SCD: Golos, Tired-Ass Pilgrim

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
She is finally a general for "God Tribal" so it seems that is what people wanted to build. I don't think it is really all that confusing since the only 5 color God otherwise is a false one.

As for the rest of the bombs, perhaps you are right that people just didn't want to go straight bombs with her. Who knows. I have faced a couple and they don't seem nearly as bad as Golos but obviously our experiences regarding both differs.
I don't find the god tribal part confusing (even if it's dumb), what I find confusing is the lack of all obvious bombs - or of any creature with greater than 30% market share. Kozilek and Ulamog aren't even on the top creatures list. I get what the god tribal people are doing, even if I think it's dumb - what confuses me is what the other 75% of people are doing.
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Not gonna lie, Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge doesn't look fun to play, and it's probably more specific than Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, but I do still feel like Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is stronger, purely because he's not modal; you have a non-conditional land search AND casting stuff from the top of your library for free. The former even plays into the latter, which is just gross.
It's not free, though - it costs 7 mana. Esika costs nothing. Modal is neat and all, but a difference of 7 mana is kind of huge, even everything else aside.

In fairness I think all the Golos lists I've played against have fetched some boring fixing land and focused on the bomb-dumping. I don't think any have been able to really exploit the land tutoring (except my sorrow's path version I suppose). But I've always found his weakness to be that he sucks at control. He dumps a bunch of stuff on the board usually, but then he can't protect it because counterspells and other interaction are bad hits (plus he usually wants to tap out for his ability), so he rolls over to combo and can get reset by wipes. Whereas Esika can run whatever she wants and pays no mana to dump freaking 10-drops in play every turn.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
The problem with golos is the activated ability plus guaranteed field of the dead. Not just one or the other. Or guaranteed world tree, sanctum, cradle, coffers. People had a hard time beating my mono red nykthos golos, that decks win rate was 50%. And it put the t in trash.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like playing against him and I get why Golos is miserable to play against. While I agree that it's the combo of the two abilities, I'd say the activated is by far the bigger piece of the problem, He was arguing that it was broken without activating the ability solely as a land tutor in the CZ, and I don't think it's reasonable to say a 5 mana Sylvan Scrying that ramps is broken. If that deck is overpowering your meta, imo that's a misattribution of the problem.

Plus I mean, 30 zombies in one turn? Unless something real weird is going on, that sounds like you've got at least 12 lands in play. I'm not going to lose too much sleep over something being powerful when you've got 12 lands out.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Fundamentally having something always available even if it's not great let's you do some.pretty dumb crap. But I don't disagree that the ability is the real issue with golos.

Without it he'd still be a top tier blink commander tho

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Fundamentally having something always available even if it's not great let's you do some.pretty dumb crap. But I don't disagree that the ability is the real issue with golos.

Without it he'd still be a top tier blink commander tho
I'd say a lot weaker than Brago, King Eternal...except that he gives access to 5c. Obviously CI is a vital part of the format but it's also makes it unbalanced since it makes multicolor legends much more powerful than otherwise equivalent monocolor (or fewer-color) legends.

I liked it back when playing 5c meant you had to play some janky "just for the colors" garbage like Cromat :rofl: Now the 5c commanders have the best abilities AND access to all colors.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

With you on all points except brago. I think people overrate him a lot. Having your blink commander be cradle is not to be trifled with. Esp the first blink gets deserted temple lol.

There's not much reason not to be in 4-5c these days. And it's definitely an issue.

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Post by ZenN » 2 years ago

I don't disagree with that last sentiment. 4-5 colours isn't special anymore, it's just the better thing to do. Unless you're directly building around a specific strong or cool commander ability on a commander that has fewer colours, it's just going to be better to play one of the do-it-all 4-5 colour options. Well, unless you're especially restricted on your mana base, I guess.
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Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
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onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

I've seen relatively little Esika online, Golos is still a lot more common. I think Dirk is on to something with his idea that she is just too straightforward and boring when building her at her most broken. Its most likely just better to drop Prismatic Bridge turn 5 and reveal one of your 4-5 bombs on your upkeep then to drop Golos and tutor a land then activate him next turn, but in order to make that broken you also have to make it predictable, which ends up being boring. There's a lot of fun spinning the Golos wheel for his pilots, even if it plays out like the same old crap for everyone else, whereas with a tuned Esika list you pretty much know what you're gonna get. If you want to build Esika to be more fun to run and get some actual randomness in it, you're going to have to build it "fair" with a lot of potential hits for her ability, significantly diluting the likelihood of her hitting something disgusting. In that case, you'll either fill your deck with big things you want her to cheat out, in which case you won't be able to efficiently use the mana your saving each turn compared to Golos, or your building her with mid range stuff around 4-6 mana that you can use that spare mana to cast, so her ability becomes a value engine rather than a bomb dropper. At that point, Golos' ability starts looking comparatively a lot better, because you're going to hit more "free" spells from it per turn, and that's just with one activation. Once you start getting enough mana to activate him twice, which again his tutor ability AND his activated ability help with by grabbing more mana sources, you start generating a lot more value with Golos than with Prismatic Bridge. Combine all of these factors together, and Golos and Esika are probably at about the same power level but what Golos does feels more exciting and rewarding to the pilot while creating more repetitive gameplay patterns from the perspective of everyone else at the table (as the pilot just keeps pouring mana into Golos, rather than needing to think about how to use their mana while getting 1 freebie a turn from Esika).

There are other factors as well though. Esika doesn't hit extra turn spells, one of the most annoying Golos uses. Esika is less accidentally broken. Esika is a bit harder to get online initially (from my limited experience against her, its harder to hit all 5 colors without Golos' land tutor). While she has fewer restrictions on what cards can be effectively included in her decks compared to Golos, she also can't just replace commanders in the same way Golos can (because what she does is a lot more specific, and decks whose plan doesn't hinge on creatures or pws aren't going to get use out of her, unlike with Golos).

Basically, there's a lot of factors weighing down her popularity compared to Golos, despite being potentially more powerful in her most cut throat builds.

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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

The king is dead, long live the king!

onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

It's funny, Kenrith was always the better commander, but he was less of a blight on the format. His activated abilities are good, and can be game winning with setup, but aren't so dominant as to make you want to just pump Mana into them every turn. He also doesn't ramp, so he doesn't help recast himself, and gives no immediate benefit without having extra Mana available. Him being cast on curve and immediately eating removal actually sucks, as opposed to just being a speed bump for Golos. He's still busted, but a level and kind of busted that this format can handle better.

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

onering wrote:
2 years ago
It's funny, Kenrith was always the better commander, but he was less of a blight on the format. His activated abilities are good, and can be game winning with setup, but aren't so dominant as to make you want to just pump Mana into them every turn. He also doesn't ramp, so he doesn't help recast himself, and gives no immediate benefit without having extra Mana available. Him being cast on curve and immediately eating removal actually sucks, as opposed to just being a speed bump for Golos. He's still busted, but a level and kind of busted that this format can handle better.
I've got him as the commander for my 5c Morph deck, and I like to comment that prior to the beginning of the game, he unmorphs from an elk (I have him in a clear sleeve with Kenrith's Transformation on the other side). He's enormously strong, but not insurmountable. Actually, one of the greatest advantages he has in my experience is the ability to play politics by giving other players things from his abilities. Careful, measured use of that has kept me from becoming arch-enemy at times when I probably should have been targeted more aggressively, which in turn allowed me to get far enough ahead that the abilites combined with my morphs could actually win me the game. That's about as far from the usual build of Golos as you can be, honestly.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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