Post PE Metagame

FireStorm4056
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Post by FireStorm4056 » 4 years ago

Kemev wrote:
4 years ago
I think this suggests that Flash isn't the problem... Hulk is. Even if Flash was banned, there are still plenty of ways to successfully use Hulk combos in the format. If Hulk was banned, Flash would be largely irrelevant.
Hulk as a win condition is fine. Plenty of win conditions in the format end the game off of a single trigger or cast, and Hulk on its own is no different. Flash simply provides too much speed and too few ways to interact with it, and that's the core issue. For example, in addition to the many other issues already mentioned, no one gets priority while Hulk is on the battlefield (before it gets sacrificed by Flash). Meaning, there's no opportunity to interact with it via Path to Exile or otherwise. To my knowledge, all other Hulk lines provide some priority opening at some point while it's on the battlefield... it's just Flash that does not. Combine instant speed, easily achievable casting cost (both CMC and colors), and a very narrow list of viable answers and you get a disproportionately effective win condition.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Are you sure about this? Thrasios/Tymna seem like a pretty optimal combination if 3 of the best colors and a ton of card advantage and a combo outlet in the command zone.

Are you sure they don't just move to the next best combo (say focusing on making infinite mana with scepter and pumping it into Thrasios, then winning with a walking ballista or something?)

I guess maybe you pump one card combo generals like Teferi, Temporal Archmage up a bit?
T&T will still be very good, it just won't be head-and-shoulders the best at literally everything (with no drawbacks) anymore.
Last edited by FireStorm4056 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

Kemev
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Post by Kemev » 4 years ago

Taleran wrote:
4 years ago
Kemev wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago

The one tidbit from the Flash SCD is that
Hulk is in 73% of Flash decks, but Flash is only in 21% of hulk decks.

Which suggests that Flash is very rarely played outside of CEDH - although there were a few folks who chimed in (and Flash is only in around 200 decks that are not playing Hulk).
I think this suggests that Flash isn't the problem... Hulk is. Even if Flash was banned, there are still plenty of ways to successfully use Hulk combos in the format. If Hulk was banned, Flash would be largely irrelevant.
You probably shouldn't be thinking about that post cut away from the part of where the data comes from since the selection source is so small and weird for this discussion specifically because the website in question doesn't skew for deck power.
That's true, but that that's going to be a problem for any discussion about the banned list. It's tough to get real data for anything.
FireStorm4056 wrote:
4 years ago
very reasonable points
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, however, I'd point out that similar discussions were had before Protean Hulk was banned in the first place, and ultimately, it was banned because it was problematic at multiple tiers of play. I think it was a mistake to unban it, and I generally feel that multiple metagames (cEDH included) were well served when it was banned.

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Post by bubskee » 4 years ago

The next most powerful 'boogieman' in the format is not clear after flash/hulk.

It may be some form of enabler, as PE was. It might be Thrasios himself, or the perhaps the partner mechanic. Or perhaps Vamp Tutor and company are a little too good. Or fast mana.

Whatever it is, it is either subtle or largely undiscovered, and it may take the cEDH crowd a good long while to figure it out.

I'm not a fan of banning in general (there are a handful of cards I would love to see unbanned). I would not miss FlashHulk, and I would enjoy watching the cEDH crowd figure out what the next most broken thing is.

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Post by CPT_BabyMagic » 4 years ago

Hello,

First I'd like to say thank you for reaching out to the community. Personally I believe the bans impact has been over blown. I do not play flash hulk and I also did not play PE. I play Shimmer Zur and Chain Veil. That said I have played against a littany of different competitive decks since the banning. This past weekend I went to an SCG open and only saw one hulk deck win and it was in Karador with no flash (obviously).

I do not think PE should have been banned. I like there to be more viable strategies and having one cut off at the shins is disheartening. However, I do not think that flash should be banned, if anything PE should be unbanned. I don't want to see this turn into modern a few years back where a card is banned then people say "well this deck is good" so a card gets banned and this just goes on and infinitum. My recommendation would either be unban PE or no action. The reaction to this ban has been overblown. Mostly because people justifiably are upset when a deck they love becomes unplayable and they are forced to move on. That said the meta is not just flash hulk. I have had nothing but great, interactive games through the period since the ban and have just been prepared for hulk. It is certainly not the only thing people are playing.

Vaal Vanir
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Post by Vaal Vanir » 4 years ago

Thanks for taking the time and asking these questions!

I am seeing a lot less diversity in the 3 pods that I play with since Paradox Engine was banned. A lot of cool decks appeared and had some ingenuity behind their deck building because of Paradox Engine. And I think Feather was able to make it to the cEDH table only because of Paradox Engine. My opinion is that Paradox Engine was healthy for cEDH as a whole.

I see two more Flash/Hulk From these pods since the ban, and those two players used to be hard on Sisay and Arcum. One guy has stopped coming, he was new to EDH with a Feather deck. It was this Feather deck that I found interesting with a lot of interactive spells and outside the box win condition such as Fist of Fire and Soul’s Fire.

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Post by Pinacollata » 4 years ago

Hey there,

The state of local meta had about 3 Flash/Hulk decks, 1 Gitrog, 2 or 3 Food Chain decks, one Sisay deck, 2 or 3 Consultation decks, and 3 Paradox/Scepter Decks. We typically met at out LGS on Saturdays for a sanctioned Commander matches. I went this Saturday, mostly to watch others play.

Now there was the 3 Flash/Hulks, Gitrog, and 1 Food Chain deck and 2 Consultation decks. And Flash Hulk overwhelmed the night, with not a lot of ways to interact from the other decks. For now I'd say our local group has stagnated a bit. Flash Hulk is oppressive, the control side of PE was a barrier holding it back, and, without it, "Meat and Eggs. We Eat!" is something our LGS will be saying for a while.

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Post by TempusFugit » 4 years ago

Hello [mention]Sheldon[/mention],
First of all, allow me to say your efforts of reaching out to to players, regardless of whether they identify themselves as cEDH or EDH players following the feedback/backlash/discussion surrounding the latest ban and all that is very much appreciated. Thank you for that (even though I disagree about %65 percent of what you say about commander)

Various people said all needed to be said above but let me provide a summary.

Meta is not completely compromised of flash-hulk decks, but it is almost universally accepted that Flash-Hulk it is the fastest, strongest and least interactible deck. This was true even before the PE ban. PE ban merely made Flash-Hulk decks even more ubiquitous.

PE ban mostly hurt control decks that forced Flash-Hulk players to slow down, which made Flash-Hulk even stronger as the decks that could keep them in check lost such a wincon/utility/value engine, while also killing aferomentioned decks like Sissay and Arcnum, decreasing format diversity.

People are pushing for a Flash ban, because Hulk itself, when put into a reanimator shell, or with some other outlet is considered to be a) slower b) more interactible. Considering Flash is rarely played in non cEDH commander metas, it is considered a much "safer" ban, if a thing such as "safe" ban exists.

Tangentially related:
[mention]Sheldon[/mention], people, and by people I mean cEDH community and EDH players that prefer focused/less durdly approaches but not cEDH, in my opinion, are not mad at the PE ban itself.

They are mad at your attitude, or perhaps I should say the way you argue, which makes many, myself included, feel excluded. Even worse, it makes us feel our way of playing is something to be ashamed of. Pubstomping is something to be ashamed of, on that we agree, playing competitively however, isn't, and as the face of the RC you are responsible for not making feel ourselves ashamed, or having the "wrong kind" of fun.

They are mad because some accusations, such as massive Paradox Engine sellouts/Painter Servant buyouts are still unanswered, giving rise to the speculation and rumours of insider trading. This makes people question whether RC and CAG, or at least some portion of them are using their position for monetary gain. This I believe is a reason of concern even for the most casual EDH players. As Josh from CZ mentioned, whenever you ban/unban a card, particularly a card of significant value, the economic impact of it is in millions, perhaps in tens of millions range. At this point, a casual format EDH might be, as its curators you no longer have the luxury of banning/unbanning cards without transparency, and without answering such questions.

They are mad at the lack of transparency of RC and CAG. I think if it wasn't for the Command Zone video with RC/CAG members, backlash from the EDH players of all kinds would be much harsher. The lack of transparency is directly related to people's perception of ban/unban decisions being arbitrary, and since you are the face of the RC, people, me included, have a tendency of feeling having to show begrudging obedience to your seemingly arbitrary decisions.

They are mad because your explanations regarding bans and philosophy document is often very vague and subjective which puts competitively minded people at an odd position. You say that banlist does not cater to the competitive environment, and given your philosophy document, it is an internally consistent argument. However, cEDH players who play for prizes in their LGS, and GPs and Magic Fests, do have to adhere to your banlist. As such, it is not entirely unfounded to argue that you (and by extension RC and CAG) have some responsibility towards them.

They are mad because PE is a problem that could be solved by rule 0. If players are taking too much time to play with PE on board, individuals kitchen tables can put a rule, you have to win other 5 minutes or less, or lets not play with PE. Rule 0 allows people to fix the problem of PE without hurting the competitively minded people and its meta by banning it.

They are mad because sometimes your explanations are insufficient. PE does not translate into a direct win, even in cEDH, in tuned decks. I doubt it can create "wins out of nowhere" in suboptimal decks. It requires an already advanced boardstate, a serious commitment to the board in the forms of dorks and rocks, which are vulnerable to various kinds of interactions - kinds of interaction that are often played even in casual pods. This list can be enumerated further, and the fact that it can be very easily enumerated further makes people question whether you guys actually thought that deeply on the PE ban, which does connect into my argument regarding transparency.

Personally, I play Tasigur, one of the control decks that was hurt the most by the PE ban. Post PE ban, Tasigur decks have already diversified into 3 main variants. Those that are all-ining to the scepter-reversal combo, those that are leaning towards freed from the real/tender combos, those that are focusing on reanimation/neoform/eldritch evolution lines. Even those that play Tasigur are not, based on discord server I might say, mad because you banned PE, because believe it or not, except a particularly vocal and toxic part of the cEDH community, we can understand and relate to why PE might create problems in more casual setting, and although we disagree with them, we can live with it.

Overall, I believe the way you reached out to community is a step in the right direction, and again, I would like to thank you for that. Sorry if my tangentially related rant ran a bit too long, but I hope it was the kind of constructive criticism you were looking for.

On a final note, my greatest issue (judging from some of your tweets and facebook posts) is that you seem to perceive all cEDH community to be consisting of its most vocal and possibly toxic members when it is not. But given that you have been threatened by a particularly angry person (likely one of those kind of people) very recently, I can't say I blame you for that.

MorienneMontenegro from cEDH subreddit/Manfred from Tasigur cEDH discord signing out.

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Post by JinShootingStar » 4 years ago

Kemev wrote:
4 years ago
I think this suggests that Flash isn't the problem... Hulk is. Even if Flash was banned, there are still plenty of ways to successfully use Hulk combos in the format. If Hulk was banned, Flash would be largely irrelevant.
But these new Hulk lines will be weaker, more card dependent and telegraphed. If a player Entombs or discards a Hulk, you know exactly what is coming up. Flash just makes even fetching dangerous because someone can Flash + Hulk in response (I've lost once to this).
Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
Oof, I was thinking of this in a more 1v1 context. Multiplayer combofest is a much harder problem.
In theory, yes. In pratice makes the early game very complex because sometimes players can combo on the first turn because it's only a two mana/two card combo. Every single other combo in the format is way more intractable.

I'm against banning Hulk because without it some fringe decks like Saffi Eriksdotter can't even dream to exist in a more competitive meta.

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Post by Oghara » 4 years ago

First of all let me thank you sheldon for opening up the communication lines here.

Most things about the issues with flash have been described in great detail by my fellow edh players so I won't go into it again.

So I want to talk a bit about how the PE ban affected my own playgroup.
We had a storm jhoira deck that got hit pretty hard
Urza got completely gutted
Thrasios & Tymna went from PST into hard flash-hulk
Storm Kess went towards Consultation lines (with the player being unhappy about it since he preferred to play storm by a lot)
Gitrog laughed hard
Godo largely unaffected
Najeela
Momir Vig


So in my personal meta 2 decks are not being played anymore (1 player quit edh), 2 decks got rebuild around something else and 4 decks are unaffected with them mostly playing with flash-hulk

I personally thought of flash to be a much bigger issue compared to PE in terms of powerlevel and change of gameplay in a pod.

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Post by liquidpixel » 4 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to read these.

I believe the common theme in some of these replies and grievances is that with Flash/Hulk combo and aptly built decks you can easily pull of hard to interrupt piles due to a variety of color options available in the format, and I believe this is because of the Partner mechanic. In my opinion the root of the problem lies in the Commanders, Thrasios and Tymna, and not necessarily the Flash/Hulk combo itself. Flash and Protean Hulk are only two colors and can probably do some work on their own, but what really pushes the decks over the edge is the addition of Black for tutoring, reanimation and sacrifice effects and White for cards like Grand Abolisher (tutorable thanks to the Hulk trigger) and Silence. I don't think just banning Flash will solve some of the speed issues in the format, but it will crush a couple decks that can be used to average wins as early as turn 2. If Flash is banned then the next fastest decks could look something like artifact and/or Food Chain decks, which can still average around turn 3.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

I would say that should Flash be banned Storm variants are probably the next most represented archetype, usually including Dramatic Scepter combo lines. Zur and Kess seem to be the next most popular commanders from a cEDH standpoint, although this is very different for my personal playgroup.

Should Flash get banned, I think that the next strongest deck would be Food Chain variants because it only requires a few cards that are generally decent by themselves.

However, any other archetype or 2 card combo has been MUCH easier to manage, as an opponent, in comparison to Flash. So I personally would definitely support a Flash banning. Winning at instant speed with no additional mana requirements and can be done in response to spot 'yard removal is just too good.

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Post by Sheldon » 4 years ago

TempusFugit, you're right that one of the things that I've done in the past without realizing it is lumping in the toxic pub-stompers with all of cEDH. That won't happen in the future, and I'm going to do what I can to undo the negative impact of that previous association.

Since you've done a good job of articulating some of the issues, I'm curious as to what you might see transparency look like.

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Post by HoffOccultist » 4 years ago

[mention]Sheldon[/mention] I'm not [mention]TempusFugit[/mention], but I think that the RC and CAG could help with the transparency issue is by including a bit more detail in the explanations of the bans.

For instance, with Paradox Engine, the official language of the announcement briefly makes mention of the mana advantage it can help produce, but as Tempus mentioned in their post it can take a lot of set-up to get to the point of that payoff, so additional language that mentions something like "when combined with an outlet to draw cards or utilize that mana, it proved too difficult to interact with at most tables" if that's what the RC felt brought its demise about.

You also could include some of the key points of discussion around the cards. I've seen from a number of RC and CAG members that the Iona ban and Painter's Servant unban were unrelated, but for the everyday observer there's nothing in the ban announcement to indicate that at all.

Another point that could be made is that in the Iona ban you mention cheating it into play making the cost no longer prohibitive enough to keep Iona safe. Clearly you know that reanimator strategies have been around forever, so some more explanation about how it became clear it was rarely being cast full price could help.

I don't mean to harp on, but you've got an immensely talented group of people in the RC and CAG, and sharing some of their discussions and ideas might help explain a lot with how the bans came to be--nothing needs to be noted by name, but even a simple rundown of "We discussed Topic, points X, Y, and Z were made, but we ultimately agreed that..."

Again, thanks for taking the time to engage the community more actively. It must be a thankless job that gets a lot of flak, so stepping out to receive feedback is a hard, but hopefully ultimately rewarding, thing to do.
Survivor of EDH 32 Challenge.

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Post by braden » 4 years ago

[mention]Sheldon[/mention], I know you're busy at WotC but I thought I'd give a bit of an update on my experiences playing cEDH in paper in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area.

I play cEDH in two distinct different metas. One is located at Red Caps Corner in West Philadelphia and the other is at The Comic Book Store in Glassboro NJ.

Meta Analysis

Philadelphian meta does allow proxies but no one to my knowledge actually does proxy. (aside from having multiple decks built using the same cards in different formats) We play casually and just show up on random days and usually 4 people show up at a time. Almost everyone is in college or in their 20's.

Here are some of the decks in our meta:
* Thrasios and Tymna, Sacred Hulk
* Thrasios and Tymna, Sigil Hulk
* Thrasios and Tymna, Shuffle Hulk
* Thrasios and Tymna, Breakfast Hulk
* Thrasios and Tymna, Consultation Scepter Thrasios
* Bruse Tarl and Thrasios, Blue Pod
* Narumeha Control
* Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Control
* Rashmi, Eternities Crafter, Control
* The First Sliver, Food Chain Sliver
* Niv Mizzet Parun
* The Gitrog Monster
* Tana and Tymna, Blood Pod
* Najeela Tempo



The Comic Book Store meta doesn't allow proxies. The age of players varies from young college students to adults with families. This meta does play for prizes every Tuesday, but the range of decks in terms of power level vary wildly. There are definitely lower powered to medium powered decks sometimes in our pods and it prevents a lot of games from being interactive. Flash is absolutely the most popular deck in the meta. There are also far more players. Usually 12-16 on Tuesdays.

I will italicize the casual decks.

Here are some of the decks in our meta:
* Thrasios and Tymna, Sacred Hulk
* Thrasios and Tymna, Shuffle Hulk (There are multiple people on this deck)
* Thrasios and Tymna, Unoptimized Pile
* Najeela Tempo
* Kruphix Big Mana Stuff
* Tasigur the Golden Fang, Control
* Feather
* Kess, Consultation Kess
* Damia Control



In the time since the Paradox Engine banning I have definitely seen a lot more Flash Hulk decks. I've found myself playing protean hulk a lot more, but beyond just my deck decisions, before the ban the Comic Book Store included far fewer hulk decks.

Thankfully, the meta I play with the most often in Philadelphia is pretty casual (even though the power level is much higher) so we tend to play decks we enjoy instead of decks that will win a small margin of games more often.

Was the paradox engine banning bad for cEDH?

It largely depends on your definition of cEDH.

If you have 2 cEDH decks and 2 high powered decks consenting to play together, is that cEDH?

Yes:

I think cEDH is worse off. A lot of games where players are playing suboptimal decks just end extremely quickly. Flash asks too much of players in terms of interaction. The cEDH deck that tries to extend the game and play interactive magic is probably going to lose and most players are probably not going to have fun at the end of the game, and it definitely won't be what we are all looking for, a memorable experience. If players are comfortable playing slightly or very suboptimal decks then deck diversity isn't really a concern, but I believe the gameplay is a lot less fun.

No:

cEDH might be worse off. Theres definitely less decks available to play. The format is definitely faster, but at the same time, I think that most of the decks that still exist were completely unaffected or are even better. Sadly, this does include Flash Hulk, but many people can run answers for the deck. Games become more samey, which goes against the aforementioned goal of creating memorable experiences, but overall I'm not sure the problems I predicted happened like I expected them too. And most importantly, I am still having fun playing cEDH!

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