30+ Creature Type Changeling Tribal

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I also really want to test Silumgar, the Drifting Death. My top end is pretty glutted up right now though. Annoying.
Always liked Silumgar. He is still part of my list and he is always relevant. I chose him as my "boardwipe" option (other options were Realm-Cloaked Giant, Tsabo's Decree and Endemic Plague). I never looked behind. Because it is a mass removal on a stick, tutorable with Magda or Pyre and very controlable. Hexproof helps too.
Yea I like him too. I ended up getting to -3/-3 my opponent one game with him. His effect is fast and he is hard to stop given the hexproof. I also like him as a potential blocker with that big old back end on him in a pinch.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I am still not really convinced to be honest. Its true that Scourge of Valkas does the same ETB trigger for the most part as Omnath, Locus of the Roil but its a lot easier to manage a land drop behind a play than it is to play a changeling / dragon behind it. I need to test more but so far I have needed more draw on more than one occasion but my removal package has felt fairly good so far. I am running a bunch of sweepers though which help me on the removal front. I also don't run bounce or flicker effects in my list which you do that probably make it look and feel better than it would in my list. Likewise, I am actually not really convinced that Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves is going to pan out for more or less the same reasons I am concerned about Scourge / Tempest but I also don't really have any other lifegain left in the deck so for now he is still in but I am not really sure about these effects.
A huge portion of the reason that Scourge of Valkas is so good is that it goes face. It can close out the game out extremely quickly. Slapping Lava Axe on every Changeling is no joke. It might not be strong enough in your deck but if Omnath, Locus of the Roil turns out to be decent for you, I'd highly recommend giving Scourge a test.

I'd be surprised if Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves works out super well for you. He does so good in my deck because he's tutorable and goes infinite on top of just being somewhat solid. I'd imagine only being "somewhat solid" won't make the cut for you.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Hunter Sliver though...... that guy has done some absolute work for me. Having a large sliver as my commander probably helps on that front as well as giving the bad small changelings indestructible and provoke is a nice combo.
My Changelings are all way too small unfortunately. I'm unsurprised he's eating people for you though. Beware the nombo with Winged Sliver.

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
You guys probably have a touch more dragon interaction given your commander choice as well which probably pushes you towards some of this. I just view Scourge of Valkas and Dragon Tempest as somewhat of slow removal requiring a lot of follow up play to get much out of them. I would say that Scourge would need to be played and see at least one to two changelings behind him to really feel like he payed for himself to me over just playing something like Beast Within. On top of that you can't really play him on an empty board so you probably need 1-2 changeling / dragons to play him in the first place to make him reliably be removal. I agree that a lot of our lord effects do need setup I just don't like the idea of needing board presence, casting a payoff, then needing to cast more changelings to get my payoff. Dragon Tempest doesn't do anything on its own but being cheaper to cast it makes it easier to multi task but I would say that it needs more plays behind it to payoff since it lacks an ETB of its own.

Its always a question of how long it takes to get payoff. I am just not sure that I love how much complexity it can take to get the payoff with these guys. I see the potential if they go unanswered but I always sort of assume that someone is going to try to answer everything I play before my next turn. It doesn't always happen but if my payoff period for a card takes 2-3+ turns it causes me some concern. The payoff time for vanilla changelings is already kind of high, I really don't want it to be high for my payoffs.
I had basically the exact same thought process and then I cast the card and was like "welp, this isn't ever getting cut". Admittedly, it probably won't wow you quite as well since your deck isn't built to machine gun someone with it, a 1 Changeling and Hibernation Sliver.

I have a tendency to mentally proxy/test. Where, when I draw a card I'm thinking of cutting I spend a few moments and some mental energy considering if the card I'm "testing" would actually be better. I'm just recommending that every time you draw Omnath, Locus of the Roil/Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves compare mentally how it lines up next to what Scourge of Valkas would have done. Maybe it'll be good enough, maybe not.

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
Always liked Silumgar. He is still part of my list and he is always relevant. I chose him as my "boardwipe" option (other options were Realm-Cloaked Giant, Tsabo's Decree and Endemic Plague). I never looked behind. Because it is a mass removal on a stick, tutorable with Magda or Pyre and very controlable. Hexproof helps too.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Yea I like him too. I ended up getting to -3/-3 my opponent one game with him. His effect is fast and he is hard to stop given the hexproof. I also like him as a potential blocker with that big old back end on him in a pinch.
I didn't notice he had hexproof until very recently. That's basically the only reason I want to test him. I'm thinking of slotting him and Spawning Kraken over Lathliss, Dragon Queen ( :( ) and Endemic Plague ( :( )

I really like Lathliss, but I just have so much dragon stuff already.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I suspect to some degree that I might have too much redundancy on some things in my build and what I actually need is just more tutors. Its never fun just jamming more tutors but the more I think about it, the more it feels like I have a lot of redundancy on some of my buff effects.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I suspect to some degree that I might have too much redundancy on some things in my build and what I actually need is just more tutors. Its never fun just jamming more tutors but the more I think about it, the more it feels like I have a lot of redundancy on some of my buff effects.
You're already running a ton of unconditional tutors by my standards. I'm confused as to why you think you need more.

A lot of the fun for me with this deck is that the redundant effects tend to stack up and just be doubly effective. The only completely redundant effects I can see in your list are Winged Sliver/Cloudshredder Sliver and Gemhide Sliver/Manaweft Sliver.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I suspect to some degree that I might have too much redundancy on some things in my build and what I actually need is just more tutors. Its never fun just jamming more tutors but the more I think about it, the more it feels like I have a lot of redundancy on some of my buff effects.
You're already running a ton of unconditional tutors by my standards. I'm confused as to why you think you need more.

A lot of the fun for me with this deck is that the redundant effects tend to stack up and just be doubly effective. The only completely redundant effects I can see in your list are Winged Sliver/Cloudshredder Sliver and Gemhide Sliver/Manaweft Sliver.
Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves - his removal can be largely duplicated by Silumgar, the Drifting Death / Realm-Cloaked Giant / Hunter Sliver. There is the lifegain element but I don't think its actually that much life I would expect to gain. If I had a tutor instead of him I could also go get card draw or whatever else I need.

Seshiro the Anointed - He is a six drop and I was already not impressed with my average lack of evasion paired with how expensive he was to cast. With adding Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow into the deck I could still access the draw kind of effect of this effect if someone is open or if I had her I could potentially get evasion. Moving it to a tutor would lower the curve as well.

Its also possible that I could cut Winged Sliver but given its low cost I figured I would try out two flyers for now and see how I feel about them. I am still not running Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, or Chord of Calling. I guess I wouldn't call my current tutor count high by my standards but I also wouldn't call it low. My draw felt like it could use some work and tutors often help with consistency issues.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

Tiamat - "My children will rule over all!"

A 7/7 flier that draws 5 Changelings seems fantastic. Especially since one of them can be Moritte of the Frost to clone her and draw an additional 5.

That seems really strong, but the flavor fail hurts me so so so badly. I might not run it because it hurts me so much.

Also, really hilarious to get her off of The World Tree and fail then to find / only find one dragon with her.

@ISBPathfinder Seems like Tiamat would be pretty fantastic for your deck in particular.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Tiamat - "My children will rule over all!"

A 7/7 flier that draws 5 Changelings seems fantastic. Especially since one of them can be Moritte of the Frost to clone her and draw an additional 5.

That seems really strong, but the flavor fail hurts me so so so badly. I might not run it because it hurts me so much.

Also, really hilarious to get her off of The World Tree and fail then to find / only find one dragon with her.

@ISBPathfinder Seems like Tiamat would be pretty fantastic for your deck in particular.
I could see including him. I like that its a big flyer with card advantage on ETB. With Sliver Hivelord as a commander it keeps me out of a lot of wrath threats so someone wrathing to kill non my commander / changlelings is kind of fine and if someone uses spot removal on him that also kind of works for me.

Seven mana creatures are always sort of a concern still but I could see giving him a shot.
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Post by Tribbles » 2 years ago

Tiamat is a dragon so you instantly get Support and triggers from Ur-Dragon, Dragon Tempest, Scourge of Valkas, Lathliss etc. If you run Morophon (named Dragon as your type) and have Ur-Dragon as your commander it can cost as low as 1 colourless which is disgusting, and it's effect is good. It does however have that stipulation that you need to have cast it to get its ETB, so you won't get the effect from Cryptic Gateway or Birthing Podding it in, right? Casting it means it's a prime counter target once your pod learns of it. High risk, high reward then. I guess you need to make sure to cast it with mana from Cavern of Souls? The "if you cast it" stipulation has added a lot of doubt to my mind about this card.
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Post by offspring » 2 years ago

Yeah, if it was only an ETB effect, I'd probably run Tiamat. In any case, a 6 mana 7/7 flyer that tutors 5 is nothing to sneeze at.

Now my concern: without Morophon, the Boundless on the battlefield, I'm afraid that even though it has amazing rate, 6 mana is quite a lot. I figure it'll be friggin amazing when Morophon is online, since you'll be able to play the other changelings (at least the two mana ones) immediately as well, but it's gonna feel clunky when Morophon isn't there. Or am I asking for too much?

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Post by Moonlighter » 2 years ago

Two games in today, first since I built the deck. My build is pretty similar to @materpillar's at this point.

First was vs. Lathril, Blade of the Elves, Daretti, Scrap Savant, and Esix, Fractal Bloom. I worked around with two lands most of the game - but Gemhide Sliver did a lot of work. The board got pretty clogged up, so I ended up popping an Endemic Plague to clear the board. I had Cryptic Gateway and Mirror of the Forebears on the field and Daretti's Hellkite Tyrant was on the field for a turn, so I felt the loss of the field I had was fine. I ended up topdecking Hibernation Sliver, Gateway'd a Scourge of Valkas onto the field (plus a few other changelings), and then used the Universal Automaton to kill everyone.

Second game got significantly more insane. Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis, Animar, Soul of Elements, and Lathril, Blade of the Elves again. Same group, mostly different decks. K&T just let everyone ramp, so things got out of hand. I got a Didgeridoo onto the field eventually, with a Maskwood Nexus out. This allowed me to use Walker of Secret Ways, Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro, and Magda, Brazen Outlaw to drop the Automaton (MVP) N<42 times with Reaper King on the field - This Clears The Board. I knocked out the Animar player with The Ur-Dragon in two turns before this. So once I informed the remaining field that I could Vindicate anything they had at instant speed, they all scooped.

Now what is the best about this is not that I won, but that everyone laughed. This deck is hilarious to play! Just seeing all the pieces work together when you drop a single Mothdust Changeling is intricate and enjoyable. And what's nice is that we can be sure that every set will likely drop something that we can at least look at, and so the deck can shift and change without being overly powerful, and fairly silly. It helps that my playgroup packs few boardwipes!
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Post by offspring » 2 years ago

That sounds like a lot of fun, @Moonlighter. Good to hear you're on board, the way your first games panned out was quite like what happened at my table. It's a very unique list with a very unique playstyle.

That said: I have a question. Since we're all so convinced that cards like Didgeridoo, Maskwood Nexus and Cryptic Gateway do so much work, is it worth running Command Beacon maybe? I'd imagine we'd be able to cheat The Ur-Dragon into play at end of an opponent's turn, giving him semi-haste. For me at least, since I'm running Crucible of Worlds, it could be a repetitive effect as well, which I really like. I do realize this is an issue for @materpillar's primer list since both crucible and the beacon doesn't meet the requirements. but for those of us using less strict boundaries (for example, I allow some less thematical cards in my list to smooth my manabase) this might be a seriously good option.

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Post by Tribbles » 2 years ago

offspring wrote:
2 years ago
That said: I have a question. Since we're all so convinced that cards like Didgeridoo, Maskwood Nexus and Cryptic Gateway do so much work, is it worth running Command Beacon maybe? I'd imagine we'd be able to cheat The Ur-Dragon into play at end of an opponent's turn, giving him semi-haste. For me at least, since I'm running Crucible of Worlds, it could be a repetitive effect as well, which I really like. I do realize this is an issue for @materpillar's primer list since both crucible and the beacon doesn't meet the requirements. but for those of us using less strict boundaries (for example, I allow some less thematical cards in my list to smooth my manabase) this might be a seriously good option.
In more-forgiving lists, I can see this being viable. This and Hellkite Courser. I've hard-cast The Ur-Dragon a few times when running this deck and it's an instant target for countering or removal. Having its on-attack trigger proc is amazing value. It's essential to run some counters or some clones (like Moritte of the Frost) that you can flash out to preserve your value. Otherwise, you'll be stuck with him in the command zone again.

@offspring I would be interested to see your list, if you've not already mentioned it. Would love to see what you're doing outside of the tribal parameters. I trust Crucible doesn't stay around for long?
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

offspring wrote:
2 years ago
That said: I have a question. Since we're all so convinced that cards like Didgeridoo, Maskwood Nexus and Cryptic Gateway do so much work, is it worth running Command Beacon maybe?
I think that's actually pretty far from a consensus. I'm pretty vocal in support of them, but a lot of people chose not to run them.
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
I'd imagine we'd be able to cheat The Ur-Dragon into play at end of an opponent's turn, giving him semi-haste. For me at least, since I'm running Crucible of Worlds, it could be a repetitive effect as well, which I really like. I do realize this is an issue for @materpillar's primer list since both crucible and the beacon doesn't meet the requirements. but for those of us using less strict boundaries (for example, I allow some less thematical cards in my list to smooth my manabase) this might be a seriously good option.
Command Beacon feels a bit too win-more for my tastes. If you've stuck Didgeridoo + Maskwood Nexus you're probably doing fine already. Putting in Command Beacon in just for Cryptic Gateway seems a bit loose. I'd hazard a guess that Contested Cliffs, Elephant Graveyard, Swarmyard, Unholy Grotto and Riptide Laboratory will all be consistently better. It could be worth it if you're running a handful of tutors that can find Cryptic Gateway to make Command Beacon more consistent. Tapping for 1 is just real rough.
Tribbles wrote:
2 years ago
In more-forgiving lists, I can see this being viable. This and Hellkite Courser. I've hard-cast The Ur-Dragon a few times when running this deck and it's an instant target for countering or removal. Having its on-attack trigger proc is amazing value. It's essential to run some counters or some clones (like Moritte of the Frost) that you can flash out to preserve your value. Otherwise, you'll be stuck with him in the command zone again.
I haven't actually had The Ur-Dragon get killed a whole lot when I play him. Which is strange because he's a huge threat. I do run a fair amount of incidental protection for him with Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate or Amoeboid Changeling + Swarmyard. I guess I flash in Changeling Titan and friends to protect him a fair amount. I wonder if it's that or that I just haven't played against people with enough interaction recently. :thinking:

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Post by Tribbles » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I haven't actually had The Ur-Dragon get killed a whole lot when I play him. Which is strange because he's a huge threat. I do run a fair amount of incidental protection for him with Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate or Amoeboid Changeling + Swarmyard. I guess I flash in Changeling Titan and friends to protect him a fair amount. I wonder if it's that or that I just haven't played against people with enough interaction recently.
Maybe that's an artefact of the novelty of this deck and confusion it sort of yields. Threat assessment is hard when you're unsure of the threats within the deck. People in my group play some counters and things that can deal with threats, and The Ur-Dragon is famously a big threat. Championing it with a flashed-in Changeling to get him out of dodge is so funny!
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Post by offspring » 2 years ago

Tribbles wrote:
2 years ago
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I haven't actually had The Ur-Dragon get killed a whole lot when I play him. Which is strange because he's a huge threat. I do run a fair amount of incidental protection for him with Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate or Amoeboid Changeling + Swarmyard. I guess I flash in Changeling Titan and friends to protect him a fair amount. I wonder if it's that or that I just haven't played against people with enough interaction recently.
Maybe that's an artefact of the novelty of this deck and confusion it sort of yields. Threat assessment is hard when you're unsure of the threats within the deck. People in my group play some counters and things that can deal with threats, and The Ur-Dragon is famously a big threat. Championing it with a flashed-in Changeling to get him out of dodge is so funny!
There's quite a bit of spot removal in my playgroup, both in Counterspells and in Creature destruction. The Ur-Dragon is definitely one of the more popular removal targets and hardly ever sticks around for more than a turn cycle. Commanders are quite prone to removal in my meta anyway, so I like to tinker my lists in such a way that they're not dependent on the commander to win a game.
Tribbles wrote:
2 years ago
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
That said: I have a question. Since we're all so convinced that cards like Didgeridoo, Maskwood Nexus and Cryptic Gateway do so much work, is it worth running Command Beacon maybe? I'd imagine we'd be able to cheat The Ur-Dragon into play at end of an opponent's turn, giving him semi-haste. For me at least, since I'm running Crucible of Worlds, it could be a repetitive effect as well, which I really like. I do realize this is an issue for @materpillar's primer list since both crucible and the beacon doesn't meet the requirements. but for those of us using less strict boundaries (for example, I allow some less thematical cards in my list to smooth my manabase) this might be a seriously good option.
In more-forgiving lists, I can see this being viable. This and Hellkite Courser. I've hard-cast The Ur-Dragon a few times when running this deck and it's an instant target for countering or removal. Having its on-attack trigger proc is amazing value. It's essential to run some counters or some clones (like Moritte of the Frost) that you can flash out to preserve your value. Otherwise, you'll be stuck with him in the command zone again.

@offspring I would be interested to see your list, if you've not already mentioned it. Would love to see what you're doing outside of the tribal parameters. I trust Crucible doesn't stay around for long?
I somehow don't see Crucible all that much. And if I do, it's not one of the first removal targets. If it would be, I'd be happy, since it would be one less removal spell for Maskwood Nexus ;).

Didgeridoo is still not in my list. I like the fact that it flashes in changelings, but dislike that it does only changelings unless you have a Maskwood Nexus out. Since I've been adding more and more utility lands over time - like @materpillar said, there are loads of them and I run Contested Cliffs, Swarmyard, Mutavault, and The World Tree right now, I've been thinking about adding Expedition Map. It could replace a ramp card like Nature's Lore since it fixes.

I think this is my current build. Could be a bit different on a card or two.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

I just got a game in with Silumgar, the Drifting Death and he was an utter house. Dropped him turn 5 and he just kept Plague Winding my opponents with him and 3 Changelings. He'll stick around for a while. Hexproof and Elephant Graveyard just blanked a ton of their removal. Peer Pressure to steal 3 Hydras. Mirror Entity + Priest of Titania to close out the game.

How has Spellstutter Sprite been for everyone? It seems like everyone jammed it into their list upon immediate suggestion. I haven't drawn mine once yet.

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Post by Moonlighter » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
How has Spellstutter Sprite been for everyone? It seems like everyone jammed it into their list upon immediate suggestion. I haven't drawn mine once yet.
I only have a few games in - but we get together every other Saturday morning, so I've got a few games coming. That said, I dropped Spellstutter Sprite once and it was clutch. So. Useful. In thinking on Tribal stuff, is there any reason not to run, say Vedalken Aethermage and/or Patron Wizard for a more controlly shell? The aethermage gives us a hilarious changeling/sliver bounce when needed, or operates as a tutor for a changeling or a wizard. I have a few of these laying around. I made a patron wizard deck a long time ago for kitchen table casual 60-card. My friends hated that deck, haha. I sold most of the Patrons when Inalla came out, as his price spiked high enough to build me another deck.
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Post by Tribbles » 2 years ago

I second the Spellstutter Sprite inclusion. I run it in my list and the couple of times it's hit the field it's been gas. People are privy to it now, but usually it's unstoppable as it's my response to their response of some of my on-field shenanigans.

Vedalken Aethermage is a flavour win and such a cool card. I want to find space for it (this with Azami?) in my build, but I already have a side/maybebord the size of a standard deck… Most of the time I prefer my opponents not to have the ability to pay 1 to circumvent a counter, so Patron Vein is a no-go for me at the moment (especially as my changeling/wizards also usually tap for mana, attack, or tap with Cryptic Gateway). I run a Haakon build, so my version of this is Voidmage Prodigy, though I want to try out Ertai, the Corrupted or Brine Shaman as they operate along similar lines. These in combination with Hofri Ghostforge (amazing!!) usually give me options and answers to my opponents.
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Post by narglfrob » 2 years ago

I've finally drawn and played Spellstutter Sprite, it was great. It created a great sense of emotional safety being able to hold up such a flexible answer, and its great that it gets better the more you over-extend (i.e. when you need it most).

I also got really lucky in that I drew it alongside Azami, so it drew me some cards as well (Azami also played really well, really happy I added it)

Other Cards:
  • Vedalken Aethermage: I'm suspect about. We have so many powerfull cards we could be running in this deck, a 3cmc tutor (that doesn't fetch our payoffs) doesn't seem like something we have time for?
  • Patron Wizard: Agreed this seems enticing. I have not tested it tho.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I guess my concern with Spellstutter Sprite (my build looks very different obviously) is that I don't see a lot of reason to run it over something like Arcane Denial. I guess the question is can you abuse it via flicker or bounce but outside of that I don't see a reason to run it other than being a slave to the tribal concept.

The reason to run a card like the sprite would ideally be that you plan to somehow generate additional value from it beyond its ETB. My other issue is that its a rather narrow application sort of card in that its going to be limited in what it can counter and its counter can get blown out by responsive interaction.

I am all for sweet synergy, I just see it as an under performing counterspell though. What additional value do you plan to make it better than just a one shot ETB?
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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I guess my concern with Spellstutter Sprite (my build looks very different obviously) is that I don't see a lot of reason to run it over something like Arcane Denial. I guess the question is can you abuse it via flicker or bounce but outside of that I don't see a reason to run it other than being a slave to the tribal concept.

The reason to run a card like the sprite would ideally be that you plan to somehow generate additional value from it beyond its ETB. My other issue is that its a rather narrow application sort of card in that its going to be limited in what it can counter and its counter can get blown out by responsive interaction.

I am all for sweet synergy, I just see it as an under performing counterspell though. What additional value do you plan to make it better than just a one shot ETB?
Being bounceable and reusable should be enough to consider it FAR superior than any other conventional counterspell in this deck, honestly. It draws you cards if you play Azami. It can be instant speed tutorable with Maskwood Nexus in play. Ofc it is a counter+body on its own, which counts as CA as well.

Sprite has overperformed any time I drew it. I consider it a staple in the deck. I remember a case when I sacced 5 treasures with Magda in respond to a Cyclonic Rift, brought Maskwood Nexus in play and then payed 3 mana with Moggcatcher and brought the Sprite to counter the rift.
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Post by Moonlighter » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I am all for sweet synergy, I just see it as an under performing counterspell though. What additional value do you plan to make it better than just a one shot ETB?
Being bounceable and reusable should be enough to consider it FAR superior than any other conventional counterspell in this deck, honestly. It draws you cards if you play Azami. It can be instant speed tutorable with Maskwood Nexus in play. Ofc it is a counter+body on its own, which counts as CA as well.

Sprite has overperformed any time I drew it. I consider it a staple in the deck. I remember a case when I sacced 5 treasures with Magda in respond to a Cyclonic Rift, brought Maskwood Nexus in play and then payed 3 mana with Moggcatcher and brought the Sprite to counter the rift.
With Maskwood Nexus in play, there are a lot of solid ways to bounce and reuse the Sprite, as mentioned, as well as ways to tutor for it. I think the important secondary point is that it fits within the tribal constraints, and, as mentioned, that's not the way you do. And it may be a weaker counter than many, but it stays in theme and takes advantage of all the etb and creature support baked into a deck like this. Hell, I just realized I could use I could use any of my champion changelings to find ways to get extra uses out of it.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
Being bounceable and reusable should be enough to consider it FAR superior than any other conventional counterspell in this deck, honestly. It draws you cards if you play Azami. It can be instant speed tutorable with Maskwood Nexus in play. Ofc it is a counter+body on its own, which counts as CA as well.

Sprite has overperformed any time I drew it. I consider it a staple in the deck. I remember a case when I sacced 5 treasures with Magda in respond to a Cyclonic Rift, brought Maskwood Nexus in play and then payed 3 mana with Moggcatcher and brought the Sprite to counter the rift.
I get what you are saying, but all of that sounded kind of winmore to me.

1) You got to tutor with Magda
2) You got to untap with a Moggcatcher and use it.

I haven't gotten to play with Magda yet, she is in my list so I can't really comment yet on her but I have more or less long ago stopped running Moggcatcher because my expected untap rate with that card is probably only somewhere around 20%.

I guess what I am saying is, that is cool that it worked there, but in that scenario that could have been sort of any creature based counterspell. I don't know what everyone's lists look like but a lot of the bounce effects look like they rely on specific creature types. Lots of what I am hearing sounds like its cool, when everything is already working out. I really want to have something that is going to always work not situationally if set up correctly. I get the potential for abuse but what I just saw was a situation where it was ok when you were LEAGUES ahead in play. What if someone gets out ahead of you rather than trying to use it to stop someone from answering you?
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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I really want to have something that is going to always work not situationally if set up correctly. I get the potential for abuse but what I just saw was a situation where it was ok when you were LEAGUES ahead in play. What if someone gets out ahead of you rather than trying to use it to stop someone from answering you?
The answer is simple. Counterspells are reacted spells. Played when you are ahead and try to stop your opponent from interacting/stoping you. We are a fast deck (even the most midrangey lists here), so 99%, this will be the case. If someone gets ahead of you, you DO NOT need counters. You need threats and CA engines. But with this philosophy of yours, the correct number of counters in a deck should always be 0.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I really want to have something that is going to always work not situationally if set up correctly. I get the potential for abuse but what I just saw was a situation where it was ok when you were LEAGUES ahead in play. What if someone gets out ahead of you rather than trying to use it to stop someone from answering you?
The answer is simple. Counterspells are reacted spells. Played when you are ahead and try to stop your opponent from interacting/stoping you. We are a fast deck (even the most midrangey lists here), so 99%, this will be the case. If someone gets ahead of you, you DO NOT need counters. You need threats and CA engines. But with this philosophy of yours, the correct number of counters in a deck should always be 0.
I was using Arcane Denial as an example since it was the same mana cost of 1U. In general, I don't think that this overly is a counterspell heavy sort of commander as I agree with you that it tends to be a tap out kind of deck but that doesn't mean that something like Fierce Guardianship (dependent somewhat on commander choice) or some other cheap counters couldn't be appropriate. I could see Pact of Negation for instance being totally acceptable depending on how comboish your meta may be. In the right meta I could also see a few of the one mana counters like Flusterstorm as well. I think a lot of the 2+ mana counters that are heavier on blue are unlikely to fit this build though.

Some of my concerns on the sprite is how it needs somewhat of a specific creature number as well as creature types. I for instance rarely have more than three changelings in play at a time and I wouldn't even say that is the norm. What sort of effects do you find yourself really wanting to counter as I would suspect that lots of them might be wraths offhand. But there is also the problem that you need a high creature count / the right creature types to counter spells so wraths which often in this format end up being 4-6 mana spells seem harder to counter on average with this sort of effect. I also don't like how limited its removal ends up being and how few things profitably interact to make it more than just the single ETB.

I am someone who heavily tends to favor a KISS concept though in building. I really dislike a lot of cards that require surviving a long time or a lot of other cards in play enabling them. I play on a very resilient and simplistic 1+1 sort of concept in part because I get targeted heavily and I don't expect anything I play on this turn to be alive by the next. I chose a resilient commander because I wanted to put a lot of emphasis in not getting swept hard. I remember when I used to play Edgar Markov for example. I remember a game where I got swept EVERY turn for 6 turns and in some cases more than once in a turn (they had to multi wrath me once). Its super important to me to not rely on overly complex boards. I was still in that game and I was the reason that every wrath happened due to having a strong card draw and low curve concept.
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