Arcades, the Strategist: Wall-Ball Combo

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Those are great ideas Ben!! I commented awhile back about adding Chulane into the deck, but I hadn't tried it. I like Resolute Watchdog too and I have a Collector Ouphe, so I may add a few of those in. I used to run Smothering Tithe in here, but decided another paper deck of mine could use it more. We have pretty darn good ramp in this deck already.

Looks like you removed the majority of your blink and recursion package from your original 75% deck idea and added a lot of counters for this cEDH version. I don't play cEDH, so I don't have a grasp for what's more useful there. Seems like it's all speed. Also, looks like you don't really have much in the way of boardwipes. Is that because cEDH games don't tend to last long enough for folks to build up large board states?

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

The return!

My personal build hasn't changed too much since I last showed it to everyone, yet I have been considering cards such as:
Blue Sun's Zenith (For targeted player removal.)
Scroll Rack (For being completely busted.)
Academy Rector (To grab choice pieces when needed, pretty fringe though.)
Deadeye Navigator (For obvious reasons, high CMC though.)
Pemmin's Aura / Freed from the Real (Infinite combo shenanigans, Pemmin's costs one more U but also gives evasion.)
Sylvan Library (Even more card draw!)

Some of these cards are more EDH staples than they are pieces for any sort of combo, which leaves me hesitant. Finding some space for specific combo pieces at the sacrifice of something like Consecrated Sphinx (Of whom I really don't want to remove) could be beneficial for the deck, although painful for my sentimentality and wallet! :sweat:

- Moth :cool:

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Those are great ideas Ben!! I commented awhile back about adding Chulane into the deck, but I hadn't tried it. I like Resolute Watchdog too and I have a Collector Ouphe, so I may add a few of those in. I used to run Smothering Tithe in here, but decided another paper deck of mine could use it more. We have pretty darn good ramp in this deck already.

Looks like you removed the majority of your blink and recursion package from your original 75% deck idea and added a lot of counters for this cEDH version. I don't play cEDH, so I don't have a grasp for what's more useful there. Seems like it's all speed. Also, looks like you don't really have much in the way of boardwipes. Is that because cEDH games don't tend to last long enough for folks to build up large board states?
The interesting thing about cEDH is that resolved permanents and creatures (that have toughness greater than 3) tend to stick around for quite a while. If you do a quick glance over the many cEDH lists out there, they run a lighter than normal removal count and depend on tutors to get a problem permanent off the board. This means that, for Arcades especially, the chance to overwhelm the battlefield with heavy hitting Defender creatures is a legit way to close out games, so we would rather control the stack to keep a favorable gamestate for ourselves while hitting in for chunks of damage. Games in cEDH, contrary to popular opinion, actually extend for quite a while when everyone's playskill and decklists are of similar caliber. So, I think I would prefer to focus in on the Aggro strategy and develop my own board state instead of Wrathing. Cyc Rift usually does the job when needed anyways.

Generally speaking, I think there's enough card advantage built in to the list that blink effects aren't as needed in order to grind out a longer game. You could squeeze in a few if you wanted, but I think that it's generally unnecessary. I think adding in Chulane is good enough to add in an additional Intruder Alarm combo piece and Card Advantage engine that any more blink engines would be unnecessary.

@Moth
I like the addition of Library and Pemmin's Aura. Adding in more low CMC card advantage engines is always a great idea and the Aura is another Combo piece. And I don't think that you have to cut C. Sphinx; the meta is slowing down and adding in the Sphinx puts massive pressure on the rest of the table to keep up with your card advantage and C. Sphinx is also another payoff for all the mana Defenders in the deck. I've been eyeing C. Sphinx again for all my cEDH lists for this reason and I attribute this to the fact that Flash got axed. It always felt bad tapping out for a huge threat just to lose to someone's Flash Hulk during the turn cycle when you haven't untapped.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
This means that, for Arcades especially, the chance to overwhelm the battlefield with heavy hitting Defender creatures is a legit way to close out games, so we would rather control the stack to keep a favorable gamestate for ourselves while hitting in for chunks of damage. Games in cEDH, contrary to popular opinion, actually extend for quite a while when everyone's playskill and decklists are of similar caliber. So, I think I would prefer to focus in on the Aggro strategy and develop my own board state instead of Wrathing. Cyc Rift usually does the job when needed anyways.
Hmmm...interesting. I hadn't realized. No experience in that realm. Would Tower Defense and Winds of Abandon come in handy then? I've been considering Winds for a couple of decks for a while now since it's one-sided using the overload cost. As for Tower Defense, I was simply thinking it would be a great combat trick if you're going to Aggro smash-mouth route. If that's the case, maybe Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive could be employed again? Of course, her (?) toughness is 3 (not >3), so maybe not.

Also, @Moth I use Pemmin's Aura in my Tuvasa deck. It's been quite handy!! I can't see why I wouldn't try it out in Arcades as opposed to Freed from the Real. Would either of you run both?

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Tower Defense is not necessary, in my opinion, because you'd rather control the stack instead of going for a surprise alpha strike, generally speaking, in a cEDH game. Whether or not you go for the Aggro plan or a Combo loop depends on the texture of the game and, generally speaking, Combo loops are predominant in a cEDH game... which means controlling the stack is the priority at any given point. I could easily see cutting a few other cards to add in more Counterspells to the deck, as 9 can be a little low from a statistics standpoint.

Winds of Abandon isn't terrible in cEDH because of the low count of basics in any given deck, but overloading it is probably never going to happen (which is where its power lies). If Winds was an instant, then I would heartily recommend it. But it's not. So, pass.

I think dedicating one slot to a Freed/Pemmin effect is good enough. That particular infinite mana combo (Freed + Bloom Tender) is a secondary combo to the deck's strategy because there is generally very few ways to take advantage of infinite mana in the deck. Unless you have a bounce effect a la Sabertooth/Cloudstone Curio, the feel-bads of going infinite with nothing to take advantage of it is a very real thing. The deck is VERY focused on the Wall-Ball combo lines as its primary combo of choice because of how Arcades works in the Command Zone; he cares about ETB triggers and has no activated abilities (could you imagine if he could spawn Defenders as an activated ability? Amazing...). So, it's not as desirable as a combo line in this deck but still desirable TO have one to threaten winning the game given the right board state + cards in hand.

EDIT: After further thought, I'm thinking that S. Tithe might be redundant to this decklist. There's so much mana generation already in the deck that having more might be unnecessary. If that's so, than I think slotting in Pull from Tomorrow might be a good idea as an infinite mana outlet and a payoff spell for the ramp that's already present in the deck.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Thanks for explaining some of the cEDH meta to me Ben! I definitely have no clue, but it's interesting to hear the variation within EDH and why. Much appreciated. I've been making most of my decks to play fast. (I guess that's how I generally like to play). As such, my overall CMC tends to be between 2.10 - 2.80. I'm working on my eighth EDH deck now. Arcades was my first. Here's my current version: https://archidekt.com/decks/88701#Arcad ... Ball_Clone As you can see, I've paid a lot of attention to what you, Pufflex, and Moth have said over the last couple of years why still keeping it how I'd like. I may add in Tower Defense and Winds of Abandon still along with another counter. I used to have more counters in. I also plan to add in Thing in the Ice.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

If your deck works for you, keep it rolling. I think you have a great mix of lands and synergies that your deck should always do well given a decent board state and setup. I tend to play pretty competitively or against decks that have been highly optimized and so my decklists tend to follow the same guidelines as you from a CMC perspective.

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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

I'm usually not a guy for counter-spells in general, but I picked up the Timeless Wisdom precon for Fierce Guardianship. It seems super strong with our gameplan of getting Arcades out as fast and efficiently as possible, making tapping out on turn 3 relatively safe for us because of the free counter option.
I'll be swapping out something a little weak to the list along the lines of: Smothering Tithe, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Reflector Mage or Bane of Progress, leaning on pulling the Tithe mainly.
I feel that Fierce Guardianship is too good to not run, similar to Force of Will, Force of Negation and Pact of Negation but because it's new and in a precon I could afford paying for it and get far more value than just a single card!

Also disappointed that Ikoria had absolutely no defenders at all, even though it's hard to find playable defenders in the state the deck is in right now, I would have liked to at least see an attempt akin to Wall of Stolen Identity, a shame. Hopefully Zendikar, the new Commander sets and forward have more defenders to peruse.

[Edit] With the Flash ban, degenerate combos are at an all-time low and games are going on a little longer, maybe Arcades is in an environment now where he's finally viable to play with the big boys.
Such a thought is magic to my ears.
The little elder dragon that could.

- Moth :cool:

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

@Moth
Protecting Arcades is definitely a must for the gameplan, so Fierce Guardianship is an excellent inclusion against most removal effects.

I haven't played a true cEDH game with my regular playgroup for a long time now, but I imagine that your edit observation is true. I don't know if he'll be tier status but I think he's a solid fringe deck when played correctly and underestimated by the table.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

How often do you guys find you have to mulligan your opening hands due to not enough mana considering you only have 31/32 lands in there? I'm considering bumping back up to 33 or 34 as I've noticed I have to mulligan a fair bit even with 14 - 16 ramp cards in there depending upon the day.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
How often do you guys find you have to mulligan your opening hands due to not enough mana considering you only have 31/32 lands in there? I'm considering bumping back up to 33 or 34 as I've noticed I have to mulligan a fair bit even with 14 - 16 ramp cards in there depending upon the day.
I find I have to mulligan a lot to get something I'd want in solo playtesting, but this never usually happens in the actual games - there are so many individual variables flying everywhere with so many wheel spells that you constantly have to be on your toes and constantly have a shifting gameplan. I haven't cut my manabase any further than 32, or added to it (other than upgrades) for this reason, you just don't know what's gonna happen, so I stick with what works.

Helpfully, I have picked up a Sylvan Library which, if it sticks, ensures that you're gonna have a pretty damn good hand to play with because of the pesudo-Brainstorm effect every turn. You can dig deep and grab lands if you need them, or grab creatures if you're running low. The only thing better would probably be a Scroll Rack.
If you're in need of this extra reassurance in your mulligans every few games, I recommend you pick one of the two up.

Have we thought about running Sterling Grove? It seems like a no-brainer tutor (acting similar to Enlightened Tutor) given our reliance on enchantments, as well as acting as protection if we were to pick it up later in the game when we have an Intruder Alarm or Aura Shards out. It's also being printed as a new judge foil, so chances are you could pick one up for cheaper pretty soon.

- Moth :cool:

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I too have found that 32-33 lands works decently. I don't usually keep a hand unless it has 2 lands and a dork and I often draw into a 2nd dork or 3rd land to make the hand keepable. Cheap draw effects, like Sylvan Library are an excellent way to smooth out mana concerns and it's the #1 reason that cantrips a la Preordain and Ponder are played in cEDH decks.

Sterling Grove. Hmm. Definitely an interesting card to consider since Aluren and Intruder Alarm are primary win conditions for the deck. I'll have to ponder it and some goldfishing to wrap my head around its applications.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Sterling Grove. Hmm. Definitely an interesting card to consider since Aluren and Intruder Alarm are primary win conditions for the deck. I'll have to ponder it and some goldfishing to wrap my head around its applications.
I'm gonna try and pick up one of the new foily Sterling Groves with the gorgeous Seb McKinnon art and run the gauntlet with some playtesting. It seems pretty good as a last second play, unfortunately it doesn't have flash so you can't really slam it out as a response to removal.
I see it following the same role as Lavinia, Azorius Renegade and Grand Abolisher in their ways of being hatebears and turning off opponent actions. Sterling Grove may not be a bear, but it does cost 2!

- Moth :cool:

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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

New card, Teferi's Ageless Insight seems pretty good for wall-ball turns when you're looking for gas, and our draw potential is extremely high, worth considering.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

It could certainly be a lovely top end draw effect that synergizes amazingly with Sylvan Library and/or Brainstorm. It's at the right CMC too to be playable, and I know I'm considering a copy of the card for my various cEDH lists.

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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

Towering Titan
Thoughts?

Might be a good top end for political trample plays, in my eyes it's far better suited for play in the beat-down version of the deck however.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Sadly, it's too expensive. This decklist really struggles with anything over 4 CMC and, as a top end, I'd rather be playing Chulane or multiple Defenders or recasting Arcades (he dies a lot). I'm curious as to what other Defenders they'll be printing.

The new Unicorn (Emiel the Blessed) looks pretty cool too as another way to enable Intruder Alarm. It's at a good CMC too and is a creature for tutoring applications.

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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

Going through the spoilers of Core 21 and Jumpstart, I cherry-picked some cards that might be interesting to think about as additions to the deck. I've sorted them into viability and given a few lines to each to explain further their impact on the deck as a whole if included.
Viable:
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Barrin, Tolarian Archmage
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Barrin, Tolarian Archmage acts as a souped-up Reflector Mage that if targeting ourselves also supplies card advantage at the end of the turn, similar to what playing the average defender would do with Arcades out!
Idol of Endurance:
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Idol of Endurance acts as an interesting take on all our reanimation type cards, (see Sun Titan, Reveillark, Sevinne's Reclamation, Colfenor's Urn etc) but this really shines to me as a card to pull back from after a board wipe as most of our curve sits at the 2 - 3 mana range and will therefore be picked up by the Idol and playable by it too. We can even get a discount on some defenders such as Axebane Guardian or Carven Caryatid by only using two mana to cast the creature from exile.
As well as this, we can active the artifact on an end step and have our creature ready to tap as soon as our turn comes around!
Teferi's Ageless Insight:
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Teferi's Ageless Insight is ridiculous for the list. It does the whole Panharmonicon job at 1 less mana and would be perfect to push for in early-game so you can go wild in mid-game if you happen to have it in your starting 7. This feels like Consecrated Sphinx on a rock to me, and I'm tempted to treat it that way and make the swap.
Emiel the Blessed:
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Emiel the Blessed is a magical wincon to rival that of Quicksilver Wall and Cloudstone Curio in usefulness. With the ability to flicker a Wall of Blossoms or Wall of Omens and get value even without Arcades out, (as well as SUPER value with him out), and being an infinite mana outlet to go mad with - I see this card as a great choice for the list.
also its a unicorn and i love it.
Questionable:
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Watcher of the Spheres:
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Watcher of the Spheres guarantees that Arcades hits the table on turn 3 and it becomes a 3/3 for that turn to swing in with. Overshadowed by most of our mana-dorks and the other ability can only trigger on a lucky drop of a Orator of Ojutai or Wall of Denial, doesn't do much else.
Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse:
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Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse gives us a 2/2 cat once a turn after we play a defender with Arcades out. The second clause on the card may be a good finisher after drawing out the entire deck and turning all our walls into hasty 60/60s using Crashing Drawbridge.
Doesn't really do anything else to help out our combo routes other than supply defence and be a possible wincon to reach for.
2 CMC is nice.
Chromatic Orrery:
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Chromatic Orrery is a big, fat mana rock. We're talking huge. It's also hugely expensive at 7 generic and 1 mana above even the highest top end cards in the deck like Sun Titan and Consecrated Sphinx.
Yes it immediately causes a Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal combo to go off. Yes it can filter our mana perfectly and it only effectively costs 2 after we drop it - but if we're at 7 mana? We have much more important things to be looking for.
Card draw is nice, but it'll only ever be 3 cards for 5 mana in our deck. Better placed in something with 4 or more colours.
Teferi, Master of Time:
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Teferi, Master of Time is a Planeswalker - generally a type of card that is a bit iffy in commander but if it works how I think it works then it'll be very effective. I think that you'd be able to active Tef's +1 on every players turn, giving him a free -3 (in a 4-player game) to phase out a danger, as well as looting constantly on enemy upkeeps. He can also be banked over time to take the equivalent of a Time Stretch. Two free extra turns can most likely be enough to simply win on the spot. It's not really in our playstyle, but the amount of defences we can put up, and if he is as overpowered as I think he is, I can overlook that. Not sure about the rulings, though!
Note: Phasing is NOT flickering. The creature never leaves the battlefield, it simply ceases to exist. This is why I use Ghostway over Teferi's Protection. This means that if an enemy creature has an ETB/LTB effect you need not worry about it. See rule 702.24d if they're trying to be a smartarse.
Mangara the Diplomat:
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Mangara, the Diplomat is the white dream for card advantage they've been wanting for nearly 30 years. 4 CMC is a little steep for the effects but it might be good for extra card advantage if we can find a slot for it. The chance that we could get 3 or more cards over a single turn cycle just from him also seems good. However, he's not a wall! Unfortunately. We have to find a happy medium between cards that are strictly good and cards that are defenders - Mangara may not make the cut in those eyes.
Towering Titan:
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Towering Titan is a card I have hope for. It's very heavy CMC wise, but it will come down in a good board state as an equally huge creature, somewhere around 10/10 or 15/15 on average once we get to a 'casting 6 mana spells' point of the game. The extra trample is great, and can even be a political point if you want to help another player get more damage in or use someone else to kill off a target.
I fear that the card would be far better in the more casual, beatdown build of the deck however, which keeps its viability questionable in this deck. Possible playtesting might be needed.
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner:
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Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is
counterspell.card
, which would be good to keep our dudes protected similar to playing a Grand Abolisher. The 3 CMC makes it less desirable, but it could trigger a Watcher of the Spheres as well as being made cheaper by one if we play a Watcher.
Oracle of Mul Daya:
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Oracle of Mul Daya. Reprints work wonders don't they? This falls under the same blanket of Mangara, the Diplomat above, do we play a card just because it's good but not a defender? However I personally feel this card is far stronger than Mangara in that particular aspect. If luck is on our side, a land-based rush could happen pushing us far ahead. Teams up well with cards such as Sylvan Library, Brainstorm and Scroll Rack. This would be better in a 34 land build over a 32 land build.
Coastal Piracy:
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Coastal Piracy is a combat-empowered card-advantage engine. An effective Edric, Spymaster of Trest on an enchantment, (far harder to destroy removal-wise) but costing 1 more. Like Towering Titan above this card may be better played in beatdown Arcades where people don't have the blockers to handle the walls and take those big hits to face. As this deck uses combat and aggro as a second strategy behind combo, I don't know if it has a place in the 99.
Niambi, Esteemed Speaker:
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Niambi, Esteemed Speaker can bounce a card we control on an opponents turn, such as Arcades in reaction to a board wipe - as well as bounce a troublesome creature on the opponent's side of the board. With a bounce-gine, we can go for infinite life using her. The second clause doesn't really do much for the deck currently.
Also, see Jeskai Barricade for a card that does something similar. I'm not sure if I want to drop a defender for a creature with a more useful ability. :sweat:
It is now 5:30AM, I'm going to bed, Discuss accordingly!

[Edit] I just read through your latest post on the Memnarch cEDH forum on how you compared Teferi's Ageless Insight to Consecrated Sphinx. Great minds think alike, eh? @benjameenbear

- Moth :cool:

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

It's similar enough to earn the comparison, but not quite as powerful as C. Sphinx. However, with a list that can trigger Arcades as much as this one can, I think the Insight is definitely worth the deck space. It makes the can-tripping Defenders become more viable and supercharges Arcades' draw trigger. I like it a lot and would consider running it alongside Emiel.

The new Barrin is cute but not really needed here, in my opinion. Idol of Endurance is a great look here since it rezzes creatures at instant speed and our curve is perfect for it.

Hmm, I'll have to tweak the list I've brainstormed to accomodate the new changes.

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Moth
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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

Is it just me or is the new Unicorn Emiel the Blessed functionally identical to Temur Sabertooth in this deck? Except it doesn't have the invincibility clause, but it does treat everything you are casting as if it only costs 1 CMC compared to using Sabertooths effect of having to cast the creature again from hand.

Do you think this is a direct swap out, or we should play both for the greater ability to go off once we get some mana going?

Can't wait to flicker Wall of Blossoms with the Unicorn while Arcades is out and I've got a Teferi's Ageless Insight in play though, spicy value.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

They serve a similar purpose overall (in recycling Defenders for more ETB triggers) but with a slight difference: the Sabertooth can hide your creatures from a board wipe. While it's fairly uncommon experience (maybe 1 or 2 wrath effects per game), being able to bounce Arcades back to hand to save on Commander tax has its uses.

But the Sabertooth inflates the mana cost of recycling Defenders because you have to activate its ability AND recast the creature, putting the creature back onto the stack where most of cEDH interaction lies.

So yes, they're functionally similar enough to make a clean swap in your decklist. Just remember the distinction when considering your playgroup and weighing how trigger happy they are/aren't with Wrath effects.

I personally think that it should be one or the other. Chulane and Curio already create redundancy in the deck from a recycling perspective and the deck needs a third one. A fourth instance of it could you leave you mildly more susceptible to competing with casting Arcades on curve vs. the 4-drop recycler.

Besides, Unicorns > Sabertooths according to my wife lol.

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Post by Moth » 3 years ago

Decided to draw up my own Primer with a nice, biblical twist. If you've got time, check it out!
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/primer- ... aster-edh/

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Post by Guenhwyvar » 3 years ago

Since you're using Temur Sabretooth, have you thought of using Great Oak Guardian? It untaps your creatures allowing you to create infinite mana and infinite +2 / +2 bonuses to your creatures.

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