Arcades, the Strategist: Wall-Ball Combo

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

[mention]Moth[/mention]
The inclusion of Teyo, the Shieldmage is interesting. How has it worked out for you? My inclination is to think that it is a redundant piece of card draw to your suite of card draw and Arcades' trigger. Has the hexproof been relevant for you?

The only things I'd recommend are slowly improving your mana base and getting some heavier "hitters" in your Red Mist section. Wall of Shards is one I see that you're missing. Quicksilver Wall is also another really good heavy hitter that loves to create Wall-Ball turns with Intruder Alarm and other mana Walls!

I think that including Lightning Greaves is now important. Arcades' strategy is now a known quantity, and I suspect that he gets targeted quite a bit over the course of a game. I haven't personally played with Arcades in a while, though, so I'll definitely defer to [mention]pufflex[/mention] on that.

The new clone Wall is pretty awesome for this deck! I imagine that Eldraine will print some interesting Defenders for Arcades to take advantage of, but we'll see.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
4 years ago
Moth
The inclusion of Teyo, the Shieldmage is interesting. How has it worked out for you? My inclination is to think that it is a redundant piece of card draw to your suite of card draw and Arcades' trigger. Has the hexproof been relevant for you?
Well you do find that having such a massive amount of creatures that block really well out early is pretty good to keep your PWs alive, so giving the self hexproof and being able to retain it is great against the meta I'm currently in.
However I can't say much for his other ability, other than defense and occasional card draw, I'd prefer using a Venser, the Sojourner PW, because he works so much better towards our game-plan of Tappin' 'n' Flickin' and his ulti is to die for.

PWs in general though aren't so effective in EDH, so he's on the chopping block, similar to Gatecreeper Vine. If I ever get a Venser or something much more playable he's getting removed immediately.

- Moth :cool:

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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

One of the obvious pieces that I think your missing is Winds of Abandon its a white Cyc rift that exiles creatures instead of bounce them. Granted depending on who you are playing is important especially if they have a lot of basics.

I also found that I would run into some "Life" issues which is why included Wall Of Reverence which atleast will gain me 1->3 life perturn if arcades in on board. The feel good combo is to have Colossus of Akros on the board which generates at least 10 per turn, and if you have 10 mana to spare it will generate you about 20 per turn.

My version of the build is almost more counter spell heavy than Benjameanbear's as I find that it is easier to just counter a threat, also it gives you a leg up for politics, and gives Mnemonic Wall more value targets.

What are the issues that you are running into right now? Land flood etc?

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

I'm not running into too many issues per say, but I feel like there may be some pieces that could improve how competitively the deck plays, but I also find that most competitive pieces are incredibly expensive.
Good tip on Winds of Abandon though. Such beautiful art on an equally beautiful card.

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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

That is a fair comment, in a perfect world I would run all the dual lands and a Gaea's Cradle. Instead of them I run the check lands and Growing Rites of Itlimoc which is the poor mans cradle. I would cut a signet for Incubation Druid as it works with the alarm and it can be grown and tap for 3 mana instead of 1. For mana fixing Shaman of Forgotten Ways is also nice as it works with the alarm.

Your mana base is probally causing you some issues so another cheap inclusion would be Krosan Verge which will allow you to thin our your mana base. Another good creature for recursion is Sun Titan who will return the majority of your defenders and come other enchantments to the battlefield on attack and when he enters. Guardian Project is another good card that will allow you to generate additional value from creatures entering the field. I would also sugges running Quicksilver Wall as it can generate a lot of card draw over time and its a cheap pickup. Since your running Tetsuko I also like Tree of Redemption it will close out games pretty quickly if left unchecked.

I would swap out Steel Wall for Wall of tanglecord since it is the same CMC however the wall has 2 more defense and you can give it reach if required for 1 green.

What is the max per card you would want to spend? I think it might be easier to find alternatives this way. I had thought my version of the deck was budget friendly, however thats very relative and I would also like to help/see how we can squeeze extra performance out of this deck for less money.

Let me know what you think.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

I'll take some of those requests into mind, might be hard to squeeze some things in so I'd be looking for cards that are strictly better than others, such as Shaman being a great trade for a Signet.
I've got an Aluren, Consecrated Sphinx and various other £20 cards, but I'd say it's fair that my limit on budget would be around £30 for a single card, possibly stretching further for a Bloom Tender but that is my absolute limit.

Also I play Steel Wall over Wall of Tanglecord because it has one less CMC, which allows for easier 'Wall-Ball' turns when I've got various combo pieces already out.

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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

My bad I forgot the CMC of the Steel Wall was 1. The only reason why I don't like the artifact walls is that they don't work with curio. Everything being equal the faster that your mana base becomes streamlined the better the deck should perform.

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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

Looks like your wish has been answered. They are printing a bloom tender like creature in the new set it costs 1 CMC more, but it has the same effect. Faeburrow Elder, I might try to find this card a home as well.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

A new card, Dance of the Manse seems good for pulling back choice artifacts and enchantments from the GY when they're put there.

Also our main Arti/Ench permanents are less than 6 CMC so everything we reanimate isn't so susceptible to the board wipes of making them into 4/4s.

Thoughts?

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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

That card does seem decent, I mean you when X=4 you could pull out all of the most relevant cards from the Gy right to the BF. The only issue with making them 4/4's is that they are targetable as creatures. If you had the correct pieces in hand you could just return the combo to the board and go off right away.

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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

Cards I still want to try in the deck Faeburrow Elder Return to the Ranks. Also I think we might have a place for some of the new Castle cards.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 4 years ago

Any thoughts on Crashing Drawbridge?

Also, my deck tends to lean more towards Benjameenbear's and I noticed in your Alternate Build section you have an older version of Ben's decklist. He posted changes on the MTG Salvation site on May 15, 2019, but I just noticed that his "official" desklist at MTG Salv was edited to reflect those changes on 8/22/2019. Just a suggestion to edit that section of your primer.

Lastly, I'm running Reflector Mage and I'm curious what folks think about running Imprisoned in the Moon, Song of the Dryads, or Generous Gift instead?


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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

Crashing Drawbridge is a great card to get your activate the new defenders or dorks when they come in. I updated my list a few days ago adding the Bridge and cutting the tangle cord wall.

I like Winds of Abandon as it exiles and doesn't destroy. In my play group there is a lot of GY recursion and indestructible creatures on the boards. Granted Austere is great as it has 4 modes of which you can pick two of, which gives flexability around the card. As well we have a lot of blue floating around, I also see a lot of blue and I have found that Winds of Abdandon doesn't get mana drained as often as a higher CMC soreries do.

That being said, do what fits your play style / group the best. Both cards are really good, and I wish I could run both. As for Your last question I benjameen bear would be the best to ask on that one.

I will update the main page with his changes from MTG Salv.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 4 years ago

Thanks for the Winds vs Austere assessment. Makes sense.

What are you thoughts on adding Chulane, Teller of Tales to the 99? He seems like a massive card advantage Commander, but his high CMC may not jive with this deck as much. However, I do love that you can further ramp later on IF you manage to have lands in your hand. This deck is already pretty good at drawing cards, but this could send it over the edge. His second ability could be helpful as well though. Perhaps it would just be targeted quickly and not serve us what well? Or, maybe he's just a win-more card? I've only been playing Commander for the last 5 months or so and not that often, so my experience is limited.

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pufflex
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Post by pufflex » 4 years ago

He is definately going to be a great Bant commander but I don't think it would fit the arcades theme. Best case it could be a win more card, assuming it isn't wiped out right away or stolen. I think if you were going to run him it would be as the commander of a different deck. That and you would probally want to run more protection on the board so he doesn't get wiped out right away. Also I think you would probally want to run more cheap creatures that bounce a creature so you can keep the chain going.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 4 years ago

I definitely think he'll be a serious value commander. We do cast a lot of cheap creatures and flicker them, but ETB is not the same as casting so I can see the synergy not being quite there.

I'm seriously considering replacing either Ulvenwald Captive or Shaman of Forgotten Ways with Faeburrow Elder. Thoughts? I'm leaning more towards Ulvenwald, but Faeburrow is better than the Shaman in some ways. Slightly more mana dense, but you can use the mana for any spells and you may be able to get three mana out of it versus two with Shaman. Shaman is more flexible in your mana choices though same or better toughness but no vigilance.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
4 years ago
I'm seriously considering replacing either Ulvenwald Captive or Shaman of Forgotten Ways with Faeburrow Elder. Thoughts? I'm leaning more towards Ulvenwald, but Faeburrow is better than the Shaman in some ways. Slightly more mana dense, but you can use the mana for any spells and you may be able to get three mana out of it versus two with Shaman. Shaman is more flexible in your mana choices though same or better toughness but no vigilance.
As much as I agree that Faeburrow Elder is better at making consistent mana than Shaman of Forgotten Ways, as well as working better with Derevi, Empyrial Tactician and Intruder Alarm, I find myself using the Shaman's second ability often to close out a game after a giant, one-sided wipe; especially if I can get more than enough mana to reach it. Cards like Ulvenwald Captive push towards your overall defender amount (for buffing the effects of Axebane Guardian and Overgrown Battlement) and act as a cantrip with our General out.
I feel you have to make a choice here to fall more into Bant Combo or Defender Combo, and then remove the more specific card for that choice, be it the Defender or the Shaman.

Cow31337Killer
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

No Tower Defense? No Wave of Reckoning??What kind of Arcades deck is this???

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Morganelefay
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Post by Morganelefay » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
No Tower Defense? No Wave of Reckoning??What kind of Arcades deck is this???
It's a combo build that doesn't need those cards to win.

One wall I'm missing in here is Shifting Wall which I always found to be a hilarious free cantrip at the very least. But as it doesn't work with Curio...well, I'd always consider it worth testing. I'm also fond of Resolute Watchdog as a way to give you a bit of extra protection while still offering a cantrip.
EDH Decks:

Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis - Arise, Lord Hogaak.
Grumgully, the Generous - The wonderful world of Ferngully.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw Cards Tribal.
Pir, Imaginative Rascal & Toothy, Imaginary Friend - Imaginary Superfriends.
Selvala, Explorer Returned - Taxes, Denial and Fatties.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds - Dinos and Eldrazis, oh my.
Ayara, First of Locthwain - March of the Black Queen.
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh - Chandra Tribal.
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim - Curious Contraptions

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

I made a few improvements to the list for my personal use, see what you all think!
Decklist

The Wall-Master (1)

1x Arcades, The Strategist

Sorcery (2)

1x Dusk
1x Wargate
Approximate Total Cost:

- Moth :cool:

Edit: I also ordered it in a less personal, but more efficient fashion so people don't have to battle against my poor titling to see the full list.

Some cards act as pretty obvious stand-ins while I wait for more time and money to put into the deck, notably Collected Company for something like Worldly Tutor and Sudden Substitution for a Gilded Drake. But the deck seems to work fine without these substitutions and I've seen a pretty decent rate of combo-ing off, (unimpeded) around turn 6, which is very good for something that isn't massively competitive.
I suppose I'm just one copy of Thrasios, Triton Hero away from something that could destroy worlds, but I'm not willing to go that far.
Arcades is far safer, cheaper and most importantly, unassuming. ;)

- Moth :cool:
Last edited by Moth 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

I've also put in a copy of Muddle the Mixture which will assist me in forming my Isochron and Dramatic combo, as well as finding various other spicy things given the game-state, seeing as my curve is incredibly dense at around the 2CMC area.

- Moth :cool:

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 4 years ago

@Moth I was trying to digest your pile and I noticed there are only 97 cards in there. 98 if you include Muddle. Yet, I don't think Muddle will help you search for either the Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal since they're both 2 CMC and Muddle is 3 CMC. Or, do you use Muddle to search for something else like Axebane Guardian or the Shaman or Faeburrow?

@Pufflex You raved about Finale of Devastation in your Card Discussion and have it bolded as though it were in your deck, but it's not in your decklist. Did you decide against it in favor of Chord of Calling? If so, I'm curious why?
Last edited by ChocoDude 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 4 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
4 years ago
@Moth I was trying to digest your pile and I noticed there are only 97 cards in there. 98 if you include Muddle. Yet, I don't think Muddle will help you search for either the Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal since they're both 2vCMC and Muddle is 3 CMC. Or, do you use Muddle to search for something else like Axebane Guardian or the Shaman or Faeburrow?
@ChocoDude
I may have missed some cards on the list, and if I haven't then I have more space which I'm glad about. However, the transmute on Muddle the Mixture doesn't care about the transmute cost, it cares about the CMC of the spell, (the spell being Muddle) which is 2. I use Drift of Phantasms to find my 3 CMC cost cards.
Thank you for your concerns!

- Moth :cool:

Found the numbering issue and fixed it!

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 4 years ago

Oh thanks! Apparently I need to read the text more thoroughly. I've may have been playing CMC <> 3 transmute cards incorrectly. Doh!!

Also, yay for fixing your decklist. I think Reflector Mage was one of the missing three along with either Sudden Substitution, Shared Summons, or Collected Company.

I see you went with Faeburrow Elder over Shaman of Forgotten Ways and kept Ulvenwald Captive. I decided to try the opposite and removed Ulvenwald. That does put my Defender count at 21 of 43 creature cards. Your count looks like 22 of 41 creature cards. Pufflex is at 23 of 38. And Benjameenbear was at 24 of 48 (although I don't think Ben has played Arcades in quite a while now). So, I'm considering bumping my Defender ratio back up a bit. The question is what to swap?

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