Zada: Grinding up an Arcane Storm

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Post by Toshi » 2 years ago

So, aside from Bloodthirsty Adversary, what's everyone's opinion on the other zadaesque cards in the upcoming sets?

I mean, Ardent Elementalist as a red Archaeomancer seems like a staple, doesn't it? Crazy with copy spells.
Neonate's Rush is yet another nuts damage based spell. One that could draw us a ton - or kill ourselves. Honestly, with Boiling Blood being on top of my possible cut list since forever, this won't find its way into my deck either.
I might like Raze the Effigy more than i probably should. But i have been running Fury Charm since forever, since i like synergy cards that can double as removal. So i ask myself if it is good enough even without trample.
Last, but not least, i will absolutely run Stolen Vitality! First strike is as good as it gets to both block and keep your board. Trample is obviously crucial for lethal swings and there are several tricks with boosted toughness. Me gusta.

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Toshi wrote:
2 years ago
I mean, Ardent Elementalist as a red Archaeomancer seems like a staple, doesn't it? Crazy with copy spells.
I mean, I like that it's 4mv whereas most red ones are 5mv (Anarchist) or 6mv. But you still have to have mana to cast them. For most of the cantrips and stuff it's probably not going to beat Goblin Dark-Dwellers, but it could be fun with the Arcane package... but at that point we should already be going off quite well.
Toshi wrote:
2 years ago
Last, but not least, i will absolutely run Stolen Vitality! First strike is as good as it gets to both block and keep your board. Trample is obviously crucial for lethal swings and there are several tricks with boosted toughness. Me gusta.
That one seems good. I wasn't running many trample enablers myself before, but this is probably a good one (I think Temur Battle Rage was the only one previusly).
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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

@Crazy Monkey where can we see your final Zada deck list with all your updates from the final sets?

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Post by x1372 » 2 years ago

There will never be a FINAL zada deck list, her power will only grow as magic introduces more red cantrips.

Ardent Elementalist probably won't make this guide due to potential infinite combos, even if it is a better version of Anarchist and Revolutionist.

I'm personally favoring Goblin Dark-Dwellers over Bloodthirsty Adversary , though I'm focusing a bit more on goblin tribal so I admit at least some bias.

I'm not super excited by the pumps/cantrips this set. Lunar Frenzy is a nice trample enabler and mana sink pump, it's just a shame it doesn't cantrip or boost toughness. Raze the Effigy is a pump option that might be nice for the optional artifact destruction, and at least is a step up from Infuriate. Stolen Vitality is a pump that I might add to my deck, though I'm not 100% sure what to cut. Neonate's Rush is ... a worse Zap if you need more of that.

Actually, a few of these cards might be helpful for a pauper deck if nothing else. At least one guy at my LGS showed interest in that sort of a game, so I will probably be looking into making a pauper Zada of my own. If anyone has a decklist for that, please give me a link, I'd be very interested to see what people have done to make that work for Zada.

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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

@Crazy Monkey have you tried the 0 mv creatures?
Ornithopter, memnite,, Kobolds, etc. I assume they would be cheap bodies and easily increase your storming on winning turns.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

@Scout_800 Regarding your first post, The only swap I have at 'testing' in the paper list that's not in the primer is the swap for Breya's Apprentice. Otherwise, the list is what I have in the primer post. I'll probably finalize that swap in my changelog when I do the update for Midnight Hunt (hopefully this weekend). I agree that this deck is never really "finished", but this is one of my more stable decks between strategy, theme, color, and power limits.

I'd definitely include Ardent Elementalist if I didn't have the no-infinite restriction, but it needs to get into the options list for recursion. It's best-in-slot outside that restriction. I'm never going to recommend Neonate's Rush, because it directly damages us for each creature. It's the cantrip version of First Volley for the arcane package, and has a heavy drawback.

Regarding 0 MV creatures, I tested those in the early deck brainstorming phase (I think it's all still on the decks page on mtgsalvation.com). The metric that I started focus on at that stage was a combination of creatures per card and creatures per MV. The logic was that we want to get the maximum increase in creatures for investment in deck space and mana. While 0 cost creatures are great at small increases in creature count for 0 mana investment, the cost in deck space is much higher.

I spent the first several years playing this deck advocating for the use of Thatcher Revolt as (at the time) one of the most creatures/card efficient cards available. It's nowhere near good enough anymore, but I believe the comparison showcases the difference in these two metrics.

So let's compare thatcher revolt, or it's upgrade Hordeling Outburst, to Memnite. Early game (before Zada first cantrip), I would argue that both hordling outburst and thatcher's revolt are better than memnite. This is because both of them nearly enable critical mass by themselves. This increases the odds of a hand/mulligan with a cantrip also reaching critical mass for cantrips, which we need to get the deck running. The best case scenario is if these 0 MV creatures are drawn early in the storm turn, when mana resources are tighter. In those cases, they would be more efficient than some other options if they don't generate multiple creatures or generate some other advantage.

I think the most important statistic to keep in mind is that each additional creature increases your odds of success by around 6%. As the deck tries to chain cards together, I generally think that a card making 2+ creatures will outperform a card that makes a single creature. This means that the available slots that 0 MV creatures compete with are space made by dropping the arcane package, or cards like Spikeshot Elder or Runaway Steam-Kin, which perform additional roles to being a creature to count.

EDIT: regarding a full pauper list, my group hasn't played pauper EDH in months at this point. I may draft up and post a pauper Zada here just as a reference, but I won't be able to play it much and judge how effective it is. I can try to make some time for that, but it will likely be more an opportunity to brainstorm than an actual decklist. I've only built pauper decks to focus on the effects which are missing among commons: board wipes and efficient recursion or engines, so I'm not sure I could judge it well just with goldfishing. I suspect a pauper Zada would focus on setting up pump, and lethal Fireballs by drawing into large rituals.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

Thank you, always appreciate your detailed explanations.
What is the infinite combo with ardent elementalist? Is it with reality scrabble?
I really enjoy your deck and follow your updates religiously, always curious as to when/why you make changes to the deck.
Also, while checking your actual deck list, I noticed you were at 101 cards in the deck…
Cheers

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
What is the infinite combo with ardent elementalist? Is it with reality scrabble?
Probably easier with Twinflame / Heat Shimmer making more Elementalists and then also getting back Arcane cards to splice Desperate Ritual on and then it's self-sustaining.
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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

@Crazy Monkey
What would you take out of your list for ardent elementalist?

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

Probably Path of Anger's Flame or Chancellor of the Forge. Both of those are primarily inclusions that make large, non-infinite damage calculations and could be replaced by recursion on a cantrip, ritual, or token creator.

Recurring Heat Shimmer or Infuriate for the same end result at lower mana value is why I'd answer on those two. Of the two, PoAF is the less generally good card, while dropping Chancellor helps reduce mana costs.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

@Crazy Monkey
I'm not sure I understand how a spliced Overblaze works. When you splice into another arcane spell, does Overblaze's effect have to target Zada? Therefore each creature gets targeted by a single copy?
Does only the original arcane spell target zada and the splice part is free to target any creature (all copies targeting a mogg fanatic).
From what I understand you would need 6 copies of the spell to kill a player with 40 life points?

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
@Crazy Monkey
I'm not sure I understand how a spliced Overblaze works. When you splice into another arcane spell, does Overblaze's effect have to target Zada? Therefore each creature gets targeted by a single copy?
Does only the original arcane spell target zada and the splice part is free to target any creature (all copies targeting a mogg fanatic).
From what I understand you would need 6 copies of the spell to kill a player with 40 life points?
The way that splicing works is that you cast the main spell and reveal the ones you want to splice into it and pay those costs. After doing so, the main spell on the stack has the rules text of the main spell plus the ones you spliced onto it, in the order you chose. Zada, Hedron Grinder will only trigger if she's the only target of that whole spell, so if you for example cast Unnatural Speed and splice Overblaze onto it, on the stack it reads like...
Target creature gains haste until end of turn.

Each time target permanent would deal damage to a creature or player this turn, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead.
... and while you could target two different creatures, Zada will only copy it to each creature you control if she's designated for both.

So you won't be able to get the several copies of Overblaze onto a Mogg Fanatic that easily. This is part of why some lists with the arcane package run several arcane spells for splicing onto and why recasting from graveyard (keeping Overblaze in hand to splice onto them all over again) is part of it, too. You also have things like Twinflame and Heat Shimmer to make additional Fanatics so they maybe only need 4 instances of Overblaze (16 damage) each. Both of those if cast twice each could make a total of 16 Fanatics and then you only need 2 instances of Overblaze (4 damage) each to do 64 damage.

In my list, I preferred Spikeshot Elder, though. Even +1/+0 stood in for an instance of Overblaze and if I was capable of going off at all to take somebody out then I probably had enough mana for at least 1rr if not more.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

@lyonhaert is entirely correct here on needing to only target Zada with all available targets when splicing. I've added a short blurb on that the to arcane section of first post for clarity. On the topic of Mogg Fanatic versus Spikeshot Elder; why not both? They're both 1 mana and non-threatening enough that they can run out on turn 1-2 to increase the creature count.

I will admit that, as a wincon, elder is more repeatable, works with more than just overblaze, and generally at that stage of storm we have the mana for it. Mogg fanatic is just much funnier to me.

After much procrastinating, it's time for the Innistrad: Moonlight Hunt set review
Recommended Inclusions
  • Bloodthirsty Adversary: Solid competition with Goblin Dark-Dwellers for recursion. Initial testing indicates that it won't stay in my list, but it's definitely a solid card. I may re-test swapping for Past in Flames to make sure I gave it a fair chance.
  • Ardent Elementalist: This is a lower mana cost recursion card which can enable infinite combos by looping Heat Shimmer while also being a common. Any Zada deck which does not intentionally exclude infinites can and should run this card. It's just that good.
Not Recommended, but Possible Considerations
  • Stolen Vitality: Just a generally solid pump spell if you need it. the turn check make it solid for offense and, if you need it; defensive blocking. Surprise first strike is potent.
  • Raze the Effigy: If timing restricted pump fits into your version of Zada, this card adds flexibility and removal options.
Not Considered, Do Not Include
  • Neonate's Rush: This card will directly deal you damage for each creature you control. It looks similar to Rile at first glance, but is definitely not.
changelog
Approximate Total Cost:

This changelog reflects the testing I've done with Breya's apprentice. As expected, I didn't find a drawback for the swap. I also have apparently been playing 101 cards, despite me counting the cards in my deck on a semi-regular basis. After much flip-flopping I eventually decided to drop Rush of Adrenaline as I continue to trim my pump spells which are not multipurpose scrytrips or learntrips. That said, I'm probably 2 games of being bricked by Enthusiastic Study away from that being the cut instead.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by x1372 » 2 years ago

Thanks for the update, Crazy Monkey. I had thought of Ardent Elementalist as a possible slot in, not as a must-have. I'd already bought a copy, but now I'm definitely trying to figure out where to put it into my deck.

That said, I've gotten a few good solid games in over the last month or so, and I'm absolutely loving the deck so far. With one amusing exception (An opponent with Dream Halls and a Consecrated Sphinx in play managed to repeatedly disrupt the critical turn... and cast 5 extra turn spells himself during it) it's managed to win the game each time it's "gone off." That said, I'm starting to question the value of the scrytrips, particularly Inordinate Rage . So far, it's felt as though I either couldn't afford the mana to play them early, or didn't need them anymore once I'd gotten going. Similarly, in the last game I was excited to add Possibility Storm into the mix on the storm turn, but did not find a point between "I can't afford the mana to play this yet" and "It's still relevant to play this" to use it. Have I just been lucky so far, or are these card I should experiment with cutting?

As for Sudden Breakthrough, which was mentioned earlier, I would definitely recommend it as a possibility in the guide. As far as my play so far has gone, it's been a Battle Hymn with upside so far. I've had two wins where it was the card necessary to push me over into the second loop of playing creatures and drawing, so I'm happy with it so far.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

x1372 wrote:
2 years ago
Thanks for the update, Crazy Monkey. I had thought of Ardent Elementalist as a possible slot in, not as a must-have. I'd already bought a copy, but now I'm definitely trying to figure out where to put it into my deck.
The way I think about it is that elementalist is better that the worse instant/sorcery in the deck. It should enable you to spend otherwise limited resources like cantrips and rituals more freely when getting set up. If you aren't limiting to noninfinite, I'd always trade out Chancellor of the Forge for Ardent Elementalist. For the same amount of mana you can Heat Shimmer once, and while the rate of growth is not impressive; it is also not limited in number of iterations.
x1372 wrote:
2 years ago
That said, I'm starting to question the value of the scrytrips, particularly Inordinate Rage. So far, it's felt as though I either couldn't afford the mana to play them early, or didn't need them anymore once I'd gotten going. Similarly, in the last game I was excited to add Possibility Storm into the mix on the storm turn, but did not find a point between "I can't afford the mana to play this yet" and "It's still relevant to play this" to use it. Have I just been lucky so far, or are these card I should experiment with cutting?
The scrytrips that I currently run operate in a dual purpose manner; cards and power/toughness. The toughness specifically is a support for multiple other cards, but I'm going to focus on Rile because it is better (any) card advantage while also pressuring the deck to include the cards like Inordinate Rage. If there were another 2-3 copies of 2 CMC cantrips with no upside/minor downside like Stun, I think that the deck could somewhat safely drop most/all of the scrytrips that pump. Until that is the case, I find that the scrytrips are good enough keep at critical mass of cantrips.

If the main issue is the cost on Inordinate Rage scrytriping, you could try swapping to Storm Strike or Chaotic Strike for either lower cost or a full cantrip. Alternatively, swapping it out for Rush of Adrenaline will reduce your cantrip-to-cantrip draw probability by about 3% but have more lower cost pump spell. You could also try elementalist in this slot, because picking up Crimson Wisps to reuse will always draw you more cards than Inordinate Rage.

I really enjoy possibility storm as a spell that you can use if you're playing more slowly, but due to how tight mana can be on storm turns, it's only ever in play if it was cast on a previous turn. I had exactly the same issues as you describe, and as powerful as it can be I had to drop it from my deck. It is absolutely powerful disruption of our opponent's plan without really being a problem for Zada, so you could include it as 'storm protection'. However, by the time that you have that much mana, a knowledgeable opponent would have tried to disrupt you already. Basically, play it if your deck runs more slowly or you just enjoy the effect. I don't think it's efficient enough otherwise.

I'm going to retry with testing Sudden Breakthrough along with Bloodthirsty Adversary. I felt like I had enough mana-engine creatures that I don't need the extra ritual, but having more Battle Hymns is good.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by x1372 » 2 years ago

Well, it's not the cantrip I was hoping for, but Manaform Hellkite is a backup Young Pyromancer .

For my own current deck, I think I'm gonna be taking out Mirrorwing Dragon , Possibility Storm , and Inordinate Rage , Bringing in Ardent Elementalist , Stolen Vitality , and one of either Spikeshot Elder or Mana Geyser, though I think that slot will become Manaform Hellkite should the card not end up too expensive.

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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

What do we think of mana echoes, considering we create a substantial amount of creatures every turn? I know it isn't red mana but still…maybe if we had some way to filter the colourless mana

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Post by Toshi » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
What do we think of mana echoes, considering we create a substantial amount of creatures every turn? I know it isn't red mana but still…maybe if we had some way to filter the colourless mana
What a coincidence that you brought up Mana Echoes, since i did get one off a trade recently and did plug it into my build! Unfortunately i haven't been able to get a round in since then...

Initially i thought of putting it into my Grenzo, Dungeon Warden deck, but a quick analysis of creature types made me scrap it and look for a better deck for it. Enter Zada, Hedron Grinder.
8/13 of my token generators generate Goblins, with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame, Forbidden Friendship, Spawning Breath, Tempt with Vengeance and Young Pyromancer being the non-Goblin ones. So, aside from Forbidden Friendship they should all work flawlessly with Mana Echoes. Not to mention the evergreens Heat Shimmer and Twinflame...

Yes, overall is considerably weaker than , but i feel like there are plenty of ways that both sorts of mana combined spiral out of control quickly. First and foremost Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty, Runaway Steam-Kin and Storm-Kiln Artist come to mind.

I will surely get back to you once i get to draw Mana Echoes for the first time.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I run Mana Echoes in Krenko, where I can much more easily enable it. It also runs some colorless mana sinks that combo out with Krenko.
Unfortunately, I think the relatively low MV and cost reduction effects make generating large amounts of colorless rarely useful here. Perhaps if some of the semi-recent printings such as Prismite or Stonework Packbeast were available and Birgi was not printed then the colorless mana generators would be a viable mana engine.

@Toshi, if you find your tests with mana echoes to disagree with this, let us know. I'd be interested to know the circumstances that it performs well.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by x1372 » 2 years ago

well, it's not an instant. That said, Ancestral Anger is likely to be a new Zada staple. It cantrips, it grants trample, and it even buffs attack by 1!

I think Stolen Vitality isn't long for my Zada deck.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I think it was only a week ago that I was saying that I'd gladly replace scrytrips with cantrips when they are printed. Ancestral Anger being a sorcery at 1 MV is exactly the type of card that reinforces that thought. This would be an autoinclude even if it did nothing else for power or trample.

That being said, I'm not sure if this replaces a scrytrip or a learn-trip. I'll probably test both.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by x1372 » 2 years ago

There's no way we can make use of mass blood tokens to make them more useful than the pay and loot effect, is there? I feel like Bloody Betrayal is just BEGGING for some sort of Zada shenanigans, but the payoff is way less valuable than nearly any other card I'd put in the slot.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I think that Bloody Betrayal is another card which helps enable discard engines as the deck storms out. Blood tokens could enable Surly Badgersaur, for example. However, I don't think that there is enough support for this effects in monored right now. For now, bloody betrayal is probably just the most mana intensive learn-trip possible; compared to Academic Dispute for example.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

Innistrad: Crimson Vow set review
Recommended Inclusions
  • Ancestral Anger: A new 1 MV cantrip with no downside, even limited to sorcery speed, is a great inclusion. A solid upgrade to scrytrips and learntrips, and a good swap for other sources of draw.
Not Recommended, but Possible Considerations
changelog
Approximate Total Cost:

I'm primarily making this swap due entirely to MV reduction. Valakut awakening is the best source of draw in the deck which does not require Zada, and it can help smooth out suboptimal hands, but I rarely want to draw it while storming. The may swap back to drop Academic Dispute or Inordinate Rage instead. Learn-trips require enough cards in hand to really capitalize on them, but dispute is mana efficient. Inordinate costs more mana, but provides needed support for Rile and Spawning Breath effects. I think I'm near the minimum threshold for toughness effects.

Similarly, as much as I like the dual-purpose of Enthusiastic Study; paying 3 for a learn-trip was consistently painful. Swapping back to Rush of Adrenaline to lower mana costs. This would have been my cut for ancestral anger, but the toughness pump had been necessary in most games

I did give Bloodthirsty Adversary another shot, but compared to Past in Flames or Underworld Breach it is simply much less mana efficient based on my curve. The best card to compare it to remains Goblin Dark-Dwellers, and the number of times that adversary could have outperformed were infrequent compared to the number of times the adversary's interaction with Twinflame disappointed me.

I'm currently running my list with a couple of test slots for Sudden Breakthrough and Manaform Hellkite. Hopefully I'll get a reasonable test of those effects.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



Scout_800
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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

Hey everyone, I really want to run Jeska's Will in my list.
Convince otherwise… I mean it makes mana and gives us card to cast,
What's not to like?

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