essentially responsible for the health of a large portion of their revenue stream. As a group you are not (directly) financially rewarded for maintaining it which I think is unfair. I'm not sure how sustainable it is long term for you guys to shepherd this format for Wizards essentially for free, but I see the potential conflict where they might see you as having particular obligations if you were funded by them in some way.

It goes the other way too, which is that you guys are disconnected from WOTC officially but if there were enough loudly screaming players I feel like they would feel obligated to try to impact your choices in some way, even informally.

As Commander becomes a larger and larger share of their revenue I think the incentive for them to try to assert some measure of control grows. I think there is a lot of potential tension there in that relationship. Less so when Commander is booming, probably more so as/if it starts to wane in popularity.

It feels like you have a pretty healthy equilibrium right now, but it feels precariously balanced to me. That's obviously just an outsider's view, but fundamentally my experience has been that things that depend on donated labor like this have a shelf life. Moreso when an outside party has a big financial stake in the fruits of that labor.

[Hermes_]

Agree for the most part with pokken's take on the voices of the cEDH crowd. Fortunately, there are many reasonable ones, and those are the ones that tend to get listened to. If you strongly disagree with us but aren't a raving lunatic, we're going to hear what you have to say. Dissenting opinions well formed get heard.

I spent a good hour on the cEDH reddit discord asking questions about flash and it was a much better environment than the general subreddit. I came away thinking that the issue is that people are running event with prizes on the line,and the bigger events like magicfest etc drive folks to play flash,when local groups have in a lot of cases used rule 0 to "soft ban" flash.

[Settemio]

I'm guessing the forums solution is just going to be social media outlets with reddit, Twitter, and Facebook?

I'd like there to be something a little more robust in terms of archiving. We'll see. That thought may be the product of a bygone era never to return.

I mean, we're communicating on a message board right now. I don't believe our era is bygone just yet. smiliemoji

[Card Slinger J]

I'm currently working on a forums solution.

I'm guessing the forums solution is just going to be social media outlets with reddit, Twitter, and Facebook?

I'd like there to be something a little more robust in terms of archiving. We'll see. That thought may be the product of a bygone era never to return.

The problem is that Social Media isn't designed for conversation. It's designed for performance only. When two people talk publicly on Social Media only 10% are talking to each other while the other 90% are talking to the theoretical audience. Message Board Forums don't sort out unpopular comments, they don't give you scores to rank yourself, most of the comments you make to someone else on a Forum will have literally no acknowledgement that anyone who didn't reply to you ever read your post. That's what lets you talk to people, rather than the audience.

Something we all value from Message Board Forums is that while writers have always been free to dump their thoughts in a careless manner, the mechanics of Message Boards don't encourage it to the extent that Social Media does. There are people out there who'd much rather prefer to craft their posts in such a way that their ideas are shared with as much clarity and refinement as possible. Nobody knows why that is where as Message Board Forums are just better for having conversations regardless of what young millennial's think where it's all about instant gratification to them.

[toctheyounger]

The problem is that Social Media isn't designed for conversation. It's designed for performance only. When two people talk publicly on Social Media only 10% are talking to each other while the other 90% are talking to the theoretical audience. Message Board Forums don't sort out unpopular comments, they don't give you scores to rank yourself, most of the comments you make to someone else on a Forum will have literally no acknowledgement that anyone who didn't reply to you ever read your post. That's what lets you talk to people, rather than the audience.

Something we all value from Message Board Forums is that while writers have always been free to dump their thoughts in a careless manner, the mechanics of Message Boards don't encourage it to the extent that Social Media does. There are people out there who'd much rather prefer to craft their posts in such a way that their ideas are shared with as much clarity and refinement as possible. Nobody knows why that is where as Message Board Forums are just better for having conversations regardless of what young millennial's think where it's all about instant gratification to them.

Pretty hard to argue most of this (aside from the milennials thing, social media has its hooks in people of all ages). It's a frustrating thing, as it seems like there's a definite choice between conveying your communications to a broad swathe of your audience and risking vitriolic bile back in response, or reaching a few and having reasonable discussion. You can do both, but the masses have the capacity to really make it tough to want to engage. Say one thing about these guys on the RC and CAG, they have some damn thick skin.

I guess it's good to know that our words are heard just as much as the mob. To my mind though it's still lamentable that the RC and CAG catch the sort of abuse that we've seen in the last year or so. But hey, that's the internet in this day and age sadly. I don't personally think forums will die anytime soon for our game or our format. There's no way you get anywhere near the sort of critique and analysis available here on any sort of social media platform, be it IG, Twitter or FB.

[cryogen]

For me, the biggest draw to a traditional forum is the ability to have things archived, as Sheldon mentioned. It sucks that we lost all the old ban list announcements from the past decade, and while I have the basic info from each of them (i.e. the actual changes made), I can't go back and quote them for a citation. Similarly, if Sheldon says something on Facebook, there is very little chance I can successfully go back and find that quote short of hours upon hours of searching combined with lots of luck.

I think it just boils down to whether people are content with being able to have discussions in real time at the expense of a sense of permanence.

[onering]

You can actually have real time conversations on message boards, it's just a bit more difficult because fewer people use them. The real advantage of social media like Reddit and Facebook is that they are walled gardens. If I post here, and then go off to a smash brothers forum, I won't know that someone responded to me. If I post on a commander subreddit then go to a smash subreddit, I'll still see when someone responds to my post. If I post on a magic Facebook group then go off to a friend's page and start chatting with them about whatever, I'll see a notification that someone responded to my post. It's being able to keep track of the conversation while doing something unrelated that makes real time convos easier on social media. On message boards there's the expectation that you won't get an immediate response so you don't stick around to check and you may not even stick around on that message board. The archival nature of message boards is irreplaceable though, and losing it weakens the nature of the internet.

[cryogen]

You can actually have real time conversations on message boards, it's just a bit more difficult because fewer people use them. The real advantage of social media like Reddit and Facebook is that they are walled gardens. If I post here, and then go off to a smash brothers forum, I won't know that someone responded to me. If I post on a commander subreddit then go to a smash subreddit, I'll still see when someone responds to my post. If I post on a magic Facebook group then go off to a friend's page and start chatting with them about whatever, I'll see a notification that someone responded to my post. It's being able to keep track of the conversation while doing something unrelated that makes real time convos easier on social media. On message boards there's the expectation that you won't get an immediate response so you don't stick around to check and you may not even stick around on that message board. The archival nature of message boards is irreplaceable though, and losing it weakens the nature of the internet.

Yeah, I've had quite a few decent conversations on Twitter and Discord (and to a lesser extent Facebook). They can turn to chaotic dogpiles sometimes, which I don't care for. But more importantly, they're next to impossible to go back to later on. There have been a number of times when I'll tell my wife about some current events tweet I saw from a day ago and can't find it to show her.

So for me it's a mixed bag. I love the ability to basically tweet at someone and get a fast answer or perhaps a conversation, but if it is something that I want to document, I'd rather have a forum structure.