Kaalia Stax & Aggro

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

This set was VERY disappointing for Kaalia. There's only two cards that I'd really consider for this deck: Erebos's Intervention and Underworld Breach. However, these are two pretty good cards and I'm definitely interested to see how Breach plays out. Being able to recur Stax pieces and creatures in the Late, Late game seems excellent to me so I'll be trying to pick up a couple copies of these cards.

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

I've still been meaning to get that list for you. Just haven't had a lot of motivation to sit and brew when I can just ...lean back and watch tv.

Wow that sounds lazy af.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

When you can, I'd love to check it out!

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

So, as you know, I've never brewed for cDH. This is quite honestly my first attempt. I think I've captured the philosophies well enough, however.
cDH Kaalia

Commander (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Deckstats: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-of-the-vast-cdh/

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RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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Post by Dracaryx » 4 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
4 years ago
Fair enough. Your intrigue has me curious enough to wonder what this list and to scour the internet to see if I can find a cEDH list. The only ones I've found that have been decent are the Worldgorger Combo lists and I think that they're WAY too vulnerable to disruption to be running.
I've found the Razakats combo to greatly mitigate the risk of WGD combo as with enough life and fast mana you can tutor for Silence, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast or what have you to protect your combo. I've also been having success with Bitter Ordeal as an alt Razakats win con but haven't seen many others use this. It's uncounterable outside of something like Flusterstorm and is also the most life-efficient route I've found from zero mana (Lotus Petal/Chrome MoxDark RitualBitter Ordeal) which can be relevant if you've paid a bunch of life/taken some damage over the course of the game. In the worst case it can be used to mess up top-of-deck tutors/combo decks but this rarely comes up

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Post by GabrielleAngelfire » 4 years ago

These decklists make me really excited. I have had problems playing Kaalia in the past, namely that I become archenemy INSTANTLY before the game even starts, and the table aggro lasting even after I switched decks. It was a very low-power Kaalia decklist too, without any MLD and very few Stax pieces. I stopped playing it, traded away Kaalia, and decided that was the end of it. Now I'm at a different LGS, and this one has a lot of people playing at it. Now I need decks of varying power levels so that I can sit down and play in any pod. To give you an idea of what I have, I have two decks, both of them are like a 5 or so on the power scale where 1 is a stack of almost random cards slapped together, just barely a deck, and 9-10 is cEDH (the scale that The Command Zone podcast uses).

What I'm looking for is a deck that's like a 7 or 8 on the power scale, so really focused, but not Breakfast Hulk level. Is the budget Kaalia list somewhere in that ballpark? I'm on a budget, I'd say I'm willing to spend like $15 a card not counting Kaalia herself, maybe throw in a couple more Stax pieces and/or eventually improve the mana base to have shocks and fetches in it and a couple good utility lands, so I could probably afford something a little more powerful than the Kaalia aggro list if I maybe start with it and gradually switch out cards, but I don't have the deckbuilding skill, and will never be able to afford the full power version.

I really want to play Kaalia, but I don't want to become the most disliked player at my LGS again. I also don't want to show up with a deck that's less powerful than it seems to be based on the commander, and I want to be able to feel like I'm having some impact in the game. Answers and any advice is much appreciated.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

GabrielleAngelfire wrote:
4 years ago
These decklists make me really excited. I have had problems playing Kaalia in the past, namely that I become archenemy INSTANTLY before the game even starts, and the table aggro lasting even after I switched decks. It was a very low-power Kaalia decklist too, without any MLD and very few Stax pieces. I stopped playing it, traded away Kaalia, and decided that was the end of it. Now I'm at a different LGS, and this one has a lot of people playing at it. Now I need decks of varying power levels so that I can sit down and play in any pod. To give you an idea of what I have, I have two decks, both of them are like a 5 or so on the power scale where 1 is a stack of almost random cards slapped together, just barely a deck, and 9-10 is cEDH (the scale that The Command Zone podcast uses).

What I'm looking for is a deck that's like a 7 or 8 on the power scale, so really focused, but not Breakfast Hulk level. Is the budget Kaalia list somewhere in that ballpark? I'm on a budget, I'd say I'm willing to spend like $15 a card not counting Kaalia herself, maybe throw in a couple more Stax pieces and/or eventually improve the mana base to have shocks and fetches in it and a couple good utility lands, so I could probably afford something a little more powerful than the Kaalia aggro list if I maybe start with it and gradually switch out cards, but I don't have the deckbuilding skill, and will never be able to afford the full power version.

I really want to play Kaalia, but I don't want to become the most disliked player at my LGS again. I also don't want to show up with a deck that's less powerful than it seems to be based on the commander, and I want to be able to feel like I'm having some impact in the game. Answers and any advice is much appreciated.
You're not going to have success playing 3c in non green while being unwilling to spend on good cards that let your deck do it's work, so I don't think Kaalia is much of an option for you given those parameters. Even my white border Kaalia, while most the deck could get picked up for under a buck, the deck is still weighing in ~$300usd. And that's what I consider the ultimate "starter" Kaalia, as it doesn't change because white borders are discontinued.

You might for the budget do better looking into one similar to my Kairi Sane (Kari Zev) deck, which is mono colour and much easier to be competitive on a light budget. My link in sig is not budget, but theres some easy extrapolation from that you could apply. Personally I love it enough that I've commissioned many alters for the deck's key cards.

Well, you asked an opinion. That's what I'd do given I were in your situation.

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Post by GabrielleAngelfire » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago

You're not going to have success playing 3c in non green while being unwilling to spend on good cards that let your deck do it's work, so I don't think Kaalia is much of an option for you given those parameters. Even my white border Kaalia, while most the deck could get picked up for under a buck, the deck is still weighing in ~$300usd. And that's what I consider the ultimate "starter" Kaalia, as it doesn't change because white borders are discontinued.

You might for the budget do better looking into one similar to my Kairi Sane (Kari Zev) deck, which is mono colour and much easier to be competitive on a light budget. My link in sig is not budget, but theres some easy extrapolation from that you could apply. Personally I love it enough that I've commissioned many alters for the deck's key cards.

Well, you asked an opinion. That's what I'd do given I were in your situation.
What do you think of running a creature based Maelstrom Wanderer? That's a deck that is like Kaalia in the way that it cheats in big things. I have a budget Kari Zev deck built for French Duel Commander, so I'd need to revamp it a LOT for multiplayer (list can be found here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/french-d ... i-zev-rdw/). There are other commanders that I'm interested in, like Selvala, Explorer Returned. Could a deck that's almost cEDH level be built from her? Maybe an infinite mill combo strategy? Or Meren of Clan Nel Toth aristocrats?

My angel goodstuff deck (list is at http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/archange ... nge-mk-ii/) ended up costing around $400, all told, but I had workable versions to play as I was investing in better cards. I don't know if that deck could be turned into an 8.. possibly if I went heavy stax, which would be expensive. Thanks for the response and for your candor. I think I'm feeling Selesnya colors.. Selvala, possibly Saffi Eriksdotter combo can be built for $400 or less and hit that 7-8 power level sweet spot? (I'd need a deck tech because I don't know how that combo works). Everyone else, feel free to chime in on either Kaalia or anything like what I've mentioned?
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Post by SquirrelToken » 4 years ago

GabrielleAngelfire wrote:
4 years ago
I really want to play Kaalia, but I don't want to become the most disliked player at my LGS again.
Part of the problem is that when you announce your general, a lot of people will assume that you're playing her as kill-on-sight. Kaalia is one of those generals that basically combos with herself to do dumb, dumb things, and the table has to assume that you're going to drop turn 3 Avacyn or something like that. If you want to play Kaalia and not be the archenemy, I'd lead with other decks that are around a 5 so that people get to know you, and then pull out Kaalia about a month in and say "Don't worry, it's still me." Don't lead with Kaalia.

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Post by GabrielleAngelfire » 4 years ago

SquirrelToken wrote:
4 years ago
GabrielleAngelfire wrote:
4 years ago
I really want to play Kaalia, but I don't want to become the most disliked player at my LGS again.
Part of the problem is that when you announce your general, a lot of people will assume that you're playing her as kill-on-sight. Kaalia is one of those generals that basically combos with herself to do dumb, dumb things, and the table has to assume that you're going to drop turn 3 Avacyn or something like that. If you want to play Kaalia and not be the archenemy, I'd lead with other decks that are around a 5 so that people get to know you, and then pull out Kaalia about a month in and say "Don't worry, it's still me." Don't lead with Kaalia.
Thankfully I'm at an LGS now where the Commander group is like 50 people and I can find a pod and discuss power level with them before starting, and now I need a deck that's like... somewhere between cEDH and casual play. The bad part though about so many people is I'm constantly looking for the pod that needs another person, so getting to know a group of people and them getting to know my signature deck(s) is harder. I need a high power deck (optimized but not to quite the level of cEDH) for those times when I find a pod where people want to play their 7s and 8s. From what people have told me the vast majority of people in the store play anything from 4s to 8s. Maybe I need to make a post in the main commander section about this, because this involves Rule 0, and from what I've heard people say, the Rule 0 of cEDH is that there basically is no Rule 0. People are trying to make something overwhelmingly powerful and make a deck that is as strong and busted as the official rules allow.

I can't afford to spend $1,000 and up on a deck so I'm kinda stuck if I want a really powerful deck to make a budget version of a deck that caps out at probably an 8/10 or possibly a 9/10. One of the main things I don't want is to bring a nuke to a knife fight, or a butter knife to a nuclear war. So is Kaalia, if built right, basically the sort of deck where if you get your commander to stick, it's basically over? I want to feel like I've had some kind of impact on the game, even if I don't win.
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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

I have a Kaalia list in my signature that is quite the presence at a table. I have personally found that playing a Stax heavy version of Kaalia has been more effective than any other configuration that I've tried. I've tried a Worldgorger Combo, I've tried Kiki Cat combo, and I've tried other infinite combos but they just don't seem to carry as much punch as the Stax version. I recommend giving it a try because the Stax pieces you can use are relatively inexpensive (I think? It's been a while since I've seen prices...) and you can acquire the more effective Kaalia pieces as you go. I think I have a budget section listed out on the Primer there.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

Updated the OP to add in the following cards: Castle Locthwain, Arcane Signet, Grafdigger's Cage, Morbid Curiosity, Toxic Deluge.

The Castle replaces Forbidden Orchard since the spirit tokens help other Tymna decks get more cards. The Signet replaces Generator Servant, which I think is a strict upgrade. Grafdigger's Cage comes back in with the rise of a solid Grixis Reanimator deck and the rise of Sushi Hulk in the place of Red Elemental Blast. Magus of the Wheel was too slow, so Morbid Curiosity comes back in. And I don't remember what I took out to bring back Deluge. Oh well. Tymna decks gotta die.

I'm hoping that Ikoria will have some sweet Angels, Demons, or Dragons in Mardu colors! Another tutor or Stax effect stapled to an A/D/D would be great.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
So, as you know, I've never brewed for cDH. This is quite honestly my first attempt. I think I've captured the philosophies well enough, however.
cDH Kaalia

Commander (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Deckstats: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-of-the-vast-cdh/
I realized that I never actually responded to this list. My bad!

I've always been leery of WGD combos, personally. I occasionally play in a heavy blue cEDH meta where instant speed tricks are everywhere, so the risk of being screwed out of my board state has always been too high for me to justify. Additionally, the board state necessary to actually win with WGD combo takes too much since Kaalia has now ETB or activated ability that you can dump the mana into.

In regards to your list, you could EASILY cut 4 of your lands to add in more cards. 38 lands will lead to mana flood more often than not in a cEDH meta, where the turns actually extend past T4 pretty frequently. Optimizing your deck for consistency is more important than I think you might realize and my impression from your decklist is that you'd easily run out of gas.

I highly recommend adding in Hellkite Tyrant. Tutoring for it with Wishclaw Talisman and then ETB attacking the donated player just to get the Wishclaw back is a glorious line of play that happens VERY often now. It's like having 3 Demonic Tutors on a stick with an active Tyrant.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

If I cut lands. I have to cut Mox Diamond because it's no longer consistent enough. Can't play it on sub 36 lands, and 36 is pushing it lest you get the dreaded two land and a mox opener. I never understood why these players would submit themselves to over mulliganing with only a third of their decks being land - it's like the old and very much erroneous ideal from 4ED where you play "1/3 land, 2/3 spells". You know what gets away with the 20/40 split? Burn decks - decks that function on, and don't want to ever see more than two lands.

I guess this is all moot though, since I sold out of 85% of my collection anyway. For now - turns out you look at mana crypts and candelabras sitting around much differently when you've got a car note you want to make disappear.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

Because draw-7 effects are so common in cEDH, people deliberately play a lower land count and the fast mana rocks that may not be ideal in a normal situation. That's why nearly every cEDH deck will play a Mox Diamond even though they're only playing somewhere between 28-32 lands.

After thinking about it REALLY hard, and doing some research online, I've decided that I'm going to go ahead and give WGD combo another shot. I admit that the last time I got blown out during the WGD loop was a long time ago and things have definitely changed in the cEDH meta. So, the list that I'm going to test out will look something like this:
cEDH Kaalia's Stax Combo

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

It has WGD outlets in the form of: Dragon Tempest, Aurelia's Fury, Mayhem Devil, Bogardan Hellkite, and Rune-Scarred Demon.

It adds in the Razakats loop so that you can flicker an enchantment-reanimate effect with Leonin Relic-Warder and Razaketh to tutor as many times as you can afford to with your life total. Burnt Offering is in the deck so that you could assemble any of the infinite combos or game locks you might need to wrap up the game.

It also adds in the Possibility Storm and Eidolon of Rhetoric lock, which I've never known about until now (!). In all my years of playing EDH, I've never heard or read about this lock until now? Where have I been?

Mayhem Devil actually seems like an incredible card in a cEDH game. Being able to ping mana dorks and life totals every time someone fetches, pays additional costs, or cracks a Treasure token seems REALLY good to me. It also has the ability to turn off opposing infinite sac loops that can't deal damage to the Devil directly.

Final Payment, Costly Plunder, and Morbid Curiosity are in the deck because they now serve an additional function of being able to sacrifice my own Stax pieces when I'm ready to combo besides being decent cards on their own.

It then has the normal suite of Stax options so that you can slow the game down to Kaalia-speed. I've intentionally left in Stax pieces that interfere with the main combo lines because they represent so much more pressure to opponents in executing their own gameplan. I figure that, by the time they've answered the multi-layer Stax board I've created, I should have had time to assemble a combo and win.

I'm curious to see how this goes!

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Post by _clay_ » 4 years ago

Considering what you're trying to do here, I would highly recommend joining the Kaalia Discord Server (https://discord.gg/ECyeaBq). I hear they're doing great work over there.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

_clay_ wrote:
4 years ago
Considering what you're trying to do here, I would highly recommend joining the Kaalia Discord Server (https://discord.gg/ECyeaBq). I hear they're doing great work over there.
+1. Seems what you're leading to, now, @benjameenbear, is a few iterations behind the current revelations in the discord. Even if you stick with this path, I believe the knowledge and interactions would prove invaluable to add to your repertoire.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

Drannith Magistrate is another combo card with Possibility Storm, so I'm thinking really hard about focusing on pure Stax and lock-down with Kaalia.

This is a cool set for Commander, frankly, and I'm really pleased with everything. While there haven't been any sweet Kaalia targets revealed yet, there have been a number of excellent cards spoiled already that will make the OP.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Too bad there aren't any sweet Kaalia targets in either the Commander or Ikoria releases. Sigh...

Commander and Ikoria Set Review:
  • Mythos of Snapdax - a pretty decent pseudo Cataclysm effect without the best MLD part of it. I think this is definitely acceptable for a more casual playgroup.
  • Drannith Magistrate - this card is incredible for Kaalia. One of the ways that most decks recover from Kaalia's annihilation is through the Commander. The Magistrate shuts that off while also being a true hard-lock with Possibility Storm. A solid card that I recommend to anyone playing Stax in cEDH.
  • Footfall Crater - a marginal Lightning Greaves, it has a great chance of sticking around for a goodly while.
  • Heartless Act - this basically reads as clean, 2CMC destroy target creature. Wizards finally did it - a better Doom Blade.
  • Savai Triome - duh.
  • Deadly Rollick - a great card, but the red one is probably better for protecting Kaalia.
  • Deflecting Swat - phenomenal card for protecting Kaalia and her targets. I highly recommend it.
  • Netherborn Altar - a decent card for when Kaalia's CMC gets out of hand.
  • Arcane Signet - a superior mana rock for casting Kaalia on time.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

I think Altar is a trap. Once Kaalia gets that high, you dont care about casting her anyway. If you want the effect, command beacon is infinitely stronger in the mana base and adds to reasons to play Crucible.

Please don't play this card. Save yourself.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I think that's a fair point. I merely include it in my review because it seems like one of the few cards a Kaalia deck could consider.

I think it will be EXTREMELY interesting to see how the cEDH meta adjusts to Flash Hulk fading out of the meta. I'm torn between going for a combo heavy Kaalia or continuing with the traditional Stax Kaalia that's historically worked so well for me. I have the pieces for WGD combo as well as Razakats but I'm not sure I want to make them permanent additions to the OP yet. I've only been able to get 1v1 games in against my wife (who pilots Kaalia) and 1v1 games are super lopsided - in Kaalia's favor ironically. As of yet, I haven't seen a combo fired off yet because the traditional plan of Stax + Kaalia beats has been so effective.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Geddon Kaalia will come right back on the upswing now, but you'll need to be able to hit dorks reliably - cursed totem will be mandatory and Flame Sweep rather strong.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I think you're right. With the Flash Monster gone, the format will inevitably slow down (even if it's only by a marginal amount with the Forbidden Tutors and Thassa's Oracle) which makes permanent-based value/card-advantage engines more attractive and playable. It's a little bit safer now to tap out to develop your board state. Emphasis on a little bit, lol ('cause cEDH is awesome).

I've been pondering on Earthquake in addition to Rolling Earthquake, Flame Sweep, Fire Covenant, and Toxic Deluge for a while now and I think it has some chops as another wrath effect for the low-to-the-ground CMC and Toughness creatures that dominate the cEDH format. I think it deserves an entry in the Primer here at the least.

I personally am terribly excited to throw down Drannith Magistrate and Possibility Storm. Possibility Storm screws up game plans SUPER hard, thus making it a decent Stax/Chaos piece, and becomes a hard lock with the Magistrate. Being able to legitimately play solitaire with Kaalia sounds too good to pass up. And Possibility Storm doesn't seem like a bad idea for Kaalia because nearly every spell in the deck is valuable. Casting an artifact (with P. Storm in play) will still usually result in a mana rock being cast. Casting a creature from hand will still result in a powerful Kaalia target being cast or a solid Stax piece. Etc. The more I think about it, the more I believe that Possibility Storm screws over blue decks and highlights the individual card power of a deck, which naturally favors sans-Blue strategies, and deserves solid testing by itself.

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Post by Hungasaur » 3 years ago

Great post! and an interesting read right through.
Kaalia was probably one of the first Edh decks I ever made am looking forward to bringing her back into mix sans flash hulk. more, sax, more MLD and cheating value fatties into play. Kaalia is back Baby!
Drannith Magistrate and Possibility Storm looks really strong.
How is the new version of WGD working out for you ?
I've always struggled with using this particular combo with Kaalia , as its a big investment of cards to enable it to be pulled off with any regularity/outlets for the mana.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Thanks for the compliment. I worked really hard on the Primer back in the day and it's always gratifying to hear that it's received well.

I haven't had a chance to test out WGD combo at this moment. I too have always been leery at the number of cards it requires to fire off effectively but Razaketh helps a ton with assembling it all together.

However, I think there are also some good lines involving Burnt Offering that could perhaps be considered in conjunction with Kuldotha Rebirth. The Offering would allow you to turn Razaketh into 8 mana that could cast the Storm and a mana rock that would generate w for the Magistrate. But we would need an additional target in conjunction with Kaalia to make it work since Rebirth spawns 3 bodies and we need 4 bodies to tutor for Storm, Burnt Offering, Magistrate, and a white producing mana rock.

A separate observation of mine is worth sharing here, I think. With the prevalence of fetch-lands in cEDH decks, I've noticed that Mayhem Devil could actually be a really solid powerhouse for sniping mana dorks and applying soft pressure to life totals. There are enough sac effects present in a game to get at least 4-5 triggers should the Devil stay in play which could do a great job of clearing the field of the ubiquitous mana dorks. I want to get more games in before I make a conclusive judgment but suffice to say I've been more impressed than I ever anticipated with the Devil.

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