Proxies in Commander

Do you like proxies in commander?

Yes
21
29%
No
18
25%
Depends if they are used reasonably or not
34
47%
 
Total votes: 73

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 472
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

cryogen wrote:
3 months ago
pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Not every manabase has to have duals. I only play the duals I own and its definitely made me more creative with mana. Sometimes i just play shocks and sometimes i play weird stuff.

Feeling like you need to have dual lands in every deck is part of the arms race problem. People didnt used to feel like that when I started playing.
Interesting. I started playing in 2011 and I've ALWAYS felt like I needed them. I don't think it's so much that players feel like they don't need them, it's that they're realistic and know that they aren't worth the expense most of the time. But strictly speaking, every deck "needs" them as they are hands down the best dual lands in the format.
Being optimal and fast its true that its always going to help. Some more reactive strategies though its not as big of a deal though but generally speaking those strategies don't work in cEDH. I have been experimenting more with non optimized landbases when it comes to 5c decks because I just cant justify putting 5+K into a landbase and feeling comfortable transporting that around.

It would be hard to play a competative deck and not use an optimized landbase. I think a lot of people aren't playing to that level though and probably could in some situations scale back. My solution in a lot of cases is just to play more mono colored decks and two color decks.
Expand Signature
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Edgar Markov | Bruna | Jori En | Heliod | Sai
[Modern] Allies

Tags:

User avatar
Airi
Magical Yaoi Gentleman
Posts: 101
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: she / her
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by Airi » 3 months ago

It feels not great to try to run decks in like Jeskai or Grixis without duals. I've taken more than a few decks apart because I wasn't willing to shell out for duals, but didn't love how the deck played without them, where it felt awkward and clunky in a lot of places.

Can I make a deck work without that kind of thing? Technically, yes. Do I like how it feels when it's slowed down because of it? Absolutely not. And there's not really a good answer to things like that while the reserve list exists. Can I make do with Fauna Shaman? Sure. Is it soooooo much worse feeling than Survival of the Fittest? It's not even a question.
Expand Signature

pokken
Posts: 849
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 243 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by pokken » 3 months ago

cryogen wrote:
3 months ago
pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Not every manabase has to have duals. I only play the duals I own and its definitely made me more creative with mana. Sometimes i just play shocks and sometimes i play weird stuff.

Feeling like you need to have dual lands in every deck is part of the arms race problem. People didnt used to feel like that when I started playing.
Interesting. I started playing in 2011 and I've ALWAYS felt like I needed them. I don't think it's so much that players feel like they don't need them, it's that they're realistic and know that they aren't worth the expense most of the time. But strictly speaking, every deck "needs" them as they are hands down the best dual lands in the format.
Running out of fetchlands is more the bottleneck for me. I'm out of scalding tarns and verdant catacombs now and I'm not interested in getting more :P

But when my group started playing no one ran more than one or two fetchlands except our one guy who had played since revised, and he only ran on color fetches. And no one really cared. We ran tainted lands, nimbus maze, all the crazy duals, and everyone's mana was fine.

I think we have different definition of needs. Like all decks "need" a mox diamond but I make do with it only in a couple decks, and there's nothing horribly wrong with the deck. If your goal is to be optimized sure. But need is a different thing in commander. I'd agree that all decks *want* duals. Because they're great. But you can make fine, solid decks without them.
Airi wrote:
3 months ago
It feels not great to try to run decks in like Jeskai or Grixis without duals. I've taken more than a few decks apart because I wasn't willing to shell out for duals, but didn't love how the deck played without them, where it felt awkward and clunky in a lot of places.
Jeskai and Grixis have such great filtering I find with a little discipline you can just play lots of fetches and then add a the ally color cycling dual and/or the tango, and you're fine. They also want to run a lot of artifacts most of the time. I'd always rather run 6 fetches and 3 shocks than 3 fetches and 6 shocks/duals in those decks anyway (obviously not that this is an either or situation, just, budgetary speaking it's a lot cheaper).

I think we're not super far away from being able to build some very reasonable manabases without them; the completed set of tangos would basically be good enough for me most of the time.

User avatar
cryogen
GΘΔ†
Posts: 472
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Westminster, MD
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 153 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by cryogen » 3 months ago

Lol, yeah. I need more enemy fetches but sheesh.
Expand Signature
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

User avatar
Airi
Magical Yaoi Gentleman
Posts: 101
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: she / her
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by Airi » 3 months ago

pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Airi wrote:
3 months ago
It feels not great to try to run decks in like Jeskai or Grixis without duals. I've taken more than a few decks apart because I wasn't willing to shell out for duals, but didn't love how the deck played without them, where it felt awkward and clunky in a lot of places.
Jeskai and Grixis have such great filtering I find with a little discipline you can just play lots of fetches and then add a the ally color cycling dual and/or the tango, and you're fine. They also want to run a lot of artifacts most of the time. I'd always rather run 6 fetches and 3 shocks than 3 fetches and 6 shocks/duals in those decks anyway (obviously not that this is an either or situation, just, budgetary speaking it's a lot cheaper).

I think we're not super far away from being able to build some very reasonable manabases without them; the completed set of tangos would basically be good enough for me most of the time.
I think it's great that it's something that works for you. But to me, I actively did not enjoy the budget versions of the decks I've built in R/U/x because those tend to be my most limited mana bases. I proxied up the "fixed" versions to test if it was something I'd like to invest in, and then ultimately the price spikes killed the decks. I don't enjoy playing like that, to me a lot of budget options feel slow and clunky, and I'm not okay with it. So my compromise is to not run them. Despite my pro-proxy stance, I actually hate using them personally because of aesthetics so I don't tend to keep them for longer than is needed to save up for whatever portion of the deck I need to order, past testing stuff. And that's just mana bases. That doesn't even get in to cards like Gaea's Cradle, Survival of the Fittest, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Wheel of Fortunate that don't have similar power versions available.

My point though, ultimately, is that "Well, budget is basically the same thing". It's not, and if you don't agree with proxies, that's perfectly fine. But as a general argument, it's one I hate seeing, because to me at least, it feels very dishonest, because a lot of times those RL cards to make the difference to how it feels to play the deck.
Expand Signature

pokken
Posts: 849
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 243 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Airi wrote:
3 months ago
My point though, ultimately, is that "Well, budget is basically the same thing". It's not, and if you don't agree with proxies, that's perfectly fine. But as a general argument, it's one I hate seeing, because to me at least, it feels very dishonest, because a lot of times those RL cards to make the difference to how it feels to play the deck.
I don't understand that really; gaea's cradle drastically increases the power of a green deck, volcanic island is a tiny incremental advantage.

I am getting a mishra's workshop for my Tymna and Ludevic affinity deck that has a fairly budget manabase (only on-color fetches, no duals) because it's going to seriously impact the power level. But a little better fixing? I don't think that makes a huge difference. It's really a modest power level difference.

I played Miracles in legacy with no tundras (just a hallowed fountain and 2x prairie stream) and it was perfectly fine. The percentage points lost for not having those be tundras was tiny. In EDH the difference is even smaller because we get to run stupid mana fixing like signets. I wasn't going to take it to any GPs but for casual playing around it was barely noticeable.

I can get on board with someone proxying Bazaar of Baghdad in their Gitrog deck, but proxying Bayou just seems weird to me. It is such a tiny power level difference. It doesn't make a significant difference in how the deck plays.

Even in non-green decks you can almost always get by with just shocks and rainbow lands and maybe a smattering of nimbus maze and luxury suite or whatever.

User avatar
Airi
Magical Yaoi Gentleman
Posts: 101
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: she / her
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by Airi » 3 months ago

Like I said, I think it's awesome that it's something that you don't notice in your deck building. I personally have noticed a drastic different when I've upgraded my mana base (even in green decks), and budget dual typed lands work. They do. They are also significantly worse than ABUR duals, and I don't think it's fair to pretend otherwise. And for certain color types, I just don't enjoy how the deck plays using the slower lands when it comes to color fixing. Especially since a lot of dual typed lands don't have full cycles outside of shocks and ABUR duals. Straight up, it's not something I enjoy playing.

Now, I am fortunate that outside of U/R or U/G, I have as many of the ABUR duals as I need, so it's not a compromise I need to make often outside of my two 5c decks (which doesn't matter for Golos/Kenrith, but does actually hurt Najeela quite a bit). I simply tend to avoid Grixis and Jeskai. I'm not going to get something I enjoy out of those colors with what I currently have, and I'm not going to be able to fill the gaps in my collection any time soon. That being said, I want other people to be able to build something like my Marath deck, that plays exactly as smoothly as they want it, and I don't really feel like someone should have to shell out a fortune to get there in a casual game. That just kind of makes me feel bad. And, while I know you keep directing my post back to dual lands, it's not just about dual lands. There are a lot of cards people get priced out of that to me, they shouldn't really have to compromise on.

If other people are against proxying, that's their prerogative. But I'm never going to ask someone to actively pursue a worse deck simply because I inherited a bunch of old, expensive cards, and they didn't. And to me personally, playing with budget alternatives often straight up feels worse, and I'm not going to put that on the people I play with.
Expand Signature

pokken
Posts: 849
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 243 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Yeah, I was confining my comments very specifically to dual lands. I can't argue with your feelings -- if you feel it you feel it. But objectively, adding abur duals to a deck is an absolute minuscule power level increase if you're running all the fetches already.

I'm much more receptive to people proxying things that are required for the deck to function (e.g. survival of the fittest) than cards that make your manabase a tiny bit more consistent.

If not having a card locks you out of playing the deck, sure, but I've played with dozens of decks that don't have ABUR duals and still whomp on people.

Why do I draw the line there? I dunno really. Just feels like a slippery slope to me to draw it to the right of "Do you need this expensive card for the deck to function." If you aren't going to draw the line at duals, why draw them at shocks or fetches? Then just proxy everything if you want, and we're not playing a collectible card game anymore. Let's just bust out our tablets and play xmage.

User avatar
tstorm823
Knowledge Pool
Posts: 192
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: York, PA
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Post by tstorm823 » 3 months ago

cryogen wrote:
3 months ago
Interesting. I started playing in 2011 and I've ALWAYS felt like I needed them. I don't think it's so much that players feel like they don't need them, it's that they're realistic and know that they aren't worth the expense most of the time. But strictly speaking, every deck "needs" them as they are hands down the best dual lands in the format.
I don't know, I give them a "doesn't scry 1" out of 10
Expand Signature
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

User avatar
Cow31337Killer
Posts: 139
Joined: 5 months ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Post by Cow31337Killer » 3 months ago

cryogen wrote:
3 months ago
pokken wrote:
3 months ago
Not every manabase has to have duals. I only play the duals I own and its definitely made me more creative with mana. Sometimes i just play shocks and sometimes i play weird stuff.

Feeling like you need to have dual lands in every deck is part of the arms race problem. People didnt used to feel like that when I started playing.
Interesting. I started playing in 2011 and I've ALWAYS felt like I needed them. I don't think it's so much that players feel like they don't need them, it's that they're realistic and know that they aren't worth the expense most of the time. But strictly speaking, every deck "needs" them as they are hands down the best dual lands in the format.
This is why monocolor decks are the best :grin: I'll take 35 Forests over expensive dual lands any day.

User avatar
Morganelefay
Posts: 75
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Post by Morganelefay » 3 months ago

I don't mind temp proxies, like testing out cards that are pricey but you don't know if they're actually worth it, like a Selvala, Heart of the Wilds in a deck with fatties. However, if you keep the proxy in for several months, that's a no go as far as I'm concerned. I feel overuse of proxies is unfair to those who do actually obtain the actual cards.
Expand Signature
EDH Decks:

Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis - Arise, Lord Hogaak.
Grumgully, the Generous - The wonderful world of Ferngully.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw Cards Tribal.
Pir, Imaginative Rascal & Toothy, Imaginary Friend - Imaginary Superfriends.
Selvala, Explorer Returned - Taxes, Denial and Fatties.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds - Dinos and Eldrazis, oh my.
Ayara, First of Locthwain - March of the Black Queen.
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh - Chandra Tribal.
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim - Curious Contraptions

BeneTleilax
Posts: 38
Joined: 4 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by BeneTleilax » 3 months ago

Although I only use proxies to represent cards I already own in other decks, to spare myself the hassle of swapping cards out between games, I'm decidedly in favor of them. To that end, I'll give my answer to a few of the most common arguments against them. I'm not trying to paraphrase any particular posts, just to get at the what seem to be the shared objections.

[*]They invalidate people who buy the cards.

I just don't think this is true. What someone else does with their deck doesn't invalidate your choices. If I run flicker-Feather, that doesn't take anything from your heroic-tribal Feather deck. On the contrary, telling someone how they can and cannot build their deck does take away from their experience. If seeing someone else running the same card as you without paying for it makes you question your purchase, you may need to reevaluate your MtG budget.

[*]It prevents pub-stomping.

If budget is your only check against pub-stomping, you are going to run into issues as soon as the first That Guy at your table gets a bonus. While quality of cards owned does correlate with time invested in the game, which in turn correlates with respect for table norms, the chain is loose. Moreso, it correlates with personal wealth and gaming budget, neither of which correspond to good table etiquette. Just the other day, I ran across a high-schooler playing with his dad's collection, who Cradle'd out a Craterhoof turn 4-or-so in my casual group.

One thing I have noticed is that suddenly allowing proxies often creates a disruptive boom in power-level. However, this forces the power-level discussion, as opposed to the slow and often unspoken arms-race that normally occurs as people build their collections. And hey, if it turns out y'all don't want to play with Cradle or whatever, no-one wasted several hundred dollars to find out. If anything, proxies allow your group to determine the power-level they want independent of budgets and sunk costs. Anyone who decides to break the norms of such an agreement with proxies was going to do so anyway the next time they decide to splurge.

[*]It hurts WotC
WotC is a multi-million dollar IP, owned by one of the biggest toy brands in the world. I do not fear for their ability to put food on the table. Also, they overwhelmingly invest their R&D in Standard and Limited, I don't see this changing, and I'm not interested in subsidizing those. Furthermore, and this may be getting into unrelated hot-take territory, I don't much like their arrangement with the secondary market. Thus even if the miraculous sea-change in player spending some are discussing came to pass, and made them re-evaluate their focus on singles resellers over players and LGS's, I would hardly weep.

User avatar
cryogen
GΘΔ†
Posts: 472
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Westminster, MD
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 153 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by cryogen » 3 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 months ago
cryogen wrote:
3 months ago
Interesting. I started playing in 2011 and I've ALWAYS felt like I needed them. I don't think it's so much that players feel like they don't need them, it's that they're realistic and know that they aren't worth the expense most of the time. But strictly speaking, every deck "needs" them as they are hands down the best dual lands in the format.
I don't know, I give them a "doesn't scry 1" out of 10
Nice to see someone else here who likes the Temple lands. Everyone seems to dunk on them most times.
Expand Signature
Sheldon wrote:You're the reason we can't have nice things.

pokken
Posts: 849
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 243 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Something I've been thinking about in reference to why I hate seeing a deck full of proxies, especially bad ones, but period--

So I used to play a lot of warhammer back in the day and the price of the official models was always a huge point of contention. We had guys wanting to use knockoffs or even using just round bases with stickers on them at some points. We also had lots of unpainted models, or models that didn't have the right bitz on them, or even just hideous lazy paint jobs. It always impacted the fun at least some, to a varying degree.

Magic is a game where part of the contract is that we're all playing with the same pieces. Not just the rules of the card but the card. The aesthetic side of the game is meaningful. Every so often I'll run into someone with Russian foils altered with boobs all over them or whatever ridiculous thing. I can't read it, I can't identify it by the picture, and having to ask is disconcerting for card after card.

Proxies kinda slide into similar space for me. When they are completely indistinguishable or at least have the full rules text and recognizable art not horrid. But low quality or even just obvious proxies kinda is frustrating.

Part of the enjoyment of the game is in the fact that we're all playing with these cards we've collected and sharing the same experience. A bunch of photocopies are not the same thing. And if we're mandating high quality proxies its pretty flirty with condoning counterfeiting.

Paper magic is more than the rules of the cards at least on some level.

Anyway I definitely feel the conflict there so I'm not ever going to come down on someone for proxies. But it does hit my enjoyment a bit when I see a big kinkos pile. And I don't think it's right to say that (as I've heard said particularly on reddit) its basically unreasonable to be discomfited by proxies.

I wish wizards would take seriously making the game more accessible but I really am hesitant to completely toss out the collectible and aesthetic side this hobby and reduce it purely to numbers and a ruleset.

User avatar
gilrad
Posts: 51
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Been thanked: 8 times

Post by gilrad » 2 months ago

I'd like to know peoples' thoughts on proxying cards as a way to reduce the overall value of the cards you bring with you.

It's something I've been considering ever since the Theft and Protection thread came about, which in turn came about because of my comment on being unwilling to run timetwister due to the practicality of carrying around thousands of dollars with you.

I already have a few cards in my collection that I ended up pulling out of my decks because the value of the cards went well beyond the threshold of what I would be comfortable carrying with me in the street. I still want to play the cards, but the thought of carrying around all that money just doesn't feel right.

I'm honestly amazed at how many people in this thread casually mention bringing decks with Tabernacles or Workshops or Bazaars in them. Would you feel the same about going to the bar with friends while carrying $2,000 in your wallet?

pokken
Posts: 849
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 243 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by pokken » 2 months ago

gilrad wrote:
2 months ago
I'd like to know peoples' thoughts on proxying cards as a way to reduce the overall value of the cards you bring with you.

It's something I've been considering ever since the Theft and Protection thread came about, which in turn came about because of my comment on being unwilling to run timetwister due to the practicality of carrying around thousands of dollars with you.

I already have a few cards in my collection that I ended up pulling out of my decks because the value of the cards went well beyond the threshold of what I would be comfortable carrying with me in the street. I still want to play the cards, but the thought of carrying around all that money just doesn't feel right.

I'm honestly amazed at how many people in this thread casually mention bringing decks with Tabernacles or Workshops or Bazaars in them. Would you feel the same about going to the bar with friends while carrying $2,000 in your wallet?
I'm probably a special case because I specifically have insurance to cover me for this because I want to play my cards.

For me the issue is that the number of cards I would need to take out of decks to be comfortable carrying them without coverage is basically all the cards. I have two decks worth 5000+ dollars at this point. So we're talking defoil Ephara and proxy half the cards, proxy half of the cards in Gitrog, and etc etc.

I prefer not to carry over a hundred or so in cash though, I certainly wouldn't walk around with $500 in 20s stuffed in my wallet.

I don't see that reducing your loss from 3000 to 1500 would be worth proxying. It's still horrendous. I would feel absolutely horrible if I lost my Ludevic+Tymna deck even without the workshop.

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 472
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 months ago

gilrad wrote:
2 months ago
I'd like to know peoples' thoughts on proxying cards as a way to reduce the overall value of the cards you bring with you.

It's something I've been considering ever since the Theft and Protection thread came about, which in turn came about because of my comment on being unwilling to run timetwister due to the practicality of carrying around thousands of dollars with you.

I already have a few cards in my collection that I ended up pulling out of my decks because the value of the cards went well beyond the threshold of what I would be comfortable carrying with me in the street. I still want to play the cards, but the thought of carrying around all that money just doesn't feel right.

I'm honestly amazed at how many people in this thread casually mention bringing decks with Tabernacles or Workshops or Bazaars in them. Would you feel the same about going to the bar with friends while carrying $2,000 in your wallet?
So, I guess I will also speak from the standpoint of someone who did own (I sold it recently to pay off debt in preparation for a child) a tabernacle. I played it all the time and I even lent out said deck now and then (primarily people I knew well). I still own a number of very expensive cards like Bazaar and Moat and I love playing those cards.

I have considered proxying them before but primarily I don't because I love playing with the real cards. Its not that I trust everyone around me or anything and to be honest I do try to keep all of my cards I am not immediately playing with in my bag which I keep zipped up next to me at all times. I tend to not go to the bathroom during games and between games if I use the restroom I tend to pack them all up and carry my bag with me. People ask me all the time if I am heading out but really I just don't leave my things unattended.

All this said, I am fine with people proxying cards of that level as long as they can prove that they own them. Its just a lot more fun to play with and against the real cards that I personally don't like doing it if I can avoid it. I should get insurance on my collection but I have been paying down my debts very aggressively. I payed for a mortgage for most of the last 2 years for a house nobody was living in and then sold said house at a big loss and my focus was more to pay off that before getting insurance on my things. It is in fact a risk to go out in public with these things, but I just love getting to see and play with the real thing. I will be honest though that I often shy away from 5c decks because of the landbases and feeling uncomfortable having so much money in one place.
Expand Signature
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Edgar Markov | Bruna | Jori En | Heliod | Sai
[Modern] Allies

schweinefett
Posts: 30
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by schweinefett » 2 months ago

I dont think i really mind either way. I personally use those championship deck cards as standins, but thats about it. i only have 2 cataclysms, and i use one extra i took from the mono white weenie campion deck. i also have 2 championship gaeas cradles, since ive only 1 from urzas saga.

but i dont hold others to my standard (not that its particularly high). I have a mate who prints out his deck down to the commons even. I dont really care, unless it's badly cut paper pieces so then it becoems obvious what cards are what even in a sleeve.

I will say though, I've got a 360 card fully powered cube at home that i doubt i'd ever bring anywhere. all those ABU duals, fetches, lotus, moxen, time vault, and whatnot isn't really worth risking for. That's probably why i run such janky low-powered decks in EDH.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Rules and Philosophy”