Kenrith Mid-Range

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

My Breya cEDH list seems to be washing out in card advantage a little too frequently for my liking. I want to pivot the cEDH pieces from that deck into a new Mid-Range deck. And I do love Seedborn Muse as a Card Advantage engine alongside Kenrith.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

My thoughts on a Kenrith deck are this, have FUN. Because of his all inclusive ability, all you have to do is generate mana and you get ahead. Personally I have ran a Evolution style decklist with him and a Midrange/control list. Both get to the point insanely fast and consistently. Right now, he is a secret commander in my Prismatic Bridge list, and more often than not wins the game after hitting the board.

I would personally drop the Scepter lines, Kenrith thrives off creatures, not artifacts, and sometimes recovering from a failed line that your commander doesn't promote, is very feels bad. Derevi should 100% be an include in my opinion, especially since you are running Emiel. Derevi's value in combo, blocking, attacking, and tapping down a threat are immense, and shouldn't be overlooked. I would also drop some of the wheel effects. Kenrith has his own draw ability, and combined with untapping, you can typically net 3 or more cards in a turn cycle. This is worth more than everyone drawing cards in my opinion.

Anyway, I look forward to where you go with the deck, sorry it's been so long since i've been around.

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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

What's up @UnNamed1. Good to see you!

Honestly, this list is just a placeholder list for a 5-color Mid-Range style list. I'm actually piloting a Najeela list atm that has more card advantage sources built in than normal. I haven't had a chance to play too many quality games with it to form a solid opinion of it yet. If it turns out that Najeela gets too much hate, then I'll probably pivot towards Kenrith as my cEDH style Commander.

What was your experience with the Evolution deck? I've seen a list that Evolutions into Deadeye Navigator, but that particular list seems to have a crazy dependence on getting Dockside Extortionist in order to create infinite mana. I've debated about including Derevi, Empyrial Tactician and Gaea's Cradle for another non-Extortionist infinite mana outlet, so that's certainly a consideration.

My thinking for the Wheel effects (particularly Twister) is that it acts as pseudo-'yard hate in addition to forcing the Breacher/Thief combo. I think I want to include at least 1 of these cards in the deck so I can tutor for it and try to clean out my opponent's hands and more easily win. The opportunity cost is so low, in my mind, that not including at least one way to force that within my own deck would be a mistake.

Yeah, I can see cutting the Dramatic Scepter package. It was in there as another simple 2-card combo that synergizes with the heavy count of mana sources. I'm not married to it, it was just a simple add that increased the diversity of the combo lines in the deck. I'd probably add in Deflecting Swat and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician for it since those two are solid cards.

Thoughts on Spell Queller? I like that it exiles spells on the stack, to get around Veil of Summer and uncounterable effects that pop up (mostly Cavern of Souls and I also like that it's a body I can rez with Kenrith's ability for an emergency Counterspell effect.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
2 years ago
What's up @UnNamed1. Good to see you!
Hey, thanks man. I took a major break, mentally was taking a dive. But I'm back and have a Veyran, Voice of Duality brew in the works... ;)
Honestly, this list is just a placeholder list for a 5-color Mid-Range style list. I'm actually piloting a Najeela list atm that has more card advantage sources built in than normal. I haven't had a chance to play too many quality games with it to form a solid opinion of it yet. If it turns out that Najeela gets too much hate, then I'll probably pivot towards Kenrith as my cEDH style Commander.
Oh I love Najeela. I've worked closely with Pongo (the proclaimed Najeela expert) on tuning my list and making sure it is optimized for my meta. She draws a lot of hate, but there is a lot of alternate routes to victory in the deck.
What was your experience with the Evolution deck? I've seen a list that Evolutions into Deadeye Navigator, but that particular list seems to have a crazy dependence on getting Dockside Extortionist in order to create infinite mana. I've debated about including Derevi, Empyrial Tactician and Gaea's Cradle for another non-Extortionist infinite mana outlet, so that's certainly a consideration.

My thinking for the Wheel effects (particularly Twister) is that it acts as pseudo-'yard hate in addition to forcing the Breacher/Thief combo. I think I want to include at least 1 of these cards in the deck so I can tutor for it and try to clean out my opponent's hands and more easily win. The opportunity cost is so low, in my mind, that not including at least one way to force that within my own deck would be a mistake.
I loved the evolution deck. I'm trying to find my old decklist for it however; no luck yet. I purposefully included no counters, on the premise of "try and stop me, I dare you". The recursion and resilence of the deck suprised me and I won probably 60% of my games. I had Kikki Jikki lines, Dead-eye Nav lines, Derevi lines, Dockside lines, P-Image lines, Impact Tremors, pretty much every way 2+ creatures could combo and win was in there. Depending on what was in the graveyard and what I had on board determined what I went for.
Yeah, I can see cutting the Dramatic Scepter package. It was in there as another simple 2-card combo that synergizes with the heavy count of mana sources. I'm not married to it, it was just a simple add that increased the diversity of the combo lines in the deck. I'd probably add in Deflecting Swat and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician for it since those two are solid cards.

Thoughts on Spell Queller? I like that it exiles spells on the stack, to get around Veil of Summer and uncounterable effects that pop up (mostly Cavern of Souls and I also like that it's a body I can rez with Kenrith's ability for an emergency Counterspell effect.
I'm not a fan of it, but I see the mana cost and shy away. I can definitely see uses, but you get into Magic Christmas Land at that point. Also, do you really want to spend 5 mana res ability on a counter? it might be worth testing, but IMO would quickly be on the chopping block.

While I wasn't able to find my Evo list, I did find my Mid-range. Feel free to take a look....
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/g2-2FFpbU0aUi1OYTbWocA

For whatever reason I seem to be missing two cards, so feel free to add fun stuff :p

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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

@UnNamed1
Well, let's talk Najeela then! I love the pressure she brings and the fact that she has a couple of 1 card combos as I've found I really enjoy playing proactive tempo decks in cEDH. I played an Edric deck WAY back and it was extremely powerful. It was basically "board wipe me or die", and I think Najeela brings the same kind of pressure to the table.

My current list runs both Edric AND Toski as ways to leverage the higher creature count in the deck and to make Najeela even more dangerous. I noticed that your list doesn't roll with those cards. Why not? I think either of them can run away with the game and are easily tutorable, particularly with Evolution or Neoform.

How is Mystic Reflection working for you? It seems like a powerful Gilded Drake kind of effect for a problem Commander or an Oracle on the stack.

Lastly, no Ignoble Hierarch or Dauthi Voidwalker? The Najeela discord seems to unanimously standby these cards as great inclusions.

In regards Spell Queller, I was pointing out the corner case example of it being dead with an active Kenrith in play. It's a great creature-based counterspell that can also block Tymna decks effectively and dodges a lot of the 2-damage sweepers. I think it's a solid card that is underrated by the community that has particular synergy with Kenrith, since he can rez creatures at instant speed.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

@benjameenbear
Absolutely! So, to start with my online list isn't fully updated (as I said, took an extended leave to fix my mental), and didn't realize you would look at her lol.

Anyway, my paper list does have Ignoble Heirarch, and I'm on the hunt for a Toski. I have heavily blinged my deck so want to find a good deal on a fancy version. Edric is ran in the more mid-range/staxy lists, I personally leaned into a gotta go fast/tempo style build. I personally am not a fan of giving opponents cards, even if it slightly protects me. There is a lot of target removal and wipes in my meta, so I spend a lot of resources protecting the queen.

Mystic Reflection actually just got the cut into my Thassa deck. I love the card and the idea, but I never have it when it would be most useful (though I did turn a Kaalia of the Vast into a warrior token) outside of the rare occasion. Its niche, and you can't afford that in cEDH. I actually replaced it for Ignoble, since I don't run Arbor Elf.

Voidwalker is another card I need to keep an eye out for, I've been away for awhile. It is definitely good, especially with discarding and the amount of cards we go through in a cEDH game.

Spell queller may be underrated and I will continue to think that it isn't great. I feel like having 3 open mana is a very telegraphed play, either for breacher/thief or a suite of counters. I would definitely stop and consider before playing anything with someone having that open mana. I do agree it has more synergy with Kenrith, but does that make it worth an include? I still don't think so.


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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

@UnNamed1
Glad you took a break for the mental, my friend. A lot of people (probably myself included) don't respect their mental health enough and it takes energy to maintain, just like your physical health.

Yeah, I remember watching a Najeela deck from the Playing with Power YouTube channel and being VERY impressed with its resiliency and simultaneous pressure capabilities. I picked up a copy when she was spoiled because I saw her potential, but never got around to building her. After I watched that vid (can't remember which one), I decided I'd give her a shot. I've not really had a chance to see her really perform yet because I've been 3rd or 4th in the turn rotation against veritable god-starts from my opponents lately and I've been targeted due to reputation (sigh...).

For your own particular Najeela list, since it's heavier on the tempo/go fast, do you ever find that you don't have enough card advantage? After my own recent spate of bad luck with drawing card advantage in the 99, I've been personally overloading on card advantage sources in my decks or just straight up changing my Commander to one that can generate card advantage. Has this been an issue for you? I did a recent count for my own Najeela deck and there's nearly 15 sources of card draw or advantage.

Also, how often do you find yourself in stalled board states? I picked up a copy of Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive as a way to break through with Najeela's tokens and keep the pressure mounted, but I've also considered Champion of Lambholt as another way to create unblockable combat steps so that I can utilize Najeela's ability to the fullest. I was playing a game with Najeela against an Urza, Teshar, and Pako + Haldan deck and there were multiple times that I had no good attacks since they all had blockers. I feel like this situation actually comes up frequently enough that it would be legitimately concerning.

Eh, I have a pretty eclectic approach to card evaluation and deck building (I think), which is why I want to give Queller a solid test. A creature-based Counterspell that gets around uncounterable effects seems particularly powerful in today's meta so I think it at least has merit. Sure, 3 mana is telegraphing interaction, and undoubtedly people will plan on your interaction with their own counterspells, but so many people are running NON-CREATURE counters to protect their combo turns that I think Queller will simply do its thing and laugh at their interaction. The cEDH meta, from my observation of YouTube channels I follow, is that it's heavily non-creature oriented (with the exception of Dockside). It's ridiculous how frequently a single creature can run away with the game and no one can really interact with it. Hell, how many times has Dockside resolved and run away with the game? It feels like too many times to count, frankly, and it exposes a major weakness of the current cEDH meta imo.

Wow. That Kenrith Pod list... Talk about insane pressure for combo potential. I like the inclusion of Najeela in the 99, lol.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I remember watching a Najeela deck from the Playing with Power YouTube channel and being VERY impressed with its resiliency and simultaneous pressure capabilities. I picked up a copy when she was spoiled because I saw her potential, but never got around to building her. After I watched that vid (can't remember which one), I decided I'd give her a shot. I've not really had a chance to see her really perform yet because I've been 3rd or 4th in the turn rotation against veritable god-starts from my opponents lately and I've been targeted due to reputation (sigh...).

For your own particular Najeela list, since it's heavier on the tempo/go fast, do you ever find that you don't have enough card advantage? After my own recent spate of bad luck with drawing card advantage in the 99, I've been personally overloading on card advantage sources in my decks or just straight up changing my Commander to one that can generate card advantage. Has this been an issue for you? I did a recent count for my own Najeela deck and there's nearly 15 sources of card draw or advantage.

Also, how often do you find yourself in stalled board states? I picked up a copy of Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive as a way to break through with Najeela's tokens and keep the pressure mounted, but I've also considered Champion of Lambholt as another way to create unblockable combat steps so that I can utilize Najeela's ability to the fullest. I was playing a game with Najeela against an Urza, Teshar, and Pako + Haldan deck and there were multiple times that I had no good attacks since they all had blockers. I feel like this situation actually comes up frequently enough that it would be legitimately concerning.
I understand the targeting factor, 1 warrior and Najeela on board, but I'm the biggest threat at the table at all times....

9/10 I don't have any issue with card draw/advantage. I would like a little more, as I'd rather have a full grip at all times than missing out on some, but I haven't edited the list in quite some time. I haven't really had a true cEDH game in some time either that has allowed me to play her.

By the time the game is headed towards a stalled state, I am already looking for oracle pieces. Most times its an easy and quick pivot and you should already have the protection needed in hand. I did originally run Lambholt, however; I think it got cut just for better cards at the time. I do like Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive, it might be worth asking Pongo why it isn't used. Most times however I can push through enough to always be progressing, or I can pivot into oracle for the win.
Eh, I have a pretty eclectic approach to card evaluation and deck building (I think), which is why I want to give Queller a solid test. A creature-based Counterspell that gets around uncounterable effects seems particularly powerful in today's meta so I think it at least has merit. Sure, 3 mana is telegraphing interaction, and undoubtedly people will plan on your interaction with their own counterspells, but so many people are running NON-CREATURE counters to protect their combo turns that I think Queller will simply do its thing and laugh at their interaction. The cEDH meta, from my observation of YouTube channels I follow, is that it's heavily non-creature oriented (with the exception of Dockside). It's ridiculous how frequently a single creature can run away with the game and no one can really interact with it. Hell, how many times has Dockside resolved and run away with the game? It feels like too many times to count, frankly, and it exposes a major weakness of the current cEDH meta imo.

Wow. That Kenrith Pod list... Talk about insane pressure for combo potential. I like the inclusion of Najeela in the 99, lol.
I like the card, don't get me wrong, I just don't know that it would find itself a home in any of my lists. Personally I make sure to include target spell counters, not just non-creature counters, for the simple fact of not wanting certain creatures to resolve. It's the only reason Mana Drain hasn't been cut.

I'm glad you like the Kenrith list. It was always a threat, even with just dorks on the field and was a blast to play. I might have to rebuild it with a more competitive mindset and add protection to it so there are fewer blowouts, not that there were many to begin with. Honestly the biggest weakness was always the mana base.

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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

Well, the Hullbreacher ban isn't a terrible surprise but it is sad to see go. I'm fairly neutral about it, but I expect the rise of Wheel decks to pretty significant. I'll probably slot in Notion Thief to keep a creature-based draw denial card in the deck that can be Neoformed or Evolution'ed into.

I was already including Timetwister in the deck as a pseudo-'yard hate piece and to force the Breacher + Wheel combo in my own 99, and I think that with Breacher being banned that Twister gets a little better since the chances of being blown out by it go down. Thoughts?

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

I don't expect much to change except a reversal to where we were before CML. Hullbreacher never did anything wrong, especially if you bring interaction to the table....oh well. I'm beating a dead horse over here.

Personally not a fan of Notion Thief, but I also don't like anything over 3 CMC. Guess that comes with Najeela now being a solid 1.05 average CMC. I did formally update the online version if you would like to take a look now. However, I will say Kenrith would be a great deck if you want to go into evolution/pod lines, and its a lesser played strategy these days. I would personally only play thief if I had a use beyond the initial "gotcha!" moment.

I like Timetwister. I don't remember if you had anything allowing you to loop it, but Twister loops are a very fun way to win the game. Obviously, there is still always a chance of blowout (statistically low, but cards don't care about statistics) and the biggest worry is always drawing a worse grip of cards than you had pre wheel. Underworld Breach should definitely be an include with Breacher gone, as it lets you get 1 massive turn.

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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

You know, I don't think I've actually posted my Najeela list. Let me correct that real quick:

Najeela Beatz

Utility/Flex Slots (4)

Approximate Total Cost:

It's pretty heavy on interacting with the Stack (16 counterspells), and part of me wonder if that's overkill. It seems like the standard count for stack interaction is about 13/14 pieces, so I could potentially have 1-2 spots open, probably for ramp/removal.

I personally don't like Nature's Will as it depends on having the correct land distribution in order to go infinite. I see the utility of being able to tap down an opponent's lands to stop interaction, which is definitely appealing, but I think being able to store mana via the Repository is more my style of play. It's also a cheaper CMC and doesn't require for your creatures to connect.

Thoughts on the list? Spell Queller is definitely a flex slot that I want to actively test based on my points previously discussed.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

Hey @benjameenbear, I overall like the list. There are a few things that stand out to me however.

Faeburrow Elder - Great card, I personally run it in my not as high power lists. Tapping for 5 man is pretty strong! However, how often will you have all 5 color's of permanents in play? In my experience it will tap for 3-4 mana most times, and thats still strong, but it would be really awkward if you need that 1 color you can't produce. It does have vigilance allowing it to work well with Najeela however; it is still 3 mana for a mana dork. And you have Ad Naus in the deck....Not sold on this decision.

Ad Nauseam - Love this card. Wonderful card advantage, however just a quick glance over your list, its pretty high on the CMC side from what I'm seeing. Granted I haven't done the math, but if you take an average of 25 life from Ad Naus, with 3-4 cmc cards you're looking at probably 11 Cards, with 3 of those being lands (roughly 1/3). I think if you could drop the average CMC of the deck, definitely include this, however in your current build, I would be scared to cast this.

Arcane Signet - I'll be honest, I used to run this in my deck and I was criticized as it was "too slow". I never thought it was, until the game where it was. It happened multiple games where playing the Signet was just a feels bad play/turn. I guess this is meta dependent and depends on where you want the overall decklist to be at power wise. Personally would cut this, but it does its job.

Notion Thief - cries in Hullbreacher banning.....

Esper Sentinel - Surprised you aren't running this. Personally, I'm finding it difficult to decide what to cut anymore from my list, but looking at your list, I would put this over a variety of cards. Play testing puts it over Ponder at the very least, so I would definitely consider this inclusion.

Ancient Tomb - Honestly not a fan in a Najeela list. You want to make colors, not colorless. Even a basic Forest is better in my opinion. Pongo has the mana base pretty figured out for the Primer version, and I believe he cover's why ancient tomb isn't there. Sure it helps cast Najeela, but you will most times be casting her T2 anyway, so Tomb doesn't really speed that up (except for the rare occasion of a lotus/tomb opening).

As far as your counterspell package, I think its solid but do agree it's a little much. Counterspell or Spell Queller would be my cuts. I've already talked about the queller, I don't think it has a home in cEDH, but potentially high power where you can allow for some pet cards/decisions. Counterspell being double blue and NOT providing the mana advantage that Mana Drain does is a feels bad. Holding up double blue can hurt a lot especially since that would be majorly telegraphed (less so if you hold up 4+ mana/lands but if thats the case, why haven't you won :p).

On to Nature's Will. Pongo goes into this extensively about why it is ran over Druid's Repository in the primer, and I recommend you to read it. However; I can also speak a little bit on it. So Nature's Will, while you do need the correct colors, can win with as little as 3 lands and Najeela on the field with it. If you can make all 5 color's with your 3 lands, and have 2 open to attack opponents, you win. You attack with Najeela targeting P1, the token comes in attacking P2. Assuming both connect, you have 2 Nature's Will activations, allowing you to make all 5 color's. On the flip side you must be attacking with 5 creatures (or a combination of creatures/lands that allow you to make 5 mana) in order for Druid's Repository to work. The major downside of the repository is that it doesn't work on the tokens coming into play. So while it is a mana cost less, it is most times, slower than Nature's Will. Also you have the down side of losing all that mana if the repository is destroyed. Having used both (and most cards that combo with Najeela) I would actually use the Sword of Feast and Famine over the repository if you are going that route. This at least protects Najeela, and makes her beefier and easier to connect with players.

Hope this helps some. Really it all comes down to if you want this to be high power or cEDH. High power, the list is absolutely fine. Personally I think there are a few weak spots in regards to cEDH.

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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

My list is geared more towards a mid-range list, hence some of the modifications in my list vs. what the standardized Primer has listed. I'll address each of your points.
  • Faeburrow Elder - I like this card because it represents another vector to potentially go infinite that might go under-the-radar for my opponents. Sure, it's a higher CMC card for Ad Naus, but I find the mana payoff and infinite mana potential of this card to be pretty worthwhile. I think we'll agree to disagree on this one, as the playgroup that I play with sporadically is VERY grindy.
  • Ad Nauseam - a great refill card when the win conditions have been spent. Even if it only refuels me by 10-11 cards, it still refuels me by 10-11 cards to re-establish engines and a board presence. I've averaged 15/16 cards per Naus I've successfully fired off, which is perfectly fine imo.
  • Arcane Signet - yeah, this is a good point. I'll probably dig up my copy of Utopia Sprawl and replace it with that.
  • Notion Thief - with Breacher now banned, I expect a rise in Wheels and other card engines. I still want to shut them off. I'm keeping this. Also, it's randomly sold out? LOL.
  • Esper Sentinel - yup, I'm convinced. In my most recent games, the Sentinel drew upwards of 4+ cards. And I play in a pretty grindy meta. That's good value. The potential to Neoform into it is also really cool too. Probably adding this in.
  • Ancient Tomb - I have a sweet foil Zendikar Rising copy that I want to show off... but you're right. I'll probably just copy Pongo's manabase straight up.
  • Counterspell - yeah, I'll probably be cutting it. The double-blue hasn't been an issue, but it's just a little too much stack interaction than what I need.
Ok, I'll definitely argue the Nature's Will being the preferred method for an enchantment-based win, and my argument squarely (and securely imo) rests on this: you need an opponent that doesn't have blockers. And I don't know what your playgroup looks like or what the general meta looks like, but I can't recall a single game where each player HASN'T left behind a solid blocker (Urza, Tasigur, mana dork, token, whatever) whenever I've sat down for a game with Najeela. I understand why Will is better, but his argument for why it's better hinges on his basic case and advanced #1 case being easily attainable. For me, this hasn't been true and I've seen few games on YouTube channels where this isn't true. In fact, in most Najeela games that I've seen where they won, they won off of Derevi, Empyrial Tactician almost exclusively for either tapping down blockers or removing a single opponent's sole blocker (way more common imo). In the case where you can remove an opponent's single blocker that would prevent Najeela from connecting, then Repository is just as effective as Will. Sure, in a vacuum, the Repository is weaker than Will; but we don't play in a vacuum?

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Post by UnNamed1 » 2 years ago

Disagreement can be good, as it means the format isn't linear. If you can get a Faeburrow Elder to fly under the radar, good on you. I think my main gripe with Ad Naus is that I just cut it to see how life works without it. Utopia Sprawl is much better than Arcane Signet. Show off your Ancient Tomb in Golos or a similar deck that can actually make use of it. I'm not saying to copy 1for1 on mana, but its a good starting point.

Derevi is our best win-con, Bird is the way. Honestly I'm in such a meta that winning through combat is hard because people love to king-make here, making it near impossible. Unfortunately, that means a LOT of Thoracle wins. I had a T1 throracle win the other night simply because I drew Oracle on upkeep. As far as my build is going, I am working on switching the foil shocks with Expedition lands, because shiny stuff is cool.

In bringing the conversation back to Kenrith, I am really debating rebuilding my Pod list, but making it actually interactable, bringing up the power level to what I want to play at. We shall see. If I do it will be posted here...

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