Arcades, the Strategist: Wall-Ball Combo

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Hey Moth,
I just started digesting your pile this morning. It'll take me some time, but I can say this. It seems much higher powered now. Have you played any games with it yet? Also, I'm wondering if you were allowed to break into your dad's collection for those upgrades, especially the dual lands? He he!

Your lands are a blatant upgrade! I like that you added in the Aura Shards and Rhystic Study (it will be targeted quickly), but if it stays...it's NICE!! The bulk of your changes (besides the lands) appear to be with the creatures and spells. That's what I need to digest more.

Cheers!

Unfortunately this isn't exactly my deck, I have edited and condensed both my current list and the super-powerful list into spoilers in my previous post to save space.

As well as this, I'm questioning trying to fit both Food Chain and Misthollow Griffin into the deck for yet another infinite mana combo, as now the build has Birthing Pod, which makes it stupidly easy to assemble creature based combos. For example:

1: Have both Birthing Pod and Food Chain on the battlefield.
2: Sacrifice one of the many plentiful 2CMC creatures to the pod, use it to look for Derevi, Empyrial Tactician.
3: Use Derevi's effect to untap the pod.
4: Activate the pod again, sacrificing Derevi and finding a Misthollow Griffin.
5: Sacrifice the griffin to Food Chain infinite times for infinite mana.

This all really seems quite super competitive and might be able to close down games quickly if you've got the right payoff cards for it. We might actually be able to turn Arcades into the High Tier Commander we've been trying to do for quite a while.
Again, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

(At this point I'm questioning writing my own Primer for TappedOut, just to get the deck and its ideas out there a little bit more.)

- Moth

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

Ok, a bit more time spent digesting.

Lands: I used to have more good-fetch lands and City of Brass in my deck, but I found I was pinging myself too much so I removed any fetches with some non-Bant colors (i.e. Arid Mesa and Polluted Delta.) I used them in other decks instead. I may add City of Brass back in for say Seaside Citadel.

In general, I think your current deck is an upgrade over what you had a month ago. Has it been playing better? I also think your MinMax deck would be really fun to play. I wonder how it would fair against cEDH decks, which I don't actually play against. I don't think anyone would expect Flash-Hulk in an Arcades deck so that could be an interesting surprise. I do hope you have enough Defenders though to keep the overall theme of the deck rolling. Overall, it seems like you made several upgrades on various mana dorks, lands, and tutors (from a speed perspective).

One change you might consider is making room for Lavinia, Azorius Renegade as she turns Aluren into a one-sided effect.

I'm curious about a few cards that you all are running, but I haven't had a chance to try out. So what are your thoughts on: Mulldrifter, Pull from Tomorrow, and Bane of Progress? How have they played? I wasn't so sure about Bane of Progress as it affects your board-state as well and we run some pretty useful enchantments. In your deck(s), you're running some pretty useful artifacts as well. I think that's why I liked Ben's idea of Knight of Autumn or perhaps just using Nature's Claim or Return to Dust instead as they're targeted. Shared Summons as opposed to Chord of Calling. Thoughts?

Oh yeah, have you had a chance to Armageddon folks yet? I'm really curious.

Lastly, seems like Eerie Interlude and Ghostway are really similar. Are there drawbacks to the subtle difference? I run Eerie as it was less expensive. Sorry to blast you back with so many questions, but I'd really like to know what folks that have some play experience with these cards think. As I mentioned before, I rarely get to play and when I do it's pretty much dual-Commander.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

Here we go.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Ok, a bit more time spent digesting.

Lands: I used to have more good-fetch lands and City of Brass in my deck, but I found I was pinging myself too much so I removed any fetches with some non-Bant colors (i.e. Arid Mesa and Polluted Delta.) I used them in other decks instead. I may add City of Brass back in for say Seaside Citadel.

I absolutely, beyond all shadows of a doubt, despise lands that come in tapped or slow down tempo (bounce).
Even if they are in my colours entirely, such as Seaside Citadel or bounce lands like Treva's Ruins
I had to get them out, even to the point of making my own proxies to slide over the top of my current cards so I didn't have to use them. So I did that!
On the subject of pinging, I don't really find it that bad. Over the course of a game if you're playing properly it should only be about 15 - 20 self damage, the rest of which can be protected by our legions of walls averting attacks, as they do. Of course in dual-commander this might be harder to deal with because you're at 30 life? I'm not so sure. But in 40 life games this self damage is nothing really too bad.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
In general, I think your current deck is an upgrade over what you had a month ago. Has it been playing better? I also think your MinMax deck would be really fun to play. I wonder how it would fair against cEDH decks, which I don't actually play against. I don't think anyone would expect Flash-Hulk in an Arcades deck so that could be an interesting surprise. I do hope you have enough Defenders though to keep the overall theme of the deck rolling. Overall, it seems like you made several upgrades on various mana dorks, lands, and tutors (from a speed perspective).

The deck has been playing considerably better, it's much more clean cut with all the new tutors and combos that I've slowly shoehorned in over time, as well as my own pilot experience improving. I could probably even update the tutors section of my older post to make it even better, I try and work out what to grab quickly, challenge myself with it, in a real game with real people you can't thumb over what you're going to grab for 2 minutes after all.
I actually did playtest the MinMax, obviously in a closed environment because I don't really want to take out a bank loan just yet. Consistent turn 5 and turn 4 comboing off as long as I keep a relatively good hand. It's truly a monster, unfortunately a monster that sits in my sweetest of dreams for now.
The Flash-Hulk addition was just a little idea I had when I was thinking of ways to speed up the mana plan, grabbing an Axebane Guardian, Overgrown Battlement, Portcullis Vine and a Shield Sphere is a cool

boardstate to have by turn 2.
I've found the defender amount not to be entirely lacking, but might also be a little low. Cards are just too good to cut, you know what I mean?

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
One change you might consider is making room for Lavinia, Azorius Renegade as she turns Aluren into a one-sided effect.

I did try and keep Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, but I never ended up getting her when Aluren was out, or visa versa. Giving the Aluren ability to everyone has never really stopped me, seeing as I only play it when I'm guaranteed to win if it's not stopped.
It's one of those priority cards, but I protect it in my hand, patiently, like a Counterspell, until the time is right.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
I'm curious about a few cards that you all are running, but I haven't had a chance to try out. So what are your thoughts on: Mulldrifter, Pull from Tomorrow, and Bane of Progress? How have they played? I wasn't so sure about Bane of Progress as it affects your board-state as well and we run some pretty useful enchantments. In your deck(s), you're running some pretty useful artifacts as well. I think that's why I liked Ben's idea of Knight of Autumn or perhaps just using Nature's Claim or Return to Dust instead as they're targeted. Shared Summons as opposed to Chord of Calling. Thoughts?

Here we are, the meat and potatoes.

Mulldrifter

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Mulldrifter.
The draw 2 is nice, but I've found it to be quite the drag due to the high CMC. Possibly even on a high cutting probability, especially if I wanna be fitting Food Chain and Misthollow Griffin in the deck... somehow!
It's also a payoff card, the kinda thing you wanna be finding if you've got a Flengine (Flicker Engine) set up. Taking these out of the deck is a bad idea - I'm not scared, however.

The fish also acts as a top cap to the median of cards you can evolve over time with the new allstar, Birthing Pod. Before you get into the tasty 6 drops anyway.

Pull from Tomorrow

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Pull from Tomorrow.
I was thinking about this just today, wondering whether a Windfall would be better placed in this slot. Pull from Tomorrow however has treated me nicely, the instant speed is good to sink a bunch of mana into on the end step before your own. It's also amazing as a payoff card if you've got infinite mana, drawing your entire deck immediately. It can also be grabbed with Muddle the Mixture, the transmute of which isn't an issue if you've got infinite mana.

Bane of Progress

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Bane of Progress.
The big daddy himself. I like to play him because he's scary as hell and everyone who is everyone is running at least a few mana rocks that you can turn into dust and swing back at them. It's more of a play you make when you're a little behind, nothing important out, nothing to lose. You'd be surprised how often this happens too.
A fantastic top end to a Birthing Pod, nice to grab when the Enchantment lock player is getting a little too big for their boots and you wanna cut them down to size.
Of course, the card isn't perfect, it's not for all metas, it blows up your stuff, but I find it highly useful as a sort of 'sideboardy' option.

Targeted Artifact Removal

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Knight of Autumn, Nature's Claim, Return to Dust.
I still run my copy of Knight of Autumn for this reason, however I wish I had an Aura Shards to swap her out with, as I mainly use her for the removal anyway. As for the other spells, I do like them, especially Krosan Grip, which can't be countered innately, but I find them to be dead draws if all I'm targeting with them is someone's Fellwar Stone. Hopefully that's understandable. I simply prefer the Shards and wide removal of the Bane.
That's my inner Timmy screaming out at you.

Shared Summons

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Shared Summons.
I find myself needing two creatures to go off at points, sometimes I need a Spellseeker to find me an Enlightened Tutor so I can grab a combo piece, but it's also nice to find an Axebane Guardian if I have 3 defenders out or a Faeburrow Elder/Bloom Tender at the same time to support the mana I'd need for the next turn.
The CMC of the spell is nothing to laugh at, though, Chord of Calling would probably be far cheaper in most cases, as well as putting the cards right down on the field as well.
I do find a personal joy in making infinite mana and using Shared Summons to grab a Shield Sphere and Temur Sabertooth, OR a Jeskai Barricade and Shrieking Drake to do some ridiculous Flengine magic. As long as I have the Intruder Alarm out, of course!
Also I own a Shared Summons, I don't have a Chord.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Oh yeah, have you had a chance to Armageddon folks yet? I'm really curious.

I have and boy, it was marvellous. Closed out the game soon after that point, of course. I don't like to leave folks waiting.
You haven't felt pure pleasure like making infinite mana out of dorks, hitting the board with an Armageddon, followed by a Cyclonic Rift, (Overloaded of course) and comboing off just afterwards, milling everyone out.
Call me evil, but I think it might only be an addition for someone trying to be a little devilish with their Arcades innocence - which is something I fully utilise.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Lastly, seems like Eerie Interlude and Ghostway are really similar. Are there drawbacks to the subtle difference? I run Eerie as it was less expensive. Sorry to blast you back with so many questions, but I'd really like to know what folks that have some play experience with these cards think. As I mentioned before, I rarely get to play and when I do it's pretty much dual-Commander.

I picked Ghostway because I like to attach Lightning Greaves to important things and Eerie Interlude has that awkward word "target" printed on it. Ghostway doesn't target and therefore also doesn't have this issue.
As well as this, it's rare that I would use an effect like on Ghostway not in reaction to a wipe or as some sort of draw spell on the end step before my own, so the fact it exiles all creatures I control compared to just ones I'd target, (I would probably target everything anyway) is moot. Still triggers Reveillark, still works with me.
You could also take this completely over the top and run a Teferi's Protection instead, which is a fun idea.

Don't apologise for asking questions, friend. We're in this together, besides, it gives me something to do and something to chew over in my free time.
Thank you!

- Moth

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

Dude @[mention]Moth[/mention] Thanks for the amazing response!! SUPER appreciated!

Yeah, I may put City of Brass or one of the good fetches back in (I may have one to spare). Life total in duel is definitely more of concern and you were about right that it's in the 15-20 range which hurts my cause more in my current format situation.

I do find it hard to cut cards here and there once I've established a deck and played it a few times. In my case, I may cut a few of the following: Stalwart Shield-Bearers, Venser, the Sojourner, Ghostly Flicker, Knight of Autumn, Duplicant, Guardian Project, and Venser, Shaper Savant. You've given me a few ideas to try out. Thanks!!

I see your point about Lavinia. I've had her out with Aluren and it was very helpful. Note. I do like your addition of Grand Abolisher. I just broke up my Teysa, Orzhov Scion EDH deck and may put it into Arcades. I like when my spells can't be countered on my turn.

I'm leaning towards Pull from Tomorrow, Bane of Progress, and possibly trying out Flash-Hulk. As for your Defender count, Wall of Stolen Identity could be a useful if you're looking for that one additional wall.

Muchos Gracias Amigo!

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

I've sold a few cards on Cardsphere recently to build up a pot of money to purchase the remaining cards I desire for an Ayara EDH deck. Then, I realized I'd have some extra funds. I put in an 80% bid for a NM Teferi's Protection this morning and someone's already committed to selling me theirs. Pretty sweet!!! I'm going to try that angle. In the end, it'll run me $31.55. An exchange rate calculator tells me that's 24.58 pounds sterling (which I can't find in the MS Character Map). I'm excited to try it out. Thanks for the ideas Moth.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

Four games today:

Game 1: Win
Normal comboing-off using an Intruder Alarm I held in my hand the entire game, Shared Summonsing into both an Axebane Guardian and Temur Sabertooth, then Mystical Tutoring into an Eladamri's Call on the nearest end step. Crashing Drawbridge already on the battlefield.
Having just enough mana to cast the Alarm and the Axebane on the same turn, I could tap the Axebane for 3 after giving it haste, using Eladamri's to find a Shield Sphere and untap my Axebane.
Tap the Axebane for 4, cast the Sabertooth, untap Axebane, start the Flengine using Sabertooth and Sphere.
GG EZ.

Game 2: Loss
Don't keep a hand with just a Plains and a Sol Ring. There's no guarantee that you'll draw another land.
However, if this land is a Forest and you've got a viable mana dork, you can try and go in on it. Just know that if your dork gets pinged off, you'll taste it. It tastes bad.

Game 3: Win
A beatdown win using walls and tutoring with an Eladamri's into a Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive. You'd be surprised how easy it is to kill people when you're holding up 17 unblockable damage every single turn.
Notably, the Eladamri's Call was a topdeck, which I predicted, before promptly being asked what the next lottery numbers are.
25, 36, 07, 14, 28, 03, 49. Good luck.

Game 4: Win
Another combo win, this time by utilising the Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal combo with a Faeburrow Elder down.
After Birthing Poding from a Mulldrifter into a Consecrated Sphinx, I found myself drawing both a Spellseeker and a Muddle the Mixture from the massive card advantage. The only issue then was to get the mana to transmute one and cast the other to get my pieces, then cast the Scepter, then activate the Scepter on the same turn.
This resulted in me needing a total of 10 mana in a single turn, of which I had exactly... 9 mana.
I grabbed all my pieces, but instead of playing the Scepter onto a board and risking it getting blown out, instead I had a plan! I used the Spellseeker I played to get my Dramatic Reversal with the Birthing Pod, grabbing none other than Profaner of the Dead and sacrificing my own Sphinx to it. (RIP, my sweet baby...)

However, this ensured the field was cleared of creatures, as there was nothing higher than 5 toughness my opponents controlled at the time, leaving me relatively safe to live another day turn and execute my combo. Using an Eladamri's in hand and also a Drift of Phantasms to grab both a wall and an active card for a Flengine.

A successful evening, if I say so myself!

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
I've sold a few cards on Cardsphere recently to build up a pot of money to purchase the remaining cards I desire for an Ayara EDH deck. Then, I realized I'd have some extra funds. I put in an 80% bid for a NM Teferi's Protection this morning and someone's already committed to selling me theirs. Pretty sweet!!! I'm going to try that angle. In the end, it'll run me $31.55. An exchange rate calculator tells me that's 24.58 pounds sterling (which I can't find in the MS Character Map). I'm excited to try it out. Thanks for the ideas Moth.

Now I made a small blunder with my statement, Teferi's Protection doesn't actually activate any ETB or LTB triggers, as it Phases the permanents, which is something completely different. However, the card is extremely useful as an Ultrabuffed-up Fog to survive anything your opponents use, so even without the benefits of ETB and LTB it is still an absolutely fabulous card.
It's gotta hold that price tag for some reason, hasn't it? Hopefully that hasn't ruined any of your plans.

- Moth

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

Well shoot. That's a bummer. He he!!! However, I've actually been wanting a Teferi's Protection for awhile anyway. It'll work nicely in my Tuvasa the Sunlit EDH deck.

Yeah, I like Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive and having an unblockable element to my Arcades deck. I saw that you didn't include it in your MinMax version. I like that you won one of your four games that way. I've realized over the last several months that I don't like linear or single-element strategies that much. I like having multiple ways to win. So, I don't want to run Arcades solely as a combo deck as I'd eventually get bored of tutoring for cards X, Y, and Z...then GG. In that regard, I think I may actually keep Venser, the Sojourner in the deck too for his unblockable creatures ability (well, all three abilities actually). But, I like the Flash-Hulk idea so that I still plan to add. I'll still try to combo out as well, but at least I'll keep the option of winning different ways. My Varina, Lich Queen deck is very much multifaceted and I dedicatedly follow that forum here at the Nexus as well, but I've never commented. They call that Varina build: Mid-Range. Is that MTG jargon for multiple ways to win? Or, is there a more proper MTG synonym for that style of EDH build? I'd actually like to know so I can research other commanders that fit that bill. Have any suggestions? (I've also been struggling with my Tuvasa build as Voltron is pretty linear. Hmmm...that new Teferi's will still come in handy there or somewhere else eventually.)

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

You do you, is all I can say there. Variety is the spice of life - but winning is fun too!

Midrange means something along the lines of reaction based gameplay, the middle between aggro and control. You can hold up a boardstate and counter things, but you don't have the benefits of normal aggressive gameplay, nor the massive stalling of heavy countering.
As far as I know, there is no synonym for lots of ways to win, most builds are multifaceted by design. It is 100 cards after all!
Boredom is inevitable, that's why I've got two decklists for Arcades, this combo, and a more beatdown oriented Budget build.

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

Ahh. That definition makes sense. Thanks.

pufflex · Post by **pufflex** » 4 years ago

Hey Moth,

I have been super busy with work lately but the deck new list looks like a definite upgrade. Good to see others are enjoying Arcades as much as I have in the past. I was thinking of adding scroll rack into the deck and cutting Sylvan Library. Just wondered what you thoughts were on this.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

pufflex wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Hey Moth,

I have been super busy with work lately but the deck new list looks like a definite upgrade. Good to see others are enjoying Arcades as much as I have in the past. I was thinking of adding scroll rack into the deck and cutting Sylvan Library. Just wondered what you thoughts were on this.

Each card has its own merits, it's a weird selection from what I can assume, so instead of doing my basic explanation, I'll write up a quick comparison.
Sylvan Library
Scroll Rack

CMC

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Possibly the most important part of both cards, which is great, because they're both 2 mana. Unfortunately Library still does need one green to be casted, so take this into account. However if you're running Llanowar Elves or any excessive level of mana dorks then that's completely fine.

Usage

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So we can take a look at this from the start of a game.

Starting hand with Library, saying you draw a card on your first turn and play a land every turn, the earliest you can get a Library out is by turn two if you aren't using some sort of expensive Moxen, such as Mox Diamond.

Turn One, you go from 7 cards to 8 on the draw, then down to 7 for your land and possibly even 6 for a cheap dork.
Up to 7 again for your draw on turn Two, down to 6 for land, and down to 5 when you can finally play your Library.
It's now turn Three, you've dug 4 cards deep, assisted by your Library, and you can choose to keep 2 for the payment of life.

Starting hand with Scroll Rack, saying you draw a card on your first turn and play a land every turn, the earliest you can get a Rack out is by turn one.

Turn One, you go from 7 cards to 8 on the draw, then down to 7 for your land and then 6 to play a Sol Ring. You can then play Scroll Rack with Sol Ring mana. 5 cards.
Turn Two, draw, 6 cards, and if you activate Scroll Rack immediately you get to dig 6 deep.
In total you would have dug 8 cards deep.

This is the point where the choices between Library and Rack thin out a bit, as Library goes ahead and fills your hand slowly, the Rack replaces every card with a new one and puts your hand on top of your deck. This does however put certain cards out of play, if you needed a combo piece and had to drop one, you might be out of luck.

This is also where Scroll Rack benefits, you can effectively dump a bad hand for a fresh, new one, and using a fetch you can recycle all the dud cards away for a nice new draw next turn, possibly even using Scroll Rack again and digging even deeper. Sylvan Library doesn't have this benefit, but it is a constant mana-less option to use that will let you dig progressively deeper for pieces you might need over time.

Notably, Scroll Rack isn't as effective later on in the game where you have an average smaller hand size than the beginning of a game, whereas Sylvan Library is equally as effective at all times.
As well as this, Magic as a whole has more 'Destroy target Artifact' cards over 'Destroy target Enchantment' ones as a simple search of Gatherer showed to me, so the chances of your Library getting destroyed through the effects of a spell are lesser than that of your Scroll Rack getting destroyed, this however may be a negligible difference depending on your meta.

From this little bit of analysis, it's obvious that Scroll Rack is the better choice of the two, but you would highly benefit from trying to find space for both, I can't speak much for using either in my deck, I haven't got the money for that but my usage of the cards outside of paper Magic has been quite good both for Scroll Rack and Sylvan Library.
Also I find that you forget Scroll Rack is on the board after a while, whereas people will likely remind you of your Sylvan Library trigger, especially if it benefits them in some way. (Such as one Nekusar, the Mindrazer player I was with. That damage adds up! (Important to note also, Scroll Rack just gives you the cards, you don't 'draw' them, so you won't be taking 7 damage from a Nekusar, Underworld Dreams or Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted if you choose to activate it with a full, yet disappointing grip. As well as this, Sylvan Library is a 'may' ability, so don't feel too obliged to pick up those cards if you're having a bad time.))

I hoped this helped your decision somewhat!

- Moth

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

Moth wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Boredom is inevitable, that's why I've got two decklists for Arcades, this combo, and a more beatdown oriented Budget build.

Curious, do you lean towards one build style more than the other for sheer enjoyment?

My friend and I managed to play an Arcades vs Varina game recently. Arcades crushed it with an Aluren, Lavinia, Cloudstone, Tetsuko, and Crashing Drawbridge boardstate. I basically kept returning a Wall of Omens to my hand to draw more cards and lay down more creatures (mostly walls) for me. Swung with lethal unblockable damage. Arcades plays out super fast in 1v1. I'd love to test it out in multiplayer, but that's not my fate these days. Don't have enough time. Someday. Either way, I appreciate being able to chat on these forums. Y'all are teaching me a lot. Much appreciated!! (I liked the Scroll Rack and Sylvan Library discussion. I have a Nekusar deck as well, so that was particularly interesting to read.)

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago

Moth wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Boredom is inevitable, that's why I've got two decklists for Arcades, this combo, and a more beatdown oriented Budget build.
Curious, do you lean towards one build style more than the other for sheer enjoyment?

I lean towards the combo build because I'd rather absolutely destroy someone and watch them weep over just beating them down normally.
The beatdown build is more for when I wanna be 'friendly' and cool down my deck to make it more 'fair' for other players.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
4 years ago
(I liked the Scroll Rack and Sylvan Library discussion. I have a Nekusar deck as well, so that was particularly interesting to read.)

Thank you, I put a little effort in there and I don't think I was quite on topic the entire time, but I do think I made some good points that would tweak a decision either way.

Also I crushed in games today, went off with Isochron Scepter twice and beat someone to death in the meantime trying to gather all the pieces. It really is quite the deck.

- Moth

Post by **benjameenbear** » 4 years ago

I think that Arcades is innocuous enough that it should fly under the radar a good portion of the time to enable a beatdown to actually occur. I'm curious as to what you find yourself doing with infinite mana via the Scepter, [mention]Moth[/mention]. It seems to be working for you even though there isn't an easy outlet in the Command Zone.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
I think that Arcades is innocuous enough that it should fly under the radar a good portion of the time to enable a beatdown to actually occur. I'm curious as to what you find yourself doing with infinite mana via the Scepter, [mention]Moth[/mention]. It seems to be working for you even though there isn't an easy outlet in the Command Zone.

This is possibly because of all the coveralls I've put in to make sure I have something to do when I get an infinite mana combo online. Sometimes it's a miss, sure, bad beats, most of the time I have the ability to get something that will help however.
(And it's far better than immediately being the archenemy by running Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tymna the Weaver)
For example:

Payoffs (So I don't destroy the forum page with too much space being taken up by one post)

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Playing Arcades, the Strategist over and over if it gets removed - not that removing the general is what you'd be doing in an IsoRev combo, you'd remove the manadork, but it's a benefit.

Using Muddle the Mixture - one of the pieces to gather the IsoRev combo and recurable with Mnemonic Wall, go figure - to find a Pull From Tomorrow or a Finale of Devastation.
With the former you draw your entire library (and discard one) holding up infinite mana, with the latter you mash the X cost into something like 10K and then go grab a Profaner of the Dead. Use Profaner to sac a meaningless wall and remove all opposing creatures, then swing in for super lethal.

Just running a Quicksilver Wall. This card is great for the combo, you can get it with a Drift of Phantasms too!

With all this infinite mana stuff, the text on Aluren has changed to me somewhat. It effectively gives you infinite mana as long as you are only playing creatures that cost 3 or less - so that means if you have that mana by other means a Cloudstone Curio can help you go off equally as well as Aluren could without the drawback of your opponents being able to use the ability as well.

Intruder Alarm and Wall of Kelp is a nice way to get infinite draw with Arcades out, but also infinite little walls to dance with if you're feeling alone.

Obviously you've got your classic Beast Within into Reality Shift into Cyclonic Rift infinite recur combo that you need the infinite mana to pull off.

Shrieking Drake and Jeskai Barricade also combos off with infinite mana OR an Aluren out by proccing each other with their ETB effects and drawing infinite cards through Arcades. Important to note that you do need the Arcades out, which Aluren might not be able to help you with later on, but IsoRev can.

I was thinking of replacing Pull from Tomorrow with a copy of Blue Sun's Zenith. BSZ may cost one more mana, but then you can use it as a viable wincon on a single target if you're floating infinite - also if you use it with an empty library of your own you can simply flicker a wall or even play a wall from your hand to get it back, killing another player. Do that once more and you've won.

Infinite recurring with Reveillark, Sun Titan, Reflector Mage, Wall of Lost Thoughts and Aura Shards to control the battlefield, mill everyone out or simply bring all your stuff back after someone goes and Wrath of God's it away because you're getting too strong for them to feel safe.

Using Birthing Pod to sac a 2CMC whatever into a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, untap your Pod, sac the Derevi into it and then grab a Temur Sabertooth. Using the Sabertooth and your infinite mana you can then infinite recur whatever you like, be it an Eternal Witness to put your graveyard into your hand, or just having a draw bounce-gine using Arcades and a wall.
How helpful that most of our curve sits at the 2CMC range too!

Im sure there's plenty more ways to go off, but these are all the ones I had in my head for now.

Hopefully that cleared it up for you somewhat.

- Moth

Post by **benjameenbear** » 4 years ago

Good list of outlets. It seems like the cEDH meta has (as I long suspected it would) moved towards a more mid-range style of play. Fast combo decks aren't eating up the meta anymore and even Flash Hulk decks are becoming more conservative in executing their lines. At least, this is what I've gathered from the cEDH FB page and the Labmaniacs.com site, so this is an admittedly small sample size of research.

In other news, there's now an official, Pure Bant way to Flash Hulk now. Nomads en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist + Thassa's Oracle is all the rage now in the cEDH scene, and for good reason. It's a compact line that even has 1 CMC available for a protection creature like Mausoleum Wanderer or Sylvan Safekeeper and it's SUPER hard to counter a triggered ability. Maybe Trickbind will become a thing again.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Good list of outlets. It seems like the cEDH meta has (as I long suspected it would) moved towards a more mid-range style of play. Fast combo decks aren't eating up the meta anymore and even Flash Hulk decks are becoming more conservative in executing their lines. At least, this is what I've gathered from the cEDH FB page and the Labmaniacs.com site, so this is an admittedly small sample size of research.

To be completely honest with you, I'm not really in any cEDH groups - I don't get much EDH played at all actually. I should go out more and share the word of Combo-Cades among the peasants. Having a Flash Hulk package in here might be quite fantastic, but I'd have to think about swapping Mystical for Worldly to get more consistency out of grabbing the Hulk. Muddle can go get the Flash anyway.

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
In other news, there's now an official, Pure Bant way to Flash Hulk now. Nomads en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist + Thassa's Oracle is all the rage now in the cEDH scene, and for good reason. It's a compact line that even has 1 CMC available for a protection creature like Mausoleum Wanderer or Sylvan Safekeeper and it's SUPER hard to counter a triggered ability. Maybe Trickbind will become a thing again.

This took me a while to comprehend but once I got it, oh god it's so smart. I saw that new Oracle and I was wondering how it could be broken, well, here we are I suppose! The extra CMC to get defence is also quite tasty, I'd think about it if I wanted to make an even deadlier version of Arcades, yet it seems better in Chulane or some other Bant commander because of Arcades having such a foundation on defender tribal.

If anything, it's nice to see you back in here. Would be good to hear your opinion on how the deck has turned out and improved over time! I'll post my deck list below so you can take a look and compare.

Moth's Combo-Cades Decklist - 12/01/2020

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Decklist

- - - - Mainboard - - - -

- - - - Maybeboard - - - -

Enchantment (2)

1x Pemmin's Aura
1x Sylvan Library

Creature (2)

1x Academy Rector
1x Deadeye Navigator

Instant (1)

1x Blue Sun's Zenith

Artifact (1)

1x Scroll Rack

Approximate Total Cost:

- Moth

Post by **benjameenbear** » 4 years ago

Not necessarily. I think, by having Arcades be your Commander, that you'd get less flak at a random table for being a Hulk player because no one expects Arcades to be a Flash Hulk deck. Something to consider is that Arcades enables a very awesome card advantage engine and beat-down plan which makes Flash-Hulking a nice Plan B/Plan C option.

You have a great list, [mention]Moth[/mention]. I can't say that I'd make any changes to your list except maybe streamlining your land-base somewhat and maybe adding another infinite mana outlet for Dramatic Scepter. Deadeye might be a good choice here, but it could also be total dead weight.

I'll have to tinker with a Bant list for a Flash Hulk line and see if there's a way to make it work.

Great discussion on this thread btw.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Not necessarily. I think, by having Arcades be your Commander, that you'd get less flak at a random table for being a Hulk player because no one expects Arcades to be a Flash Hulk deck. Something to consider is that Arcades enables a very awesome card advantage engine and beat-down plan which makes Flash-Hulking a nice Plan B/Plan C option.

The entire drive of running this deck in such a fashion for me is that you're generally under the radar at all times, slowly building up an army and drawing cards that your opponents think are just more walls. Sliding a Flash Hulk in would make it all incredibly devilish, but I fear it would put this deck at a real cEDH standpoint, which makes it far better to be on this specific board granted, but I'd like to pry away from it as not to fall too far into the pit of Spike Superiority.
I'll refer back to a previous analogy I made on another forum: "On the topic of Lab Man and Jace, they just seem a little overplayed. If I draw out my entire library I should be winning regardless - might as well do it in a flashy 'royal flush' way as opposed to a trashy 'ace-high' way."
This won't stop me making a decklist though! Take out Bane of Progress, Mulldrifter, Consecrated Sphinx, Sun Titan and Reveillark to slam in those five other cards (Flash, Hulk and the three combo pieces) to turn on the combo and there you go. Probably some low efficiency swaps and there could be better choices but taking out higher CMC cards would probably be best.

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
You have a great list, [mention]Moth[/mention]. I can't say that I'd make any changes to your list except maybe streamlining your land-base somewhat and maybe adding another infinite mana outlet for Dramatic Scepter. Deadeye might be a good choice here, but it could also be total dead weight.

Thank you for the compliment! I'd probably be putting something like Pemmin's or Deadeye as a trade for Mulldrifter or Bane of Progress, as my current meta is less reliant on artifacts and enchantments - in fact I'm one of the only people who uses them!

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
I'll have to tinker with a Bant list for a Flash Hulk line and see if there's a way to make it work.

Great discussion on this thread btw.

Would be nice to see what you can make, I've been a fan of your work before. I actually built your Kaalia build and found out it was a little too powerful for my tastes, put it up for sale.

I've tried to make good discussion with the other people here, they've got a lot to say and a lot of improvements to make. Here's hoping for some classy walls / defenders in upcoming sets for us to use and abuse!

- Moth

Post by **benjameenbear** » 4 years ago

[mention]Moth[/mention] Thanks for the compliments on my Kaalia list. That list has been refined through EXTENSIVE cEDH play and is, quite frankly, one of the more brutal decks I've played against. Nearly everyone who plays against it underestimates it G1 and then targets her relentlessly afterwards. Saying that building it was too strong for your playgroup gives me perverse pleasure, heh...

So, if I had to create a Flash Hulk list for pure Bant list helmed by our friend Arcades, I think it would look something like this:

cEDH Arcades Flash Hulk

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Decklist

Commander

1 Arcades, the Strategist

Combo Pieces (8)

1 Nomads en-Kor

1 Cephalid Illusionist

1 Flash

1 Aluren

Mana Sources (15)

1 Chrome Mox

1 Mana Crypt

1 Sol Ring

1 Overgrown Battlement

1 Ulvenwald Captive

1 Axebane Guardian

1 Faeburrow Elder

Counterspells (8)

1 Swan Song

1 Mana Drain

1 Disallow

Tutors (9)

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Worldly Tutor

1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Finale of Devastation

1 Eladamri's Call

1 Spellseeker

1 Drift of Phantasms

1 Chord of Calling

1 Wargate

Removal (8)

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Aura Shards

1 Profaner of the Dead

Card Draw/Utility (20)

1 Wall of Lost Thoughts

1 Stalwart Shield-Bearers

Lands (31)

1 Brushland

1 Tundra

1 Savannah

1 Bountiful Promenade

1 Forest

1 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Island

1 Island

1 Plains

Approximate Total Cost:

The list still has 20+ defenders, a decent suite of countermagic, a heavy tutor list, and a decent amount of Card Draw. It still retains the Aluren, Cloudstone, and Intruder Alarm combos while incorporating the Flash Hulk package. I realized that Thing in the Ice is actually a pretty cool way to Board Wipe and return Defender creatures to my hand while being a Defender creature itself.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
[mention]Moth[/mention] Thanks for the compliments on my Kaalia list. That list has been refined through EXTENSIVE cEDH play and is, quite frankly, one of the more brutal decks I've played against. Nearly everyone who plays against it underestimates it G1 and then targets her relentlessly afterwards. Saying that building it was too strong for your playgroup gives me perverse pleasure, heh...

It was just far too powerful for me to want to use, the amount of sad faces and angry responses I get from many of the cards that are simply cheated out was delicious - yet I didn't exactly want to lose friends or be the archenemy every fight. From it however, I took my copy of Grand Abolisher and Armageddon. The former is just good, the latter is my hidden delight.

benjameenbear wrote: ↑
4 years ago
So, if I had to create a Flash Hulk list for pure Bant list helmed by our friend Arcades, I think it would look something like this:

cEDH Arcades Flash Hulk
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Decklist

Commander

1 Arcades, the Strategist

Combo Pieces (8)

1 Nomads en-Kor

1 Cephalid Illusionist

1 Thassa's Oracle

1 Flash

1 Protean Hulk

1 Intruder Alarm

1 Cloudstone Curio

1 Aluren

Mana Sources (15)

1 Chrome Mox

1 Mana Crypt

1 Sol Ring

1 Carpet of Flowers

1 Noble Hierarch

1 Birds of Paradise

1 Avacyn's Pilgrim

1 Bloom Tender

1 Sylvan Caryatid

1 Vine Trellis

1 Wall of Roots

1 Overgrown Battlement

1 Ulvenwald Captive

1 Axebane Guardian

1 Faeburrow Elder

Counterspells (8)

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Mausoleum Wanderer

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Mana Drain

1 Counterspell

1 Disallow

1 Force of Will

Tutors (9)

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Worldly Tutor

1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Finale of Devastation

1 Eladamri's Call

1 Spellseeker

1 Drift of Phantasms

1 Chord of Calling

1 Wargate

Removal (8)

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Nature's Claim

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Reality Shift

1 Thing in the Ice

1 Beast Within

1 Aura Shards

1 Profaner of the Dead

Card Draw/Utility (20)

1 Shield Sphere

1 Portcullis Vine

1 Traproot Kami

1 Mystic Remora

1 Shrieking Drake

1 Wall of Blossoms

1 Orator of Ojutai

1 Sunscape Familiar

1 Jeskai Barricade

1 Wall of Omens

1 Wall of Kelp

1 Wall of Shards

1 Wall of Lost Thoughts

1 Stalwart Shield-Bearers

1 Sylvan Library

1 Carven Caryatid

1 Quicksilver Wall

1 Eternal Witness

1 Temur Sabertooth

1 Mnemonic Wall

Lands (31)

1 Command Tower

1 Mana Confluence

1 City of Brass

1 Gaea's Cradle

1 Flooded Strand

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Windswept Heath

1 Polluted Delta

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Yavimaya Coast

1 Brushland

1 Adarkar Wastes

1 Tundra

1 Savannah

1 Tropical Island

1 Breeding Pool

1 Temple Garden

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Sea of Clouds

1 Bountiful Promenade

1 Horizon Canopy

1 Waterlogged Grove

1 Glacial Fortress

1 Sunpetal Grove

1 Hinterland Harbor

1 Forest

1 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Island

1 Island

1 Plains

Approximate Total Cost:

The list still has 20+ defenders, a decent suite of countermagic, a heavy tutor list, and a decent amount of Card Draw. It still retains the Aluren, Cloudstone, and Intruder Alarm combos while incorporating the Flash Hulk package. I realized that Thing in the Ice is actually a pretty cool way to Board Wipe and return Defender creatures to my hand while being a Defender creature itself.

Now this is incredibly quick and tasty, as underwhelming as a typical Arcades build in the shell of something you'd see at a tournament. I appreciate your fast thinking as well, and I see you spied and enjoyed some of the additions I made to the deck over time too, such as Shrieking Drake. I'll have to put this together sometime in paper and see how effective it is!

On the topic of Thing in the Ice too, I forgot this card was a defender! That seems like an amazing addition to the current deck as a giant bomb drop but also to return everything to get drawing cards over and over again! Might be a sweet swap-out for Mulldrifter but I have to remember to cast spells that aren't creatures. The price-tag is still quite offensive too, but not nearly as offensive as pieces I yet don't have, such as Bloom Tender or Worldly Tutor.

Thank you again!

- Moth

Post by **benjameenbear** » 4 years ago

Shrieking Drake is definitely a great adaptation since it helps Aluren go off faster and more consistently without needing Cloudstone Curio.

Bloom Tender got stupid expensive over time. I'm pretty confident that they'll reprint it at some point, so hang on?

Moth · Post by **Moth** » 4 years ago

@pufflex
@Benjameenbear
@ChocoDude

I apologise for the effective Call to Arms, but the thread has been stagnating for a while now and I was wondering if anyone had any more experience with the deck, any new musings or information and I'm posting just to be a general callback for the Arcades boys.
Looking forward to hearing from you all!

- Moth

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 4 years ago

Well, not much has changed on my front. I did add in the Flash-Hulk package a couple months ago and only got to use it once. Then last week I noticed that Archidekt had a HUGE red halo around Flash with an error message saying that it wasn't legal in Commander. Verified! So, I dropped that package and added in Venser, the Sojourner again and Tree of Redemption. I like Venser! The tree I'm not so sure about. But for now, I'll play with them again. Thing in the Ice sounds cool, but I only have 13 instants and sorceries in my build, so I'm not sure that's enough to support flipping well. Also, it's price has come down a fair bit.

What have you swapped in to replace Flash-Hulk?

Post by **benjameenbear** » 4 years ago

I think that I would update my above list to something that looks more like this. The Flash Hulk package was 5 cards in the deck which opens up quite a bit of space. And I think the Oracle is still a decent inclusion because it's a clean win condition when the Wall-Ball turn is firing off while being a decent source of card selection in the early game for land drops.

cEDH Arcades Flash Hulk

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Decklist

Commander

1 Arcades, the Strategist

Combo Pieces (5)

1 Thassa's Oracle

1 Intruder Alarm

1 Cloudstone Curio

1 Freed from the Real

1 Aluren

Mana Sources (16)

1 Chrome Mox

1 Mana Crypt

1 Sol Ring

1 Overgrown Battlement

Counterspells (9)

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Veil of Summer

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Delay

1 Mana Drain

1 Counterspell

1 Disallow

1 Force of Will

Tutors (8)

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Worldly Tutor

1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Finale of Devastation

1 Eladamri's Call

1 Drift of Phantasms

1 Chord of Calling

1 Wargate

Removal (8)

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Aura Shards

1 Profaner of the Dead

Card Draw/Utility (22)

1 Wall of Lost Thoughts

1 Stalwart Shield-Bearers

1 Chulane, Teller of Tales

Lands (31)

1 Brushland

1 Tundra

1 Savannah

1 Bountiful Promenade

1 Forest

1 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Island

1 Island

1 Plains

Approximate Total Cost:

TL;dr The changes I would make is to cut the Flash Hulk package, Mnemonic Wall, and Spellseeker to add in Veil of Summer, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Delay, Smothering Tithe, Resolute Watchdog, and Freed from the Real.

Freed from the Real opens up more infinite mana opportunities with Bloom Tender, Axebane Guardian, Faeburrow Elder, and Incubation Druid. Chulane is another engine for the Wall-Ball turn and also combos with a decently high defender count + Intruder Alarm to go infinite as well. S. Tithe is just awesome with all the draw-7's in cEDH and Veil of Summer and Delay act as additional counterspells/protection pieces when we are ready to combo off. I also squeezed in Collector Ouphe because mana rocks need to be shut down whenever possible.

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