[Speculation] Ban List Update Prediction Thread

[Airi]

I think you're spot on, especially with that last bit

But I bolded that quote because I think it finds the crux of the problem: cEDH is its own format, yet its proponents want the stewards of an entirely different format to manage it for them. Also, onering made a good point earlier that there are plenty of banned cards that probably shouldn't be banned in cEDH.

cEDH players want a markedly different play experience that is incongruent with that of Commander. They should be able to have it, but they should also be the ones to manage it.

I don't really think it's correct to think of cEDH, casual, 75%, and whatever else there is in EDH as all separate formats. Regardless of the RC's views on what they envision EDH as that, how widespread it is means that it has largely grown pas that. That isn't to say one way to play is any more valid than the other, but it's not like the banlist needs to discount entire methods of playing the game either. They can occasionally throw cEDH a bone, especially concerning cards like Flash or Demonic Consultation that don't particularly impact most EDH players, without deciding to just up and ban for cEDH and cEDH only.

It's kind of the beauty of EDH that it is such a wide format in terms of the range it's played at, and I don't really see it as a positive to just discount people's desire to play. As an added note, cEDH branching off and making it's own ban list will absolutely kill it, the same way that variant EDH formats are dead.

[pokken]

I don't really think it's correct to think of cEDH, casual, 75%, and whatever else there is in EDH as all separate formats. Regardless of the RC's views on what they envision EDH as that, how widespread it is means that it has largely grown pas that. That isn't to say one way to play is any more valid than the other, but it's not like the banlist needs to discount entire methods of playing the game either. They can occasionally throw cEDH a bone, especially concerning cards like Flash or Demonic Consultation that don't particularly impact most EDH players, without deciding to just up and ban for cEDH and cEDH only.

It's kind of the beauty of EDH that it is such a wide format in terms of the range it's played at, and I don't really see it as a positive to just discount people's desire to play. As an added note, cEDH branching off and making it's own ban list will absolutely kill it, the same way that variant EDH formats are dead.

I think the bolded part is potentially true, and while I have heard people ask for that, I think it's the minority of CEDHers that are asking for a total change in philosophy. But I think that even a subtle change in philosophy -- and the document would have to change to admit any CEDH bans -- is a big risk that now you put into conflict the two groups (casual vs. competitive). ( Not getting into the further subdivisions between casual )

I don't see how you fairly quantify casual impact; at what point does a card not affect casual enough to be a possible competitive ban?

I know for a fact that there are people who play flash non-competitively. How many do there have to be before they get priority?

And then you have a recipe for a mean-spirited rivalry and competition for attention from the RC. Just recently we got a ban on paradox engine that came from the other side; it impacted competitive play negatively to ban it, but casual play (VERY, in my experience) positively.
That ban might not have been possible and the CEDH community still resents it by and large.

[Airi]

Generally speaking, flash is in like what... 2% of EDH decks, and most of those are competitive lists? I would argue that's a fair card to target. It affects a minimum of players. If we go by the fact that people play cards, nothing should be banned and rule 0 should rule the format (I'm largely against rule 0, fwiw, just following the thought train).

I don't really see a need for rivalry, tbh. It's silly to me. Regardless of which side of the imaginary fence of competitive or casual you place yourself on, the fact is that none of us really play EDH the same way. If you played in my meta, you would have a completely different game experience, and again if you played in a cEDH meta, a different store, a die hard battle cruiser meta, etc.

As for the Paradox Engine comment, try to keep in mind that it removed a set of decks that, while not on par with Flash-Hulk decks, was somewhat viable if not lower tiered, which makes the flash hulk problem worse. The irritation was less about the card being banned, when it boils down to it, and more about it making the existing problem worse for them. Most cEDH players I've spoken to recognize that there are cards that are going to be banned for the general EDH population, and usually it's not a thing that causes huge amounts of friction there. This is more of a case of leading into a bigger problem for them.

[pokken]

Generally speaking, flash is in like what... 2% of EDH decks, and most of those are competitive lists? I would argue that's a fair card to target. It affects a minimum of players. If we go by the fact that people play cards, nothing should be banned and rule 0 should rule the format (I'm largely against rule 0, fwiw, just following the thought train).

I don't really see a need for rivalry, tbh. It's silly to me. Regardless of which side of the imaginary fence of competitive or casual you place yourself on, the fact is that none of us really play EDH the same way. If you played in my meta, you would have a completely different game experience, and again if you played in a cEDH meta, a different store, a die hard battle cruiser meta, etc.

As for the Paradox Engine comment, try to keep in mind that it removed a set of decks that, while not on par with Flash-Hulk decks, was somewhat viable if not lower tiered, which makes the flash hulk problem worse. The irritation was less about the card being banned, when it boils down to it, and more about it making the existing problem worse for them. Most cEDH players I've spoken to recognize that there are cards that are going to be banned for the general EDH population, and usually it's not a thing that causes huge amounts of friction there. This is more of a case of leading into a bigger problem for them.

Yeah, as far as I can tell of those 2%, 86% have Hulk, and the majority of those are competitive (though not all).

I think "none of us really play EDH the same way" is not really as true as it used to be; the existing EDH banlist has really fostered a pretty similar collective understanding of the game across regions in my experience. I didn't have to make massive changes to my decks to play in the new meta when I moved 2500 miles from Phoenix to Erie. I had similar experiences playing in Vegas and playing in San Diego. Most people are playing similarly enough to play together as long as they're not playing no-holds-barred.

My experience with CEDH is fairly extensive now and I feel like the format is doomed to be solved no matter what; some variant of UB combo-control will always be the strongest, and it's not likely to be super close.

My suspicion is that if the CEDH community wins the flash battle they will eventually get stale again and need to address something else. And with the speed they churn on ideas now I expect you will see that happen sooner rather than later.

As a CEDH player I would love not to have every game be about flash but I'm not sure I want to be a part of the argument about ad nauseam 2 years from now

[Airi]

I am just very against alienating portions of our community, because we disagree with the way they play. I also disagree that EDH at large is the same. I play in predominantly pick up groups, and finding a fair game is a nightmare and a half. Perhaps that's just my own experience, or the way I build and/or play my decks.

Just, something about arguing we discount other player's experience within the format doesn't sit right with me. If the RC only catered to cEDH from the start and didn't deal with cards like Prophet of Kruphix or whatnot, and we were the minority, it'd feel pretty bad to be told that we're invalid for the way we play, right? EDH to me isn't about being a casual wonderland, it's about self expression through deck creation, and that's a thing that I think should be open to all. A lot of the way our community at large has responded to cEDH in general comes of as extremely toxic to me, and I'm extremely sad that we've created a divide like this for a format we all love.

Edit: Given my passion for the topic at hand, I'm probably going to bow out after this. I'm clearly in the minority on the topic, and would rather not let said passion (or frustration) get the better of me here.

[Sinis]

My experience with CEDH is fairly extensive now and I feel like the format is doomed to be solved no matter what; some variant of UB combo-control will always be the strongest, and it's not likely to be super close.

My suspicion is that if the CEDH community wins the flash battle they will eventually get stale again and need to address something else. And with the speed they churn on ideas now I expect you will see that happen sooner rather than later.

This has always been my main argument against banning flash. Banning Flash really will just reveal the next bogeyman, and it's pretty much inevitable, especially the way eternal formats go.

You can call it a slippery slope argument, but, I don't think it's untrue in this case. Flash was banned for a long time, and I would not call the cEDH format healthy. Before partners, it was rife with 5-colour proxy generals for the colours.

People say that cEDH would only need a little bit of curation and stewardship, but, I think anyone who says that is vastly underestimating the competitive needs of a format where you get to start with a creature (or pair of creatures) in your hand. I think it's incredibly naive to say "Oh, Flash is the only problem in the format".

EDH was never meant for competitive play, and it shows. What grinds my gears the most is that *every* other format is intended for competitive play. Can't casuals have just this one format?

All that said, banlists are kind of wack to begin with. I think we should unban nearly everything that doesn't cost a (monetary) fortune. That way, people would be forced to discuss what kind of game they want to play.

[pokken]

I am just very against alienating portions of our community, because we disagree with the way they play. I also disagree that EDH at large is the same. I play in predominantly pick up groups, and finding a fair game is a nightmare and a half. Perhaps that's just my own experience, or the way I build and/or play my decks.

Just, something about arguing we discount other player's experience within the format doesn't sit right with me. If the RC only catered to cEDH from the start and didn't deal with cards like Prophet of Kruphix or whatnot, and we were the minority, it'd feel pretty bad to be told that we're invalid for the way we play, right? EDH to me isn't about being a casual wonderland, it's about self expression through deck creation, and that's a thing that I think should be open to all. A lot of the way our community at large has responded to cEDH in general comes of as extremely toxic to me, and I'm extremely sad that we've created a divide like this for a format we all love.

I definitely feel the conflict; but on the flipside, they knew going in what the philosophy was, right? I didn't build casual modern decks and then get upset that I got ripped at a tournament because that was counter to the ethos of the format.

edit: water park analogy too stretched!

If EDH had been regulated as competitive from the start, no one would play prophet of kruphix so it would never have come up. We'd be playing a significantly different game. Most likely we'd have far more in common with the canadian highlander points list as far as a banlist goes.

You can bet I wouldn't be sitting around complaining that the competitive format isn't casual enough for me.

I really do not get the "told that we're invalid for the way we play." I haven't heard that said. Not banning flash doesn't make playing with a competitive ethos invalid any more than not banning mana crypt does for people who would like to play without the high variance of busted fast mana.

Who are CEDH players to say that their opinion of a balanced competitive format is better than the (almost surely much larger) group of competitive minded people who hate fast mana?

[KitsuLeif]

And that's a common theme I've heard but I think it continues to ignore the whole "does not seek to regulate competitive play" line in the philosophy document.

But that line stands a bit in contradiction to the line from the B&R announcement:

With the introduction of Commander-focused premier events, the number of games played outside local playgroups is rising.

They know about this. They see it happening. And hopefully, they find a way to keep the format balanced in a way that it is fun for everyone.

[pokken]

And that's a common theme I've heard but I think it continues to ignore the whole "does not seek to regulate competitive play" line in the philosophy document.

But that line stands a bit in contradiction to the line from the B&R announcement:

With the introduction of Commander-focused premier events, the number of games played outside local playgroups is rising.

They know about this. They see it happening. And hopefully, they find a way to keep the format balanced in a way that it is fun for everyone.

To me that likely indicates a willingness to ban casually annoying cards more aggressively rather than start regulating for competitive. I'd expect that iona, shield of emeria and other non-game causing effects are more likely the target of this kind of messaging. If this was used to justify banning static orb that would be more likely to me than flash.

Bans like paradox engine, prophet of kruphix and sylvan primordial are aimed at creating a good baseline experience when playing outside of your playgroup - at least, that's my reading of them.

Edit: I wanted to add that you could ban the 20 most egregious combo enablers and still not make a CEDH deck play well with a battlecruiser deck, so I don't see how banning flash is going to do anything to help with pubstomping at sanctioned events.

[BeneTleilax]

A Flash ban costs us nothing as casual players. I do not understand those who just want to watch another format suffer, at no benefit to themselves. It's not like the RC is spending energy testing for cEDH or anything. If something else comes up in cEDH and is annoying, it'll be no worse off than it is now. I see no reason to chose certain stagnation over the possibility of growth, except to punish fellow EDH players over some one-sided ideological grudge.

[pokken]

A Flash ban costs us nothing as casual players. I do not understand those who just want to watch another format suffer, at no benefit to themselves. It's not like the RC is spending energy testing for cEDH or anything. If something else comes up in cEDH and is annoying, it'll be no worse off than it is now. I see no reason to chose certain stagnation over the possibility of growth, except to punish fellow EDH players over some one-sided ideological grudge.

The key here is to consider the perspective of others. There are two main perspectives on the other side:

1) There *are* people who play flash in a casual setting. Probably the most common is for arena rector in super friends decks (cue the violins, I know). How do those people feel having their decks changed for something that is explicitly not in the purview of the banlist?

2) There are people who are concerned that if the banlist criteria is changed it might affect future bannings which do encroach on casual play more than flash.

Consider those perspectives and give them the benefit of the doubt. Do you really think anyone is out to try to punish CEDH players? That has to be like the most tiny minority of jerks.

My ambivalence on the issue is almost entirely regarding the possible ramifications for the future of the format.

[Sinis]

A Flash ban costs us nothing as casual players. I do not understand those who just want to watch another format suffer,

This isn't true. I play Flash casually, alongside Scout's Warning and Savage Summoning in some decks. Sometimes you just want surprise. That Flash is brokety-broke when you decide that you need to break it is another story. Flash has legitimate uses, and there are only a few narrow applications where it's truly broken (like Protean Hulk/Academy Rector/Arena Rector), and then the rest of the time (like with Undying or Persist creatures) it's pretty tame.

It's not about punishing cEDH players, or wanting them to suffer. For me, it's about a) the practicality of maintaining a banlist for competitive play for a format that played competitively a tiny minority of the time, and b) the tone of the format in the first place, which has always been casual and non-competitive.

[BeneTleilax]

I'm not saying the general mandate of the banlist needs to change. All I'm saying is that this is the lowest hanging fruit imaginable. I have never seen anyone play Flash in casual, and online it's a tiny minority of lists. When it is used, as you mentioned, it's as a quick tutor-to-play, which most people don't like anyways. More casual players lost out on the Paradox Engine and Prophet bans than this. Keep the banlist rules as they are, just get rid of Flash because it benefits basically no-one and harms many. We can cross later bridges when we reach them; if slippery slopes are the only arguments for why it shouldn't be banned, that indicates a paucity of legitimate reasons.

[Sharpened]

if slippery slopes are the only arguments for why it shouldn't be banned, that indicates a paucity of legitimate reasons.

It's a changing of what the Rules Committee does. It's not that they might have to ban more, it's that instead of caretaking a casual format they take on a role of being arbiters of competitive balance. The tools to do so may be similar, but it really is a vastly different role.

[pokken]

I'm not saying the general mandate of the banlist needs to change.

The problem is that the mandate has to change to allow any regulation of competitive play at all. Right now it specifically excludes it.

Even if the mandate doesn't change explicitly it does change implicitly when even a special case is admitted.

[darrenhabib]

I've noticed talk here about cEDH being the minority, thus doesn't matter and/or need their own ban list.

Interestingly on Magic Online the trend has been rapidly growing towards cEDH queues. I'd say two years ago it was about 1% of the players. About 1 year ago maybe 10%. And literally within the last few months more like 30%. That's a third of players like to play as competitively as possible.

Now obviously a lot of this is due to card availability. Imperial Seal costs you $4 instead of $430, so players can make up the decks that they want.

I just think it's interesting that given freedom to play styles of decks that they want, given not worrying too much about budget, that players are exponentially trending towards super competitive play.
Part of this is also learning deck and play styles from playing against other players who do have good decks.
And it isn't a case of "can't beat em join em", because the queues are specifically divided between 3 groups. "Casual", "Competitive 7-9" and "cEDH". So you know what you are signing up for, no arguments, no disappointment.

You can tell from Sheldon Q&A article ( articles/1049-q-a-with-sheldon-menery ) that he has a lack of knowledge when it comes to what is capable within the rules of commander and it's ban list given making them as optimized as possible.

You mentioned playing some cEDH at SCGCON. How did that go? Any plans on building a deck for events?

It was fine, but no, I won't be building one. The issue for me is that when you're playing something so involved, you have to pay attention. The price for me was socializing. I had my head down in the deck and the game state so much that I couldn't meaningfully interact with the people I was playing with (other than inside the bounds of the game) or the spectators. When I'm at a show, I want to play the game AND hang out with the people.

So given the trend towards competitive play, it's real and not something that is going away but only getting more popular, either more consideration needs to be taken into the ban list, or a separate ban list.
But as cEDH players have already expressed, making a separate list that is only a few cards different is a pain and confusing to everybody involved. And it's not exactly rocket science, there just needs to be more communication between RC and the general populace of players to figure out how to balance it.

[pokken]

I've noticed talk here about cEDH being the minority, thus doesn't matter and/or need their own ban list.

Interestingly on Magic Online the trend has been rapidly growing towards cEDH queues. I'd say two years ago it was about 1% of the players. About 1 year ago maybe 10%. And literally within the last few months more like 30%. That's a third of players like to play as competitively as possible.

<snip>

I don't think I would generalize too hard from MTGO numbers; I think given unlimited budgets people would settle into 8s and 9s for the most part.

30% of the entire MTGO EDH population probably represents a fraction of a percent of the MTG playing community that is self-selecting for the most competitive minded players. Attempting to extrapolate to paper is likely hard to do usefully.

But as cEDH players have already expressed, making a separate list that is only a few cards different is a pain and confusing to everybody involved. And it's not exactly rocket science, there just needs to be more communication between RC and the general populace of players to figure out how to balance it.

So I think you're oversimplifying. CEDH is a fairly one dimensional solved format that only has any real diversity by virtue of having years of baggage from a slow moving metagame -- that is, people play Gitrog because they own Gitrog, not because it's a successful deck. Increased attention and churn has essentially solved it in the last couple years. Simply banning Flash is not going to add any diversity - people will pivot immediately to consult. Banning flash, consult and pact pivots toward food chain or scepter (and one will be revealed to be the best deck over about 6 months).

People now know that you cannot play the format seriously without a pile of cheap/free counterspells and black tutors as the backbone of your deck.

Emphasis on rocket science: It is very, very complex. All of the "fixes" people bandy about have a time horizon of maybe a year before the metagame solves for them. Banning flash is trying to plug a dam with bubble gum.

[onering]

My experience on mtgo has been very different from Darren's, so I'd further caution against drawing conclusions from his numbers. The plural of anectdote is not data.

I don't think that saying don't ban for cEDH is saying they don't matter. What it is saying is that cEDH and casual are very different metas with very different goals and very different needs that already play like very different formats. Banning for cEDH not only risks negatively impacting casual, it's simply a half measure that won't give cEDH players what they want without having severe negative impacts on casual, not just through bannings but through unbannings as well. If you actually want to cater to cEDH, and it's probably time to do so, then don't half ass it, lean into it and make cEDH a format. There is so much more upside to that then occasionally banning a card that cEDH hates that you don't think will impact casual too much. At best, that approach just muddies the format philosophy while doing the bare minimum (again, at best) to foster cEDH. Leaving out the slippery slope argument, leaving out the potential harm to casual, leaving out the long term impacts of a philosophy change, that alone is worse than actually coming up with a banlist catering to cEDH and what cEDH players want, to deal with the word problems and set free cards that are bad for casual but good, or at least ok, for cEDH, and generally promote the format.

And btw, wizards tried to balance commander for mtgo with a mtgo only banlist curated by wizards with the express intention of creating a competetively balanced format. It was an absolute failure that resulted in them restoring the real banlist alongside their experiment within a month, a massive drop in game firing during that month, and the eventual abandonment of the experiment after an a year of emergency bans that nevertheless came no closer to establishing a balanced format than the RC's banlist (which expressly doesn't even try to balance the format). It's a fools errand, doomed to failure. The best way to approach cEDH is the same as casual but with one difference. With Sheldon's vision, the key is to not break the format. With cEDH, the key is to break the format. Lean into it, celebrate it, enjoy the brokenness, and just ban the %$#% that makes it not fun. Flash is bad for cEDH not because it's broken, which it is, and not because of balance, but because it's made the format unfun for the people who like the broken absurdity of cEDH, and what a cEDH format with it's own banlist would do is let cEDH players have more fun.

[Airi]

and what a cEDH format with it's own banlist would do is let cEDH players have more fun.

I just want to point out that a separate ban list is not necessarily going to be a solution. First off, it would likely largely kill the format, in the same way varient commander formats are dead. Secondly, for the cEDH players that do like participating in events, this is literally the worst solution for them, because their decks would likely not be legal in those sorts of sanctioned events, such as the EDH events held at MagicFest.

Any RC created by the cEDH community is not likely to have the same ties to WotC that our RC has, and would have a lot of trouble being viewed as an official format in the same way. That's like, an absolute, worst case scenario last resort situation.

[pokken]

and what a cEDH format with it's own banlist would do is let cEDH players have more fun.

I just want to point out that a separate ban list is not necessarily going to be a solution. First off, it would likely largely kill the format, in the same way varient commander formats are dead. Secondly, for the cEDH players that do like participating in events, this is literally the worst solution for them, because their decks would likely not be legal in those sorts of sanctioned events, such as the EDH events held at MagicFest.

Any RC created by the cEDH community is not likely to have the same ties to WotC that our RC has, and would have a lot of trouble being viewed as an official format in the same way. That's like, an absolute, worst case scenario last resort situation.

Yeah, I have come around to getting that after some time thinking about it. Basically, even if there is a separate format there're always going to be people who want to play the hardest with the commander rules.

I think there's a lot of value in understanding what the most powerful things you can do in the format are since they basically serve as an object lesson of the upper end of the rule 0 discussion - it's useful to have a yardstick with at least one end.

I do also think there is more of a spectrum than most people realize; there're lots of people who play budget CEDH decks that are effectively 80% decks. Most of my stronger casual decks can and do beat budget CEDH decks on the regular. It's a different kind of game but it happens.

I still think that there might be middle ground of a recommended competitive addendum that simply adds some number of cards to the banlist for people who want more competitive guardrails - it's hard to know if people would adhere to the spirit of that or try to game the system with "ooh, this is my casual flash hulk deck" but I think all but the scummiest would probably.

And then the rule 0 discussion begins with "Are you using the competitive addenum?" and scales down from there.

[MRHblue]

Interestingly Oracle seems to be much more of a problem than Flash has been. Now I wont say I have seen anywhere close to enough games to be data, but I have seen a lot more Oracle / Consultation attempts than Flash / Hulk. But people are also well aware of Flash as the 'big bad'.

I think that also lends credence to 'it wont just be Flash if the RC tries to balance cEDH'.

@pokken Can you explain how the addendum is different than a separate ban list? To me it sounds like word play to not say 'ban'.

[pokken]

Interestingly Oracle seems to be much more of a problem than Flash has been. Now I wont say I have seen anywhere close to enough games to be data, but I have seen a lot more Oracle / Consultation attempts than Flash / Hulk. But people are also well aware of Flash as the 'big bad'.

I think that also lends credence to 'it wont just be Flash if the RC tries to balance cEDH'.

@pokken Can you explain how the addendum is different than a separate ban list? To me it sounds like word play to not say 'ban'.

First: I agree, I feel like Oracle has actually powered up consult packages more than flash packages in practice (being able to go off for 3 mana instead of 4+) is a huge edge. But interestingly I think that's actually been good for the meta in an unanticipated way; consult decks are so much more refined and require less air than flash decks, that if everyone is ready to answer flash they are good. That said, all the attention on CEDH has turned the whole thing into a bit of a slog for me; every game is sling 10 cheap counterspells to stop the early win then whoever's CA engine sticks wins.

Re: The Addendum idea

So I'll preface by saying this is not super well thought out and it's just an idea I had to possibly maintain the formats while simultaneously allowing some shaping of competitive play that doesn't impact casual play. It's fully possible that a "recommended banlist addendum" would impact casual as people would feel compelled to follow it.

The idea is basically
1. The EDH banlist always applies
2. In competitive decks it is recommended to also adhere to the Competitive Banlist Addendum which contains additional bans for competitive play but no unbans.


I would start the banlist addendum with

• flash
• tainted pact
• demonic consultation

And consider adding some other troublesome cards as time goes on, with a goal of keeping the addendum below 10 cards. The manifesto for the addendum would be something akin to:

This list seeks to improve the character of competitive play without eliminating the fundamental pillars of gameplay which include: fast mana, efficient deck searching, and efficient card advantage engines.

In the end, All CEDH deck are EDH decks but not all EDH decks are CEDH decks.

The main questions I have about the idea are:
1) Will competitive players actually honor it or will you have the same issue with a split format where some people refuse to adopt the addendum for some reason?

2) Will casual players feel unduly influenced to follow the addendum?

3) Is it actually possible to make CEDH playable long term without changing the fundamental nature (fast mana tutors etc.)?

[MRHblue]

@pokken Yea I understand your idea, I just dont see it being distinct from an additional ban list. I guess that may be me assuming the cEDH list would only be additive, but I could easily see where it would unban stuff that wont matter to them.

I certainly think cEDH is viable long term, those things are part of the fun. But getting a diverse meta with Oracle around may be tough. It seemed good before Oracle, maybe thats the first thing on the addendum? I mean lab man is still a thing, but wont win through removal.

[pokken]

@pokken Yea I understand your idea, I just dont see it being distinct from an additional ban list. I guess that may be me assuming the cEDH list would only be additive, but I could easily see where it would unban stuff that wont matter to them.

I certainly think cEDH is viable long term, those things are part of the fun. But getting a diverse meta with Oracle around may be tough. It seemed good before Oracle, maybe thats the first thing on the addendum? I mean lab man is still a thing, but wont win through removal.

Most people I have heard who want a separate banlist want to start fresh and get rid of all the stuff that isn't really a CEDH problem like prophet/recurring nightmare/primordial/primetime/etc., never heard anyone else suggest an additive only banlist that I can recall.

I'm not sure if I think CEDH is viable long term, especially without financial constraints as most people want to play it nowadays (proxies, etc.). I think there's a lot of reason to think it might always degenerate to a very small group of viable decks and that dice rolling is as big a factor as deck construction in the volume of CEDH gameplay.

I think that's a serious thing people are not understanding; in Modern for example we had probably 50x (if not 500x) more matches being played, and the number of variables were a lot lower.

So something like Tatyova or Heliod or even Food Chain spiking a single tournament is largely meaningless; all things considered seating order and variance in die rolls and just randomness in drawing cards will have far more impact on win rate in CEDH than deck construction at the volume if games being played.

I'm pretty unsure if we really know as much as we think we know about CEDH, to be honest. My suspicion is that if you played it as much as modern you'd find Flash and Consult decks have far greater advantages over the field than people estimate. But that all gets disappeared in the amount of variance in 4 player games.

[onering]

and what a cEDH format with it's own banlist would do is let cEDH players have more fun.

I just want to point out that a separate ban list is not necessarily going to be a solution. First off, it would likely largely kill the format, in the same way varient commander formats are dead. Secondly, for the cEDH players that do like participating in events, this is literally the worst solution for them, because their decks would likely not be legal in those sorts of sanctioned events, such as the EDH events held at MagicFest.

Any RC created by the cEDH community is not likely to have the same ties to WotC that our RC has, and would have a lot of trouble being viewed as an official format in the same way. That's like, an absolute, worst case scenario last resort situation.

My proposal assumes that tournaments and events, being competitive in nature, would use the competitive banlist, with the original casual banlist being reserved for no skin games. I thought that was implied but perhaps not clearly enough. I also would think the RC themselves would be putting out the separate banlist. I understand how variant formats run into the legitimacy problem, but the RC maintaining the cEDH banlist would not only avoid that, but reinforce the legitimacy of the format by having it created and approved by the RC, who would also be able to coordinate with WotC. The latter is important because that gives them and opportunity to discuss what cards could be printed to balance the format, which is an important tool to have. Balancing a format through bans is only partially effective, being able to print hate cards or strengthen strategies that punish currently dominant archetypes is the predominant way that competitive formats are balanced (and why any hope of balancing the format is a joke without it).