Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - Coming to a cEDH table near you

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

Alright clearly broken, here is how to break him

Freed from the Real or Pemmin's Aura on any creature that can tap for any color (i.e. Blue u and Green g) can give you infinite colored mana.
This in turn can be sunk into Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy activated ability to eventually put Thrasios, Triton Hero into play and draw the rest of your deck.
If Thrasios, Triton Hero has been hated out of the game, then Gadwick, the Wizened put into play and returned by Sidisi's Faithful to then cast with infinite mana to draw your deck as a backup.

There are 8 creatures that Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura can be enchanted to give you infinite mana, as well as Paradise Mantle that you can use by just tapping Kinnan if need be.

Basalt Monolith gives you infinite colorless mana, so is a focus as a win condition as well.
But as Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy requires colored mana for his ability, so you cannot win without a mana sink.
So this is still a two card type combo. However we have a lot of quality mana sinks in the deck in Thrasios, Triton Hero, Blue Sun's Zenith, Pull from Tomorrow, Stroke of Genius, Finale of Devastation.

Thassa's Oracle is the way you actually win finally..surprise!

Because you are able to generate so much mana, early and often, there is a Stax element to the deck with Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere.
These can be enough to just slow down opponents enough so that they can't quite do everything they want. You on the other hand can easily play around them.

It cannot be understated just how much quick mana Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy offers you during the early turns.
A Mox Amber can give you uu or gg mana on Turn 2. Your ability to play out cards, while also holding up disruption is unparalleled in consistency in the early stages of the game.
Lotus Petal is 2/3 of a Black Lotus..I know not quite there, but good enough.

Because you get to dump your permanents onto the board, there are some "symmetrical" big draw cards in Timetwister and Windfall.

Also even though Thrasios, Triton Hero, Blue Sun's Zenith, Pull from Tomorrow, Stroke of Genius, Finale of Devastation are win conditions, these cards will offer plenty of card advantages individually through games, as you have access to so much mana.
Firing off a Stroke of Genius for drawing 5 cards is something to look for if needing cards.
Try to think of the deck as just not only a combo infinite mana deck, but also fast mana to get card advantages. Those draw x help to refuel your hand when you often empty them with fast mana and interaction.

Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - Ba ba ba broken

Approximate Total Cost:

HoffOccultist · Post by **HoffOccultist** » 4 years ago

The triggered ability is pretty spicy, but I have to wonder if he's enough better than other options in UG (notably Thrasios) to make him worthwhile. Might be better in the 99/8 of a heavy dork list, I dunno.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

HoffOccultist wrote: ↑
4 years ago
The triggered ability is pretty spicy, but I have to wonder if he's enough better than other options in UG (notably Thrasios) to make him worthwhile. Might be better in the 99/8 of a heavy dork list, I dunno.

I think you are underestimating the amount of mana you can produce on Turn 2 and Turn 3 compared to say a Thrasios deck.

Turn 1 - Mana dork
Turn 2 - Kinnan. Tap mana dork for gg

More busted play.
Turn 1 - Mana dork, Mox Diamond.
Turn 2 - Kinnan. Now you have 4 mana to spend on spell.

You can consistently get 6-8 mana on Turn 3, without busted starting hands, just normal play.

Just your ability to produce mana on Turn 2 given equivalent starting hands is significantly higher than literally any other deck in the format.

HoffOccultist · Post by **HoffOccultist** » 4 years ago

Oh, I don't doubt it explosively makes mana.

I just don't think the payoff is as worthwhile due to the requirement for colored mana to activate Kinnan, and the restriction to just 2 colors compared to a partner pair that gets you 3 or 4.

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen much to convince me that it's worth sacrificing color ID for this over Thrasios in the command zone.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

HoffOccultist wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Oh, I don't doubt it explosively makes mana.

I just don't think the payoff is as worthwhile due to the requirement for colored mana to activate Kinnan, and the restriction to just 2 colors compared to a partner pair that gets you 3 or 4.

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen much to convince me that it's worth sacrificing color ID for this over Thrasios in the command zone.

I mean 4 color decks with Thrasios are a totally different flavor. Flash + Hulk is the usual way to go with that, with Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact as well.

But other decks are viable, there are plenty of cEDH Simic only decks => https://cedh-decklist-database.xyz/primary.html

I guess the best example is to look at "UG Scepter" with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Thrasios, Triton Hero.
It uses Isochron Scepter/Dramatic Reversal as a way to get infinite mana.
It also uses Power Artifact + Grim Monolith for infinite colorless.
Finally it also uses Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Umbral Mantle, but you need to have drawn at least 4 cards for the turn.

So if you compare then Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy also wins with Isochron Scepter/Dramatic Reversal because you can keep activating until you put Thrasios, Triton Hero into play, doing the same thing.
Admittedly you need need nonland sources that can provide both g and u.
Instead of Kydele and Umbral Mantle, we have Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy and Basalt Monolith.
Instead of the requirement of needing to draw at least 4 cards, we need a mana sink instead.

If you can see its all sort of comparable stuff with needing to assemble cards.
However the major difference is that you have more like a Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary type commander in Green AND Blue.
Not quite the same, but actually works out about the same given how many nonland mana sources are in the deck.
So its not so much about just comboing, but how explosive your starts can be with Kinnan.
You can dump a Trinisphere on Turns 2/3, and be able to completely play around it with access to so much mana.

I get what you are saying, but I feel like its that cliché of comparing apples with oranges

Post by **WizardMN** » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Whats not in the deck?
I did give some consideration to Grand Architect + Pili-Pala as a way to generate infinite colored mana as well.
The reason is that with Urza, Lord High Artificer you could also go infinite with Pili-Pala and Kinnan as you can tap Pili-Pala for .
So that just means Pili-Pala can be combo with two cards instead.

I don't really have anything to add to the deck discussion, and I know you decided against this combo, but Pili-Pala doesn't work with Kinnan. Pili-Pala doesn't *tap* for mana; it *untaps* for mana. And Kinnan doesn't care about something untapping.

Unless you meant Urza did something there? Which is also doesn't do anything with Kinnan because his ability is also missing the tap symbol required to be considered tapping for mana.

I could be missing something of course, but I am not sure Urza or Pili-Pala are really going to do anything.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

WizardMN wrote: ↑
4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Whats not in the deck?
I did give some consideration to Grand Architect + Pili-Pala as a way to generate infinite colored mana as well.
The reason is that with Urza, Lord High Artificer you could also go infinite with Pili-Pala and Kinnan as you can tap Pili-Pala for .
So that just means Pili-Pala can be combo with two cards instead.
I don't really have anything to add to the deck discussion, and I know you decided against this combo, but Pili-Pala doesn't work with Kinnan. Pili-Pala doesn't *tap* for mana; it *untaps* for mana. And Kinnan doesn't care about something untapping.

Unless you meant Urza did something there? Which is also doesn't do anything with Kinnan because his ability is also missing the tap symbol required to be considered tapping for mana.

I could be missing something of course, but I am not sure Urza or Pili-Pala are really going to do anything.

Ahh OK. I thought I could tap a Winter Orb (for example) for uu with Kinnan and Urza in play. Not the case, thanks for the heads up. Makes sense you can still tap artifacts with Null Rod in play with Urza ability. He is the one generating the mana.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » 4 years ago

Avacyn's Pilgrim is outside your deck's color identity and Arbor Elf isn't actually enhanced by Kinnan, so I'd cut them both. I'd also consider dropping Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth - Kinnan says "nonland" and these say "the land" produces an extra mana, so they don't interact. Sadly you're running all the good stuff minus maybe Mana Vault and Grim Monolith, but alternatives are...

- Arcum's Astrolabe and Mana Cylix generate mana as if they were a signet, rather than just fix it, with a Kinnan out (and can help you generate the colors to spin Kinnan's activated ability). Prismatic Lens does too, but is a little more meh.

- Speaking of meh, there are a variety of 2 CMC rocks. Fellwar Stone, Thought Vessel, and Mind Stone are likely the best among them that aren't already in your 99. While obviously inferior to the Simic Soap, Talisman, and Arcane Signet already in your list (since they make colorless or don't reliably make your colors), they are nice with Kinnan as they are effectively free on the turn you cast them once Kinnan is out, and ramp heavily beyond there. Artifacts are also typically slightly more resilient than mana men.

- Also options are Bloom Tender, Sylvan Caryatid, Priest of Titania, and Paradise Druid - I'd consider these the best 2 CMC mana dorks although I also think they're generally inferior to rocks, being vulnerable to boardwipes and not being effectively "free" on the first turn with Kinnan.

- Circling back, Chromatic Sphere and Chromatic Star are effectively cantripping Lotus Blossoms once Kinnan is out. We're not trying to Storm Out but they may be worth consideration.

- We could also try Paradise Mantle and Springleaf Drum to effectively turn Kinnan or Thrassios into a mana dork themselves, I think I prefer Drum as it maximizes explosiveness of a perfect draw.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

Hawk wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Avacyn's Pilgrim is outside your deck's color identity and Arbor Elf isn't actually enhanced by Kinnan, so I'd cut them both. I'd also consider dropping Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth - Kinnan says "nonland" and these say "the land" produces an extra mana, so they don't interact. Sadly you're running all the good stuff minus maybe Mana Vault and Grim Monolith, but alternatives are...

- Arcum's Astrolabe and Mana Cylix generate mana as if they were a signet, rather than just fix it, with a Kinnan out (and can help you generate the colors to spin Kinnan's activated ability). Prismatic Lens does too, but is a little more meh.

- Speaking of meh, there are a variety of 2 CMC rocks. Fellwar Stone, Thought Vessel, and Mind Stone are likely the best among them that aren't already in your 99. While obviously inferior to the Simic Soap, Talisman, and Arcane Signet already in your list (since they make colorless or don't reliably make your colors), they are nice with Kinnan as they are effectively free on the turn you cast them once Kinnan is out, and ramp heavily beyond there. Artifacts are also typically slightly more resilient than mana men.

- Also options are Bloom Tender, Sylvan Caryatid, Priest of Titania, and Paradise Druid - I'd consider these the best 2 CMC mana dorks although I also think they're generally inferior to rocks, being vulnerable to boardwipes and not being effectively "free" on the first turn with Kinnan.

- Circling back, Chromatic Sphere and Chromatic Star are effectively cantripping Lotus Blossoms once Kinnan is out. We're not trying to Storm Out but they may be worth consideration.

- We could also try Paradise Mantle and Springleaf Drum to effectively turn Kinnan or Thrassios into a mana dork themselves, I think I prefer Drum as it maximizes explosiveness of a perfect draw.

Oops. I've added Fellwar Stone, Arcum's Astrolabe, Springleaf Drum, Prismatic Vista and dropped the Avacyn's Pilgrim, Wild Growth, Arcane Denial, Gaea's Cradle.

I did mention in the thread that Arbor Elf doesn't get the effect, so was aware of that, but its still a Turn 1 play, and specifically can tap to give you Blue mana basically which is important for fixing.

I added Prismatic Vista as another way to get a Snow Covered land, and the Gaea's Cradle wasn't actually that consistent with 14 creatures.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

Well as expected Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is the new flavor of the month and no 4 player pod over the last couple days I've played of has featured no less than 2 Kinnan players

Me being one of course.

But I soon realized that the real combo is Freed from the Real or Pemmin's Aura on a creature that can provide any type of mana, so that you can untap and get infinite mana as Kinnan will add an additional.
This is perfect as you can think sink the mana into Kinnan activated ability infinitely.

The problem I was finding with Basalt Monolith combo is that the mana sinks draw spells require a lot of blue, so often you didn't have enough blue mana available to combo in the same turn.
I've still got the draw spells and Basalt because the draw spells are just so good at refueling you as you can generate so much mana.

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Artaud · Post by **Artaud** » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote: ↑
4 years ago
The problem I was finding with Basalt Monolith combo is that the mana sinks draw spells require a lot of blue, so often you didn't have enough blue mana available to combo in the same turn.

Just use Walking Ballista and Trinket Mage/any fitting green spell to find it. Gemstone Array could be used to filter mana but it doesn't do anything by itself and costs to much for competitive format.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

This deck is pretty vulnerable to cursed totem already, so making your wincon vulnerable to it seems poor to me.

Would an infinite g-wave be better than one of infinite stroke/pull? Feels like it's less able to be interacted with in random ways, and all the stax pieces hitting at once prevent anyone from interacting with you (You can't really interact through trinisphere + sphere). They're there once the oracle trigger goes on the stack so no one can really do anything to it. And you presumably have infinite mana so you can afford to sandbag UUXX for oracle through trinisphere+sphere.

The monolith combo really is awkward but it's really nice that it beats cursed totem and linvala so neatly, so I'm reluctant to just give up on it, even though Kinnan is so great with freed. But in practice infinite stroke feels super awkward.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
4 years ago
This deck is pretty vulnerable to cursed totem already, so making your wincon vulnerable to it seems poor to me.

Would an infinite g-wave be better than one of infinite stroke/pull? Feels like it's less able to be interacted with in random ways, and all the stax pieces hitting at once prevent anyone from interacting with you (You can't really interact through trinisphere + sphere). They're there once the oracle trigger goes on the stack so no one can really do anything to it. And you presumably have infinite mana so you can afford to sandbag UUXX for oracle through trinisphere+sphere.

The monolith combo really is awkward but it's really nice that it beats cursed totem and linvala so neatly, so I'm reluctant to just give up on it, even though Kinnan is so great with freed. But in practice infinite stroke feels super awkward.

I guess that is a thing to think about playing around Cursed Totem more. As you say Basalt Monolith gets around it, but two of the mana sinks in Thrasios, Triton Hero and Urza, Lord High Artificer will not be options.

So their is a good argument to play at least an alternative to Urza, Lord High Artificer, say Genesis Wave as you suggested.
And it must be noted that Urza, Lord High Artificer doesn't actually produce more mana off Kinnan for tapping. But he does tap down a Winter Orb, and he does provide a some additional mana of Stax pieces, makes a Lotus Petal a Mox Sapphire and can make Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Arcum's Astrolabe tap for Blue when you need it under tight situations.
I mean its pretty small edges, I could be convinced on Wave over Urza.

I wouldn't play Genesis Wave over the instant speed draw, because of the timing of how cEDH games play out. You never want to be the one tapping out during your turn if you can help it. You always want be as patient as possible and let others put their spells onto the stack first, and let counterspells fly at things already on the stack. Then you resolve your draw spell.
If its literally Genesis Wave or Stroke of Genius resolving with infinite mana, then it just doesn't make difference.
If you are resolving a medium Genesis Wave or Stroke of Genius for say x = 4, then you actually want it to be the Stroke of Genius as it allows you to draw counterspells or removal. Much more important than permanents believe it or not in cEDH. I mean maybe you get the nuts with Genesis Wave putting combo pieces into play, but just as likely you have backup cards in hand to now protect them.

Other interesting options are Flash of Insight, Thassa's Intervention, Finale of Revelation.

The thing with this deck is that it isn't always about infinite. More often than not its just about that additional boost of mana you get, and if you can convert that into more advantages?
And this is why any x card that provides advantages are good, because they scale to how much you've managed to achieve.

I was thinking about Time Spiral or even Recurring Insight as the deck is often in that range on Turn 3.
I was going to write something in the thread about thinking about this deck as like a solid green ramp deck doing mid-range to high-range costed cards as payoffs as its more consistent at mana than almost any deck, given not "God" hands that people get.

Would I play Genesis Wave over say Thassa's Intervention? Hmm, well I think Thassa's Intervention is just more versatile than Wave, and under the conditions of infinite mana, Intervention is still going to get you the win.
Its probably getting you Mox Amber and Stroke of Genesis say to draw your deck.
But a Thassa's Intervention for 5 mana at instant speed is probably going to be better than a Genesis Wave for 5.

As far as non-Human win conditions with Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura if Cursed Totem is down then it doesn't matter that Thrasios, Triton Hero is the non-Human you are looking for as Kinnan would be shut off already.
If you just so happened to Thrasios, Triton Hero in your hand already, then is there an alternative non-Human creature that could get around Cursed Totem for a win condition?
Honestly I don't know. I imagine anything that wins is going to require that infinite mana.
Walking Ballista still requires an activation and doesn't work off putting it into play off Kinnan ability as its just a 0/0.

I'm keen to hear if anybody has a non-Human creature win condition that can win on the same turn with infinite mana and get around Cursed Totem?

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Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

It's a bit obvious and I may be missing it in your list but finale of dev is a nice outlet.

Generally agree with your thoughts on timing. Just something that occurred to me and probably loose re gwave.

If we're talking creatures that can sink infinite mana around cursed totem I'm not sure there is anything in simic. Gadwick maybe I guess?

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
4 years ago
It's a bit obvious and I may be missing it in your list but finale of dev is a nice outlet.

Generally agree with your thoughts on timing. Just something that occurred to me and probably loose re gwave.

If we're talking creatures that can sink infinite mana around cursed totem I'm not sure there is anything in simic. Gadwick maybe I guess?

Yeah the problems is that the main way of winning is via Freed from the Real and Pemmin's Aura and then using Kinnan ability to find a non-Human that will win you the game. At the moment that is Thrasios, Triton Hero. Thrasios can also win you the game with Basalt Monolith.
Unfortunately Gadwick, the Wizened or Hydroid Krasis will not win you the game off the Kinnan activation.
So you can see why Thrasios, Triton Hero is the choice.

I honestly don't think there will be another single creature that does it without needing an activation of some kind.

You could have two card combos like Leveler combined with Thassa's Oracle. But Leveler is a really dead card on its own and doesn't offer the win with Basalt Monolith.

You could play Gadwick, the Wizened and another return to hand creature. The best fits I could find are; Kami of Twisted Reflection, Quickling, Man-o'-War, Temur Sabertooth, Sidisi's Faithful.
I feel like Sidisi's Faithful would be the most cEDH playable as you can sacrifice itself to return say a Collector Ouphe when you want to combo with artifacts for only u.

But then would I just prefer to play Return to Nature in that Sidisi's Faithful if I'm trying to play around Cursed Totem?
Instant speed removal is always better, and Gadwick, the Wizened and Sidisi's Faithful just runs into Torpor Orb.
It would feel pretty bad designing the deck specifically around Cursed Totem and then Torpor Orb is in fact the hate piece.
So as you can see its always a fine balancing act.

But I am starting to talk myself into Gadwick, the Wizened and Sidisi's Faithful as additional options. After all Gadwick, the Wizened is a mana sink, does have a relevant ability, and Sidisi's Faithful is cheap interaction with opponents.
Thrasios, Triton Hero could be Swords to Plowshares out of a game so a back up does have merit.

I did have Finale of Revelation, but took it out after adding the Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura because mana sinks were less necessary to win, and it was the only sorcery X spell I had.

I'll tentatively try the following changes and see how it goes.

The Winter Orb and Back for to Basics can be situational, but the Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere have proven to be all-stars, just making sure your opponents can't quite do what they want to do.

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Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

Ahh, Kinnan's ability. Hrmmmm.

Finale of Devastation is the finale I was referring to, I think that's a pretty nice clean wincon to infinite colorless (you may not kill everyone but the likelihood you kill somebody is high.

So in my experience in CEDH most people do not play torpor orb - it doesn't shut off value engines or ramp in CEDH, just wincons, which isn't usually good enough for a stax piece. hushbringer was played a lot because it shut off hulk and oracle and nothing else did, but you should see way more cursed totems.

I'm not sure bout Badwick. Not working with Kinnan is bad. Meh.

I feel like maybe the answer is just a big fatass creature? This deck makes so much more mana than other decks that maybe it could support like a Consecrated Sphinx or Nezahal something? Meh. CEDH is so weird. You could even run something like

!!!!! Tidespout Tyrant ???

Another approach might be to play Caustic Caterpillar and Reclamation Sage which can kill either one, and then you can continue to win after that with Kinnan.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Ahh, Kinnan's ability. Hrmmmm.

Finale of Devastation is the finale I was referring to, I think that's a pretty nice clean wincon to infinite colorless (you may not kill everyone but the likelihood you kill somebody is high.

So in my experience in CEDH most people do not play torpor orb - it doesn't shut off value engines or ramp in CEDH, just wincons, which isn't usually good enough for a stax piece. hushbringer was played a lot because it shut off hulk and oracle and nothing else did, but you should see way more cursed totems.

I'm not sure bout Badwick. Not working with Kinnan is bad. Meh.

I feel like maybe the answer is just a big fatass creature? This deck makes so much more mana than other decks that maybe it could support like a Consecrated Sphinx or Nezahal something? Meh. CEDH is so weird. You could even run something like

!!!!! Tidespout Tyrant ???

Another approach might be to play Caustic Caterpillar and Reclamation Sage which can kill either one, and then you can continue to win after that with Kinnan.

Lol, Sadwick. I did use him as my win condition big draw the last game I just play, but the triple Blue is a pain. Its sooo hard to cast without holding up Blue for counterspells against opponents disruption.

Actually Green Sun's Zenith would get everything in the deck except Thassa's Oracle, Gilded Drake. Which I think is fine.

Tidespout Tyrant is a bit too conditional on having support cards, and I guess yet again the triple blue, isn't the best if looking to cast it naturally.

Interestingly I have been thinking about Nezahal, Primal Tide and Consecrated Sphinx. Not normally cards that I'd run in even 75% metas, but this is so much more of a deck that can support a Turn 3 play of them, that its been playing on my mind that I should run at least one of them.

I'll try Green Sun's Zenith and Nezahal, Primal Tide over Gadwick, the Wizened/Sidisi's Faithful and see how that feels.

TenInchRichard · Post by **TenInchRichard** » 4 years ago

Greetings,

I am new to the nexus and don't have any content posted yet, my first project will likely be a primer for my main man called 'The Basalt Bonder'. I am taking this a different direction and I would love some feedback, my problem is that my playgroup isn't all competitive, so, testing decks this competitive with them would not net any usable data.

The direction I wanted to go with Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is a bit flip-flopped; my intentions are to go for Basalt Monolith as the default plan. Freed from the Real /Pemmin's Aura are not so much plan B as nearly impossible to tutor, if either of those cards are in the opening hand I will keep them(barring a mulligan for other reasons); however, I am not about to go too far out of the way to assemble a combo that depends on flimsy dorks and their lazy(summoning sickness) ways. That again might be my weird semi-casual control oriented play group; they like to wipe the board frequently.

A link to the list is pasted below;

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-04-2 ... r-prodigy/

With flash/hulk, I don't see Kinnan breaking the competitive plane; however, now that flash is gone I think there is an upside to Kinnan over Thrasios, Triton Hero/Tymna the Weaver . Not to say Kinnan is 'better', just not all downside anymore. Being able to get the monolith by turn three for inf generic mana is nothing to sneeze at. Even without one of 16 ways to win with inf generic, I normally have four colored mana available when the basalt monolith hits, which usually nets roughly 13% to get either of the non-human mana dumps.

My theory is that there are 11 deterministic routes to the monolith and 16 deterministic routes to win immediately after + a random 13%ish chance that you win flip the wincon without any of the 16 in-hand. Also, I feel that tutoring for dorks is suicide, again with the summoning sickness and Worldly Tutor/Sylvan Tutor don't even put them in your hand, Your looking at T3 before they are usable. You better have a perfect hand or poor opposition if you expect that to win doing that.
To me, monolith method is much easier/reliable than drawing one of nine cards to get you the mana making creatures ability and one of five to get the auras to make them go inf.

I am curious about Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance . I discounted them initially because the cmc of my list is so low; land count is also insanely low. My only hangup on those two is that this list depends on a ton of 1c/0c counterspells. Have you run into issues with this or does the opponents added costs mitigate the loss in efficiency.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

TenInchRichard wrote: ↑
4 years ago
The direction I wanted to go with Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is a bit flip-flopped; my intentions are to go for Basalt Monolith as the default plan. Freed from the Real /Pemmin's Aura are not so much plan B as nearly impossible to tutor, if either of those cards are in the opening hand I will keep them(barring a mulligan for other reasons); however, I am not about to go too far out of the way to assemble a combo that depends on flimsy dorks and their lazy(summoning sickness) ways. That again might be my weird semi-casual control oriented play group; they like to wipe the board frequently.

With flash/hulk, I don't see Kinnan breaking the competitive plane; however, now that flash is gone I think there is an upside to Kinnan over Thrasios, Triton Hero/Tymna the Weaver . Not to say Kinnan is 'better', just not all downside anymore. Being able to get the monolith by turn three for inf generic mana is nothing to sneeze at. Even without one of 16 ways to win with inf generic, I normally have four colored mana available when the basalt monolith hits, which usually nets roughly 13% to get either of the non-human mana dumps.

My theory is that there are 11 deterministic routes to the monolith and 16 deterministic routes to win immediately after + a random 13%ish chance that you win flip the wincon without any of the 16 in-hand. Also, I feel that tutoring for dorks is suicide, again with the summoning sickness and Worldly Tutor/Sylvan Tutor don't even put them in your hand, Your looking at T3 before they are usable. You better have a perfect hand or poor opposition if you expect that to win doing that.
To me, monolith method is much easier/reliable than drawing one of nine cards to get you the mana making creatures ability and one of five to get the auras to make them go inf.

Hi, welcome to the forums

So my first build didn't have the Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura plan, I was 100% focused on winning with the Basalt Monolith.
This was backed up with Transmute Artifact, Fabricate, Whir of Invention.
But then of course you need a generic mana sink. So the two problems I was finding was requiring that mana sink AND casting costs of routes to victory.
Now that second part cannot be understated. The Blue mana requirements for casting cards invariable means having to wait an entire turn before you can win. Like this will happen 90% of the time.
For example you have your Basalt. You have Drift of Phantasms in hand. This costs two Blue to transmute. You want to hold up another Blue for say a Dispel so that you don't get blown out. Between casting your Basalt that you probably had to tap at least one Blue mana for, and the transmute and wanting to hold up a counter, you just end up running out of Blue mana. So you end up just using the transmute to setup for the following turn. Trust me a turn in cEDH is an eternity.

Its the same for most of your stuff like this. Merchant Scroll for Pull from Tomorrow is three Blue mana.

And same goes for tutoring for the Basalt Monolith.
Spellseeker into Transmute Artifact is three Blue mana, and you are just 90% of the time going to have to wait a turn to actually win. Its completely transparent for your opponents at this stage.

So I'll just say that since I've been playing into the Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura plan more, it is more consistent, due to fixing colors in the same turn you want to combo.
Not having to wait another turn, is normally the difference between winning and losing.
Those mana dorks might be flimsy, but they just so happen to provide uu with Kinnan in play, and this amount of additional Blue feels like you have an entire ocean worth of mana to work with when you are attempting to combo.

Btw Prophet of Distortion is a nice include, forget this card existed. Its going to go into my Zirda // Kenrith deck that you can check out in the forums as well. That deck is all about the Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith infinite mana.

I am curious about Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance . I discounted them initially because the cmc of my list is so low; land count is also insanely low. My only hangup on those two is that this list depends on a ton of 1c/0c counterspells. Have you run into issues with this or does the opponents added costs mitigate the loss in efficiency.

21 lands (I'm counting your Land Grant) is just not a reasonable number. The number of times you'll have to mulligan to ever have a keep-able hand will just mean this is pure card disadvantage, rather than card advantage which is the angle you are hoping to achieve through this.
You are not even playing the one mana Elves to help with these attempted God hands.
28 lands is the consensus lowest land count a deck should have. Trust me you can do plenty of solitaire games to figure this out as you'll mull to 4 cards a lot of games just so that you can at least cast a card.
If you want to get clever then you could try 27 lands, Land Grant and Once Upon a Time, but any lower land count and you'll on average be at least one or two cards down every game.
And Land Grant is not a freebie in cEDH, revealing your hand is a big deal.

Also your lands need more color fixing, even though you have the Back to Basics, you need to be able to cast all the cards in your hand in a timely manner, and hoping for the right mix via basics is not correct.
Command Tower, Yavimaya Coast, City of Brass, Command Tower, Mana Confluence, Tarnished Citadel, Forbidden Orchard, Gemstone Caverns.
This might seem like a lot, but you can easily play around Blood Moon type effects, and even your own Back to Basics.

The Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance have been really amazing. They are worse if you are starting behind more players, rather than going first or second. But on the play, resolving these early often is the difference between your opponents being able to win or not.
Think of them as pure gas. Sure they slow you down a bit, but you can operate so much more effectively than opponents. They are all-stars if they hit the table. It just requires more patience. Opponents can't afford to not play out cards to keep up with you AND hold up a 3 mana disruption spell (lets say they have Force of Will in hand with Trinisphere in play). So because you can keep playing out another card each turn, its going to force your opponents into a spot where they will not be able to counter your combo (on average).
I ended up cutting Back to Basics and I'm thinking about cutting Winter Orb as well, as these are just much easier to work around by opponents than the Sphere effects. I just find them a little slow to interact with opponents in some games.

Easy cuts for including the correct amount of lands are Land Grant and Everflowing Chalice.
But after that you are going to have to make some hard decisions. Can you really afford to cast a triple blue spell like Future Sight?
With more lands in the deck it gets a lot worse.
Is Scroll Rack mana investment worth the payoff?
Does Metalworker do much at all, as it doesn't go infinite with Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura? Chances are if you are revealing artifacts from your hand, that means that you have access to the mana that they can produce anyway. Actually Metalworker is an easy cut.

I do think Springleaf Drum is an upgrade to Paradise Mantle, as you have potential summoning skickness with Mantle, where as you can cast Kinnan and tap him straight away for mana with the Drum.

Paradise Druid is basically a hexproof creature, as you can cast Freed from the Real/Pemmin's Aura on it, and as long as you have an additional Blue, you can always untap it in response to removal.
That should help you with the "flimsy dork" mentality

TenInchRichard · Post by **TenInchRichard** » 4 years ago

Thank you for your fantastic response! I see what your talking about with waiting a turn for blue mana to get the sink meanwhile everyone in town knows exactly what your doing and exactly how to stop it. You were right about the lands too; the times I played vs myself or whoever I must have just been a lucky guy. Today I ran a simulation in Python to draw a few hundred million hands, than a few million more with 9 cards, after two turns kind of thing. The percentage of one land hands was just too low(even if some of them did have good mox support) and the percentage of no land hands could certainly be crippling.

The Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance have been really amazing. They are worse if you are starting behind more players, rather than going first or second. But on the play, resolving these early often is the difference between your opponents being able to win or not.

Certainly will be trying those out. Back to Basics has not been as good as I thought it would.

Does Metalworkerdo much at all

No, lol, not as much as he needs to. Metalworker was in my list for plan B, to go off with Staff of Domination in case things get exiled. It was bad. Just bad.

I do think Springleaf Drum is an upgrade to Paradise Mantle , as you have potential summoning skickness with Mantle, where as you can cast Kinnan and tap him straight away for mana with the Drum.

Springleaf drum= beautiful. I will use both tho. Paradise Mantle acts as a dork while it makes Kinnan able to be enchanted ftw. I see it as a worse Birds of Paradise that doesn't need .

Back to the playtesting. Thanks again for your input, I will regularly check your threads.

Unrelated,
That KingKenKompanion deck looks amazing, I feel like if a partner general enabled that color identity to be used with Triton hero, something might get banned.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 4 years ago

I've added more draw to the deck. I've found myself with hands that have fast mana so they are hard to pass up on the mulligan, but without an action card you are relying on top decking or hoping that opponents cast a Wheel of Fortune type effect if you don't draw one yourself.

I tried Nezahal, Primal Tide but it just felt too slow beleive it or not, so opted for Consecrated Sphinx even though it doesn't provide natural protection you tend to get a lot of draw before opponents deal with it if it actually hits the board.

90% commanders in cEDH provide card "draw" of some kind, and this is a mana commander, so you need to have more draw elements, even if you jam them and run into counterspells, I find its better to be proactive, rather than reactive as if you are using counterspells to stop your opponents resources, you normally lose that race as their decks are designed around solid draw.
I found a few games where my hand was just counterspells and removal and its not the best to be the player trying to stop what opponents are doing, as you just run out of cards.
Normally you just want to use counters to push through your own stuff if opponents look to stop you.

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darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 3 years ago

I've spent a few games where I just desperately activating Kinnan main phase in the hope of hitting Consecrated Sphinx as a way to find some action.

I've added Long-Term Plans to help with this, and of course it can set up with a combo piece as well.

I've also added back Nezahal, Primal Tide as at least it gives you some more hope of when you've hit a grindy game and use Kinnan ability main phase in the hopes of something good.

I've removed Thassa's Oracle as the way to win instead with Finale of Devastation as you can just give your creatures infinite power and haste and kill opponents. It's just another win condition with infinite mana as well.

Just removing Harabaz Druid and Drover of the Mighty as the are Human creatures, so can't get value off Kinnan hitting them.

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darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 3 years ago

Zendikar Rising has new modal spell/lands feels like a freebie with the untapped lands being able to replace basics.
Sure you can face Blood Moon and Back to Basics but this deck doesn't care about these cards with so many ways to produce mana off creatures and artifacts as well as it still plays basics.
So Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn and Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood are cards that could be used for the spell portion later on in the game.
Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood is basically the same as Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy ability although you get to go 2 cards deeper and obviously if Kinnan has been shut off provides value.

I added the Dramatic Reversal and Isochron Scepter back into the deck for another infinite mana enabler.

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