30+ Creature Type Changeling Tribal

[materpillar]

I've gotten a full party with Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate pretty often but that only requires 3 changelings and she's protecting them.

I'm seriously considering testing Spellstutter Sprite. With only 1 changeling on the battlefield she counters Cyclonic Rift and most removal. With 3-4 changelings she counters most wrath spells. With Maskwood Nexus effects and Hibernation Sliver effects you can probably lock down a table pretty efficiently. Also plays really well with Emiel the Blessed.

I haven't gotten any games in but I'll dig into your guys thoughts more deeply later this weekend/early next week.

[Moth]

What are your experiences with Coveted Prize? I have one lying around, but I wouldn't expect to have a full party that often. Four changelings on the battlefield at the same time isn't too standard for me I think - but I'll start paying more attention to that from now on, because it's more a feeling than a certainty.

Coveted Prize is the only tutor I currently run until I get my hands on a Cateran Summons and the Poddy Pair. You'd be surprised just how often you reach 2 or 3 Changelings quickly which turns it into our very own Demonic Tutor. In that way, pushing for 4 isn't always needed as long as the cost reduction is good enough.
Effects such as those on Unnatural Selection, Amoeboid Changeling, Mirror Entity can be used to push that Party amount up for a greater effect. Najeela, the Blade-Blossom and the aforementioned Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate both count as Party members too, so the card overall is pretty useful!

For the free cast, however, there's a bunch of stuff I try and get off it for free:
Maskwood Nexus obviously, starts making Changelings and ascends the board state,
Whelming Wave is a good one. If you have a lot of Party coverage you either have a lot of changelings or everything is incidentally a Changeling, in that case it acts as a mini Cyclonic Rift,
Peer Pressure is sweet for sneaky steals, as your Party is maxed the number of Changelings you probably have is also high so you can go take something,
Anything else that'll help you in that time, such as Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to rebuild or Knight Exemplar to protect everything, Crib Swap for targeted removal or Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow for card draw. It turns out being able to find something and then play something for free off just is really very good!

[materpillar]

Turning all my creatures into Dogs and Cats and draining with Rin and Seri, Inseparable,

How has Rin and Seri, Inseparable been? I never tested it.

my personal favourite, dropping a Dragon Tempest into an Avenger of Zendikar to blow everyone up with Dragon Plants.

Huh... Avenger of Zendikar is kind of a tribal card isn't it. Well that's neat.

From this list, I'd use Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate and Full Moon's Rise, but considering a combination of Ghostway and Eerie Interlude is better for a flickering build as they all LTB and ETB instead of simply regenerating.

I haven't tried Full Moon's Rise, I kind of figured it'd be too weak. How's it been for you?

Using Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to repeatedly cast Crib Swap for or Nameless Inversion for is both absolutely busted and gets around pesky Indestructible effects.

How many effects are you using to get him out? How consistently are you finding you can get him into play?

Harmonic Sliver can honestly be the most annoying card to play sometimes and I'm considering Aura Shards over it simply because the trigger is a "may", so you don't blow up your own Universal Automaton, Cryptic Gateway or worst of all, Maskwood Nexus.

I actually ended up cutting Harmonic Sliver for this reason.

On the topic of Cryptic Gateway, I am absolutely in love with my Didgeridoo, yet I can't help but feel it is very much outclassed by the Gateway. Would you recommend using both in one build or just the Gateway and another effect such as Pyre of Heroes/Birthing Pod? The two Pod effects also feel extremely good if you arent running Entomb effects to get Haakon, Stromgald Scourge into the grave.

I run both. I tend to only draw Didgeridoo though. I think that Cryptic Gateway is way stronger, I'd cut the Didgeridoo first between the two of them (I have no plans to cut Didgeridoo). xD

My Turntimber Ranger is a sore subject in my playgroups right now. Whereas it's good for filling the board with a bunch of 2/2 Wolves and making a big boy, it also goes infinite so very easily with any sort of type-changing card, which is near to 10% of my current build. I might be swapping it out for some sort of effect that isn't quite so disgusting. (Or gather the self-control to not immediately make 10,000 Wolves at the earliest convenience)

Interesting. I never really tried out Turntimber Ranger maybe I should give it a ponder since it seems to be doing so well for you. Doesn't it only go infinite with Maskwood Nexus/Artificial Evolution though?

How did you play Coveted Prize for free? Dragon Tempest is a card I keep considering for a spot removal slot, but haven't tested yet. How has it been? I just don't really like to play too many creature lords and would be tempted to run Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves first (but removed that a while ago).

For certain give Dragon Tempest a slot. That card is busted. It also gives The Ur-Dragon haste which isn't flavor text.

I have a Didgeridoo and a Cryptic Gateway in my binders, but I'm not running either. The low cmc of the changelings just doesn't justify them, although they're really, really stylish cards (especially the didgeridoo). I'd need more consistency in the Maskwood Nexus kind of effects, so my non-changelings would be cheaper consistently. As for Pyre / Pod: I'm still running Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero over them because she's more of a unique card (at least in my meta). Really considering to cut her for a Nameless Inversion though. Maybe the other tutor-creatures are more than enough.

On Birchlore Rangers: I'd run this over BoP any time in this list. It's just more on theme. It's hardly ever as good, but it's almost always decent and when it's good, it's really good. I've had him out with Merrow Commerce and Arcane Adaptation and that runs really smoothly.

Compare Birchlore Rangers to Cryptic Gateway. With Birchlore Rangers you tap to changelings for U. With Cryptic Gateway you tap two changelings for WURGB to spend on a creature that now has flash and uncounterable. That creature can then be tapped with Cryptic Gateway to put something else into play. It's pretty filthy.

Similarly, Didgeridoo isn't strong because it's giving you a mana discount. It's strong because it gives your changelings flash/uncounterable/pseudo-haste. This lets you avoid committing too heavily to the board. You'll lose less creatures to wraths and have more mana up for removal to disrupt your opponents. It's incredibly strong with the Changeling Titan cycle because you can flash them into play in response to removal to save your creatures from death. Speaking of, I'd definitely cut Webweaver Changeling for Changeling Titan. You can also do this trick with Moggcatcher and friends to save a key creature from a removal or wrath.

One more question for you all: ever considered Vedalken Aethermage? I have, never got around to testing it, and doubt it's good enough, but It does enable to cute tricks. In my list, it would at least find Azami, Lady of Scrolls and I think Strixhaven will give it an upgrade.

I haven't. It'd be an extremely wild situation for me to ever actually cast her so I just run Cateran Summons instead.

And last but not least, I got in a game this week, which was loads of fun again. Didn't win, but I toyed around with Wirewood Symbiote for the first time and man, it's good. I got her out with a Seahunter and enough mana untapped, so was about to go off finding Sylvia Brightspear and Khorvath Brightflame (there was an Arcane Adaptation saying Merfolk as well), but in response to the first activation, someone played Opposition Agent. So in response, I activate again and find Reaper King, after which I was able to in my turn bounce Universal Automaton to my hand and destroy the Agent. Unfortunately, there where too many boardwipes after that to recover decently. If I would've been able to pull of the searches I wanted, The Ur-Dragon would have been a 11/11 hasty double striker.

Cheers!

Glad you're enjoying the deck!

[materpillar]

Just got a game in vs Kemba, Kha Regent, Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor and Ghen, Arcanum Weaver.

Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor ramped hard but I killed his general with Spit Flame turn 3. Then Ghen, Arcanum Weaver cast Austere Command turn 5 to kill Obuun again and blow up Kemba's board. I was just kind of durdling around with Realmwalker/ and [card]Wirewood Savage. Turn 7, Ghen casts Fumigate to wipe the board. Turn 10, Kemba hits Obuun for 16 (lethal because of 5 earlier) commander damage. End of Kemba's turn I use Moggcatcher to find Tuktuk Scrapper to destroy one of his equipment. Ghen plays Haphazard Bombardment with one of its targets being my The World Tree. As he passes turn I crack the world tree (yay hitting my land drops every turn +1 from Risen Reef. I find 14 changelings and blow up all three of Kemba's artifacts with 16 allies on the board. Untap, The Scorpion God hits for 14. Mirror Entity for 1. Tap Harabaz Druid for 18, pump all my creatures to 23/23s and kill Ghen.


Starfield of Nyx does not give the enchantments a creature type. I really wanted to Peer Pressure/Endemic Plague to all his stuff.


I have not been impressed with Absorb Identity at all. I've drawn it several times and never wanted to cast it. There's just so much ETB and so few large Timmy dinosaurs. I think I'm going to test Spellstutter Sprite over it. Spit Flame on the other hand is exceptional at killing commanders and pricing them out of the game. 10/10 that card is great.

Realmwalker felt way better than I was expecting. I got it out with Maskwood Nexus and it didn't do much because it was so early game and I wasn't ramping but there's some serious potential there.

I had Patron of the Vein in my hand. I didn't cast it because I was holding up Absorb Identity mana and no one was doing anything overly threatening. It would have done good work though because Kemba was looping stuff with Emeria, the Sky Ruin. I'm still happy to see that card every time.

[offspring]

Alright, based on everything I've read here, I'm going to change a couple of things.

• Ayula, Queen Among Bears is, reluctantly, going to be replaced by Dragon Tempest. They both have spotremoval as the main purpose basically , and I'm guessing Dragon Tempest will do the better job at that - espicially while the average cmc of my changelings keeps declining. Giving The Ur-Dragon haste is a better upside than the +1/+1 counters I suspect.

• My meta is becoming more and more counter-heavy, and Spellstutter Sprite is a great addition I believe. No idea what it's going to replace, and I love some other on-theme way than Wirewood Symbiote and jumping through a hoop to bounce her to your hand.

[materpillar]

Ayula, Queen Among Bears is, reluctantly, going to be replaced by Dragon Tempest. They both have spotremoval as the main purpose basically , and I'm guessing Dragon Tempest will do the better job at that - espicially while the average cmc of my changelings keeps declining. Giving The Ur-Dragon haste is a better upside than the +1/+1 counters I suspect.

Another one of the main upsides is Dragon Tempest can go face. It's haste/removal/wincondition all in a neat 2 mana package. Yesterday, I resolved Maskwood Nexus for the first time and it was horrifyingly busted. It + Dragon Tempest+Cryptic Gateway+Walker of Secret Ways just let me just straight kill someone with their Cyclonic Rift on the stack.

My meta is becoming more and more counter-heavy, and Spellstutter Sprite is a great addition I believe. No idea what it's going to replace, and I love some other on-theme way than Wirewood Symbiote and jumping through a hoop to bounce her to your hand.

Emiel the Blessed is the least amount of hoops to jump through. I think you'll want hoops for bouncing Spellstutter Sprite or you'll lock people out of the game pretty fast.



Sliver Hivelord continues to overperform. Every time I draw it I think "would I rather this be Cloudshredder Sliver"? They answer has been a consistent "no". This past game I put Sliver Hivelord into play with Cryptic Gateway in response to Wrath of God.

I was playing against Kami of the Crescent Moon everyone draws deck. I was getting 4+ extra cards a turn and just constantly vomiting them onto the table. Things got really lethal really fast for my opponents. I singlehandedly killed all three of them by turn 7.

[Haman]

I have a observation but I don't really know how to phrase it. I will just assigned some names and examples.
B4C = Cards you cast before casting changelings
eg.. Spitfire, Ayula

AFC = Cards you cast after casting changelings..
eg. Coverted prize, Silumgar, the Drifting Death

RA = Relevant always
eg. Sliver Hivelord

An average deck is about 18 changeling+10 ramp+37 lands +7 removal + 6 card draw= 78 cards leaving 21 cards for tribally goodness.

an average number in this 21 cards = 7B4C + 7AFC +7RA
technically if we just trim and control around this 21 cards, and their ratio, would it be enough to create different kind of play patterns?

[offspring]

I have a observation but I don't really know how to phrase it. I will just assigned some names and examples.
B4C = Cards you cast before casting changelings
eg.. Spitfire, Ayula

AFC = Cards you cast after casting changelings..
eg. Coverted prize, Silumgar, the Drifting Death

RA = Relevant always
eg. Sliver Hivelord

An average deck is about 18 changeling+10 ramp+37 lands +7 removal + 6 card draw= 78 cards leaving 21 cards for tribally goodness.

an average number in this 21 cards = 7B4C + 7AFC +7RA
technically if we just trim and control around this 21 cards, and their ratio, would it be enough to create different kind of play patterns?

I agree broadly. However, the 'tribally goodness' can spread to your other categories as well, as Materpillar has been pointing out since the beginning. For example, where'd you put Gilt-Leaf Archdruid? It's both draw and '7B4C', right? And where would Moggcatcher et al. go? I honestly wouldn't know in which category to put some of the cards in my list I think. For starters however, this could be a very good way to start building your changelings deck. I'd love to have had a template like this a year or two ago.

One other thing. Since I added Crib Swap to my list now, Myr Reservoir might be back on the table as an option for my list. It would also get better when Nameless Inversion would be included again. I removed it earlier since it was a bit narrow - the fact that it doesn't fix your mana is a big con in my experience. That said, it's obviously a lot more flavorful than Kodama's Reach. What are your experiences with it?

[materpillar]

I have a observation but I don't really know how to phrase it. I will just assigned some names and examples.
B4C = Cards you cast before casting changelings
eg.. Spitfire, Ayula

AFC = Cards you cast after casting changelings..
eg. Coverted prize, Silumgar, the Drifting Death

RA = Relevant always
eg. Sliver Hivelord

An average deck is about 18 changeling+10 ramp+37 lands +7 removal + 6 card draw= 78 cards leaving 21 cards for tribally goodness.

an average number in this 21 cards = 7B4C + 7AFC +7RA
technically if we just trim and control around this 21 cards, and their ratio, would it be enough to create different kind of play patterns?

I agree broadly. However, the 'tribally goodness' can spread to your other categories as well, as Materpillar has been pointing out since the beginning. For example, where'd you put Gilt-Leaf Archdruid? It's both draw and '7B4C', right? And where would Moggcatcher et al. go? I honestly wouldn't know in which category to put some of the cards in my list I think. For starters however, this could be a very good way to start building your changelings deck. I'd love to have had a template like this a year or two ago.

I personally don't have any structure like this that I use. I'll ponder this idea some more. I'm trying to get this changed into a primer, so having some distinction like this might be useful. But like offspring said, I try to get cards that are as useful in as many situations as possible. Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves is technically B4C but he's also fine to cast on his own to pick off a utility creature. Most of the mana ramp creatures are fine on their own or before/after changelings.

One other thing. Since I added Crib Swap to my list now, Myr Reservoir might be back on the table as an option for my list. It would also get better when Nameless Inversion would be included again. I removed it earlier since it was a bit narrow - the fact that it doesn't fix your mana is a big con in my experience. That said, it's obviously a lot more flavorful than Kodama's Reach. What are your experiences with it?

I cut Myr Reservoir a long long time ago (it was in the first edition of the deck). It only helps to cast 10/18 changelings in the deck (or 10% of the entire deck). Of those it only taps for 2 for 5 of them (5% of the deck). I don't think I ever activated it to return a changeling. For card advantage + ramp I think Herald's Horn/Dragon's Hoard are just better. A lot of my mana sinks aren't Myrs (Didgeridoo, Moggcatcher, etc) and this just does nothing for those cards which feels real bad. These are basically the same reasons I cut Urza's Incubator.

I can see a much stronger argument for Myr Reservoir if you're running literally any general other than The Ur-Dragon since you'll have a lot higher of a chance of needing colorless mana.

[shifthappen1]

A few interesting cards I don't think were discussed before:

Righteous Valkyrie , Cyclone Summoner , Elvish Warmaster , Reflections of Littjara , Basalt Ravager , Glimpse the Cosmos , Skemfar Shadowsage , Littjara Kinseekers , The Bears of Littjara , Moritte of the Frost , Tyrite Sanctum ,

thats about all the tribal cards I could find.
I'm not sure if the lifegain from the Righteous Valkyrie and the anthem are enough to make it worth inclusion.
Elvish Warmaster looks like it can somewhat pump your whole board like mirror entity in some ways. not quite its level of awesomeness, but its an interesting alternative, even if a worse one.
Glimpse the Cosmos ends up being a look almost like a scry 6 draw 2 for 3 mana, which is pretty good for the mana cost. Filtering + draw for somewhat cheap seems pretty nice. No idea what would even be cut for it.
Moritte of the Frost I'm not sure about. at its worse its a land for way too much mana, but doubling up on other good stuff could be worth it, not sure if it can be good or not.
Cyclone Summoner is a one sided board wipe. Sorcery speed since it has to be cast from the hand, but, assuming you can somehow get it to have all creature types, you'll be able to bounce and use it over and over again.

The rest seems okay-ish, not sure if anything in there could be good enough to replace anything else, but I didn't start testing a changeling deck yet in those rare times I can play mtg, so I may be missing things.

Edit: Well darn, it looks like you already did notice Glimpse the Cosmos . What did you replace with it?

[materpillar]

Reflections of Littjara

Currently testing this card. The nombo with Didgeridoo and Cryptic Gateway is unfortunate. Might still be worth it though.

The Bears of Littjara

I'd like to test this card but I don't know what to cut for it. I much prefer my changelings to be 1 mana not three. I don't know if this is better than Graveshifter or whatnot. Also, it is a nombo with things like Walker of Secret Ways which are the cornerstone of my build.

I'm not sure if the lifegain from the Righteous Valkyrie and the anthem are enough to make it worth inclusion.

It does go infinite with Hibernation Sliver and some work. I think I prefer Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves personally. Again, I don't try to go wide though. If you're making a bunch of tokens this could be worth.

Elvish Warmaster looks like it can somewhat pump your whole board like mirror entity in some ways. not quite its level of awesomeness, but its an interesting alternative, even if a worse one.

Only triggering once a turn is pretty medium. If you're trying to go a more token heavy route it is probably worth a test. Also, Wirewood Hivemaster exists, and might do this job better. I have a hard time seeing mini-overrun being worth it, you'd rather just use Mirror Entity.

Moritte of the Frost I'm not sure about. at its worse its a land for way too much mana, but doubling up on other good stuff could be worth it, not sure if it can be good or not.

I should probably be playing this... I just don't know what to cut.

Cyclone Summoner is a one sided board wipe. Sorcery speed since it has to be cast from the hand, but, assuming you can somehow get it to have all creature types, you'll be able to bounce and use it over and over again.

Maskwood Nexus doesn't do the thing you want. You'd need Unnatural Selection to turn it into something other than a wizard or giant. I think it's just too expensive to try and get this loop happening. 7 mana is a lot. I think Whelming Wave or Realm-Cloaked Giant // Cast Off are just better versions of this.

Edit: Well darn, it looks like you already did notice Glimpse the Cosmos . What did you replace with it?

I cut Higure, the Still Wind, which is a shame because Higure, the Still Wind was really fun. Just too slow.

[offspring]

Small update from my side. Got my hands on a Cryptic Gateway again, so that's going straight in, as well as Spellstutter Sprite and Masked Vandal and Mistwalker to further lower the average cmc. I'm going to include Changeling Titan again based on your advice, and I'm going to test Elder Pine of Jukai for some jank.

Out: Cultivate, Webweaver Changeling, Cairn Wanderer, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Venomous Changeling, Descendants' Path.

On top of that, I decided to take a look at my basic lands. Don't know what you guys are running (if any - I do run 11 mainly because of my elf package) but I thought the Lorwyn Panoramas would be a great stylish flavor win (I use a selection of these since I don't run enough basics to use all of 'em):



As for my remaining forests, I choose the Kamigawa panorama:

[materpillar]

Small update from my side. Got my hands on a Cryptic Gateway again, so that's going straight in, as well as Spellstutter Sprite and Masked Vandal and Mistwalker to further lower the average cmc. I'm going to include Changeling Titan again based on your advice, and I'm going to test Elder Pine of Jukai for some jank.

Out: Cultivate, Webweaver Changeling, Cairn Wanderer, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Venomous Changeling, Descendants' Path.

I'm curious to know how well Spellstutter Sprite and Changeling Titan work out for you.

Shame to see Venomous Changeling going. I've locked some people off their general with it and Swarmyard + Contested Cliffs. I can see how it could heavily underperform for others though.

Cutting Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero just feels so bad. You just want to play her because she's awesome but she's just not good enough.

On top of that, I decided to take a look at my basic lands. Don't know what you guys are running (if any - I do run 11 mainly because of my elf package) but I thought the Lorwyn Panoramas would be a great stylish flavor win (I use a selection of these since I don't run enough basics to use all of 'em):

I'm not currently running any basics because I'm effectively only playing in "Low" power on PlayEDH so I don't expect to run into any non-basic hate. I'm also maxing out on silly utility lands like Elephant Graveyard and Sliver Hive so my mana-base is really really tight.

My favorite basics are the unhinged lands, they were what I was running when I had basics.

Lorwyn Panoramas are a great choice. Those lands are extremely pretty.

[darrenhabib]

The final issue this deck has is Humility/Overwhelming Splendor. I strongly recommend against doing anything other than immediately conceding if these resolve as your only out is Knowledge Exploitation for a disenchant effect or someone else killing the player who cast them. Torpor Orb is also rough but not nearly as impossible to deal with.

Rootgrapple is the card you are wanting.

[Tribbles]

I feel like more Tribal cards could fit nicely into this list, potentially? Rootgrapple as previously mentioned, and there are two counters in Sage's Dousing and Faerie Trickery that would be more on theme.

[EonAon]

I know Coat of Arms and Stoneforge Masterwork are pretty much off the table as far as suggestions go. But if one ever did hit the table, has anyone ever done the calculations on how high the P/T of this type of deck would go? I mean its pretty much I win at a certain point but I really don't know how high a changeling would get.

[materpillar]

The final issue this deck has is Humility/Overwhelming Splendor. I strongly recommend against doing anything other than immediately conceding if these resolve as your only out is Knowledge Exploitation for a disenchant effect or someone else killing the player who cast them. Torpor Orb is also rough but not nearly as impossible to deal with.

Rootgrapple is the card you are wanting.

I'm aware of Rootgrapple but 4G is a lot. Honestly, I think putting Harmonic Sliver in my deck and insta-scooping to Humility will probably result in an overall higher win % than running Rootgrapple. I've only bumped into Overwhelming Splendor a couple of times personally. Still I'll add that card to the section in case someone finds themselves facing off against Humility a lot in their meta.

I feel like more Tribal cards could fit nicely into this list, potentially? Rootgrapple as previously mentioned, and there are two counters in Sage's Dousing and Faerie Trickery that would be more on theme.

My list is extremely tight actually, wizards keep printing new, powerful tribal cards. I've got a 1-3 slots that are a rotating test spot (currently Reflections of Littjara/Bounty of Skemfar/Spellstutter Sprite) but every other spell I've cast the card and been happy about it. The only two spells I'm running not based on power level are Endemic Plague and Elder Pine of Jukai and that's because reading them to opponents is a delightful experience. They're both solid cards though, just not fantastic fantastic.

Sage's Dousing is cute in that I can hold up mana for Didgeridoo or Moggcatcher and use those if I don't need the counter. Having it be a Mana Leak and not Counterspell really turns me off it though.

Faerie Trickery doesn't fit my theme closely enough because it doesn't increase changeling tribal types. Similarly to why I avoid Rend Flesh (although that has been outclassed by Dire Tactics which I'm not running at the moment even though it is on theme).

I know Coat of Arms and Stoneforge Masterwork are pretty much off the table as far as suggestions go. But if one ever did hit the table, has anyone ever done the calculations on how high the P/T of this type of deck would go? I mean its pretty much I win at a certain point but I really don't know how high a changeling would get.

45 creatures in the deck. +1 for a commander. +1 for Irregular Cohort. Throw in Maskwood Nexus and all of your creatures are +46/+46 (not counting opposing creatures, each of which will give your team +1/+1).

Coat of Arms and Stoneforge Masterwork are both playable if you're going more tokens (using Najeela, the Blade-Blossom or whomever). I just don't make tokens, and don't want to cast it and die to my opponents Avenger of Zendikar. My build has ample ways to end the game, most of them are good in other situations outside of just ending the game so I personally find little value in adding it. Basically I see Coat of Arms as a super overrun, which is fine but not where my list is at. Stoneforge Masterwork is similar except less risky but also way less upside.

[Moonlighter]

Chiming in here to note excitement about this. I'm probably going to take apart my Crouching Tazri, hidden Zada deck to build into this. It'll be a slow transition, but as you've pointed out, a lot of the core pieces to make this great are pretty cheap, and I already have Harabaz Druid and Sea Gate Loremaster in there, which will complement and add gas pretty quick. Tazri/Zada is pretty aggressive combo, and this feels a lot more enjoyable and less linear.

[materpillar]

Chiming in here to note excitement about this. I'm probably going to take apart my Crouching Tazri, hidden Zada deck to build into this. It'll be a slow transition, but as you've pointed out, a lot of the core pieces to make this great are pretty cheap, and I already have Harabaz Druid and Sea Gate Loremaster in there, which will complement and add gas pretty quick. Tazri/Zada is pretty aggressive combo, and this feels a lot more enjoyable and less linear.

If you didn't want to totally murder your deck you could probably make some unholy abomination with Orvar, the All-Form + Zada, Hedron Grinder + Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Wings of Velis Vel tribal tribal spell slinger.

Tribal tribal with spell slinger subtheme... I've never considered this angle.
That sounds amazingly stupid... hrmm... I wonder... what's your current decklist? For science.

[Moonlighter]

In my group, a slow mana base is allowed. I have a couple of spendy cards, but that's all stuff we've drafted. No one's running the good fetches or duals where I play. In short, please forgive the "everything comes in tapped but for some reason I have Mana Drain." I happened to pull an Orvar and he went straight in. Ironically fits both. Deck is largely an old Kess deck and a Zada deck merged into one.

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Poor Man's Tazri/Zada

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 General Tazri

Creatures

1 Den Protector

1 Coralhelm Guide

1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Heliod's Pilgrim

1 Harabaz Druid

1 Sea Gate Loremaster

1 Kess Dissident Mage

1 Kalastria Healer

1 Orvar the All-Form

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn

1 Zada, Hedron Grinder

1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers

1 Purphuros, God of the Forge

1 Joiner Adept

1 Beastcaller Savant

1 Fyndhorn Elves

1 Avacyn's Pilgrim

1 Skyshround Elf

1 Dualcaster Mage

1 Quirion Elves

1 Elves of Deep Shadow

Artifacts

1 Fellwar Stone

1 Sol Ring

1 Swiftfoot Boots

1 Arcane Signet

1 Primal Amulet

1 Darksteel Ingot

1 Lightning Greaves

1 Traveler's Amulet

1 Thought Vessel

Planeswalker

1 Samut, Tyrant Smasher

Instants

1 Otherworldly Journey

1 Blazing Shoal

1 Accelerate

1 Narset's Reversal

1 Chaos Warp

1 Reality Shift

1 Opt

1 Desperate Ritual

1 Silence

1 Apostle's Blessing

1 Telling Time

1 Comet Storm

1 Boros Charm

1 Expedite

1 Banishing Knack

1 Mana Drain

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Nature's Claim

1 Refocus

1 Crimson Wisps

1 Counterspell

1 Retraction Helix

1 Cloudshift

1 Slip Through Space

Sorcery

1 Heat Shimmer

1 Kodama's Reach

1 Vandalblast

1 Twinflame

1 Life // Death

1 By Force

1 Past in Flames

1 Fiery Gambit

1 Crux of Fate

1 Kari Zev's Expertise

Enchantments

1 Pemmin's Aura

1 Mass Hysteria

1 Psionic Gift

1 Descendent's Path

Lands

1 Swamp

1 Plains

1 Mountain

1 Island

1 Seaside Citadel

1 Alchemist's Refuge

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Rogue's Passage

1 Temple of Triumph

1 Opulent Palace

1 Temple of the False God

1 Sandsteppe Citadel

1 Terramorphic Expanse

1 Dragonskull Summit

1 Arcane Sanctum

1 Sunken Hollow

1 Emergence Zone

1 Mortuary Mire

1 Grand Coliseum

1 Spectator Seating

1 Nomad Outpost

1 Frontier Bivouac

1 Tower of the Magistrate

1 Rejuvenating Springs

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Terrain Generator

1 Undergrowth Stadium

1 Crumbling Necropolis

1 Jungle Shrine

1 Savage Lands

1 Exotic Orchard

1 Command Tower

Approximate Total Cost:

[offspring]

In short, please forgive the "everything comes in tapped but for some reason I have Mana Drain."

Oh man my playgroup used to be like this and I wish it was still like that. There's been sort of an arms race going on and it's really hard to get back to the casual state where we once were.

Nice to see you on the thread, looking forward to what you're going to build. There are certainly a number of pretty decent and fun budget ways to run this deck and have loads of fun.

[materpillar]

Oh man my playgroup used to be like this and I wish it was still like that. There's been sort of an arms race going on and it's really hard to get back to the casual state where we once were.

I agree with this completely.

In my group, a slow mana base is allowed. I have a couple of spendy cards, but that's all stuff we've drafted. No one's running the good fetches or duals where I play. In short, please forgive the "everything comes in tapped but for some reason I have Mana Drain." I happened to pull an Orvar and he went straight in. Ironically fits both. Deck is largely an old Kess deck and a Zada deck merged into one.

Neat! I honestly don't really want to give you much advice and cause you to slide towards power creep land. I think EDH is much more enjoyable at the powerlevel you're playing than where my games usually land.

A couple of notes of minor notes, it looks like you're only playing 32 lands. That's pretty low even with all your mana dorks, you might want to cut a couple of cards to slot some more lands in.

Playing Terrain Generator with only 4 basic lands gave me a bit of a giggle. That's pretty optimistic shall we say.

[Moonlighter]

Oh man my playgroup used to be like this and I wish it was still like that. There's been sort of an arms race going on and it's really hard to get back to the casual state where we once were.

I agree with this completely.

In my group, a slow mana base is allowed. I have a couple of spendy cards, but that's all stuff we've drafted. No one's running the good fetches or duals where I play. In short, please forgive the "everything comes in tapped but for some reason I have Mana Drain." I happened to pull an Orvar and he went straight in. Ironically fits both. Deck is largely an old Kess deck and a Zada deck merged into one.

Neat! I honestly don't really want to give you much advice and cause you to slide towards power creep land. I think EDH is much more enjoyable at the powerlevel you're playing than where my games usually land.

A couple of notes of minor notes, it looks like you're only playing 32 lands. That's pretty low even with all your mana dorks, you might want to cut a couple of cards to slot some more lands in.

Playing Terrain Generator with only 4 basic lands gave me a bit of a giggle. That's pretty optimistic shall we say.

Whoops on the Terrain Generator. Pretty solid oversight, leaving that in there. In general, do you guys think taplands or basics are better in decks like this, in a playgroup like mine? This deck tends to do well when I bring it out and I haven't been mana-screwed yet - but I haven't had a full pod in a year - it's been me and my son for the most part, although I'll get a chance here in a few to play with him and a friend of his from work (we're all comfortable with the relative risk and we're all relatively isolated). I have two decks that rushcombo2win and it's not as enjoyable as it once was. My other decks are death and taxes Alesha and a new Xena-Gun deck, which hasn't seen play.

I have some more competitive friends I might be able to see within a month or so, but I can keep my near cEDH Selvala, Explorer Returned deck on hand for them, or the aforementioned Alesha. In this deck, I'm thinking I'll cut Tazri for The Ur-Dragon, and slot in as many cheap changelings as I can get my hands on (I have access to a box of Modern Horizons draft chaff, so I should be able to grab a few of the core ones). I already have a Crib Swap laying around, and most of the other cards I'd want are pretty cheap. I think I want to match constraints (all cards require naming a creature type or having a creature type) and no more than 4 cards per tribe, because I've been wanting to get "more Johnny less Spike" in my EDH decks.

PS thanks offspring.

[materpillar]

Whoops on the Terrain Generator. Pretty solid oversight, leaving that in there. In general, do you guys think taplands or basics are better in decks like this, in a playgroup like mine? This deck tends to do well when I bring it out and I haven't been mana-screwed yet -

Both? I'd lean towards taplands. Being able to cast your spells a turn later is way better than never being able to cast your spells. My rule of thumb is one of each basic in every 5 color deck at a minimum (with 1 more of any specific color that I'm super heavy on so I can fetch double of that with Evolving Wilds or whatnot). I've found that once I hit two of each basic I struggled to cast spells consistently.

Your deck is basically GUR with a splash of WB. I'd lean towards building your manabase with that in mind.

Mortuary Mire is probably greedy. As are Alchemist's Refuge, Emergence Zone and Terrain Generator. Your mana base is pretty budget so I'd recommend steering away from the colorless utility lands for now unless you find yourself activating them very consistently. The World Tree does wonders, especially if you have a couple of ways to tutor it.

In this deck, I'm thinking I'll cut Tazri for The Ur-Dragon, and slot in as many cheap changelings as I can get my hands on (I have access to a box of Modern Horizons draft chaff, so I should be able to grab a few of the core ones). I already have a Crib Swap laying around, and most of the other cards I'd want are pretty cheap. I think I want to match constraints (all cards require naming a creature type or having a creature type) and no more than 4 cards per tribe, because I've been wanting to get "more Johnny less Spike" in my EDH decks.

In your slower meta The Ur-Dragon might be unnecessary. If you want to keep it more of a janky spellslinger / go-wide deck General Tazri/Najeela, the Blade-Blossom are probably solid commander choices too. I guess I'd recommend giving the deck a few spins before dropping $35 on The Ur-Dragon.

[Moonlighter]

In your slower meta The Ur-Dragon might be unnecessary. If you want to keep it more of a janky spellslinger / go-wide deck General Tazri/Najeela, the Blade-Blossom are probably solid commander choices too. I guess I'd recommend giving the deck a few spins before dropping $35 on The Ur-Dragon.

I don't remember why, but Ur-Dragon was one of the two precons I bought that year (Inalla being the other), so he's just laying around. I like the idea of using the Ur-Dragon as a potential wincon. I'll ponder your suggestions. Not changes I have to make any time soon, and I'll incorporate your feedback about the manabase. Question - protection and resiliency was a concern in your deck. Steely Resolve have a place in there? Or is the loss of self-targeting too much.