Zacama, Primal Calamity - Naya "Hide Tide" Storm

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

So with that new land that goes infinite with Zacama, do you guys think there might be a control-based build for this deck that tries to just drop lands on the board and finish without doublers later in the game?

Feels like Zacama is basically 9: destroy 3 things, most of the time, and you could just use her as removal spells and a ghostly prison effect in the command zone, and also a combo outlet.

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

limlimrevolution wrote:
4 years ago
I was absolutely delighted by this spoiler season. Truly the gods were generous to Zacama.

Both the cards that you mentioned are slam dunk auto-includes into the deck. I can't wait to slot them in.

Your comment about Academy Rector made me take a look at your tutor list and I had a question. You have Enlightened Tutor and Academy Rector as enchantment tutors. Looking at the Theros card list, they have reprinted Idyllic Tutor, which is a card I had previously considered, but did not run because of budget reasons. But now that it's been reprinted, I'm considering it. Would you run that over either of the other two options or in addition to? The mana cost seems trivial and going into your hand is strictly better than the top of your library, though obviously Enlightened Tutor can be played at the end step of the player before you.
I do play Idyllic Tutor in my Ephara, God of the Polis deck, so I'm not sure why I'm so adverse to playing it in this deck. After all it can also get you Greater Good, which is all the card draw you need.
I do have quite a few games where I don't cast Idyllic Tutor in my Ephara build and it ends up sitting in my hand, but that is only when I've drawn what I need anyway.
I should give it a try. Can only test right to figure out if it's good or not?
I also see that you dropped Commune with Lava from your primer list. I guess that it didn't perform well for you? I've enjoyed having it as a setup card for the combo turn. Say I have a decent amount of lands in play and I have one of the expensive mana doublers in hand (such as Regal Behemoth). I don't want to tap out and play him, because chances are decent that someone can hit me and take Monarch. So I'll pass turn, burn my mana on Commune with Lava before the start of my next turn, and hopefully flip over one of the 3 mana doublers and be ready to go off. But I totally understand if it didn't quite work out that way for you in your games.
I can't say that I mentally knew how to play this card well. Like I guess I never drew it in a way that I was afforded the luxury of casting before my turn as a setup. More like I drew it as part of comboing and then it was always a secondary option to the other type of draw cards. So I'm not saying it couldn't be good, but maybe my lack of experience with it, didn't make for the best.
Lastly, I know you've mentioned Veil of Summer in one of your other comments, so I'm curious why you choose to play a single Pyroblast as your only dedicated anti-counterspell card. Grand Abolisher and Dosan the Falling Leaf count too, I know.

The reason I ask is because I've noticed that the two of the worst things that can happen to Zacama are him being counterspelled (which prevents the untap trigger) or taken control of (because often it's hard to get him back since we sort of depend on him to take care of most problem permanents, so our actual main deck removal is sparse). Veil of Summer has been a very key card in preventing both of those effects.

Anyways, thank you again for the deck and all of the excellent descriptions and explanations. This is still my favorite EDH deck in my collection!
I mean really if I'm playing Pyroblast then it indicates what I used to coming up against, and certainly counter magic is the bane of my existence :P
So yeah I should be playing Veil of Summer for sure.

I'll just cut down on the higher end mana ramp and see how that goes.

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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

I'm assuming that Nyxbloom Ancient makes the deck, hands down. It's such a gratuitously EDH card and it's phenomenal with Zacama.

Also, since the deck has a decent amount of land ramp, have you considered adding in Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle along with Dryad of the Elysian Grove? The Dryad adds more land drops, fixes any mana issues you may have (super unlikely), and turns on Valakut to gain incidental damage. Oh, and Elvish Reclaimer so you can find the Commander-to-hand land.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago



I did a massive amount of theory-crafting around Underworld Breach yesterday and wrote an entire article covering most color combinations which you can check out here.

I used this primer and my Will & Rowan Kenrith as case studies to show how Underworld Breach can become a powerful tool for decks.
If you want to read my thought processes on the Zacama decks then please go to that thread and at the end there is a section "Example Case Studies" and you'll find the Zacama part there.

These are the conclusion and following changes I've made to the decks.
Primer Remove




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Post by warbhorgl » 3 years ago

With new spoilers out, any chance you will be analyzing some of the cards? For ex: Fiery Emancipation

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

warbhorgl wrote:
3 years ago
With new spoilers out, any chance you will be analyzing some of the cards? For ex: Fiery Emancipation
I'm always keeping an eye out for new cards, but its so hard to break into this particular build of deck as they have to do something special.
They need to be mana doublers..(or triplers thx Nyxbloom Ancient), or massive draw cards to really have a chance of taking a slot.
Any land ramp that is efficient as well, but WotC haven't printed a 2 mana land ramp in quite some time.

There wasn't really anything in Ikoria or Commander 2020 for this deck in my opinion.
Zirda, the Dawnwaker in the 99 to along side Grim Monolith and including Basalt Monolith is a consideration given that Mana Reflection and Nyxbloom Ancient combo with the Monoliths as well.
But infinite colorless mana is a bit more narrow for comboing, so I decided against it.

Fiery Emancipation is a very potent card, but I don't see a need for it.
The budget build however has a lot of haste elements with lands (Flamekin Village, Hanweir Battlements, Slayers' Stronghold) so you could just cast Zacama and then attack for 27 trample damage. Blow up any blockers that wouldn't allow you to get the 21 damage in. So you could lean on it to get rid of at least one opponent in a voltron alpha strike.

So far there has been nothing I've thought of from Core 2021 for the deck, but hopefully something might crop up before spoilers are done :)

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Post by warbhorgl » 3 years ago

Thanks for the detailed reply and insight - totally understand now!

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Ashaya, Soul of the Wild presents a very interesting dynamic to the deck potentially. The fact that to optimize Zacama you really want 9 lands in play, Ashaya creates a way to have more lands in play by just turning your creatures into Forests.
You get all the benefits of land doublers as well, and even the ones that are specific to Forest type in Vernal Bloom, Keeper of Progenitus, Nissa, Who Shakes the World, Caged Sun.
There are 18 creatures in the deck at the moment, which isn't a lot, but still the idea of gaining so much value off them in this alternative way is really appealing.

I've created a deck list with Ashaya, Soul of the Wild as the commander which you can check out here for other potential interactions.
A very tempting one is with Quirion Ranger for infinite mana with a mana doubler. Because Quirion Ranger would itself be a Forest with Ashaya in play, you can return itself to hand to untap another creature which is a Forest. You can keep casting the Quirion Ranger and you have a mana left over and also get around the "once per turn" because it's a new creature when you cast it each time.
However Quirion Ranger on it's own in this deck is very limited really. It's not often that you want to return normal lands to hand and the only creatures worth untapping are Arbor Elf, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Dryad Arbor. So not quite good enough on it's own in this particular deck.

Valakut Exploration is a good way to get value with the number of land searches in the deck. Between the 11 fetchlands and 8 spell land searches you can dig for value quite a bit during turns.

The new modal spell/lands are super interesting for a deck that wants to play out lands and also have a good number of spells to make use of the mana.
But with land types, especially Forest being important to the deck (with mana doublers) I have to take stock of this.
These are the ones that interest me for the deck;
Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood
Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary
Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass
Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge

One of the other things that you can look to do is use the bounce lands in Boros Garrison, Gruul Turf, Selesnya Sanctuary to actually return the modal spell/land back to hand so that you can then use it for the spell portion if needing action.
Given this at the moment I want to try Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood. Putting any of the mana doubler creatures into play off it is exactly where you want to be at.

Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge is the next most interesting as it allows you to filter to find cards that you want for that stage of the game. Unfortunately another tapped land makes it harder to justify.
But there is definitely an argument for it with the bounce lands as I mentioned to allow you to play it early for the mana and then later on get use out of it as a spell.


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Post by TheMrBigShot96 » 3 years ago

First of all love the primer. Formatted really well. But ive read it multiple times over and can't figure out how it's supposed to win? I'm sure I'm missing something but I cant figure it out.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

TheMrBigShot96 wrote:
3 years ago
First of all love the primer. Formatted really well. But ive read it multiple times over and can't figure out how it's supposed to win? I'm sure I'm missing something but I cant figure it out.
It's all about the untap and the mana doublers. Zacama, Primal Calamity's untap ability in combination with all the mana doublers allows you to pretty much lightning bolt everyone and (you cannot target players) everything to death. You use the draw spells to sac Zacama to recast his untap and do it all over again. Also, Zacama is a 9/9 so he can actually swing for lethal commander damage in a few turns when buffed.

Not to mention, his removal ability can really lockdown your opponents since they can't keep any relevent permanents in play.
Last edited by RowanKeltizar 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

As a quick clarification, you can't use Zacama, Primal Calamity's 3 damage ability to kill players sadly, but it should give you a nice clean board state to constantly swing into your opponents with infinite life.

The actual infinite win con is to keep recasting Zacama with a string of draw effects until you've drawn most of your library. Then, you cast Finale of Devastation with X = bajillion into an empty board. Other Zacama lists have used Shivan Gorge to infinitely untap it with Zacama's ability and funnel the infinite mana into that land and Shock opponents to death.

You could be really hilarious and add Aetherflux Reservoir to your deck so that you can say your Giant 3-Headed Dino Activates the Death Star to Kill Your Opponents. Totally respectable!

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

TheMrBigShot96 wrote:
3 years ago
First of all love the primer. Formatted really well. But ive read it multiple times over and can't figure out how it's supposed to win? I'm sure I'm missing something but I cant figure it out.
Hey thank you. I used to have a specialized "win condition" at most times and that has changed between various things. I can see where the confusion lies in that I have taken out cards but failed to update the primer to really explain redundancy of needing "win conditions" in favor of just simply overwhelming opponents. There is a Finale of Devastation as benjameenbear mentioned for an actual way to deal lethal damage in a single turn.
I will definitely add a section on "How to win" just so it is clear :)

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

Oops, thanks for the correction.

Yes, I like the idea of using Shivan Gorge since there are so many good land tutors in green. Crop Rotation is the main one that comes to mind since it's an instant and puts the land directly into play untapped. Lands are also pretty hard to remove. You can use High Market to sac Zacama repeatadly.

Am I right in thinking you only need one mana doubler to go infinite with Zacama? If so that is a pretty compact win con. One mana doubler and those 2 combo lands. or Shivan Gorge and any repeatable sac outlet. Of course, I see that the more doublers you have in play the less lands you need which means earlier wins.

I don't know if I'm thinking about this correctly, but it seems to me you could drop a few spells for more tutors to reliably get those specific cards into play. I'm talking about more enchantment tutors and any-land tutors.

Doesn't seem like you need the big draw spells as much if you can reliably get lethal damage on board without drawing your library. The ultimate goal here being to reduce your average cmc.

What you need to combo out:

One or several mana doublers and enough mana to cast Zacama
Repeatable sac outlet OR bounce effect: You could also use something like Ashnod's Altar here as well since it generates further mana.
Damage outlet: I really like Shivan Gorge because it plays into Zacama's ability and is pretty easily tutorable but you could also use something like Impact Tremors since the enchantment tutors can grab it.
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago



Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is a great new land for the deck as it means that for the purposes of Vernal Bloom, Keeper of Progenitus, Nissa, Who Shakes the World and Caged Sun you can get additional mana off what are normally non-Forest lands. Now there are not many of these because I specifically designed the deck this way but it is still nice to put utility lands and get the benefits still from these mana doublers.
I have added Crop Rotation to the deck as a way to get Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth (or other lands) so there is a little bit more consistency with having it in play.



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Post by Phfat_John » 2 years ago

Hi darrenhabib, I just joined to post and say thanks for still updating this primer for new potential cards! I've only recently put this deck together as I cracked a Zacama from a pack ages ago and never understood why it was worth so much. Looking forward to finally giving the deck a go!

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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

Phfat_John wrote:
2 years ago
Hi darrenhabib, I just joined to post and say thanks for still updating this primer for new potential cards! I've only recently put this deck together as I cracked a Zacama from a pack ages ago and never understood why it was worth so much. Looking forward to finally giving the deck a go!
It's one of those types of decks where it's quite hard for new cards to make there way in. But I like to give new cards a go. Hope you have fun!

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Post by limlimrevolution » 2 years ago

Checking in again with a card that also seems tailor-made for Zacama: Imposing Grandeur. Unless I'm reading it totally wrong, this is a strictly better Wheel effect that nets you 9 cards, while giving much less to your opponents. To me, this seems around the same level as Reforge the Soul or Memory Jar, which are pretty critical to the deck.

Also, I've combed through the card pool of Kamigawa Neon Dynasty a few times and it only seems like there are only a handful of cards that seem worth considering for Zacama at this time:
  1. Kura, the Boundless Sky could be fun since it can search for any 3 lands and you can sacrifice it with Greater Good or Momentous Fall, but I think it's a little too much work to justify the inclusion. Also, the 3 lands only go into your hand instead of into play, so it's not even ramping you.
  2. Shigeki, Jukai Visionary is a mini-ramp and recursion package, which I could see being useful during combo-turns potentially. You can just pop him back into your hand and vacuum up any combo pieces you need to re-use. Very durdly and slow though.
  3. Boseiju, Who Endures is just a stupidly good card and it's hard to argue against having a copy in literally any green deck.
As always, thanks for the primer and the inspiration to build this deck!

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Post by darrenhabib » 11 months ago

It's been a minute since I made changes, but I did a comprehensive break down last night.

Invasion of Ikoria can search for Dryad Arbor for 2 mana and the only Human in the deck is Grand Abolisher.

Shigeki, Jukai Visionary has been so impressive in my other decks and happy to replace Underworld Breach for graveyard retrieval but it is also land ramp.

Awaken the Woods is great to up your threshold of lands.

Reprieve hasn't been printed yet, but thought I'd make people aware that it's the sort of surprise card I like.

Swapped out the basics for Snow-Covered and added Winter's Night.


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Post by darrenhabib » 10 months ago

Open the Way is an excellent new ramp card that scales and good with potentially getting key non-basic lands which can be so important with this deck, even if it's obviously random.


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Post by darrenhabib » 10 months ago

Big draw cards come in few-and-far between in Naya, so Last March of the Ents is a powerhouse to this strategy.
I decided to remove Caged Sun just because it's the only artifact to this strategy, therefore exposing it to more hate than just creature and enchantment removal for the mana doublers.

ADD
Last March of the Ents

REMOVE
Caged Sun

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 8 months ago

darrenhabib wrote:
11 months ago
Swapped out the basics for Snow-Covered and added Winter's Night.
This is exactly the kind of niche card that I like to see get used. Perfect for the deck I think!

I have a Gishath deck that has some overlap but just trying to do the normal aggro game. As such I'm usually looking to cast Gishath by turn 4 o 5. Wins don't happen until turn 6-8 typically.

I'm actually curious as to why you aren't running a Scroll Rack . Seems like it could help cycle a bad draw in combination with land fetches if you are digging for something. Sensei's Divining Top is a bit similar but maybe less impactful in this deck. What are your thoughts?
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Post by darrenhabib » 8 months ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
8 months ago
I'm actually curious as to why you aren't running a Scroll Rack . Seems like it could help cycle a bad draw in combination with land fetches if you are digging for something. Sensei's Divining Top is a bit similar but maybe less impactful in this deck. What are your thoughts?
There are a lot of search cards, so you could sculpt pretty well. I guess because the deck really is designed around redundancy, so you are not looking for special singleton cards.
One good thing about the deck is that it doesn't care about artifact removal or Null Rod type effects.
I don't have any top of library matters cards like Oracle of Mul Daya, so this is another reason I haven't thought of these.
Obviously Gishath, Sun's Avatar with Scroll Rack is amazing.

I could see a configuration that had Land Tax with Scroll Rack.
I might be assessing it wrong, certainly the sequence of game is; 1) Land ramp 2) Mana Doublers 3) Draw.
So using Scroll Rack to swap too many of the others to try and get more land ramp is a thing early game.
But you can never have enough mana doublers or draw .. lol.

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Post by limlimrevolution » 2 months ago

Loving the most recent update!

Have you considered Up the Beanstalk in your build? I have found it to be invaluable. It allows you to draw your deck once you start chaining Zacama, Primal Calamity + Sanctum of Eternity, but it is also just a great early play that cantrips and generates a ton of card advantage. My current iteration of the deck runs 17 cards with MV>5 that will trigger it. The other players in the pod always groan when it resolves and it's hilarious when they burn enchantment removal just to get rid of an enchantment that has already drawn me a card.

I've also managed to squeeze Delighted Halfling into the deck. Ramp + anti-counterspell tech is great, plus you can always dump it to Natural Order if needed.

Lastly, I managed to finally find a copy of Cavern of Souls for yet more protection against counterspells (can't have enough ways to stymie the blue players).

Here's my latest iteration: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/o1xvTE0SmkG6ijXQ1RNYVw

As always, thank you for the inspiration for the deck!

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