(MCD) Birthing Pod combos

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago



So, since Felidar Guardian came out, I really liked the concept of the chain of 3 CMC persist creature → Kiki combo in Pod. It costs 9 mana total. Fundamentally I don't think this specific combo is probably good enough in CEDH but it just got me thinking about having a pod thread - so don't take this as a "Why don't they play this in CEDH?" My guess is because finks is a crappy card and CEDH wants to minimize bricks. :)

I remember when I first read the Blood Pod primer thinking it could use some detailed analysis of pod chains so I started thinking about it and wondering why people didn't run 3 cmc persist creatures (even just finks), for the 9 mana total pod chain that hits Kiki-Resto.

I looked at the list and I could not see a chain, even with karmic guide, that reliably gets Kiki combo off one turn of podding without having both commanders out (woof, 7 mana + 3 for pod + 2 activations for 12 mana).

Does anyone who knows more than me know enough to put some detailed analysis of pod chains together? I'm happy to help out with the ones I can think of. Doesn't seem to be a comprehensive birthing pod guide out there that I can find, especially not in 5c.

The key I think is to restrict it to the less fanciful ones - fewer steps, <12 mana, fewer dead cards, single turn (so as to be less situational)

I've seen some really wild combos in the
Vannifar thread, but Pod is much less flexible than vannifar (but also gets to play in more decks).

The basic one I started thinking about this with:

Combo 1
Precondition: 3 CMC creature on battlefield or in hand/command zone, birthing pod in hand or battlefield
9 total mana: Pod 3 CMC creature → Felidar Guardian blinking pod → Karmic guide returning Guardian, blinking pod , pod Guardian → Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Kiki-Jiki activates copying Karmic Guide returning Felidar Guardian. Blink Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Combo!


Combo 2
Precondition: Kitchen finks and Birthing Pod in hand or battlefield

9 total mana: Kitchen Finks → pod into Felidar guardian, blink pod → Pod persisted Kitchen Finks into clone or Restoration Angel, blink guardian, blink pod → Pod 4CMC into Kiki jiki, Mirror Breaker
-dead cards: kiki, guardian, finks, resto (if played - metamorph or phantasmal image would not be dead cards since they're good)

Combo 3


Just trying to get moving a little on our initial charter:

Ramp Creatures

Because this is the competitive forum I'm going to stick to 1-cmc duders for now. But might add bloom tender or the like

Multiple Bodies

These creatures should provide multiple bodies somehow - unearth for Fatestitcher, for example.

Combo Creatures

These creatures generate an infinite combo with another creature on the list but do not otherwise interact with Birthing Pod

Untappers

Reuse (blink, Recursion)

Last edited by pokken 4 years ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Kemev
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Post by Kemev » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Does anyone who knows more than me know enough to put some detailed analysis of pod chains together? I'm happy to help out with the ones I can think of. Doesn't seem to be a comprehensive birthing pod guide out there that I can find, especially not in 5c.
I think putting together all the Birthing Pod chains in one place would be great! It might have to be a team effort though, since there are so many different things you can do with it. Also, I'm don't not sure if it makes sense to focus only on combos that you can execute in one turn... for example, you might be fine with Magus of the Moon sitting on the table for a turn or two before you pod it away into an endgame.

The easiest way to write it all out might be to have two separate sections, one for a list of relevant creatures by CMC, then do a longer section formatted something like (starting board position): chain -> (endgame)

(Birds of Paradise, Birthing Pod, and four other mana on board):
Cast Deceiver Exarch, untap land, sac Birds to Pod -> Phantasmal Image, copy Exarch, untap Pod, sac Image to pod -> Restoration Angel, target Exarch, untap Pod, sac Angel to pod -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
(Kiki-Jiki copies Exarch, untapping Kiki-Jiki, repeating until you have an arbitrary number of hasy Exarchs to attack with.)

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I remember when I first read the Blood Pod primer thinking it could use some detailed analysis of pod chains so I started thinking about it and wondering why people didn't run 3 cmc persist creatures (even just finks), for the 9 mana total pod chain that hits Kiki-Resto.

I looked at the list and I could not see a chain, even with karmic guide, that reliably gets Kiki combo off one turn of podding without having both commanders out (woof, 7 mana + 3 for pod + 2 activations for 12 mana).

This is kinda off-topic, but I'm hugely suspicious of Blood Pod as a deck; I think it's better in theory than in practice. When it came out, I goldfished it a bit, didn't really see the value, got a couple of my more skillful friends to try it out, and they had trouble with it too. I feel like it's a Kingmaker deck... depending on which early stax pieces you lay out, you might prevent 1-2 opponents from winning, but the last guy always kicks your teeth in.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Kemev wrote:
4 years ago

I think putting together all the Birthing Pod chains in one place would be great! It might have to be a team effort though, since there are so many different things you can do with it. Also, I'm don't not sure if it makes sense to focus only on combos that you can execute in one turn... for example, you might be fine with Magus of the Moon sitting on the table for a turn or two before you pod it away into an endgame.

The easiest way to write it all out might be to have two separate sections, one for a list of relevant creatures by CMC, then do a longer section formatted something like (starting board position): chain -> (endgame)

(Birds of Paradise, Birthing Pod, and four other mana on board):
Cast Deceiver Exarch, untap land, sac Birds to Pod -> Phantasmal Image, copy Exarch, untap Pod, sac Image to pod -> Restoration Angel, target Exarch, untap Pod, sac Angel to pod -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
(Kiki-Jiki copies Exarch, untapping Kiki-Jiki, repeating until you have an arbitrary number of hasy Exarchs to attack with.)

This is kinda off-topic, but I'm hugely suspicious of Blood Pod as a deck; I think it's better in theory than in practice. When it came out, I goldfished it a bit, didn't really see the value, got a couple of my more skillful friends to try it out, and they had trouble with it too. I feel like it's a Kingmaker deck... depending on which early stax pieces you lay out, you might prevent 1-2 opponents from winning, but the last guy always kicks your teeth in.
Re: Blood pod - I would not disagree. One of the reasons I'd like to look at blue pod options too.

I do think there is probably a value creature and hate creature based CEDH deck out there that would like to use Pod as an engine - just not sure what it is :)

I like your idea of gathering them all and classifying them. Could just emphasize the necessary preconditions and then sort by that as needed.

I also like your example as it's pretty feasible - I'd probably make any pieces that are interchangeable into generic things though (e.g. bird is any 1-drop creature).

Maybe the best starting point (as you said) is to just start with a list of all the relevant critters - classifications I can see so far are:

1) Ramp creatures you are likely to play
2) Creatures that generate multiple poddable bodies
3) Creatures that combo with creatures on the list (e.g. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker) - interestingly I would not be surprised if there were *other* pod chains (such as those that generate the 1-2-3 coco combo creatures--or even a karmic guide->protean hulk chain, but I haven't thought hard on that yet)
4) Creatures that untap pod
5) Creatures that recur creatures that untap pod and are in a chain with them (E.g. felidar guardian -> karmic guide)
6) Creatures that copy or blink creatures in 4/5 and are in poddable CMC

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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

Bloodpod as a deck... plays a ton of answers for specific threats. You have to tailor the deck to your specific meta, so out of the normal cEDH decks that you might find online, this one takes the most tweaking to do well.

In my meta, bloodmoon is INCREDIBLY good becuase there is a ton of tainted pact/demonic consultation for lab man... so, bloodmoon just shuts them off.

In other metas it might be terrible.

Edit:

Blood pod's Pod chain:

Play pod. (3 mana) Pod off tymna (4 mana) get felidar guardian. blink Pod. Pod off guardian (5 mana) get karmic guide, reanimate guardian and blink pod. Pod off Guardian again (6 mana) get kiki jiki. Copy Karmic Guide. Reanimate Guardian. Blink Kiki Jiki. Go off. Can add "cast tymna" at the front of this, and get a 9 mana pod chain.

:)
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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

also, i think they don't play 3 mana persist creatures, because they have a 3 mana creature and a 4 mana creature in the command zone to pod. It's not as compact, but it's not meant to be a super fast combo deck, it is a stax deck that means to run your opponents out of resources, or prevent them from interacting on specific axis. It's better to put cards that are going to attack the meta in those 3 mana spots, like Eidolon od rhetoric/Rule of law, or Aven mindscensor, etc.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Your pod chain with karmic guide is awesome, that's the one I was missing. :) I missed it in the second paragraph after the "both tana and tymna" chain which I didn't dig.

I obviously agree with the assessment of why 3 mana persist creatures aren't played and understanding the felidar/karmic guide one makes perfect sense why you wouldn't need it anyway since it starts with a 3 mana dude without persist.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

I've played a lot of different shells around Birthing Pod in commander, although not under directly a cEDH setting.

But some general concepts I'd like to put across..

Commander converted mana cost can be used to your advantage. Because you can Birthing Pod your commander, choosing the right commander is important to potentially start off your sequences.
I was specifically using Tasigur, the Golden Fang converted mana cost to get a quick high cmc number to Pod into something like Protean Hulk or Rune-Scarred Demon.

Chaining up. I have a Prime Speaker Vannifar primer, and doing multiple untaps is a way to get to more powerful creatures. I have a whole section on how to use Birthing Pod within Simic colors. I am going to move my primer to MTGNexus in the close future but in the mean time if you want to check out my section on it click here.

One really important aspect is being able to get multiple creatures into play, and Fatestitcher is perfect, because you can unearth it AND use it to untap the Birthing Pod.

Now my big foray into Birthing Pod was a Bant Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck, where basically my plan was to get as many copies of Birthing Pod into play and get multiple activation's of each one each turn. So it was designed to impress rather than win straight off that bat.
I could get like 3 version of Pod going with multiple untaps of each one.
I was using cards like Clever Impersonator and Phyrexian Metamorph to Pod into to make additional copies.
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician being another fine example of using CMC to always have access to 4 cmc creatures, plus Derevi ability to spend 1wug meaning you can mitigate the commander tax each time you sacrifice it to Pod.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Is everyone ready for trombone mage so we can finally tutor for pod on a dude? :P

I had honestly forgotten about my old Derevi, Emyrial Tactician pod deck. I just used it to do value stuff back then, wasn't super into the hardcore tuning. I'm sure there are about a hundred pod chains with Derevi into Reveillark combo type stuff.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

So I thought of a partial pod chain that might be interesting:

felidar guardian pod ->
Karmic Guide, return Guardian blinking Pod, Karmic Guide pod ->
Wispweaver angel blink guardian, blink pod, pod Guardian ->
body Double copying guide, returning guardian, blink pod -> ????

Feel like you could go a lot of places from there, but figured I'd drop it here as something to remember to think about later. Wispweaver allowing you to turn KG into another pod activation opens a lot of potential doors.

Likely worse than the other options, but if you'd rather not play Red it might be a way to get there.

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Post by Myllior » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'm sure there are about a hundred pod chains with Derevi into Reveillark combo type stuff.
Derevi definitely seems a super easy Pod-chain commander. One I was considering running when I first picked up a Birthing Pod was,

1. Pod Derevi, Empyrial Tactician into Felidar Guardian. Felidar untaps Pod.
2. Pod Felidar Guardian into Karmic Guide. Return Felidar and untap Pod again.
3. Pod Karmic Guide into Deadeye Navigator. Soulbond with Felidar and blink it to untap Pod again.
4. Pod Felidar Guardian into Peregrine Drake. Soulbond Deadeye with Drake and generate infinite mana.

From there, you can cast and pod away Derevi to your heart's content. I never bothered continuing the chain to a win, since I decided to not run it, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't win from infinite mana, blinks and Pod activations. (It might require changing up the steps above so that Guide doesn't end up in your graveyard, but I wouldn't know without looking).

UPDATED EDIT
I updated step 5 onwards as I realised there was a line that allows me to ensure I always have the win without any risk of overdrawing with Prime Speaker Zegana.
5. Recast Derevi, Empyrial Tactican and pod into a four-drop. Recast Derevi again to untap Pod.
6. Pod the four-drop into Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Blink Deadeye to soulbond with Azami then activate and blink Azami until you've drawn Craterhoof Behemoth and Rite of Replication.
7. Play Craterhoof Behemoth and copy it with a kicked Rite of Replication. Blink Deadeye to soulbond with the nontoken Craterhoof and blink until you have five infinitely large Behemoths and one relatively ordinary-sized Behemoth, all with trample and haste.
Last edited by Myllior 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

Myllior wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'm sure there are about a hundred pod chains with Derevi into Reveillark combo type stuff.
Derevi definitely seems a super easy Pod-chain commander. One I was considering running when I first picked up a Birthing Pod was,

1. Pod Derevi, Empyrial Tactician into Felidar Guardian. Felidar untaps Pod.
2. Pod Felidar Guardian into Karmic Guide. Return Felidar and untap Pod again.
3. Pod Karmic Guide into Deadeye Navigator. Soulbond with Felidar and blink it to untap Pod again.
4. Pod Felidar Guardian into Peregrine Drake. Soulbond Deadeye with Drake and generate infinite mana.

From there, you can cast and pod away Derevi to your heart's content. I never bothered continuing the chain to a win, since I decided to not run it, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't win from infinite mana, blinks and Pod activations. (It might require changing up the steps above so that Guide doesn't end up in your graveyard, but I wouldn't know without looking).

EDIT: Exactly how you win depends on what cards you have in your deck, but with mine the winning line could be, continuing from the above,
5. Pod Peregrine Drake into Prime Speaker Zegana. Soulbond Deadeye with Zegana and draw most of deck.
6.a) If Craterhoof Behemoth is in hand, go to 7.
6.b) If Craterhoof Behemoth is not in hand (i.e. it's in the last chunk of your library that can't be drawn with Zegana or you'll lose), play any seven-drop (e.g. Avenger of Zendikar), blink Deadeye to soulbond with Felidar and blink Felidar to untap Pod, then pod the seven-drop into Craterhoof and go to 7.
6.c) If neither Craterhoof Behemoth nor any seven-drops are in hand, blink Deadeye to soulbond with Felidar and blink Felidar to untap Pod, pod Zegana into a seven-drop, blink Felidar to untap Pod again and pod the seven-drop into Craterhoof and go to 7.
7. Play Craterhoof Behemoth and copy it with a kicked Rite of Replication. Blink Deadeye to soulbond with the nontoken Craterhoof and blink until you have five infinitely large Behemoths and one relatively ordinary-sized Behemoth, all with trample and haste.
making me wanna put together derevi, just to play more pod. Birthing pod decks are some of my favorite decks. I try and draft pod if i can in cube, and just build chains all the way up if i can.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

If you have infinite mana and derevi in the CZ, the world is your oyster. Activate derevi, untap pod, pod derevi into venser, blink everyone's stuff forever and win with combat damage - then no need for hoofdad or any of that stuff.

But I agree. I'm pretty sure I am going to chuck together an actual competitive deck again and Derevi Pod seems pretty reasonable given how much I love pod and hate creatures.

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Post by Myllior » 4 years ago

Styrofoam wrote:
4 years ago
making me wanna put together derevi, just to play more pod. Birthing pod decks are some of my favorite decks. I try and draft pod if i can in cube, and just build chains all the way up if i can.
It's pretty fun putting these chains together; forces you to be creative and think ahead to get around the little complications that can arise when trying to push a chain from almost-guaranteed to deterministic. A good example being the chain I gave; I've updated it to use Azami instead of Zegana so there's no chance of overdraw being an issue.

Then there's also all the extra scenarios that arise when you account for your opponents; what do you do when certain pieces have been discarded, destroyed or exiled? Then you get to try and put more chains together to resolve these scenarios, which can be really interesting.

PS: In many ways, these Pod chains remind me of playing Gifts Storm in Modern. Most of the time you just follow the regular deterministic plan, but having to navigate your way through hate or tax effects can make it really interesting.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
If you have infinite mana and derevi in the CZ, the world is your oyster. Activate derevi, untap pod, pod derevi into venser, blink everyone's stuff forever and win with combat damage - then no need for hoofdad or any of that stuff.
Yep that's true and certainly a cleaner way to do it than Hoof. (If anyone is obstinate and refuses to scoop to the Venser lock, then you can pull out the Hoof plan).
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

It definitely reminds me of gifts a bit.

This also has me itching to rebuild derevi as my competitive deck, heh :)

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

Derevei is probably the best way to build a Birthing Pod combo chain because she's always available in the command zone for just 1uwg and is in great colors to find tutor for it.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

I hate to bring a dead topic back to life.....but how do you feel with Kenrith, the Returned King as the commander for the pod lines? You can dump infinite mana into Kenrith, you can run Oracle Consoltation, you can run the Kikki-Jikki lines....What do you guys think?

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Kenrith is exceptional as a pod commander for sure. He has access to all the persist creatures, and can as a mana sink bring cards back to re-cycle them, etc. He can also reset persist creatures who you've previously sac'd which is great.

I've definitely considered him as a casual pod commander just for the purposes of focusing on the pod-persist lines.

He also gives Devoted Druid / Bloom Tender haste which is pretty cool, as well as Prime Speaker Vannifar if you're running that as a redundant pod effect.

So you get some additional goofy lines if you want with Kenrith like pod a bloom tender into Heliod's Pilgrim for Freed from the Real then reanimate the bloom tender and give it haste, tap it to cast freed on itself.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Kenrith is exceptional as a pod commander for sure. He has access to all the persist creatures, and can as a mana sink bring cards back to re-cycle them, etc. He can also reset persist creatures who you've previously sac'd which is great.

I've definitely considered him as a casual pod commander just for the purposes of focusing on the pod-persist lines.

He also gives Devoted Druid / Bloom Tender haste which is pretty cool, as well as Prime Speaker Vannifar if you're running that as a redundant pod effect.

So you get some additional goofy lines if you want with Kenrith like pod a bloom tender into Heliod's Pilgrim for Freed from the Real then reanimate the bloom tender and give it haste, tap it to cast freed on itself.
So I put a list together and I am going to try and give it a go. If you have any suggestions feel free to let me know!

https://archidekt.com/decks/578124#KenPod

Its built very similar to my TnT build, one main way of winning with multiple side ways including infinite mana/infinite combat/kikki-jikki lines. Should be interesting as I think every card is value, even outside of the main line. I think maybe more tutor's are needed but not 100% right now. Ignore the mana base, just a place holder as I go through and update what is needed and all.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
3 years ago
So I put a list together and I am going to try and give it a go. If you have any suggestions feel free to let me know!

https://archidekt.com/decks/578124#KenPod

Its built very similar to my TnT build, one main way of winning with multiple side ways including infinite mana/infinite combat/kikki-jikki lines. Should be interesting as I think every card is value, even outside of the main line. I think maybe more tutor's are needed but not 100% right now. Ignore the mana base, just a place holder as I go through and update what is needed and all.
So i think the most powerful pod line these days is probably derevi/najeela so right on for getting there. I think Courser of Kruphix probably doesn't belong, kind of a boat anchor at this level of power.

I do like the 2 cmc hatebears.

Not sure how i feel about corridor monitor+monoliths, seems maybe superfluous.

mystical tutor and regrowth both seem kinda weird. I guess MT is ok, but I would prefer enlightened tutor I think in this build.

dimir house guard seems not great

Zirda seems kinda hit or miss to me

Mortify feels worse than Unexpectedly Absent to me - or Abrupt Decay most of the time, though that's ffy.

Chromatic Lantern feels wildly unnecessary

Impact Tremors I don['t love either.

People often do not play Body Double in these decks but I think it's pretty nice to have when a pod chain gets broken up. Might be worth considering especially if your meta is creature heavy since you can jump on other people's.

Phantasmal Image is a pod card I have found people sleep on a bit too.

Overall looks like a good solid start.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago

So i think the most powerful pod line these days is probably derevi/najeela so right on for getting there. I think Courser of Kruphix probably doesn't belong, kind of a boat anchor at this level of power.

I do like the 2 cmc hatebears.

Not sure how i feel about corridor monitor+monoliths, seems maybe superfluous.

mystical tutor and regrowth both seem kinda weird. I guess MT is ok, but I would prefer enlightened tutor I think in this build.

dimir house guard seems not great

Zirda seems kinda hit or miss to me

Mortify feels worse than Unexpectedly Absent to me - or Abrupt Decay most of the time, though that's ffy.

Chromatic Lantern feels wildly unnecessary

Impact Tremors I don['t love either.

People often do not play Body Double in these decks but I think it's pretty nice to have when a pod chain gets broken up. Might be worth considering especially if your meta is creature heavy since you can jump on other people's.

Phantasmal Image is a pod card I have found people sleep on a bit too.

Overall looks like a good solid start.
Courser is really a sore thumb now that I think about it. My love of hate bears has started annoying people. I get them a lot in my starting hand and sometimes keep a hand for it. So many ETB effects and no early commanders. Sounds fun to me.

Corridor Monitor is needed for the Kikki-Jikki lines, Grim monolith is out.

Dimir House Guard transmutes for Pod. Just another way to find it.

Zirda is a reducer for Kenrith + goes infinite with Basalt monolith. Added in Gemstone Array to filter that mana for Kenrith.

Chromatic I just include since 5C, mana fixing.

Impact tremors is there to kill with Dockside + Temur or with Kikki-Jikki + CM/Felidar.

We don't have a lot creatures in my meta, mostly dorks or combo pieces.

TLDR: Removed Grim/Courser. Added Enlightened Tutor/Gemstone Array.

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