30+ Creature Type Changeling Tribal

narglfrob
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Post by narglfrob » 2 years ago

Congrats on the primer status!

I've updated my moxfield list with a bit of content discussing my gameplan and approach to this archetype.

A few items for discussion:
  • Scourge of Valkas continues to be the best win condition in my deck, to the point where my deck is warping around enabling it. Highly recommend testing it if you haven't done so already. The issues with the mana cost are mitigated by the fact that between Magda, Brazen Outlaw and Pyre of Heroes, your only actually casting Scourge of Valkas about 1/3rd of the time.
  • I am running 15 pieces of card draw, as compared to 7-8 I think from the list in the primer. The quantity of card draw has felt/tested very well, giving me good velocity through the deck in a typical game. Interested to hear your thoughts on the increase to card draw.

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offspring
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Post by offspring » 2 years ago

narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
Congrats on the primer status!

I've updated my moxfield list with a bit of content discussing my gameplan and approach to this archetype.

A few items for discussion:
  • Scourge of Valkas continues to be the best win condition in my deck, to the point where my deck is warping around enabling it. Highly recommend testing it if you haven't done so already. The issues with the mana cost are mitigated by the fact that between Magda, Brazen Outlaw and Pyre of Heroes, your only actually casting Scourge of Valkas about 1/3rd of the time.
  • I am running 15 pieces of card draw, as compared to 7-8 I think from the list in the primer. The quantity of card draw has felt/tested very well, giving me good velocity through the deck in a typical game. Interested to hear your thoughts on the increase to card draw.

I haven't run Scourge of Valkas eer in this list, but have some experience with it in a former Dragons deck. It's strong, and I think it might be a good option for my list as well. However, the three red pips do put me off a little.

As for card draw, I did a quick count and I'm running 14 myself, not counting the slower Seahunter et al. I would, right now, never cut one of my draw options and I'd be through the roof if they print another Wirewood Savage of some sort. Can I ask why you're not running Skyshroud Poacher nor Moggcatcher? They're top of the bill in my experience - I'd play them over Pyre of Heroes without a doubt. They might not find that many lords in your list, but Sparksmith and Priest of Titania might make it worth it by themselves. Having said that, your being a fan of Scourge of Valkas and bouncy stuff, have you ever considered Zirilan of the Claw? You might quite easily be able to work around the exile effect by bouncing whatever you looked for to your hand, and it finds exactly the peace you want.


Then, a gameplay update: have I ever mentioned I love this deck to death? I have 14 decks, a couple of which I've been playing for years, but this list has become my absolute favorite mainly since Kaldheim. I'ts so consistent ever since, that even though it's not really competitive in my meta, every game I catch myself thinking "I don't care if I lose, I'm having tons of fun. Look at this deck go!". I had a blast again in a 1v1 last night.

Summary: I started with a hand with four lands, one of which was a Mutavault, a Cateran Summons, Reaper King and a Merrow Commerce. Not really good, but I figured the Cateran Summons would get me going. I found a Seahunter with it, which - darnit - got countered, and my reaper king was quickly destroyed. However, I did draw into a Cryptbreaker. I was quickly down to one card in hand - a land - which I discarded to create a Zombie. With the Cryptbreaker, the token and the Mutavault I drew a Maskwood Nexus, after which each of those became merfolk for my Merrow Commerce - two extra draws per turn. Next card... Magda, Brazen Outlaw. Two cards and six treasures each turn, and for five find ANY creature in your deck. Since this wasn't answered, it was over really quickly. Lessons:

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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
Congrats on the primer status!

I've updated my moxfield list with a bit of content discussing my gameplan and approach to this archetype.

A few items for discussion:
  • Scourge of Valkas continues to be the best win condition in my deck, to the point where my deck is warping around enabling it. Highly recommend testing it if you haven't done so already. The issues with the mana cost are mitigated by the fact that between Magda, Brazen Outlaw and Pyre of Heroes, your only actually casting Scourge of Valkas about 1/3rd of the time.
  • I am running 15 pieces of card draw, as compared to 7-8 I think from the list in the primer. The quantity of card draw has felt/tested very well, giving me good velocity through the deck in a typical game. Interested to hear your thoughts on the increase to card draw.
I did a brief comparison of our decklists. It looks like you cut the Changeling Titan + flash package and all artifact ramp. You also cut some of my cuter interaction like Peer Pressure/Tuktuk Scrapper. Then you replaced that with more card draw and a lower to the ground changeling curve.

I'd imagine that your deck is playing out closer to an Edric, Spymaster of Trest while mine is playing out more controlling into combo wins. Your deck feels like it would have an awful time recovering if someone cast Descend upon the Sinful while Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is on board. Similarly, it seems like it would have a bad time with t4 Wrath of God into T6 Wrath of God, especially if you haven't gotten Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in the graveyard. I think you've traded increased weakness to wraths for resiliency against spot removal.

I haven't felt the need to add more draw spells, but I also pretty consistently ramp into casting The Ur-Dragon the majority of games. I think that probably reduces my need to up my draw spell count.

Any reason you're not running Spawning Kraken, Cover of Darkness, or Notorious Throng? They all seem to be doing exactly what you want to be doing.


As for Scourge of Valkas, the card is fantastic. I'm mostly not running it because I'm running Dragon Tempest. Part of the reason I like this deck so much is because it has so many ways to try and close out the game. I'd rather keep those more diverse with Lathliss, Dragon Queen making 5/5s instead of Dragon Tempest 2 with Scourge of Valkas. Also, RRR is scary.

How's Ayula, Queen Among Bears working out for you? I found her to be underwhelming. How're Sparksmith, Spellstutter Sprite, and Pyre of Heroes? Merrow Reejerey still doing work? I never considered Varina, Lich Queen or Thieves' Fortune. Neat, they seem pretty good for what you're doing.
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
Then, a gameplay update: have I ever mentioned I love this deck to death? I have 14 decks, a couple of which I've been playing for years, but this list has become my absolute favorite mainly since Kaldheim. I'ts so consistent ever since, that even though it's not really competitive in my meta, every game I catch myself thinking "I don't care if I lose, I'm having tons of fun. Look at this deck go!". I had a blast again in a 1v1 last night.
Noice! :love:
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
Summary: I started with a hand with four lands, one of which was a Mutavault, a Cateran Summons, Reaper King and a Merrow Commerce. Not really good, but I figured the Cateran Summons would get me going. I found a Seahunter with it, which - darnit - got countered, and my reaper king was quickly destroyed. However, I did draw into a Cryptbreaker. I was quickly down to one card in hand - a land - which I discarded to create a Zombie. With the Cryptbreaker, the token and the Mutavault I drew a Maskwood Nexus, after which each of those became merfolk for my Merrow Commerce - two extra draws per turn. Next card... Magda, Brazen Outlaw. Two cards and six treasures each turn, and for five find ANY creature in your deck. Since this wasn't answered, it was over really quickly. Lessons:
Cateran Summons finds Moggcatcher and Seahunter? That's reaaaaally good to know. I didn't even realize that. xD

Maskwood Nexus is a huge house. I think the best card in the deck is The World Tree. It effectively immediately wins the game upon activation/color fixes/doesn't take a spell slot.

Since I've revamped my mana, I wonder if I can slot Azami, Lady of Scrolls back in. :thinking:

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Post by offspring » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Cateran Summons finds Moggcatcher and Seahunter? That's reaaaaally good to know. I didn't even realize that. xD

Maskwood Nexus is a huge house. I think the best card in the deck is The World Tree. It effectively immediately wins the game upon activation/color fixes/doesn't take a spell slot.

Since I've revamped my mana, I wonder if I can slot Azami, Lady of Scrolls back in.
YES there it is. My first real contribution to this thread, haha. I stumbled upon the Mercenary-interaction around the time I was looking to add rebels and/or mercenaries to my tribal package (ran Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero for quite a while as well). I only realized it also found changelings after deciding to run it to find those two you mentioned. Funny how that works. Also weird to come to the conclusion that in this list, mercenaries are far superior to rebels, whereas in any tribal deck focusing on either of those two, rebels are hands down the better option. I still tutor a lot for Seahunter with it since that in turn finds Merrow Commerce. Otherwise, my go-to options are Universal Automaton or Shapesharer I think.

I haven't had The World Tree on the battlefield yet. I find myself looking for ways to find utility lands lately, since the package seems to grow and grow: The World Tree, Contested Cliffs, Mutavault and Swarmyard all do a lot of work. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any good and on-theme cards that could fit this role. Knight of the Reliquary would fit in to the knights-niche quite well, and Expedition Map is good to fix early, but both aren't tribal-oriented in any way. Am I missing something here, or am I right to be waiting for a card like that?

Oh, and yes, I really think you should consider running Azami. Imagine having her on the battlefield with Magda, Brazen Outlaw. She isn't that hard to find these days with all the your-creatures-are-changelings-cards-at-all-times running around.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

offspring wrote:
2 years ago
I haven't had The World Tree on the battlefield yet. I find myself looking for ways to find utility lands lately, since the package seems to grow and grow: The World Tree, Contested Cliffs, Mutavault and Swarmyard all do a lot of work. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any good and on-theme cards that could fit this role. Knight of the Reliquary would fit in to the knights-niche quite well, and Expedition Map is good to fix early, but both aren't tribal-oriented in any way. Am I missing something here, or am I right to be waiting for a card like that?
I am running Wargate and Pir's Whim for that myself. I think Wargate is really nice but your mana fixing needs to be REALLY good to hit that on curve. I am running all the ABU Duals and Fetchlands so I have a spicy land setup to hopefully support it. I really like how it can be a utility land ramp or fixing ramp early but it scales into the game really nicely as a versatile tutor for later.

I haven't really seen much on the tribal land ramping side of things especially not for lands that don't have the types to them (swamp etc). Most of the tribal based ramp seems to be getting some level of mana dork or treasure generation.
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Post by offspring » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
I haven't had The World Tree on the battlefield yet. I find myself looking for ways to find utility lands lately, since the package seems to grow and grow: The World Tree, Contested Cliffs, Mutavault and Swarmyard all do a lot of work. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any good and on-theme cards that could fit this role. Knight of the Reliquary would fit in to the knights-niche quite well, and Expedition Map is good to fix early, but both aren't tribal-oriented in any way. Am I missing something here, or am I right to be waiting for a card like that?
I am running Wargate and Pir's Whim for that myself. I think Wargate is really nice but your mana fixing needs to be REALLY good to hit that on curve. I am running all the ABU Duals and Fetchlands so I have a spicy land setup to hopefully support it. I really like how it can be a utility land ramp or fixing ramp early but it scales into the game really nicely as a versatile tutor for later.

I haven't really seen much on the tribal land ramping side of things especially not for lands that don't have the types to them (swamp etc). Most of the tribal based ramp seems to be getting some level of mana dork or treasure generation.
Yeah, I know both of those and have run Wargate a lot in the past. I guess my manabase could support it (running 9 fetches and 7 (shock)duals, all based on the pips I play), and it could be OK. On the one hand, I don't really like the fact that it's a sorcery (yeah, we're spoiled) but on the other, it's another way to get out our most important nonland permanents. It could maybe replace a ramp spell or even a changeling, since it kinda doubles for the latter. Food for thought, I hadn't considered it before. Since I still run Kodama's Reach that might be a consideration, but that's pretty big downgrade to fixing my mana. Dunno, might try that, thanks for the suggestion!

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

offspring wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I know both of those and have run Wargate a lot in the past. I guess my manabase could support it (running 9 fetches and 7 (shock)duals, all based on the pips I play), and it could be OK. On the one hand, I don't really like the fact that it's a sorcery (yeah, we're spoiled) but on the other, it's another way to get out our most important nonland permanents. It could maybe replace a ramp spell or even a changeling, since it kinda doubles for the latter. Food for thought, I hadn't considered it before. Since I still run Kodama's Reach that might be a consideration, but that's pretty big downgrade to fixing my mana. Dunno, might try that, thanks for the suggestion!
If you aren't already running them I might also suggest trying out some Triomes. I think its important not to go too crazy with them but there are definitely times that you get a shockland in tapped or something that getting a Triome is usually just an upgrade over in those cases. I am currently trying out running 4 of them in place of shocklands as I can always get my ABU duels if I want something untapped but I think the triomes give me superior fixing in cases where considering a tapped shockland is what I would otherwise do. The downside is going to primarily be when you draw a Triome rather than fetching them up but I also run some land fetch effects like Farseek, Nature's Lore, and Three Visits where getting a Triome could also be very useful (in cases where I don't get an untapped land and need said mana now).

If you have some fetchlands I think its huge to have at least 1-2 of them. I know that ETB tapped lands are hated on but keeping them at a reasonable number and fetching them into play when its not important to have every scrap of mana can be big for your down the road fixing capabilities.
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Post by narglfrob » 2 years ago

offspring wrote:
2 years ago
As for card draw, I did a quick count and I'm running 14 myself, not counting the slower Seahunter et al. I would, right now, never cut one of my draw options and I'd be through the roof if they print another Wirewood Savage of some sort. Can I ask why you're not running Skyshroud Poacher nor Moggcatcher? They're top of the bill in my experience - I'd play them over Pyre of Heroes without a doubt. They might not find that many lords in your list, but Sparksmith and Priest of Titania might make it worth it by themselves. Having said that, your being a fan of Scourge of Valkas and bouncy stuff, have you ever considered Zirilan of the Claw? You might quite easily be able to work around the exile effect by bouncing whatever you looked for to your hand, and it finds exactly the peace you want.
I'm on the fence about Moggcatcher et. al. because they are slow, telegraphed and threatening/powerful. Once my opponents know what I can do with them, they will attract attention / increase my threat profile / act as a removal magnet, and I am unable to get value out of them without un-tapping with them. Zirilan of the Claw suffers from the same problem, but is indeed sweet. For me Pyre of Heroes is the best of the bunch since you can get value out of it right away, which I value highly, despite having to jump through more hoops. For instance, you can cast Pyre, Tutor for Merrow Reejerey and combo win on the same turn, which is something Moggcatcher et. al. can't do. Seahunter currently makes the cut because it gets Merrow Reejerey which is an incredibly lethal / dangerous card in general, and can untap Seahunter for extra tutors in the same turn.
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
Cateran Summons would get me going. I found a Seahunter with it
Wow, I never realized one could do that haha.
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
You know what, I should really try Cryptbreaker, I've thought about him a lot but never pulled the trigger.
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
This is the way.
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I did a brief comparison of our decklists. It looks like you cut the Changeling Titan + flash package and all artifact ramp. You also cut some of my cuter interaction like Peer Pressure/Tuktuk Scrapper. Then you replaced that with more card draw and a lower to the ground changeling curve.

I'd imagine that your deck is playing out closer to an Edric, Spymaster of Trest while mine is playing out more controlling into combo wins. Your deck feels like it would have an awful time recovering if someone cast Descend upon the Sinful while Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is on board. Similarly, it seems like it would have a bad time with t4 Wrath of God into T6 Wrath of God, especially if you haven't gotten Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in the graveyard. I think you've traded increased weakness to wraths for resiliency against spot removal.
Yes, I would say this is accurate, I have traded away resiliency for speed. This is probably a function of my meta, which tends to be light on board-wipes, uses more spot removal, and has people going for their own wins which needs to be raced.
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Any reason you're not running Spawning Kraken, Cover of Darkness, or Notorious Throng? They all seem to be doing exactly what you want to be doing.
Spawning Kraken is sweet and I'm considering it, Notorious Throng is also sweet. I hand't been considering it, but I should be, damn so many cards!
As for Cover of Darkness, I don't think evasion is worth the card, I'd rather just play more gas.
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
As for Scourge of Valkas, the card is fantastic. I'm mostly not running it because I'm running Dragon Tempest. Part of the reason I like this deck so much is because it has so many ways to try and close out the game. I'd rather keep those more diverse with Lathliss, Dragon Queen making 5/5s instead of Dragon Tempest 2 with Scourge of Valkas. Also, RRR is scary.
That's fair, I can understand wanting to keep things varied. However if you want to win more you might consider dropping Dragon Tempest for Scourge of Valkas since its so much easier to tutor for, it can allow you to close out games with more consistency (if that's your objective, which it might not be. EDH isn't just about winning after-all)
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
How's Ayula, Queen Among Bears working out for you? I found her to be underwhelming. How're Sparksmith, Spellstutter Sprite, and Pyre of Heroes? Merrow Reejerey still doing work? I never considered Varina, Lich Queen or Thieves' Fortune. Neat, they seem pretty good for what you're doing.
  • Ayula, Queen Among Bears has been B, I highly value interaction that can stop broken cheap commanders from running away with the game, things like Mizzix of the Izmagnus, and Ayula does this decently with plenty of corner case upside.
  • Sparksmith has been an B+, similar to Ayula, except it can do it at instant speed which is a huge boon. The lifeloss is mitigated by me being more aggressive in general.
  • Spellstutter Sprite, untested.
  • Pyre of Heroes has been an A, it closes games extremely quickly if not dealt with. The most direct line to a win is to fetch Merrow Reejerey which (assuming I have a changeling in hand) can allow me to untap Pyre for multiple tutors, typically fetching Hibernation Sliver which should allow me to win on the spot. If I'm short on mana / gas I tend to get Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and pass the turn, which protects against a boardwipe, and Haakon can feed the Pyre with bodies.
  • Yes Merrow Reejerey has still been an A+, one of the most lethal cards in the deck imo by reducing all changelings cost by a coloured pip, and going near infinite with anything that taps to make 2+ mana or tutor.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
  • Ayula, Queen Among Bears has been B, I highly value interaction that can stop broken cheap commanders from running away with the game, things like Mizzix of the Izmagnus, and Ayula does this decently with plenty of corner case upside.
  • Sparksmith has been an B+, similar to Ayula, except it can do it at instant speed which is a huge boon. The lifeloss is mitigated by me being more aggressive in general.
  • Spellstutter Sprite, untested.
  • Pyre of Heroes has been an A, it closes games extremely quickly if not dealt with. The most direct line to a win is to fetch Merrow Reejerey which (assuming I have a changeling in hand) can allow me to untap Pyre for multiple tutors, typically fetching Hibernation Sliver which should allow me to win on the spot. If I'm short on mana / gas I tend to get Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and pass the turn, which protects against a boardwipe, and Haakon can feed the Pyre with bodies.
  • Yes Merrow Reejerey has still been an A+, one of the most lethal cards in the deck imo by reducing all changelings cost by a coloured pip, and going near infinite with anything that taps to make 2+ mana or tutor.
Its interesting that you are on Sparksmith. You might consider if Gempalm Incinerator might work better in that its instant speed and doesn't have a delay to its effect. It is a trade off of repeatable use for a single use effect but Incinerator drawing a card is really quite good. Even though Sparksmith is repeatable, it can add up on your life total assuming you can even get to use him multiple times. I have always been a little leery of creatures without haste with tap as removal effects just given how slow they can be to do their thing.

Its interesting to see Pyre of Heroes in use when already in green from the perspective that Birthing Pod is a card. I guess the turn you go to do it, it either costs more mana or 4 hp but I feel like pod is probably still the stronger effect in that it could take non chageling creatures and turn them into other things too. It is cool that Pyre is another tribal thing but I just don't know that its worth running over pod when in green.
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Post by narglfrob » 2 years ago

The delay on sparksmith is mitigated by the fact that it's so cheap, in my opinion. Also in decks like this, that tend to tap out on their turn, I prefer investing the Mana up front and then being able to activate for free at instant speed later, as opposed to having to hold up mana for the spell itself. With that being said, Gempalm incinerator is a fantastic card and I should probably be running both. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regarding Birthing Pod, yes it's a fantastic card but it's not a tribal card and thus does not fit within my decks self-imposed restrictions (all non lands must be tribal)

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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

offspring wrote:
2 years ago
YES there it is. My first real contribution to this thread, haha. I stumbled upon the Mercenary-interaction around the time I was looking to add rebels and/or mercenaries to my tribal package (ran Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero for quite a while as well). I only realized it also found changelings after deciding to run it to find those two you mentioned. Funny how that works. Also weird to come to the conclusion that in this list, mercenaries are far superior to rebels, whereas in any tribal deck focusing on either of those two, rebels are hands down the better option. I still tutor a lot for Seahunter with it since that in turn finds Merrow Commerce. Otherwise, my go-to options are Universal Automaton or Shapesharer I think.
I don't think this is your first real contribution at all. I used to use Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero to find Skyshroud Poacher when this deck was way durdlier. I just didn't make the mercenary connection at all. >.<

This line of play is certainly going into my brain for future reference.

Fun fact: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro lets Patron of the Vein tap for GG
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
I haven't had The World Tree on the battlefield yet. I find myself looking for ways to find utility lands lately, since the package seems to grow and grow: The World Tree, Contested Cliffs, Mutavault and Swarmyard all do a lot of work. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any good and on-theme cards that could fit this role. Knight of the Reliquary would fit in to the knights-niche quite well, and Expedition Map is good to fix early, but both aren't tribal-oriented in any way. Am I missing something here, or am I right to be waiting for a card like that?
I'm pretty sure there are no tribal cards that find any land. The only tribal cards that ramp lands that I'm aware of are Thunderherd Migration, Bounty of Skemfar, and Risen Reef (and to a much lesser extent Elder Pine of Jukai and Loam Dweller)
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
Oh, and yes, I really think you should consider running Azami. Imagine having her on the battlefield with Magda, Brazen Outlaw. She isn't that hard to find these days with all the your-creatures-are-changelings-cards-at-all-times running around.
Making cuts in this deck is so brutal now a days. D:
Not sure... maybe Gilt-Leaf Archdruid? Feels kinda bad.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
If you aren't already running them I might also suggest trying out some Triomes. I think its important not to go too crazy with them but there are definitely times that you get a shockland in tapped or something that getting a Triome is usually just an upgrade over in those cases. I am currently trying out running 4 of them in place of shocklands as I can always get my ABU duels if I want something untapped but I think the triomes give me superior fixing in cases where considering a tapped shockland is what I would otherwise do. The downside is going to primarily be when you draw a Triome rather than fetching them up but I also run some land fetch effects like Farseek, Nature's Lore, and Three Visits where getting a Triome could also be very useful (in cases where I don't get an untapped land and need said mana now).

If you have some fetchlands I think its huge to have at least 1-2 of them. I know that ETB tapped lands are hated on but keeping them at a reasonable number and fetching them into play when its not important to have every scrap of mana can be big for your down the road fixing capabilities.
I've been extremely happy with Ketria Triome for this exact reason. I've been wondering if I should cut Grand Coliseum for Zagoth Triome even. My deck is mostly GU. I wish I had a Tropical Island. :/
offspring wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I know both of those and have run Wargate a lot in the past. I guess my manabase could support it (running 9 fetches and 7 (shock)duals, all based on the pips I play), and it could be OK. On the one hand, I don't really like the fact that it's a sorcery (yeah, we're spoiled) but on the other, it's another way to get out our most important nonland permanents. It could maybe replace a ramp spell or even a changeling, since it kinda doubles for the latter. Food for thought, I hadn't considered it before. Since I still run Kodama's Reach that might be a consideration, but that's pretty big downgrade to fixing my mana. Dunno, might try that, thanks for the suggestion!
To be fair, Wargate for The World Tree gives you perfect mana once you hit 6 total. It's not card advantage like Kodama's Reach but if your mana can support it, I'd imagine Wargate will perform much better.

narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
That's fair, I can understand wanting to keep things varied. However if you want to win more you might consider dropping Dragon Tempest for Scourge of Valkas since its so much easier to tutor for, it can allow you to close out games with more consistency (if that's your objective, which it might not be. EDH isn't just about winning after-all)
This just hits that wrath vs spot removal again. Dragon Tempest is a lot harder for my opponents to remove. I also don't run any tutors that could find Scourge of Valkas outside of Maskwood Nexus silliness.

Also, Dragon Tempest gives The Ur-Dragon haste which is really relevant.
narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
[*]Yes Merrow Reejerey has still been an A+, one of the most lethal cards in the deck imo by reducing all changelings cost by a coloured pip, and going near infinite with anything that taps to make 2+ mana or tutor.
Gaea's Cradle seems extra busted with Merrow Reejerey if you happen to have one.

Huh... I wonder if I should migrate my Cradle over here. >.>

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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

First of all, congratulations for the primer!! Well deserved!!! Great work!!!
The deck is one of my most enjoyable to play in my collection. Strangely, also one of the most powerful too, despite the full tribal theme.

Secondly, my opinion about some card choices (I play a fast Haakon version with no Titan, et al Package):
- I love Pyre of Heroes. What I love the most is that, while I expected a very streamlined, "always do the same thing" approach with it, that was not the case. Except for the first card, which is always Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (to replay my sacrificed changelings and have mass removal insurance). But after that, the lines differ depending on the situation. It is not the boring card I feared it would be.
- On the other hand, Merrow Reejerey has been kinda mediocre for me. I understand how broken it can be, and trully, there have been such cases (Hi Sea Gate Loremaster!), but mostly it works best while I am already in a winning position.
- Scourge of Valkas is an MVP candidate, no question about it. The guy is also my most usual wincon. Have you ever made a Koma player ragequit by killing them and all their 16 serpents out of nowhere with 4 Scourges on play (Hi Shapesharer!)? You never forget the feeling. RRR is almost never an issue, but I also have a manabase full of triomes, duals, shocks and fetches, etc apart of the obligatory tribal ones. Perhaps that helps as well. IMHO, it is not Scourge OR Dragon Tempest. It is Scourge AND Dragon Tempest.
- Goblin Chirurgeon is excellent. Saved me many times and he is also a sac outlet for Haakon infinites.
- Cryptbreaker is also a good card. Apart from a cheap card that can discard Haakon, he easily provides CA. Also, Magda Synergy. However I am not sure I would have run him in a non-Haakon build. The same goes for Chirurgeon as well.
- Never drew Kraken mama to my playtests yet.
- I prefer Ayula, Queen Among Bears to Sparksmith. The dmg from Sparksmith can get real pretty fast if you tend to put as many changelings in play as possible early game, which the deck tends to do. I suspect that this may be a different case with the Champion combo version, which is more midrangey and tends to have less creatures in play. Finally, while Sparksmith can be triggered at instant speed, Ayula can be triggered multiple times/turn which can also be very crucial.
- Need to test Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Ofc she is busted, but I was too scared of the UUU. However since I have seen that Scourge of Valkas can be played with no problems, I can see her in the deck as well. Not sure if she directly competes a place with my Sea Gate Loremaster or I should run both of them. I suspect the latter.

EDIT: Whoever wants to marry Magda, Brazen Outlaw: Get in line. We are many.
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Post by narglfrob » 2 years ago

Sefir, do you have a link to your decklist? Sorry if its been posted in this thread already (you should include it in your signature!)

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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
Sefir, do you have a link to your decklist? Sorry if its been posted in this thread already (you should include it in your signature!)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3711923#paper
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I finally got some testing in on my list.

The Bears of Littjara - Anyone who isn't running this card, I would strongly suggest trying it out. I don't have a ton of testing (only 5ish games) but it was literally crazy every time I saw it. I saw it almost every game and I think its my favorite changeling right now. It comes with a changeling body, an anthem for changelings, and removal. I felt every part of the saga to be very relevant and effective and combined with how cheap it is to cast I really loved this card. Another great part of this is how it splits itself into multiple targets so even if someone has spot removal for the saga you still got your body out of the card. The removal element is also not fighting so you can gang up on bigger targets without losses. It was super impressive. One of the more impressive games I had with it I curved a changeling on turn 2 into turn three The Bears of Littjara. Swinging with a pair of 4/4s on turn four was actually quite good pressure and it made things really awkward for his commander who I got to free kill with the last part of the saga. My data was a little weird as all of my testing so far has been with 2/3 people in game but I still think this card is really good.

Realm-Cloaked Giant - This might be my favorite non changeling creature. He is also making me want to consider more creature to hand tutors like possibly Worldly Tutor because his showing was REALLY good for me. I was about to die when I chained together Congregation at Dawn + Growth Spiral to be able to tutor, draw, and cast him to not die at one point.

EDIT: Oh, not running vampiric tutor yet so I guess I would do that over worldly tutor.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
The Bears of Littjara - Anyone who isn't running this card, I would strongly suggest trying it out. I don't have a ton of testing (only 5ish games) but it was literally crazy every time I saw it. I saw it almost every game and I think its my favorite changeling right now. It comes with a changeling body, an anthem for changelings, and removal. I felt every part of the saga to be very relevant and effective and combined with how cheap it is to cast I really loved this card. Another great part of this is how it splits itself into multiple targets so even if someone has spot removal for the saga you still got your body out of the card. The removal element is also not fighting so you can gang up on bigger targets without losses. It was super impressive. One of the more impressive games I had with it I curved a changeling on turn 2 into turn three The Bears of Littjara. Swinging with a pair of 4/4s on turn four was actually quite good pressure and it made things really awkward for his commander who I got to free kill with the last part of the saga. My data was a little weird as all of my testing so far has been with 2/3 people in game but I still think this card is really good.
I've had my eye on The Bears of Littjara for a while. It's just a nombo with a huge portion of my deck. Doesn't work with my blink package (Kogla, the Titan Ape, Wirewood Symbiote, Walker of Secret Ways, Hibernation Sliver, Emiel the Blessed), with some random cast cards (Gilt-Leaf Archdruid, Elder Pine of Jukai, Didgeridoo, and Bounty of Skemfar) and to a lesser extent the tribal lands (Gilt-Leaf Palace/Cavern of Souls).

For my list currently it's competing with Graveshifter and Irregular Cohort at 3. I'd be massively surprised if it out performed either of those. That means that it's going against something like Avian Changeling and I'm unsure if an anthem + removal is worth an extra 1 over flying and blink synergies.

There's also Moritte of the Frost that is in my "testing" slot so it's hard for me to compare those 2. Maybe I'll consider if I think the bears are better than him.

That being said, I'm glad the Bears is working out really well for you. It seems way better than a lot of the Changelings that I run would be in your deck.
Realm-Cloaked Giant - This might be my favorite non changeling creature. He is also making me want to consider more creature to hand tutors like possibly Worldly Tutor because his showing was REALLY good for me. I was about to die when I chained together Congregation at Dawn + Growth Spiral to be able to tutor, draw, and cast him to not die at one point.
That's a pretty neat line there. Do you ever find yourself casting his 7/7 creature side or do you basically on wrath and then forget about him in exile?
Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
EDIT: Whoever wants to marry Magda, Brazen Outlaw: Get in line. We are many.
My favorite Magda, Brazen Outlaw play was when my opponent had her as his general. I copied her over the coarse of several turns with Shapesharer until I had enough tokens to find Maskwood Nexus and go infinite with my copy of her and Wirewood Symbiote.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I've had my eye on The Bears of Littjara for a while. It's just a nombo with a huge portion of my deck. Doesn't work with my blink package (Kogla, the Titan Ape, Wirewood Symbiote, Walker of Secret Ways, Hibernation Sliver, Emiel the Blessed), with some random cast cards (Gilt-Leaf Archdruid, Elder Pine of Jukai, Didgeridoo, and Bounty of Skemfar) and to a lesser extent the tribal lands (Gilt-Leaf Palace/Cavern of Souls).

For my list currently it's competing with Graveshifter and Irregular Cohort at 3. I'd be massively surprised if it out performed either of those. That means that it's going against something like Avian Changeling and I'm unsure if an anthem + removal is worth an extra 1 over flying and blink synergies.

There's also Moritte of the Frost that is in my "testing" slot so it's hard for me to compare those 2. Maybe I'll consider if I think the bears are better than him.

That being said, I'm glad the Bears is working out really well for you. It seems way better than a lot of the Changelings that I run would be in your deck.
That makes more sense now. I was curious why nobody else was running it lol. I have like.... no bounce, flicker, or on cast triggers in mine. My commander making my creatures indestructible was as far as I went on preserving my creatures (to be fair its a rather good stickiness measure). For me, I would say that it did definitely out perform Graveshifter and Irregular Cohort but I don't have any means of flickering, bouncing, or rezing them so that probably changes the dynamic some.
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Realm-Cloaked Giant - This might be my favorite non changeling creature. He is also making me want to consider more creature to hand tutors like possibly Worldly Tutor because his showing was REALLY good for me. I was about to die when I chained together Congregation at Dawn + Growth Spiral to be able to tutor, draw, and cast him to not die at one point.
That's a pretty neat line there. Do you ever find yourself casting his 7/7 creature side or do you basically on wrath and then forget about him in exile?
Most of the time when I was casting him it was as I ran my opponent down. I would need to test it more in multiplayer to really say but I suspect in a lot of cases casting the 7/7 side of him would be something I would do only if I don't have better things to do which would probably be along the lines of I don't have enough draw but even then, I am playing him 99% for his wrath. The fact that I can creature tutor a wrath is really handy though.

To some extent, I suspect that Realm-Cloaked Giant is going to have a better performance with my commander of Sliver Hivelord though. I am up to seven slivers in my 99 that my commander also protects and I am lighter on my other tribal buff creatures than some of these other builds. I do think its still good but my list has a little more robust nature from this sweeper than average. Still, the creature tutor options like Eladamri's Call getting a wrath is REALLY handy.
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Post by Elywood » 2 years ago

I'm surprised I haven't seen Artificial Evolution in any lists here so far - it's been really good to me when I need to change something quickly to get value (also the effect is permanent!)

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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

Elywood wrote:
2 years ago
I'm surprised I haven't seen Artificial Evolution in any lists here so far - it's been really good to me when I need to change something quickly to get value (also the effect is permanent!)
It has a lot of competition with Maskwood Nexus, Arcane Adaptation and Unnatural Selection.

I personally ran Unnatural Selection over instead of Artificial Evolution for a while because Unnatural Selection played better with Sliver Overlord, Peer Pressure and Endemic Plague. Unnatural Selection + Peer Pressure was such a blow out. Anyway, I cut Unnatural Selection for Maskwood Nexus which has undoubtedly been an upgrade.

My issue is I have a finite number of "do nothing" slots for cards that really don't impact the board immediately but provide huge synergy advantages. I'm already running Didgeridoo, Dragon Tempest, Maskwood Nexus, Cryptic Gateway, Kindred Discovery, Glimpse the Cosmos, and Liliana's Contract.

I have a hard time cutting action for Artificial Evolution or any of those cards.

That being said, Artificial Evolution can obviously be a huge blow out. I'd have been running it if I didn't have several cute synergies it specifically didn't work with. It's still in my maybe board too. Man, using that EOT on Liliana's Contract for a surprise win sounds hilarious.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
My issue is I have a finite number of "do nothing" slots for cards that really don't impact the board immediately but provide huge synergy advantages.
100% this. I went so far as to not run several of the cards you mentioned such as Maskwood Nexus, Didgeridoo, and Dragon Tempest because they largely don't do anything without follow up plays that I didn't feel comfortable needing to have. I feel like if you push a lot harder on card draw you can justify more blank slots but in a lot of cases the changelings themselves are already kind of blanks that require something to make them a pay off. Changelings are largely just bad limited creatures so adding a bunch of other cards that kind of don't do anything into the mix seems hard.

For me personally there is a question with any of these enablers which is "how big is the payoff", and "how fast do I get it." I often shy away from cards that you play out and then need a bunch of follow up plays or already have a good board for them to be good because I consider them somewhat of winmore. Something like Kindred Discovery for example does need follow up but you can tap out for it and then turn sideways with your creatures that turn to draw cards almost immediately. If someone has a naturalize they can blow you out but its the same turn payoff which I like. I really hate payoffs that need 1+ turns or a complex board to make them worthwhile generally speaking.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
My issue is I have a finite number of "do nothing" slots for cards that really don't impact the board immediately but provide huge synergy advantages.
100% this. I went so far as to not run several of the cards you mentioned such as Maskwood Nexus, Didgeridoo, and Dragon Tempest because they largely don't do anything without follow up plays that I didn't feel comfortable needing to have. I feel like if you push a lot harder on card draw you can justify more blank slots but in a lot of cases the changelings themselves are already kind of blanks that require something to make them a pay off. Changelings are largely just bad limited creatures so adding a bunch of other cards that kind of don't do anything into the mix seems hard.

For me personally there is a question with any of these enablers which is "how big is the payoff", and "how fast do I get it." I often shy away from cards that you play out and then need a bunch of follow up plays or already have a good board for them to be good because I consider them somewhat of winmore. Something like Kindred Discovery for example does need follow up but you can tap out for it and then turn sideways with your creatures that turn to draw cards almost immediately. If someone has a naturalize they can blow you out but its the same turn payoff which I like. I really hate payoffs that need 1+ turns or a complex board to make them worthwhile generally speaking.
Changelings being complete blanks was one of the first lessons I learned with this deck. That's why I don't run Drogskol Captain or Scion of Oona. No one wastes removal on Changelings (outside of a 10/10+ Taurean Mauler or Morophon, the Boundless), if your opponents are smart they use removal on your synergy pieces and then you're stuck with a bunch of 1/1s with no abilities.

I think the ceiling on do nothing cards can definitely be worth while. I find Maskwood Nexus and Dragon Tempest to be two of the best cards in my deck even though their floor is doing basically nothing.

@ISBPathfinder You should consider giving Scourge of Valkas a whirl. At least if you find Omnath, Locus of the Roil to be doing work.

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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
That's why I don't run Drogskol Captain or Scion of Oona.
Not sure if it should be put in the same category, but I find Unsettled Mariner doing a great job very often despite not having reduced cost from The Ur-Dragon . The 1 mana tax has payed off many, many times. But it does protect everything, including myself. Not just the changelings.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
That's why I don't run Drogskol Captain or Scion of Oona.
Not sure if it should be put in the same category, but I find Unsettled Mariner doing a great job very often despite not having reduced cost from The Ur-Dragon . The 1 mana tax has payed off many, many times. But it does protect everything, including myself. Not just the changelings.
Currently I'm running Avian Changeling and Mistwalker instead because they trigger Magda, Brazen Outlaw and Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator easier. It used to be for Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow and Higure, the Still Wind also, but I cut them. Maybe I should swap one of those for Unsettled Mariner because flying might not actually be nearly as helpful for me as it used to be. I'm thinking of trying to slot in Spawning Kraken though too. Hrmm.

I also really want to test Silumgar, the Drifting Death. My top end is pretty glutted up right now though. Annoying.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I think the ceiling on do nothing cards can definitely be worth while. I find Maskwood Nexus and Dragon Tempest to be two of the best cards in my deck even though their floor is doing basically nothing.

@ISBPathfinder You should consider giving Scourge of Valkas a whirl. At least if you find Omnath, Locus of the Roil to be doing work.
I am still not really convinced to be honest. Its true that Scourge of Valkas does the same ETB trigger for the most part as Omnath, Locus of the Roil but its a lot easier to manage a land drop behind a play than it is to play a changeling / dragon behind it. I need to test more but so far I have needed more draw on more than one occasion but my removal package has felt fairly good so far. I am running a bunch of sweepers though which help me on the removal front. I also don't run bounce or flicker effects in my list which you do that probably make it look and feel better than it would in my list. Likewise, I am actually not really convinced that Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves is going to pan out for more or less the same reasons I am concerned about Scourge / Tempest but I also don't really have any other lifegain left in the deck so for now he is still in but I am not really sure about these effects.

Hunter Sliver though...... that guy has done some absolute work for me. Having a large sliver as my commander probably helps on that front as well as giving the bad small changelings indestructible and provoke is a nice combo.

You guys probably have a touch more dragon interaction given your commander choice as well which probably pushes you towards some of this. I just view Scourge of Valkas and Dragon Tempest as somewhat of slow removal requiring a lot of follow up play to get much out of them. I would say that Scourge would need to be played and see at least one to two changelings behind him to really feel like he payed for himself to me over just playing something like Beast Within. On top of that you can't really play him on an empty board so you probably need 1-2 changeling / dragons to play him in the first place to make him reliably be removal. I agree that a lot of our lord effects do need setup I just don't like the idea of needing board presence, casting a payoff, then needing to cast more changelings to get my payoff. Dragon Tempest doesn't do anything on its own but being cheaper to cast it makes it easier to multi task but I would say that it needs more plays behind it to payoff since it lacks an ETB of its own.

Its always a question of how long it takes to get payoff. I am just not sure that I love how much complexity it can take to get the payoff with these guys. I see the potential if they go unanswered but I always sort of assume that someone is going to try to answer everything I play before my next turn. It doesn't always happen but if my payoff period for a card takes 2-3+ turns it causes me some concern. The payoff time for vanilla changelings is already kind of high, I really don't want it to be high for my payoffs.
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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I also really want to test Silumgar, the Drifting Death. My top end is pretty glutted up right now though. Annoying.
Always liked Silumgar. He is still part of my list and he is always relevant. I chose him as my "boardwipe" option (other options were Realm-Cloaked Giant, Tsabo's Decree and Endemic Plague). I never looked behind. Because it is a mass removal on a stick, tutorable with Magda or Pyre and very controlable. Hexproof helps too.
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