The One Ring

[ISBPathfinder]

Its been an incredibly long time since I have seen a brand new card come out and me to respond after a few weeks that I think we should consider banning something. That said, I haven't seen a single deck yet that The One Ring doesn't seem to overperform. I am not actually sure that its too strong in general but it seems like it belongs literally everywhere so far from what I have seen. Decks piling a ton of ramp into them seem to only get better by jamming this card in and the fact that it has indestructible tagged onto all the other things it already does just feels like a slap in the face.

So, I guess this is me suggesting we keep an eye on this card with the consideration of banning it from the perspective that its just too good, colorless, and I feel like it belongs everywhere. Its giving me some real Primeval Titan vibes but its actually colorless to boot.

This is not me saying that its the most broken thing on earth, its good, really good but my concern is more that it just should go in every deck. Even decks with good draw already its still too efficient and does too much as well as being hard to interact with.

[pokken]

I would personally ban this card immediately. It's pretty much the worse experience ever to watch someone run away with the game because of an unchecked Ring. Oh hey it's indestructible, they're safe for a turn, and now they're gonna draw infinity cards. I'd rather play against Necropotence.

The worst part is probably that it's a nearly autoinclude staple at $40. The game needs a lot less of that; Sol Ring Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are bad enough. I have no idea why they print %$#%$#% like this.

The magic word is ubiquity - this card is going to be in every single deck eventually, and it's going to get to Mana Crypt prices. Emergency ban before the finance train starts to run will save a lot of heartache.

[ISBPathfinder]

I have already ordered six copies and plan it to be included in essentially all my decks. Even with my like $200 on the line I am of the opinion it needs to go. Me ordering so many was more of a contingency of if it doesn't get banned I suspect it's price to go up.

[pokken]

I have already ordered six copies and plan it to be included in essentially all my decks. Even with my like $200 on the line I am of the opinion it needs to go. Me ordering so many was more of a contingency of if it doesn't get banned I suspect it's price to go up.

I think this is pretty common; most of the people I know with disposable incomes are loading up on rings and bowmasters for every deck almost. Ubiquitous goodstuff is so annoying.

I'm only going to get one copy of the ring personally, for the one deck I have where it's a strong synergy. But it could easily slot into almost any deck.

[toctheyounger]

I think the card is very strong. I don't know if it's going to be warping enough to be something that people really don't want to see. The protection trigger being on cast and not ETB bodes well, but yes the draw is gross and phrased almost the best way possible.

I disagree that every deck wants it. It's probably in the long list for every brew you'd start, but I think there's places it'll not make the cut. That said, if ubiquity is the concern we can really only wait and see. I know it's being rapidly accepted by the cedh meta, moreso even than Bowmasters, which was already chase. Regardless though I think in terms of power you're really wanting to break the parity of it's tap effect before it becomes anything truly egregious. Incremental draw over turns will slowly overwhelm a casual table, but at the higher level it doesn't really compare to Rhystic Study, Ad Nauseam, Peer into the Abyss, Mystic Remora et al. All of these stack your hand quicker.

I don't know. I get the concern, the card is very strong. I don't think it's a banworthy card, at least on the basis of strength. It's within the realms of what's already legal. In terms of ubiquity, by definition we really need to wait and see how that shakes out.

[ISBPathfinder]

@toctheyounger just curious what your experience with the card is so far. I think I have played against it 4 to 6 times so far. I haven't actually had the ETB of it be relevant yet not to say that it won't ever be but most of them I have seen have just been there for the draw function of it. I will be curious to see how the frequency changes as its out for longer.

I have also played against bowmaster several times. Its not been trash but ultimately I am not that impressed or afraid of bowmasters but I tend to play more interactive magic as well.

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger just curious what your experience with the card is so far. I think I have played against it 4 to 6 times so far. I haven't actually had the ETB of it be relevant yet not to say that it won't ever be but most of them I have seen have just been there for the draw function of it. I will be curious to see how the frequency changes as its out for longer.

I have also played against bowmaster several times. Its not been trash but ultimately I am not that impressed or afraid of bowmasters but I tend to play more interactive magic as well.

I've drawn into it twice in my Dihada build. It's been good, but that deck can manually storm off with the right stuff or quite easily cast Peer into the Abyss well below cost, so it's good but not amazing. That said I think it'll slap hard in Bruna. And again, in Varina, I actually don't want it. My commander represents far better draw, so you know, it's not quite a shoe in for every build.

I've seen footage of it winning cedh games in its own way, but that's not the meta that'll decide if it stays in the format or not. In a casual game I expect it to be scary if left, and I hate present a dies to doom blade argument, but there are plenty of things that'll end it.

I think it's a matter of time to actually see what it does in the casual wilderness. There's certainly a chance it goes, but I'm a little skeptical that that will happen.

[Simto]

I know it's not commander, but it's the most played card in the deck lists of the modern pro tour that starts today. There may be a word or two about the card after the pro tour and that could make people keep an eye on it in other formats.

[Avacyn Believer]

I have no idea why they print %$#%$#% like this.

Money, what other reason Hasbro has to print so many sets MtG always had power creep but I suppose it was less noticeable before when the sets came in slower.

I didn't think this would spark a discussion about being banned, but I am curious what will happen with it in the future. I agree that it is "generic" good card for card draw because it is colourless, but I agree more with @toctheyounger that I don't think it is a card for every deck. The One Ring will be awesome in decks that can abuse it, but that requires at least some other cards to make happen. I think its kind of a trap to put it into every deck without thinking if it belongs there, not even Sol Ring is auto include in 100% of decks.

And as was already said, the Commander format already has plenty of broken card draw engines, granted those tend to be colour specific.

I think I'll give the Ring a try in my mono-white decks that need extra card draw.

Last thought, now that I am thinking about it, I been playing usually twice a week in an LGS and I haven't seen the One Ring yet on the battlefield.

[RxPhantom]

I don't plan on running any LotR cards, but I may have to adjust the removal suite in some of my decks to deal with it. That irritates me a bit. But this is also the future. Universes Beyond sets are too big to fail. The cost of both the license and a swath of new art means that they're going to be the most juiced sets on the calendar. They'll also be the best sellers, which will lead to even more UB dominance. We're talking about the One Ring now, but pretty soon it'll be Cloud Strife and Ezio Auditore.

[ISBPathfinder]

I've seen footage of it winning cedh games in its own way, but that's not the meta that'll decide if it stays in the format or not. In a casual game I expect it to be scary if left, and I hate present a dies to doom blade argument, but there are plenty of things that'll end it.

Its weird to see a dies to doom blade argument used on a 4 mana indestructible. The number of frequently run removal that interacts with it is incredibly low being what.... Chaos Warp, Anguished Unmaking, and Cyclonic Rift? I suppose Farewell and Tragic Arrogance for sweepers also get it but that is almost the end of the commonly run removal options that I can come up with that interact with the card. Its probably been 2-5 years since I have seen someone run Return to Dust.

Its also fair that the meta I am playing in while not cEDH tends to start killing tables as early as turns 6/7 not being that uncommon for our games to be over by or before turn 10.

[pokken]

I think the fundamental thing that The One Ring is going to do is put a ton of pressure on people to close the game fast, across all metas. It scales out of control with the length of the game; by the time you're tapping it the 4th time that's +10 cards (+1, +2, +3, +4) you're up on the table for 4 mana.

agree more with @toctheyounger that I don't think it is a card for every deck.

The only time the ring is not a card for every deck is if you're actively restraining your power level or trying to achieve synergy for funs. It's a bonkers card. Cut any 4 drop in almost any deck and it'll be a power upgrade.

[Dunharrow]

I think exiling removal should be played more anyway, but the fact is that only White has good answers to it.
Red has one? answer to this
Green has some bad answers to this
Blue has Ravenform and bounce (bounce is not great though)
Black has nothing.

There are some cards like Shadowspear which can help but maybe not enough of them.

My gut feeling about this card is that right now it will be close to banworthy, but in 3-4 years it will be expensive enough that it will be priced out of most decks like Mana Crypt and just won't be banned.

[onering]

Ban this %$#%. It's absurd, and should have never been printed. Incredibly pushed and centralizing.

[Igzex]

Oh I'd love to see this dumb forced instant staple cashgrab piece of garbage be cast into the banlist but it's gonna be another Jeweled Lotus situation where it's never gonna be banned but there's slight relief in that it's so expensive you'll only have to worry about your friends only having that card in one of their decks at most.

[kirkusjones]

The One Ring was a trap to begin with. If what they printed wasn't pushed, everyone would be complaining about it being a flavor fail. They pushed it, it's real good, we hate it.

There is no way they could have designed it that wouldn't have made people angry. It's too iconic. It's the One Ring, people. It was made to rule, to cast an entire world into darkness, I'd say it's done its job.

[toctheyounger]

It's very strange to me. The card is strong, for sure. I struggle to think of something it directly compares to, mechanically, but when I think of cards that well and truly deserved to get got, I think of, say, Prophet of Kruphix and Paradox Engine. I built a deck around Paradox, more or less, and I could still concede the card was obscene in almost any scenario or any deck.

I just don't see this being anywhere near that level of warping. It's not the strongest draw, it's not the strongest protection, it's not the fastest or most efficient of either. Sure, it does a lot and there aren't many decks that don't want it, but I don't think it's banworthy, certainly not on the metric of power.

[ISBPathfinder]

It's very strange to me. The card is strong, for sure. I struggle to think of something it directly compares to, mechanically, but when I think of cards that well and truly deserved to get got, I think of, say, Prophet of Kruphix and Paradox Engine. I built a deck around Paradox, more or less, and I could still concede the card was obscene in almost any scenario or any deck.

I just don't see this being anywhere near that level of warping. It's not the strongest draw, it's not the strongest protection, it's not the fastest or most efficient of either. Sure, it does a lot and there aren't many decks that don't want it, but I don't think it's banworthy, certainly not on the metric of power.

Define what you consider to be the best draw / strongest protection because its a hybrid of both and accessible to everything. I wouldn't say its "the strongest" draw but I would say its like..... half a step behind the strongest. Necropotence and Rhystic Study to me are the best draw and I don't know that I can name many cards outside of those two that don't have to have a specific situation or build up to be stronger.

Its a little slower draw to get going but it also comes with frontloaded value in its protection and it has stapled on Indestructible which makes its somewhat long run value much more likely. I really do struggle to list many cards that don't need specific setups to outshine the value generically for essentially any deck that can run it.

[toctheyounger]

It's very strange to me. The card is strong, for sure. I struggle to think of something it directly compares to, mechanically, but when I think of cards that well and truly deserved to get got, I think of, say, Prophet of Kruphix and Paradox Engine. I built a deck around Paradox, more or less, and I could still concede the card was obscene in almost any scenario or any deck.

I just don't see this being anywhere near that level of warping. It's not the strongest draw, it's not the strongest protection, it's not the fastest or most efficient of either. Sure, it does a lot and there aren't many decks that don't want it, but I don't think it's banworthy, certainly not on the metric of power.

Define what you consider to be the best draw / strongest protection because its a hybrid of both and accessible to everything. I wouldn't say its "the strongest" draw but I would say its like..... half a step behind the strongest. Necropotence and Rhystic Study to me are the best draw and I don't know that I can name many cards outside of those two that don't have to have a specific situation or build up to be stronger.

Its a little slower draw to get going but it also comes with frontloaded value in its protection and it has stapled on Indestructible which makes its somewhat long run value much more likely. I really do struggle to list many cards that don't need specific setups to outshine the value generically for essentially any deck that can run it.

Rhystic, Remora, Sentinel, Necro, Ad Naus, Peer, Consecrated. Those are the pinnacle to me. I'm sure there's more but these are what come to mind, sorry red and green. And while I think Ring gets close, it's not even close for time efficiency. Sure, the first one or two are free, but unless you're untapping it with Seedborn or what have you it's gonna take you forever to get the sort of draw Rhystic will pull in. And that's like, really situational, if anyone is letting you keep this in play with an untapper that's on them, it's far from under the radar.

As far as protection goes Teferi's Protection is probably where it's at, even if it is a once off. I don't think any of us here are complaining about for the protection though; having to cast for 4 balances that out to be fine to me. And it still doesn't protect your permanents, your graveyard or your library from a variety of effects, nor stop anyone else from enabling win the game conditions.

I'm not trying to argue it's not strong, it clearly is. Yes, it's a lot of value on a single card. Yes, it can go in every deck. I don't think it should, although I will concede there are very few it shouldn't. I just think if we're looking on the excessive power parameter as the justification for a ban we're probably close but not quite there. It pushes the limits of what is acceptable in the format, but doesn't break them to me.

[ISBPathfinder]

Rhystic, Remora, Sentinel, Necro, Ad Naus, Peer, Consecrated. Those are the pinnacle to me. I'm sure there's more but these are what come to mind, sorry red and green. And while I think Ring gets close, it's not even close for time efficiency. Sure, the first one or two are free, but unless you're untapping it with Seedborn or what have you it's gonna take you forever to get the sort of draw Rhystic will pull in. And that's like, really situational, if anyone is letting you keep this in play with an untapper that's on them, it's far from under the radar.

As far as protection goes Teferi's Protection is probably where it's at, even if it is a once off. I don't think any of us here are complaining about for the protection though; having to cast for 4 balances that out to be fine to me. And it still doesn't protect your permanents, your graveyard or your library from a variety of effects, nor stop anyone else from enabling win the game conditions.

I'm not trying to argue it's not strong, it clearly is. Yes, it's a lot of value on a single card. Yes, it can go in every deck. I don't think it should, although I will concede there are very few it shouldn't. I just think if we're looking on the excessive power parameter as the justification for a ban we're probably close but not quite there. It pushes the limits of what is acceptable in the format, but doesn't break them to me.

Ok, I know that metas vary but wow my list doesn't look like yours at all. Several of your "pinalce" draw cards for me are boarderline unplayable junk pile cards on average.

Mystic Remora - I will give you that in cEDH its probably amazing but my games bounce around too much in what level my opponents are playing for me to have a very good result with it. I can name you a lot of times where I play it and three turns later I stop paying its upkeep to have drawn like.... 1-2 cards. I really rarely play the card just because if opponents aren't playing crazy draw into refuel strategies or trying to win immediately it feels bad against a lot of fair magic decks. I wouldn't call it a staple outside of cEDH I would say its a meta call card at best. I am on my 5th meta 12 years of playing the game and I have probably only played it in 3-4 decks and seen it played against me maybe half a dozen times.

Esper Sentinel - I play a LOT of white and I struggle really really hard to play this guy at all. The only time he is going to shine in my opinion is in metas you expect games to end very early. He isn't good enough on his own he needs to be pumped and very few decks I would say consistantly have options to pump him. My take on this card is that its unplayable except if you expect super short games or have a deck with tons of pump consistancy.

Ad Nauseam - I would call this essentially a build around or cEDH level of card because 99% of decks aren't going to be built in a way to really take that much advantage from it. I think I have run this in one deck I didn't consider to be cEDH in 12 years and I haven't seen more than one or two cast by opponents not running cEDH. I wouldn't call this card a normal "draw" card so much as a draw your deck card and even then its not just casually put into a deck its generally a deck built to ad naus.

Peer - I can't actually even say what card you are referring to with this suggestion which is a little concerning to me.

Consecrated Sphinx - I guess its fine. I won't use the dies to doomblade argument here but at one point my expected results became pay six and get spot removed. I stopped playing this card much around six years ago after having a series of those experiences. I know its not always going to happen and it totally can and does take over the game if unchecked I do think the consistency of removal in your meta does dictate the playability though.

----

I am not trying to dismiss other valid draw but a lot of what you mentioned is sort of build around or in a specific situation good. My issue is that The One Ring doesn't have situations or specific builds. Its good in almost everything and its way harder to remove than any of the other cards that made this list we talked about. For the record, I have never seen it with an untapper but that sounds horrifying. The card just on its own has taken over so many games on me already. Its like a slightly more expensive Phyrexian Arena that ramps into exponential draw while protecting itself.

[toctheyounger]

Peer into the Abyss

I mean look those are mostly spikey picks sure. But they're all close to Ring for draw if not better and none of them are on the radar at all. Sphinx gets got because it's very good. If it were a Gray Ogre no one would waste removal on it.

Again I'm not saying it's not a great card, I just don't see it as egregious. Even if we're talking annoying play patterns as the concern I think Cyc Rift is further up the ladder.

[pokken]

I struggle to think of something it directly compares to, mechanically, but when I think of cards that well and truly deserved to get go

Hear me out, it's closest to Primeval Titan.

It is:
* completely centralizing (people in CEDH are starting to run Phyrexian Metamorph to counter it ffs)
* should be played in every deck that it can
* provides an overwhelming advantage after about 3 turns or so
* isn't actually all *that* problematic in terms of any other axis of the game.


(I will add that Consecrated Sphinx is a great comparison too. And we talked a looooot about sphinx as a ban back in the day. Ultimately I think it would be a hot ban topic if somehow it hadn't just faded from being fashionable. My win rate with sphinx in a deck is so comically high. I play it, I win, almost always. But I just don't play it because it's so damn good.

Bottom line if csphinx was banned no one would bat an eye at it. It's so ridiculous. Being blue instead of green is the main thing keeping it unbanned)

Peer and necropotence survive mainly due to being so spikey and having a lot of black mana symbols. Again, we have talked a toooon about banning necropotence. If it were banned no one would be fighting for it to come back because it's possibly more busted than Griselbrand.

Peer is another card that could be banned, along with Enter the Infinite. If these cards were banned no one would care.

Bottom line is ring is on the level of these cards and is colorless. That's the thing that pushes it into ban territory. Much like Prime time gets the ban for being green and sylvan primordial gets the ban for being green.

Being colorless and also being generally applicable I guess. That's prime time like, the most popular color and takes zero thinking or planning to be insane.

Peer, necro, enter, require a littttle more setup and are less popular.

[toctheyounger]

colorless

This is it for me. It's the one part of the card I find concerning. It's a red flag for ubiquity for sure. Otherwise, I know the comparisons are not all that helpful, because the RC doesn't work on an 'if this why not that' arrangement, but I truly don't feel like it's comparable to the worst offenders here for draw.

Are people really concerned about Necropotence? The pseudo-draw is good, but the drawbacks really confine how that advantage is used. It's been around so long if it were actually a problem I would think it'd have gone long ago.

[duducrash]

I've played with and against the one ring and I don't think it will be EDH banned.

It's too much value for sure, but we've been told by actions of the RC that value alone isn't, they'll ban cards that are unfun to play against and cards that win games in a unfun way. I think they ban cards people dislike playing against and i'm not sure this happens with the one ring. It's powerfull, but it warps the game in a "passive" way and it's not bothersome. Iona, Shield of Emeria is perhaps a less impactfull card overall, but the play pattern and feels is what they ban, not power level itself I feel. It's a great card, one of the most powerful cards ever. But Im never mad to play against.

I played a bunch of magic this past few weeks and I've killed this dude twice proliferating his ring which was also pretty fun and makes me forget the dozens of time I lost to it

[ISBPathfinder]

I will say, I did catch someone's One Ring with a Titania's Song today. That was extremely satisfying but even then I would say he more than got the value out of the damn thing. Its just funny watching it have to walk off as a 4/4 without indestructible.