What Would You Ban/Unban?

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Skello496
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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

Simple question guys!
What would you Ban or Unban? We'll go by a top 3 banlist changes, I'm Curious what you guys would do!
1. Unban Biorhythm ( because we have Shaman of Forgotten Ways so... why not?)
2. Unban Balance
3. Unban Gifts Ungiven

As you can see, I go for a smaller banlist...
with that said, I really do think Balance should be unbanned. It allows for a white/Boros deck to balance out (pun intended) the lands and slows down the opponents to the pace of a mono-white deck. Yes, it's annoying, but... run more removal?
And Gifts... I just think it should be allowed. It's totally fine as a card.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I would still unban gifts and recurring nightmare, and if it were somehow increased in availability I think Library would be fine.

I also think Fastbond is borderline.

As far as bans I would probably ban a lot of weird %$#% no one would want to ban, like Torment of Hailfire and Rhystic Study. It's probably a good thing I'm not in charge lol :)

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Post by Impossible » 4 years ago

I would make it my personal mission to gut fast mana, starting with the trifecta of Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Mana Crypt.
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Post by Myllior » 4 years ago

I'd like to try Sway of the Stars, Panoptic Mirror and Worldfire in the format, so they'd be my unbans. If I could only unban one, it'd be Sway of the Stars; the control aspect of being able to reset the whole game, with upside for you if you have the mana, really intrigues me.

For bans, fast mana would likely be first on my radar as well*, with Mana Crypt absolutely being the first one to be axed. Cost is a strong factor for me with MTG in general (although the threshold beyond which I consider a card too expensive is too low to be appropriately applicable to the format as a whole), so Mox Diamond and Grim Monolith would be next.

*Don't get me started on cards like Torment of Hailfire, which is many times worse than Craterhoof Behemoth in my book. (I am biased towards the Behemoth though, so hey).
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

I'd unban Primeval Titan|M12 and Sylvan Primordial|GTC in a heartbeat. I don't buy the arguments that these cards are too dangerous for the format as it stands today. In terms of bans there are definitely some cards I personally don't like (I'm looking at you Necropotence and Cyclonic Rift|RTR) but none that I think deserve to be banned for the sake of the format. Overall I'm in favor of a much smaller banlist and trusting players not to be jerks.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

God, a lot of these unbans would be terrible.

I think people who argue for Prime Time forget, or never experienced, how annoying it was for every game with a green deck to become steal the Titan.

Balance would be an awful addition. It single handedly ruins games, and makes artifact decks even better. Does the format really benefit from a card that let's people spit out a bunch ofana rocks then cast balance to knock out everyone's hands (not even getting into the potential to sandbag lands to add an mld angle on top).

Worldfire et al are miserable cards that make everything that came before irrelevant and single handedly ruin games even more than balance. Biorythmn also differs from Shaman in that it catches people by surprise without help, while shaman gives opponents a means to respond by being a creature that needs to tap.

For me, I'd ban Mana crypt, which is more problematic than Sol Ring, as a gesture to the anti fast Mana crowd. I think that would be enough to reduce the reliability of fast Mana and God hands. I'd unban recurring nightmare as there are enough ways already to get repetitive with recursion and nightmare let's you do so with goofier stuff than normal

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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

This is what my ban list would look like. I'd also unban Wish effects.
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Post by umtiger » 4 years ago

I want a playable Balance effect as much as the next person. I mean, my Sram aura deck really just needs one land and one creature. But 1W mean it's not remotely close to being unbannable. Just be satisfied that they printed Tragic Arrogance and move on.

I will always ride the "not ban anything" bus/train/plane for as long as I play, but I'd actually like to see Aetherflux Reservoir go. It's not just incredibly easy to 50 someone but it's actually incredibly easy to 50 everyone. Most of the time I see it (and most of the time I play it), it's a counterspell that cancels a player from the game. The right way to play against it is:
1.) Always chip in for damage whenever possible. People already don't do this and since the printing of Aetherflux, it still hasn't changed for some reason? For the love of the game, please chip in for damage at all times, even if no one is playing Aetherflux.
2.) Always try to keep players from obtaining 50 life. And whenever someone is at 50, you can't not attack them anymore like you used to be able to. Once upon a time, when someone's life total got too high, you'd just leave them alone until you can commander them. But Aetherflux changed the game.
3.) If someone with an Aetherflux in play has 50+ but not a large enough buffer, you got to make them act on it. Either attack them to below 50 or destroy Aetherflux. A lower skilled player will 100% just use Aetherflux on you in response and remove you. But at least the game will end much quicker when they get cracked back. It does suck to have the game end for you though.
Myllior wrote:
4 years ago
I'd like to try Sway of the Stars, Panoptic Mirror and Worldfire in the format, so they'd be my unbans. If I could only unban one, it'd be Sway of the Stars; the control aspect of being able to reset the whole game, with upside for you if you have the mana, really intrigues me.

For bans, fast mana would likely be first on my radar as well*, with Mana Crypt absolutely being the first one to be axed. Cost is a strong factor for me with MTG in general (although the threshold beyond which I consider a card too expensive is too low to be appropriately applicable to the format as a whole), so Mox Diamond and Grim Monolith would be next.

*Don't get me started on cards like Torment of Hailfire, which is many times worse than Craterhoof Behemoth in my book. (I am biased towards the Behemoth though, so hey).
From my point of view, almost everything about your post is ridiculous.

Sway of the Stars is straight up ridiculous. It literally invalidates everything that happened up to that point; the "7 life" clause makes the card even more horrible than Upheaval to me.

Without "fast mana," get ready for an all-green format (as if the format wasn't mostly already green). Mana Crypt is not even as good as Sol Ring. "Cost" is an arbitrary goalpost that doesn't even matter in a casual format. There is no reason why anyone is compelled to play any "staple" because this is a casual format and so many people already proxy.

You can't just ban every card you lose to. Torment of Hailfire is not good enough at anything besides ending games and at that point, its cmc is appropriate.
onering wrote:
4 years ago
For me, I'd ban Mana crypt, which is more problematic than Sol Ring, as a gesture to the anti fast Mana crowd. I think that would be enough to reduce the reliability of fast Mana and God hands.
I find the opposite to be true in most of the games that I play. T1 Sol Ring hands are not God hands, but are mostly bad keeps that players make just for the sake of having Sol Ring.

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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

That's an easy one. Since "perceived barrier to entry" is no longer a ban criterium, and fast mana is not a problem in a "self-policing multiplayer format" (at least according to the omniscient RC and a handful of advokists), it's about time we unbanned the original moxen. They have no business being banned under these circumstances. In addition, they would also give non-green decks the boost they apparently desperately need.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Jokes aside, my top three changes would be:

1) & 2) ban Sol Ring and Mana Crypt
3) Unban Gifts Ungiven. Like Hermit Druid and Protean Hulk, it's only problematic when you try to deliberately break it. Since the Hulk was recently let off, Gifts should be given a chance as well.

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Post by umtiger » 4 years ago

Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
1) & 2) ban Sol Ring and Mana Crypt
3) Unban Gifts Ungiven. Like Hermit Druid and Protean Hulk, it's only problematic when you try to deliberately break it. Since the Hulk was recently let off, Gifts should be given a chance as well.
Can't you apply the same thinking for your proposed unbans in #3 to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt?

Unless you're deliberately trying to break games, how problematic is it being able to play a Gisela, Blade of Goldnight on turn 5 instead of turn 7?

But yes, overall, more unbans please.

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Post by Serpent_Steve » 4 years ago

I'd also choose unbans first but there are certainly cards I would like to shove on that list.

Unbans
1) Recurring Nightmare I feel that a big part of this card being fine for me is the fact it can only be accessed at sorcery speed. Makes it very easy to interact with it.
2) Trade Secrets Also feel this is more fine than not. It should be obvious that you are never going to get the value that the person using it is but a couple of cards is nice.
3) Library of Alexandria I know this card is great for legacy/vintage but I've never been sure exactly why this is on the banlist. Drawing a card as a tap ability if you have exactly 7 cards in hand never seemed too strong for commander standards to me lol.

as for bans...

Banned
1) Cyclonic Rift The card scales badly in commander games to my liking and I appreciate that WotC are printing fairer versions of this card but I'd be happier of this were gone.
2) Contamination A royal pain in the backside card that just sends artifact based decks well over the competition. Plus it's pretty hard to respond to since you can only make in response with lands.
3) Stasis You can try to convince me otherwise but I don't think I've ever seen Stasis used fairly in a commander deck.

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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

umtiger wrote:
4 years ago
Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
1) & 2) ban Sol Ring and Mana Crypt
3) Unban Gifts Ungiven. Like Hermit Druid and Protean Hulk, it's only problematic when you try to deliberately break it. Since the Hulk was recently let off, Gifts should be given a chance as well.
Can't you apply the same thinking for your proposed unbans in #3 to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt?
No, I cannot.
The "abusing" variant of Gifts Ungiven is double Entomb, which is only really useful in reanimator decks. And they are all about cheating stuff into play way earlier than one "should" play it.
The Protean Hulk Combo needs creature-based reanimation, a (preferrably creature-based) sac outlet and a way to capitalize on it. These dacks are also usually well aware of what they are trying to do.
Hermit Druid abuse requires you to run zero basics. That only happens when it's deliberate.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, well... they want cards that cost 2 or more generic mana. If we limit it to cmc 2-6, since the tempo discrepancy starts to wear off as mana costs get higher, we are looking at literally almost 11.000 cards. And among those are numerous examples of cards that are "just good" on their own but very problematic when they hit two turns earlier. Tezzeret the Seeker, Smothering Tithe, Consecrated Sphinx, Gilded Lotus, Arcane Signet and friends, the list goes on...

tl,dr: I'd have to bend over backwards to not be able to "break" fast mana.

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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

I'd like to see what Recurring Nightmare could do but it's not hard to imagine it being ridiculous. Sure, reanimator can get things out in opening turns but my goodness RN seems hard to put a stop to. You'd have to exile it or play archenemy. Recurring Nightmare is a hell of an ongoing scheme
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Post by umtiger » 4 years ago

Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
No, I cannot.
The "abusing" variant of Gifts Ungiven is double Entomb, which is only really useful in reanimator decks. And they are all about cheating stuff into play way earlier than one "should" play it.
The Protean Hulk Combo needs creature-based reanimation, a (preferrably creature-based) sac outlet and a way to capitalize on it. These dacks are also usually well aware of what they are trying to do.
Hermit Druid abuse requires you to run zero basics. That only happens when it's deliberate.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, well... they want cards that cost 2 or more generic mana. If we limit it to cmc 2-6, since the tempo discrepancy starts to wear off as mana costs get higher, we are looking at literally almost 11.000 cards. And among those are numerous examples of cards that are "just good" on their own but very problematic when they hit two turns earlier. Tezzeret the Seeker, Smothering Tithe, Consecrated Sphinx, Gilded Lotus, Arcane Signet and friends, the list goes on...

tl,dr: I'd have to bend over backwards to not be able to "break" fast mana.
Gifts Ungiven is still "double Entomb" + double Demonic Tutor whether you choose to play fairly or not.

If you can trust players to play 2x Entomb + 2x Demonic Tutor fairly, then you can trust players to be responsible with Sol Ring as well.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

In edh right now, reanimater tends trend towards infinite combo. Eventually you just bury alive some gy based combo probably involving necrotic ooze and win once you reanimater it. Otherwise, you get into reanimater for value decks like Meren or Alesha that become a bit repetitive (because if your going to reanimate something every turn it's usually just going to be with the best possible target, and making that available asap). Recurring Nightmare accomplishes much of the same, except it's Mana limited but can be recast multiple times a turn letting you get multiple activations. The card wants value from death and etb creatures more than fatties. It's neat that you will cycle through two different effects (because you'll be cycling through two different creatures hitting the battlefield then getting sacced). It's main problem is that although you can only activate it at sorcery speed you get priority after it enters the battlefield and it returns to your hand as a cost, so nobody has a chance to remove it unless it entering the battlefield triggers something (like constellation, where it would incidentally be fun). It can be countered though, and black sucks at getting back enchantments unless its paired with white or green. It can also be force discarded, the problem creature it returns can be exiled, it rolls over to gy hate, etc. Unlike a lot of cards that loop, there are a ton of ways to disrupt what it's doing. It certainly can be abused, but once your in a position to do so you could have just as easily went of with Hulk or Natural Order, or Worldgorger.

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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

umtiger wrote:
4 years ago
Gifts Ungiven is still "double Entomb" + double Demonic Tutor whether you choose to play fairly or not.

If you can trust players to play 2x Entomb + 2x Demonic Tutor fairly, then you can trust players to be responsible with Sol Ring as well.
I played Commander for years now, and never have I Entombed a card that I would have gotten with Demonic Tutor in the same situation. Your hyperbole requires a very cooperative "opponent". This means I'm not only trusting the Gifts player, I'm also trusting the targeted opponent to not deliberately sabotage themselves, which, by the way, is a lot more likely.
However, this train of thought made me actually reconsider my opinion on Gifts Ungiven, because it made me realise an uncanny similiarity to the banned Trade Secrets.

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Post by umtiger » 4 years ago

Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
I played Commander for years now, and never have I Entombed a card that I would have gotten with Demonic Tutor in the same situation. Your hyperbole requires a very cooperative "opponent". This means I'm not only trusting the Gifts player, I'm also trusting the targeted opponent to not deliberately sabotage themselves, which, by the way, is a lot more likely.
For the record, I also would like a Gifts unban.

Was my statement hyperbolic, sure. But...
1.) put it in a Muldrotha deck and the statement is quite close to being true for permanents
2.) put it in a Dralnu deck and the statement is quite close to being true for instants and sorceries
3.) put it in my Child of Alara Lands.dec and its 3 lands + Life from the Loam every time

I just don't think Gifts requires any cooperation nor do I think it requires much build-around-me for it to be awesome as advertised.

Also for the record, I think it's better than Demonic Tutor. Look, I'm not exactly making a good case for it to come off.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

My own changes as I would change things:

UNBAN:
Braids, Cabal Minion - I like encouraging players to interact with the game and not sit back doing nothing all game. I think that Braids actually isn't that bad as the format gets older.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - I remember when I would auto include most of the eldrazi in every list. I just feel like a lot has changed since we banned it and while its not fun to lose to this, I also think that commander has come a long ways since the days where this was everywhere.
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant - The places where Erayo is a problem tend to be decks I would argue are playing much more competitive magic than the rest of the table. Erayo isn't going to get into play and flip quickly against a lot of tables unless its tuned to an extreme. You need an incredibly tuned and fast deck to pull Erayo off and while yes, it can totally be done my argument is more that the level of deck it takes isn't what this banned list is geared for as well as being something I would say the social angle kind of covers.
Gifts Ungiven - This banned list already isn't geared to stop combo so I would argue that in favor of consistency it should be removed.
Library of Alexandria - I don't actually see an issue with this card. I feel like there is a good bit of price consideration that keeps it banned. The argument that it would go everywhere could just as easily be argued for Sol Ring.
Panoptic Mirror - I am fine either way, but really its incredibly slow. I get the whole miserable game state thing but there are a lot of cards that can create miserable gamestates and as a combo win its actually not that impressive.
Sundering Titan - If the argument is that it becomes MLD, then be consistent and hit the other MLD effects. I just feel that this ban is quite inconsistent and I always have.
Tolarian Academy - I am not convinced in the consistancy of this card in 100 card singleton. Having multiple artifacts + this land + a mana sink all early is not that likely.

BAN:
Craterhoof Behemoth - I hate this card, so much. It just eclipses every other type of overrun effect in almost every case. Being a creature and thus tutorable just makes it worse.
Expropriate - I have never seen this card do something interesting or fun. Its like the fun police.

Well, I guess that is about what I would do offhand. I maybe would have more things I would ban, but that is where I would start.
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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

As far as it goes, Having Tolarian Academy banned means Gaea's Cradle should also be banned. In my opinion, at least.
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Post by Vertain » 4 years ago

umtiger wrote:
4 years ago
Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
I played Commander for years now, and never have I Entombed a card that I would have gotten with Demonic Tutor in the same situation. Your hyperbole requires a very cooperative "opponent". This means I'm not only trusting the Gifts player, I'm also trusting the targeted opponent to not deliberately sabotage themselves, which, by the way, is a lot more likely.
For the record, I also would like a Gifts unban.

Was my statement hyperbolic, sure. But...
1.) put it in a Muldrotha deck and the statement is quite close to being true for permanents
2.) put it in a Dralnu deck and the statement is quite close to being true for instants and sorceries
3.) put it in my Child of Alara Lands.dec and its 3 lands + Life from the Loam every time

I just don't think Gifts requires any cooperation nor do I think it requires much build-around-me for it to be awesome as advertised.

Also for the record, I think it's better than Demonic Tutor. Look, I'm not exactly making a good case for it to come off.
True, Gifts Ungiven is a fine card on its own, but It does require said things to be problematic. Also, aside from Life from the Loam, your examples function solely on synergy with one's commander, which is quite literally a case of build-around-me (more around the commander than Gifts, but still).

I have to disagree on the comparison with Demonic Tutor though. Sure, it's not as flashy and doesn't enable good plays like Gifts would, but it's 100% reliable. When it resolves, it gives you exactly the one card you're looking for. No extra hoops to jump through, and your opponents don't get a say either. But ultimately we're comparing apples and oranges here, both cards have clear advantages and disadvantages over each other and I'm afraid going further would lead off-topic.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

I'm in a weird camp.

I would unban:
Biorhythm: It's hard to cheat the cast of this, and it punishes players who have no creatures or counterspells. Yes, it could be used to end a game after a boardwipe, but, I don't think that's any worse than a lot of other conditional 'end the game' spells that are still legal. Like Insurrection, or similar. It rewards wide boards and punishes narrow ones, and I think that's probably okay.

Coalition Victory: Not my cup of tea, but okay. Given there are more efficient combo decks, this is probably fine. Also, it is more easily disrupted than other very efficient combo decks (remove your 5 colour general in response!), so, there's that.

Fastbond: This is probably fine. Most of the time, my experience with additional land plays (Exploration, Burgeoning, etc.) has been "well, I'm out of lands in hand now". It puts you ahead, but no further ahead than other legal cards. Obviously it becomes more problematic if it's the middle of the game and you draw a ton of cards, but, this doesn't strike me as all that different than landing a big Traverse the Outlands (I once Traversed for fifty. 50. I only played with high 20s basics in that deck), or a big mill with Mending of Dominaria/Splendid Reclamation. It's merely 'good' unless you build around it, and if you do build around it, it's "pretty good".

I would ban:
Deadeye Navigator: Like Paradox Engine, this card is either underwhelming, or breaking the game. It has no middle ground where it's interesting, and it's fairly difficult to interact with.

Survival of the Fittest: It subtly ruins games. Even when used in a 'fair' way, the Survival player always has the right answer from the plethora of ETB creatures in existence now, and is casually building towards an endgame, one green mana at a time. When used unfairly, it's one of the most degenerate combo enablers out there.

Mindslaver: Rarely a good play experience, Mindslaver only ever sees play when it's going to be recurred over and over and over again. At least Emrakul, the Promised End has a prohibitive mana cost and gives you a 'real' turn after you get mind controlled. It's hard to ult Sorin Markov who is probably going to just set you to 10 anyway. Worst Fears neatly and cleanly disposes of itself to all but prevent recursion. Cruel Entertainment opens up the game to some politicking, or is symmetrical. Mindslaver is just nasty and unfun.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
umtiger wrote:
4 years ago
Vertain wrote:
4 years ago
I played Commander for years now, and never have I Entombed a card that I would have gotten with Demonic Tutor in the same situation. Your hyperbole requires a very cooperative "opponent". This means I'm not only trusting the Gifts player, I'm also trusting the targeted opponent to not deliberately sabotage themselves, which, by the way, is a lot more likely.
For the record, I also would like a Gifts unban.

Was my statement hyperbolic, sure. But...
1.) put it in a Muldrotha deck and the statement is quite close to being true for permanents
2.) put it in a Dralnu deck and the statement is quite close to being true for instants and sorceries
3.) put it in my Child of Alara Lands.dec and its 3 lands + Life from the Loam every time

I just don't think Gifts requires any cooperation nor do I think it requires much build-around-me for it to be awesome as advertised.

Also for the record, I think it's better than Demonic Tutor. Look, I'm not exactly making a good case for it to come off.
True, Gifts Ungiven is a fine card on its own, but It does require said things to be problematic. Also, aside from Life from the Loam, your examples function solely on synergy with one's commander, which is quite literally a case of build-around-me (more around the commander than Gifts, but still).

I have to disagree on the comparison with Demonic Tutor though. Sure, it's not as flashy and doesn't enable good plays like Gifts would, but it's 100% reliable. When it resolves, it gives you exactly the one card you're looking for. No extra hoops to jump through, and your opponents don't get a say either. But ultimately we're comparing apples and oranges here, both cards have clear advantages and disadvantages over each other and I'm afraid going further would lead off-topic.
Let's be real, Gifts when used fairly is not a problem at all, but it's banned because you just grab 4 cards that ensure you get exactly what you want. It's not hard at all to build gifts packages that just win the game, nor packages that just end up getting everything you look for into a playable position somehow. When it's a problem, it's an instant speed 4 Mana T&N ftw. It does the same thing as Doomsday but with an easier to hit Mana cost, easier to build around, and without the risk of it blowing up in your face if someone has an answer.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
BAN:
Craterhoof Behemoth - I hate this card, so much. It just eclipses every other type of overrun effect in almost every case. Being a creature and thus tutorable just makes it worse.

For anyone who thinks Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR is "broken" and needs to be banned:

Image

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Post by Serpent_Steve » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
BAN:
Craterhoof Behemoth - I hate this card, so much. It just eclipses every other type of overrun effect in almost every case. Being a creature and thus tutorable just makes it worse.

For anyone who thinks Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR is "broken" and needs to be banned:

Image
Agreed. You can see a Craterhoof Behemoth coming a mile away since it requires lots and mana and a few creatures to get it going. Either Fog or Stifle type effects easily put down hoofie.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
BAN:
Craterhoof Behemoth - I hate this card, so much. It just eclipses every other type of overrun effect in almost every case. Being a creature and thus tutorable just makes it worse.

For anyone who thinks Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR is "broken" and needs to be banned:

Image
Its not that it isn't broadcast, its that most fogs totally suck. If you early draw a fog its completely dead until that stage of a game and you need to keep the mana up for it constantly in case. If we could get like, 2-4 more fogs of the level of Teferi's Protection then perhaps I wouldn't feel so badly about running fogs.

There are plenty of archetypes that don't necessarily have the card advantage to just always add fogs to the deck. There are technically answers for essentially everything in commander, that doesn't mean that some things aren't more niche. Fog works on every combat strategy but I am not saying that every overrun is a problem, just craterhoof.
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