What Would You Ban/Unban?

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Just a personal request but I think this thread would be more valuable if people kept the counter-arguments to a minimum. The topic is what you would do not why what other people would do is wrong.

I find the perspectives pretty interesting but I think people are less likely to share them if they're going to get told why they're wrong.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago

Its not that it isn't broadcast, its that most fogs totally suck. If you early draw a fog its completely dead until that stage of a game and you need to keep the mana up for it constantly in case. If we could get like, 2-4 more fogs of the level of Teferi's Protection then perhaps I wouldn't feel so badly about running fogs.

There are plenty of archetypes that don't necessarily have the card advantage to just always add fogs to the deck. There are technically answers for essentially everything in commander, that doesn't mean that some things aren't more niche. Fog works on every combat strategy but I am not saying that every overrun is a problem, just craterhoof.
Maybe you're rig- WAIT WHAT"S THIS???

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Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR is only an issue for players who don't bother playing any sort of interaction. The card is perfectly fair and encourages fair linear strategies that are healthy for the format. And it gives creature based decks a good finisher that let's them put pressure on combo decks that would otherwise outpace them. Maybe you just need to stop complaining and try a little harder? There's plenty of answers out there that are generally good cards to run anyway.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago

Its not that it isn't broadcast, its that most fogs totally suck. If you early draw a fog its completely dead until that stage of a game and you need to keep the mana up for it constantly in case. If we could get like, 2-4 more fogs of the level of Teferi's Protection then perhaps I wouldn't feel so badly about running fogs.

There are plenty of archetypes that don't necessarily have the card advantage to just always add fogs to the deck. There are technically answers for essentially everything in commander, that doesn't mean that some things aren't more niche. Fog works on every combat strategy but I am not saying that every overrun is a problem, just craterhoof.
Maybe you're rig- WAIT WHAT"S THIS???

(snipped out huge images)

Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR is only an issue for players who don't bother playing any sort of interaction. The card is perfectly fair and encourages fair linear strategies that are healthy for the format. And it gives creature based decks a good finisher that let's them put pressure on combo decks that would otherwise outpace them. Maybe you just need to stop complaining and try a little harder? There's plenty of answers out there that are generally good cards to run anyway.
Most of those are reasonable cards, But they are mostly expensive to cast. There are decks that comeuppance belongs and I do actually play it a fair bit. Cyclonic is a great card as well but its also very heavily telographed usually when the blue player is keeping 7+ mana up repeatedly. I wouldn't actually go so far as to call the spider fog a good card but its... ok.

I am not saying that there shouldn't be good cards to overrun. But I also literally don't have an issue with any of the overrun effects. Try to compare any of the other overrun effects to craterhoof and its almost never close. Triumph of the Hordes is probably the one other card that maybe would come close and a lot of that is based on how weird infect is and how its unchanged for commander. Look at how many other big stompy overrun creatures wizards has printed in the past 5 years and compare them to craterhoof. I think even wizards realized how dumb that card is when you compare newer design mechanics to craterhoof.

Your argument keeps coming back to how there are things that you can do about it. My argument is more about how far above and beyond every other effect it is. Beyond fogs you can also get into Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle, and Propaganda effects. I am not saying that there is nothing you can do about swarm, I am saying that craterhoof maybe shouldn't be so much better than other overrun effects.
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Your argument keeps coming back to how there are things that you can do about it. My argument is more about how far above and beyond every other effect it is. Beyond fogs you can also get into Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle, and Propaganda effects. I am not saying that there is nothing you can do about swarm, I am saying that craterhoof maybe shouldn't be so much better than other overrun effects.
Being the best overrun effect is not a good enough reason to warrant a ban. Like I said before, Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR is a fair card that encourages fair combat based strategies. The nature of EDH makes creature based aggro decks much weaker than in other formats. Craterhoof being gone would put these strategies at even more of a disadvantage than they already are. The card is certainly strong, but at the end of the day it is a justified level of power that requires a good bit of buildup before it can outright win the game. Even then it wins through combat damage which can be very easily negated by a variety of different cards and deck building strategies. It is a card that forces combo decks that would otherwise be able to ignore the token deck at the table actually work to make sure they don't get killed before they can goldfish their way to a win. The point of the banlist is to deal with cards that don't ultimately benefit the format by being legal. That does not describe Craterhoof Behemoth|AVR in the slightest.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Please don't counter argument other people's selections. If you wish to better understand other people's choices you can ask for clarification, but we have a dedicated thread for discussing and debating multiple different cards at once.
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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 4 years ago

I'd actually ban Rest In Peace tbh. Shuts off way too many Mono Red/Black or Rakdos options for 2 mana when there are tons of already played alternatives that don't flat out stop the GY from being a factor in the game and erasing all cards sent to it. Graf Diggers Cage, Bojuka Bog, Ground Seal etc all do a fine job of providing GY hate.

Waiting for 7 mana to hit Meteor Golem or a heavily telegraphed Nevs Disk doesn't seem reasonable in my experience, especially as red has to discard most of the time in order to dig for it.


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Post by Lucifer, Sapere Aude » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
God, a lot of these unbans would be terrible.

I think people who argue for Prime Time forget, or never experienced, how annoying it was for every game with a green deck to become steal the Titan.
Wrong. In my playgroup we have unbanned all the cards and ignoring all bannings since 2012 (that doesn't mean that we play every single unbanned card tough) and the Prime Time comes with a decent frequency in games, and when it comes to steal with Bribery / Control effects / Reanimation, the favorite targets are always stuff like Consecrated Sphinx / Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augure, Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeon Thorns when presents. 2 lands at turn isn't comparable to the massive card advantage that are able to bring those, several of which are even legal in the format. "Warping games" is always a stupid argument to ban something for everybody, because the meta changes from playgroups to playgroups around the whole world (I'm from Italy for example).

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Lucifer, Sapere Aude wrote:
4 years ago
onering wrote:
4 years ago
God, a lot of these unbans would be terrible.

I think people who argue for Prime Time forget, or never experienced, how annoying it was for every game with a green deck to become steal the Titan.
Wrong. In my playgroup we have unbanned all the cards and ignoring all bannings since 2012 (that doesn't mean that we play every single unbanned card tough) and the Prime Time comes with a decent frequency in games, and when it comes to steal with Bribery / Control effects / Reanimation, the favorite targets are always stuff like Consecrated Sphinx / Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augure, Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeon Thorns when presents. 2 lands at turn isn't comparable to the massive card advantage that are able to bring those, several of which are even legal in the format. "Warping games" is always a stupid argument to ban something for everybody, because the meta changes from playgroups to playgroups around the whole world (I'm from Italy for example).
Lol well of course you aren't going to go for prime time when Grislebrand is an option, but if you were paying attention to, well the entire thread in whole or in part, you'd see that we aren't talking about how Prime Time would be in a no banlist environment, but how it would be if it was unbanned on its own. So your response isn't really relevant then is it? "Primeval Titan isn't centralizing I my playgroup because we okay with even more busted, more centralizing cards that are also banned" isn't a rebuttal of "Prime Time is centralizing in the environment that actually exists." No banlist mode can be fun every once in a while, and I'm glad it works for your playgroup, but that's not something the vast majority of people want.

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Post by Lucifer, Sapere Aude » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
Lol well of course you aren't going to go for prime time when Grislebrand is an option
Re-read me please:

several of which are even legal in the format

Even without Grisi around, Prime Time isn't necessairly the first and best choice.
onering wrote:
4 years ago
but how it would be if it was unbanned on its own.
Which was for a period in my playgroup, and still stuff like Sphinx or Gitaxias are far better in terms of pure and raw CA. And the argument "if they die immediately it's no value" it's inconsistent. Realistically opponents will have an immediate answer for them for only so many games. Most of time they will stick long enough to give you the advantage, and 7 cards are always better than 2 lands. So all my points stands, with or without a "no banlist" environment. It's worth the risk to prefer Jin over Prime Time for this matter. High risk, high reward strategy.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Ahem. Please use the ban list discussion thread and don't derail this one. This thread is already borderline close to that one, but different enough that I think there is merit in having it, but if this ban list debate continues then I'll just lock this thread. Thank you.
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Post by HoffOccultist » 4 years ago

Oh boy. If I had complete control over the ban list?

Well, honestly, it'd be almost the same.

I'd unban:
Coalition Victory
Biorhythm
Recurring Nightmare

And I'd add to the list:
Flash
Survivor of EDH 32 Challenge.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

BounceBurnBuff wrote:
4 years ago
I'd actually ban Rest In Peace tbh. Shuts off way too many Mono Red/Black or Rakdos options for 2 mana when there are tons of already played alternatives that don't flat out stop the GY from being a factor in the game and erasing all cards sent to it. Graf Diggers Cage, Bojuka Bog, Ground Seal etc all do a fine job of providing GY hate.

Waiting for 7 mana to hit Meteor Golem or a heavily telegraphed Nevs Disk doesn't seem reasonable in my experience, especially as red has to discard most of the time in order to dig for it.

I'm ambivalent on this. It really does just invalidate gy strategies that can't remove it, really easily for little Mana. At the same time Leyline of the Void exists, and extreme gy hate is needed to answer stuff like Meren et Al. Nearly every deck uses the yard, so it's usually useful, and there are gy based decks that are downright oppressive without these hard answers. The existence of these just demolishes more fair gy decks, and their prevelance pushes them out of the format.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

To summarize most of the posts in this thread:

I'd ban all of this stuff because it's busted and ruins games. Also, I'd unban a bunch of other stuff that's busted and ruins games.

Anyway, I'd unban Prophet of Kruphix. Yeah, yeah, I know.
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
To summarize most of the posts in this thread:

I'd ban all of this stuff because it's busted and ruins games. Also, I'd unban a bunch of other stuff that's busted and ruins games.

Anyway, I'd unban Prophet of Kruphix. Yeah, yeah, I know.
Same! In my opinion Prophet of Kruphix, Primeval Titan|M12 and Sylvan Primordial|GTC don't deserve to be banned anymore. Am I a minority in that opinion? Yup. Do I care? Nope😅

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Unban:
Gifts Ungiven
Primeval Titan
Recurring Nightmare
Sylvan Primordial
Library of Alexandria
Iona, Shield of Emeria

Ban:
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Flash
Food Chain

Basically just slow down the format within the first few turns.

Sure Prime Time and Sylvan Primordial are decent, but there are deadly stuff going on within the 6 or more mana bracket.

I actually own a Library of Alexandria but it's in terrible condition. However it wouldn't be an include for a lot of my decks. It turns out one card per turn at the cost of one mana in multiplayer commander is decent, but not broken by any means when you have to make sure not to empty your hand.

Iona, Shield of Emeria doesn't stick around in multiplayer anyway, so mono players could be patient for a turn or two and normally just play out artifacts in the mean time and be fine. Basically in over 12,000 games (I play Magic Online ever day for the last 7 years, it adds up) I've played she has never been a problem in a game.

Flash and Food Chain to slow down the fastest combo decks in the format. The void can be filled with other fast combos, but these are the more robust ones to try and disrupt.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt because nothing creates more unfair starts than these in opening hands. At least Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal all have restrictions that really do play parts in making them work or not in games.

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