Xenagos, God of 2x Beatdown

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plushpenguin
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Post by plushpenguin » 3 years ago

Now that full spoiler is out, we can talk cards.

The main one for those of you don't own actual wheel is Wheel of Misfortune. This is very much close to actual wheel and wheel is good as a panic button in case you can't get a creature out for a draw effect. While it is worse at disruption (people who really want to keep their hands can just say 0), it is still very effective at the primary goal of a wheel which is to refill your hand. This one requires no deckbuilding considerations and does not require a board presence. I may not need two of these effects, but the first one is always welcome.

The second card is Jeska, Thrice Reborn. This essentially should be treated like a one-shot damage tripling effect like a berserk. This is three mana, but tripling the damage is also enough to one-shot with most anything. Worth consideration.

Third card is Jeska's Will. This is a card you definitely want to play only if you get both effects. However, if you can consistently get 5 R off of the first effect and still get the second effect, it is probably worth playing as you can likely play 2 or all 3 of the cards flipped off of this. Lands can be played off of it. I'm pretty saturated on card draw right now, but I'm always keeping an eye on this one. Not requiring a boardstate and generating mana is very good. Requiring a cast that turn and not being playable before Xenagod is less good.

The fourth card is Gilanra, Caller of Wirewood. This is a below-rate dork, however it grants the additional utility of getting an extra card or two over the course of a game. If you feel you need a little more draw, you can run this. However, keep in mind that is essentially a worse Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. And Selvala can win games with her mana.

The fifth card is Hans. Hans is... not amazing here. It's like a bad draw engine that can kill itself in exchange for a free creature if we flip something big. It isn't terrible by any stretch, but I feel the optimal lists with low curves can omit him. I do want to build him with his favorite Temur Sabretooth running away from Blightsteel Colossus though. Elder Gargaroth is a safer alternative that can kill players.

There are also two trap cards to discuss.

The first is actually Jeweled Lotus. Xenagod is a deck where rushing out the commander without a followup doesn't do anything. Mana Vault is better in this deck and we don't even run that for this very reason. We need to follow up our 5 with the ability to tap for six.

The second trap card is Port Razer. This requires you to hit someone to even do anything, and the more people with blockers, the less effective the extra extra combat feature will be. 5 mana is also a tough sell for something that doesn't innately have haste (when you want to use your trigger on a fatty).

Lastly, there is a uber-budget card.

In metas with no creatures, for people who need serious budget fodder, Crimson Fleet Commodore is actually not terrible. Even if someone is able to take the monarch away from you, swinging with a 10/7 trample is sure to get it back. And if they somehow can't get the monarch from you, all the better. If you T3 this, it will have likely drawn you 3 cards at the end of turn 6. Not bad for a common!

As for cards I am currently testing.. I'm actually testing Lotus Cobra. Sounds weird, right, but hear me out. I have all 8 fetchlands. I can play cobra on T2, play fetch on t3 and play Xenagod, and t4 if I have a land I can still play a 5-6 drop. A lot of my big creatures are now 5 drops, which means I don't need double fetch all that often anymore to make a hand work! Also, this allows any T1 sylvan/worldly with a fetchland to go T3 Xenagod by itself, which is a serious consideration. This is a very small compromise to increase my chances of T3 Xenagod.

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ManaTapper
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Post by ManaTapper » 3 years ago

It can be a trap Port Razer but if You can get it trample to do 4 combat faces may worth it... This can be done by cards as Kessig Wolf Run and Skarrg, the Rage Pits. Using the crop rotation to Ensure this. Besides, it can be like an ibex a good reason for xenagos to be turned on. If used with another creature on play you can dedícate all of that creature attacks to one opponent to take him out, while You take down the life of the secund and probably kill third one. Yes, it's a wiff if You don't give him trample. But then again malignus is a wiff too if it does not have trample.

For Jeska, Thrice Reborn i agree, but i must add that it can be a Bad invest if the creature gets removed in responde but again the payoff worths it. However, she can use the slot meant for domri. In previous post i said he doesn't cut it for me, but Even if she would be a one use of it's worth it and would count as a discount for Emrakul, the Promised End when in cementery.

As for Gilanra, Caller of Wirewood, don't think i could Open an slot for him...

About the wheel of misfortune 0 can't be picked but 1 can... Even picking 5 and getting 5 dmg for refuelling your hand it's worth it. Besides You can Say the number You need so Scourge of the Throne can do 2 battle phases,

yeska's will it's a yes yes yes... Give me 3 of those and i'll use them...

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Post by ManaTapper » 3 years ago

By the way, charging tuskodon had an opportunity to shine last weekend... After playing godo and it got removed... (He left the Embercleave) next turn i played tuskodon and attached embercleave to him... With a single swing he was attacking for 40 xD.... I really struck for 28 after a block with a 3/3 but it was enought to kill the opponent.

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Post by ManaTapper » 3 years ago

btw i stumbled upon this card today Veilstone Amulet. I didn't know it existed and according to rullings even creatures we cast to trigger it are protected since it enters until end of turn. And since we only need the creature to hit even if it gets removed for our next turn or to ensure the explosive card draw... as i see it that card makes all our creatures to have hexproof so VALUE all over the place.

this could take the place of heroic intervention. Besides its triggered and not activated so it does not trip with the Collector Ouphe

here the rullings over one judge on a forum on the web.
The "your creatures can't be targeted" effect modifies the targeting rules until end of turn, so that any creatures you control until EOT (regardless of when they came into play on your side) can't be targeted.

611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set wont change. (Note that this worksdifferently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesnt modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that werent affected when that continuous effect began. If a single continuous effect has parts that modify the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects and other parts that dont, the set of objects each part applies to is determined independently.

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Post by plushpenguin » 3 years ago

ManaTapper wrote:
3 years ago
btw i stumbled upon this card today Veilstone Amulet. I didn't know it existed and according to rullings even creatures we cast to trigger it are protected since it enters until end of turn. And since we only need the creature to hit even if it gets removed for our next turn or to ensure the explosive card draw... as i see it that card makes all our creatures to have hexproof so VALUE all over the place.

this could take the place of heroic intervention. Besides its triggered and not activated so it does not trip with the Collector Ouphe

here the rullings over one judge on a forum on the web.
The "your creatures can't be targeted" effect modifies the targeting rules until end of turn, so that any creatures you control until EOT (regardless of when they came into play on your side) can't be targeted.

611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set wont change. (Note that this worksdifferently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesnt modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that werent affected when that continuous effect began. If a single continuous effect has parts that modify the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects and other parts that dont, the set of objects each part applies to is determined independently.
I actually like this a lot. This is similar to a lot of cards I ran in the distant past, but significantly less awkward because it is asymmetrical and colorless. It ensures that our first hit will go through. I might look into getting one and finding a spot for it. This is very good setup for a t4 xen and is useful if you expect more spot removal than counterspells. Also, since I have a large number of cheap instants in my list, it is very easy to turn a random REB into a means of blanking spot removal as well as blowing up a blue permanent.

I'm also looking for a spot for Jeska's Will. I won't be putting in any more new cards into my list.

I'm thinking of cutting domri and harmonize. The former I didn't get to test, but that can be a temporary cut if needed. The latter is only going to be better if I play it pre-Xenagod, which will happen increasingly less often with the starts that I get these days.

If Domri simply proves too difficult to protect, it will probably get the axe. It does help that I'm testing replacement ramp option in cobra.

Wheel of misfortune is still on the table for me, although I treat it as an emergency button, and I don't feel I need two of those effects.

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Post by JsonMansions » 3 years ago

Loving the deck so far, and I've used it as a basis for my own Xenagos list. What are your thoughts regarding possible new additions from Kaldheim?

Tibalt's Trickery seems like it has the highest utility, but cards like Quakebringer to prevent lifegain strategies, Battle Mammoth for a little card advantage and the new Vorinclex to hose superfriends and counter strategies seems like they may be worthy of consideration.

I'd love to hear your input on these or other gems from the set which I may have overlooked.

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Post by SGAN » 3 years ago

Tibalt's Trickery looks excellent! I'm also really excited about In Search of Greatness. It's super cheap and at worst it's a scry 1. I think Plush has been moving away from 6 drop creatures but there are still a handful (in my deck especially). With Xenagos pretty much always being on the field and costing 5, you could cast a free 6 drop creature at your upkeep. And if that creature doesn't last the turn cycle, which it probably won't, you can do it again next upkeep!

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Post by Moonlighter » 3 years ago

I really like the design philosophy (slot a creature into the Xena-Gun as fast as possible and fire). Keeping the curve low and picking the most efficient creatures for it is solid. I have a couple of trash decks for lower powered tables (Etali and Atarka to take apart and fuse into this. I already ordered some of the cheaper pieces - I don't imagine I'll truly need some of the higher amounts of tutoring for the groups I play with, but I'll see. I might aim for a little more token ramp like From Beyond in order to take advantage of Thelonite Monk, which is a pet hate card of mine, and Magus of the Order for poor man's tutor, but we'll have to see if those meaningfully detract from tempo. I imagine they will, but I can't afford another set of super green tutors at the moment. I think I'll have to see how it feels off a few games.

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Post by Moonlighter » 3 years ago

Put the deck together, ended up not keeping either From Beyond or Thelonite Monk, as much as I like the idea - no space and not on theme.

Okay. I got two games in with this. Both 1v1. This deck does as advertised and is extremely fun to play. It's very linear, but it doesn't feel boring. I played against a fairly tuned Animar, Soul of Elements Big Beats deck both times. Not degenerate combo, but I think I could have done okay against that, because 1v1, unless they draw disruption, I'm going to hit hard. Game 1 I got Fyndhorn Elves, a turn 3 Territorial Hellkite, on Turn 4 I used Jeska's Will to Xen, tapped the Hellkite, gave it a bump with Xenagos, and drew off it (I don't remember which card I used). This got me Time of Need, which I turned into Godo, Bandit Warlord, and won by turn six.

The second game was a similar path - I had to mull down to 6, but kept Ilharg, the Raze-Boar. Got Xenagos out faster than curve, and got two turns in with Ilharg dropped God-Eternal Rhonas for big hurts.

It was so fun I went out and bought my LGS's last copy of Commander Collection Green and dropped most of it into this deck.
Xena-Gun
Approximate Total Cost:

You don't know always know what the Xena-gun will fire, but you know it's going to hurt. Looking for cheap suggestions re: the manabase. I deliberately left out Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, and Gruul Turf because I wanted to make sure my mana works quickly. I'd also like thoughts about the removal packages. I like to be pretty cheap, but Decimate has a place in my heart. Thoughts?

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Post by plushpenguin » 3 years ago

Sorry for the lack of updates. I haven't really gotten to play at all in a few months.

I like Decimate, although I don't have room for much more removal.

The only KLD update is adding Tibalt's Trickery and taking out Rending Volley. I'll take more versatile answers that can work on the stack, even if it has a downside. We're not blue after all.

Glad that people still enjoy the deck. I opted against Battle Mammoth because it just feels like a dumb beater that draws a single card when it gets shot. I'm still looking for powerful card draw fat that can draw me multiple permanent cards. Still have to wait for that to be printed.

I'm on Nature's Claim/ Force of Vigor. Free is the best kind of cheap. Might cut moons from my paper build. It will give me some slots to test other stuff.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

So... spoiler time, Urza's Saga is kind of a nutty land.

This essentially allows us to T3 Xenagod with no ramp assistance on a land slot. Here's what you can do when you play it T1
Part II is essentially meaningless text. If you really have nothing to do (you shouldn't), you can make a 1/1.
Part III allows you to get a sol ring or mana crypt. However, you can respond to the tutor trigger by tapping the land and floating a colorless. Since this is on your main phase, you can spend that mana to cast your commander and still be on 5 mana if you play a land the following turn.

If you have almost any kind of ramp in your hand, you can T4 a six-drop just like a sol ring start would. It still only effectively costed you one nonland card to do so.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

Okay, so I keep forgetting that Sylvan Safekeeper is a card. I'm adding that in. The spot I saved for veilstone testing is going out.

Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is going in to replace a forest. While it doesn't work with blood moons, making the colorless lands tap for green and saving fetches is worth the cost.

Cutting Inkmoth Nexus for Urza's Saga.

Cutting Momentous Fall for Survival of the Fittest. I'm at 25 creatures, a bit low, so still in testing.

Cutting Harmonize for Jeska's Will.

Cutting domri for Sanctum Weaver.
Cutting rending volley for Tibalt's Trickery
Cutting Blossoming Defense for Sylvan Safekeeper.

Changes apply to all versions.

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Post by SGAN » 2 years ago

plushpenguin wrote:
2 years ago
Okay, so I keep forgetting that Sylvan Safekeeper is a card. I'm adding that in. The spot I saved for veilstone testing is going out.

Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is going in to replace a forest. While it doesn't work with blood moons, making the colorless lands tap for green and saving fetches is worth the cost.

Cutting Inkmoth Nexus for Urza's Saga.

Cutting Momentous Fall for Survival of the Fittest. I'm at 25 creatures, a bit low, so still in testing.

Cutting Harmonize for Jeska's Will.

Cutting domri for Sanctum Weaver.
Cutting rending volley for Tibalt's Trickery
Cutting Blossoming Defense for Sylvan Safekeeper.

Changes apply to all versions.

I think Sylvan Safekeeper is a cool card, but do you think that, with it out on the board, your opponents (particularly those with poor board state who are wide open and expecting an attack) will just use their removal in response to the Xenagos trigger to cause the Xen trigger to fizzle if you activate the Safekeeper? Then you lose a land and deal half damage. Sure, you keep your creature but that seems like a pretty decent set back regardless.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

SGAN wrote:
2 years ago
plushpenguin wrote:
2 years ago
Okay, so I keep forgetting that Sylvan Safekeeper is a card. I'm adding that in. The spot I saved for veilstone testing is going out.

Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is going in to replace a forest. While it doesn't work with blood moons, making the colorless lands tap for green and saving fetches is worth the cost.

Cutting Inkmoth Nexus for Urza's Saga.

Cutting Momentous Fall for Survival of the Fittest. I'm at 25 creatures, a bit low, so still in testing.

Cutting Harmonize for Jeska's Will.

Cutting domri for Sanctum Weaver.
Cutting rending volley for Tibalt's Trickery
Cutting Blossoming Defense for Sylvan Safekeeper.

Changes apply to all versions.

I think Sylvan Safekeeper is a cool card, but do you think that, with it out on the board, your opponents (particularly those with poor board state who are wide open and expecting an attack) will just use their removal in response to the Xenagos trigger to cause the Xen trigger to fizzle if you activate the Safekeeper? Then you lose a land and deal half damage. Sure, you keep your creature but that seems like a pretty decent set back regardless.
They will, but losing a land is definitely preferable to being set back six mana by someone holding up one mana. They still need to deal with it as it will still often be lethal in 1-2 hits.

I'm also looking into ragavan and seeing if it makes any sense to test here.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

So, I got enough testing in recently that I actually have TOO much ramp now. I can reliably T3 Xenagos and I feel like I'm missing a tiny bit of fat. (this is after adding Ragavan and testing the changes)

Thankfully this upcoming set solved that problem. Old Gnawbone is absolutely ridiculous. Guess I'm cutting sanctum weaver (pretty good, but only ok in this deck) to adjust the ratios a bit.

I also got a Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. I'm pretty okay with cutting Mirri's Guile now because I have so much good ramp and so many good tutors that I don't need it anymore, even though I know it is pretty solid. Ragavan is pretty good, although for anyone who remotely has a budget, he isn't $80 good.

Lastly, Moraug is staying. I'm pretty confident in it. He's not the best standalone attacker (he still has mad potential against people with no blockers though) or damage amp but he does both (saving me card slots!), and when I'm swimming in mana and drawing tons of cards he does a good Seize the Day impression with a fetchland.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

We got somehow two more stompy cards that are good here.

Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient and Dragonborn Champion

Both are very good. I will be running the latter and not the former due to card draw on a body being more important than ventmaw #3, but they are both very good and the former should be considered for most lists.

There's also the d6 trample ward hydra but the issue with that card is that the times when it is big, the fact that it is big is not as important as the impact when it is small.

I'm cutting Rapacious One. Again, extremely good, and definitely very budget, but now I'm focusing on the deck's needs and I want more card draw on threats more than anything. However, I feel that this now does make a dedicated "going big by making extra mana and playing mass draw + extra combat" build viable. Not to mention that you have enough quality that tutors aren't as important to most builds anymore if you can't afford them.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

I ran a game where I intentionally played a 2v1 archenemy. Despite being strip mine locked starting turn 4, I was eventually able to get enough mana and draw to run out gnawbone, hit for 14, play an extra combat, hit for 28, draw five, and spend my 42 treasures to win the game immediately.

Yeah.... All mentioned changes above are permanent. I only wish I had room for Klauth too. Card looks absolutely nuts.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

Gnawbone wins the game on attack... every single time it connects

I'm cutting Savage Ventmaw for Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient. On paper, paying 6 mana to get 6 mana back is better than paying 7 mana to get 8 back. However, this calculation does not factor a very important attacker: Xenagod itself. When you play 7 drops, you will often have enough stuff to selectively activate Xenagos. When you add that 6 power to the 8 you get off attacking, you are now generating 14 mana on attack.

Generating 6 mana on attack sets you very ahead. However, generating 14 on attack outright wins games. Also, that is before factoring in any other attackers, of which can easily take that total to 20 or more.

As gnawbone and selvala has proven, almost every time you generate 14 colored mana, you are winning the game.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

Primer analysis updated to reflect all recent changes. Klauth is ridiculous. We are talking "Win the game on turn 5 vs any number of potential" opponents ridiculous without resorting to infinite combos.

I feel like I've accomplished my long-term goal of making one of the most powerful aggro decks in the format. Making aggro a viable strategy was not easy.

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Post by Rednad » 2 years ago

I really really like your take on Xenagos and am modifying my own list step by step to make it look like yours.

Just a small hint towards your primer on the first page: Sylvan Safekeeper is in your decklist but not mentioned in your single card analysis. For Sylvan Scrying it's the other way around: It is implemented in your analysis but not in the decklist.

Anyways: Really awesome primer and thread you got here. You've got a huge fan over in Germany :)
Permanent Commander Decks
Edgar Markov (based upon ISBPathfinder's primer)
Xenagos, God of Revels (based upon plushpenguin's primer)
Karador, Ghost Chieftain (based upon WizardMN's primer)
Emmara, Soul of the Accord
Nicol Bolas, the Ravager

Flex Commander Decks
Greven, Predator Captain (based upon darrenhabib's primer)
Malcolm & Breeches (10$ Storm Deck by Michael Celani)
Edric, Spymaster of Trest (soon to be cEDH powerlevel)
Araumi of the Dead Tide
Thassa, Deep-Dwelling
Phelddagrif

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

Thanks Rednad. I fixed it now.

So based on the desires of other discord viewers, I decided to make a tier list for Xenagod fatties as a way to take my opinions and knowledge and assess commonly played creatures.

https://tiermaker.com/list/mtg/xenagod- ... 79/1569154

The link to the tier list is here. However, I will be providing explanations for each tier below.

S tier - (the ridiculous stuff. Can win the game on attack or can evasively 1-2 shot opponents)

Godo, Bandit Warlord - With Embercleave, he does 48 damage over 2 attacks with evasion. The best one-shot in the deck and the go-to for making someone dead reliably very fast. Semi-resilient to removal (the other half is still a damage amp!). Without embercleave it is however a solid C-D tier card.

Old Gnawbone/Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient - Evasive 7 drops that win the game on attack when combined with power draw, which can often draw into effectively free extra combats. Only downside is when you have no drawpower/extra combats to pair it with. Value those draw spells, people!

Pathbreaker Ibex - Kind of meh by itself but goes lethal to entire tables with an extra combat or a variety of attackers. Is often the reason you play out more than 1 fatty at a time with Xenagod. Can make Xenagod easily perform 1-shot commander kills while active.

Scourge of the Throne - Evasive and does 33 damage by itself. Can also be used as an extra combat amp for other dangerous attackers like Pathbreaker Ibex. Only downside is needing to attack highest life for the extra combat. Usually you won't have the highest life, but it limits your freedom of who to attack.

Quartzwood Crasher - Effectively 2-shots (using the 12/12 token generated) on a 5-drop with evasion. Not going to win the game on attack like some of the others but just really really good.

A tier - Very good cards. Provides massive attack advantage or conditionally one-shots opponents.

Moraug, Fury of Akoum - With a land drop, it does 13+27 = 40 damage to an open player. With a fetchland, it kills 2 open players. Effectively a 7 drop when played in this manner. Very multifunctional, can act as a Seize the Day substitute with a fetchland. Being both threat and support piece in one card is very good, but fetchlands are recommended to get maximum value out of this.

Malignus - OG one-shot creature. Ridiculously high power stat for drawing an astronomically high quantity of cards. 5-drop. Ability to bypass damage prevention surprisingly relevant vs things like Constant Mists and Glacial Chasm. Only downside is being rather poor when everyone has chump blockers without a trample enabler.

Dragonborn Champion - Like Toski, Bearer of Secrets, but is effectively self-fueling! 4-drop that does decent damage and draws cards. Can really stack draw effects with active Xenagos and can draw 4+ cards from a Godo-Embercleave connection. Drawpower on big cheap creatures that attack is VERY good.

Savage Ventmaw - OG big mana fatty. Supplanted by gnawbone and klauth these days, but 6 mana on attack can still set you up for some really big turns. However, 6 mana is very different from 14 and often your opponents can get one turn to stop you unlike with the other two dragons.

Wilderness Elemental - Everyone plays nonbasic lands (even the monocolored players) and it isn't surprising to see it 1-2 shot people with trample on a 3 drop. Being a 3-drop is AMAZING.

Carnage Tyrant - Combination of hexproof + uncounterable on a 7 power 6 drop makes it a very safe play and a very reliable conduit for your draw effects or extra combats. However, it requires those to really be at its true potential. But if you do, you can kill players and often just see them flash their spot removal that they couldn't use on you as you hit for lethal.

Hellkite Tyrant - So many people play artifacts that this can give you a pretty neat disruptive effect or permanent mana boost. However, it does require a dedicated artifact player to be at its full potential, and you don't always get that.

Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion - TIER READJUSTMENT POSSIBLE - It is a 4 mana evasive creature that can both loot away cards and generate red mana to spend. However, the deck without power draw tends to empty its hand quickly, limiting the power of both the loot and the mana boost and why it isn't higher in A tier and could arguably be high B tier.

B tier - These aren't doing crazy things like A tier but are generally good choices. Sometimes situationally better than A tier stuff but with a less consistent performance.

Rapacious One - A good big mana creature. Can generate effectively endless colorless mana and chump blockers. However, the fact that it is colorless mana is a huge downside compared to the other options and limits the ceiling of the card. Unlike the other options where being on 6-7 mana is enough to chain spells that win you the game, you often want to be on around 8 or so, and this is why it isn't A tier.

Elder Gargaroth - REVISED- Moved down from high B tier to MID B tier - It's a 5 mana 6/6 with a lot of abilities that can draw cards unconditionally on attack, which is very good. Also the vigiliance+reach is surprisingly relevant to ensure that you don't get raced by multiple opponents sending all their guys at you, as you drawing a card as well as eating one of their dudes is a pretty good deterrent. However, it doesn't really have crazy damage or mana-generation attached to it.

Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - Taking six off of noncreatures is a huge chunk. You need to build around this to justify running it, but you can often get it to survive combats it otherwise wouldn't with the Xenagos buff. The downsides besides needing a deck somewhat built around it is the lack of evasion.

Phyrexian Hydra - This is another one-shot creature using infect instead of an absurd power stat. It is worse than Malignus not only for that but by becoming effectively neutured if ever blocked by anything larger than 2/2.

Etali, Primal Storm - This card offers a lot of free value and combos very well with your extra combat spells and your haste. However, random value is not the same as excessive value from your deck and your damage output is rather lacking. Still, you can never go wrong with multiple Etali triggers in a turn.

Kogla, the Titan Ape - This thing offers a lot of removal for the rate you get and hits reasonably hard. However, the lack of evasion is a serious downside.

Ilharg, the Raze-Boar - This card offers a lot of potential "free damage and/or value" off the sneak trigger on attack. The "death" trigger is also really good with Sylvan Library and it is a 5 drop with evasion. However, it's potential seriously depends on what other fatties you have in hand and is sometimes not the best idea for your mana curve to fill the deck to the brim with fatties.

Hydra Omnivore - This card exploits open players like no other. It can wipe tables if you combo it with an extra combat and does a lot of split damage overall. However, split damage (ie everyone taking 16) is not the same as straight-up removing a player and it would draw more unwanted attention than you already get, not to mention you NEED an open player or trample or else it feels kind of bad.

Terror of Mount Velus - This is an evasive 7 drop that 2-shots opponents. However, it also has the "pathbreaker ibex" effect of pairing well with an existing fatty on board. It just simply happens to not be efficient as ibex or moraug at that role, even though it is a better solo attacker. Also, 7 drop.

Managorger Hydra - When you curve into this, it is absolutely ridiculous and can grow to 2-shot players with minimal effort for just 3 mana. However, when you don't curve into it and draw it late, it feels absolutely awful.

Ghalta, Primal Hunger - This card be an absolutely absurd 2 mana 12/12 that effectively attacks for 24. However, it requires things to go right. It requires you to have a spare fatty that lives to untap and for Ghalta to not be your only attacker you draw into. Remember that Quartzwood Crasher is a card that effectively gives you a free Ghalta on hitting someone and only costs 5 mana for a 6/6 trample.

Balefire Dragon - This card will completely mess up someone's board. However, for a 7 drop its damage is rather low and sometimes it isn't simply necessary to wipe someone's board when you can simply take out of the player instead.

C tier - These are serviceable options that will generally do the job of attacking reasonably well. These often tend to be budget choices and should be replaced with higher tier options as you get access to more resources to improve the deck. It is the widest tier, as higher C tier tends to be significantly better than lower C tier.

Inferno Titan: Still pretty good. It kills blockers when it enters, and kills blockers when it attacks, granting it a form of pseudo-evasion. Also can double-up on its own firebreathing. However, it gets fairly minimal benefit from the Xenagos trigger besides the haste relative to other cards on this list.

Atarka, World Render: a 7-drop that has a nasty evasion form, can sometimes buff up other dragons, and hitting for 24 is generally pretty decent. However, it lacks effectively any utility (for a 7 drop!) and there have been better cards released for doing a lot of raw damage quickly.

Inferno of the Star Mounts - Haste is redundant, uncounterability is nice, and the 20 damage trigger isn't the hardest to pull off here. However, you need to feed it 5 red mana (not an easy feat) to effectively one-shot a player with evasion so is not practical to pull off unless you untap with it. Also, even optimized manabases can have a hard time feeding it 5 red at once.

Siege Behemoth:: It is worse than Carnage Tyrant. It can fill all of its roles, but keep in mind that attackers with little utility (other than being a better-than-average drawpower conduit) are increasingly getting outdated. After all, it may be worth the risk of getting your creature shot if it can 1-2 shot your opponents and potentially generate resource advantage rather than being forced to 3-shot someone with no extra combat help. Time is the most valuable resource, and Siege Behemoth (a 7-drop) is SLOW and requires a lot of it. At least the extra evasion is nice

Thunderfoot Baloth: It is a 7/7 trample which can buff up your other creatures. Problem is that your fatties are generally going solo outside of specific big creatures that benefit greatly from additional attackers (think illharg and ibex) and so the buff is limited in effectiveness.

Crimson Fleet Commodore: This is a rarely-seen budget choice that I like a lot for being low cmc and unconditional card draw. If someone takes the monarch after hitting you with one of these out, just him em back. I don't think they'll have the board presence that early to effectively block it!

Drakuseth, Maw of Flames - REVISED - Moved from MID C tier to HIGH C tier - It is like a budget balefire that has the advantage of hitting creatures from multiple different players. Sometimes though, 3 and 4 damage might not cut it against the threats you are up against. It's kind of like an inferno titan that is 7 cmc but hits more stuff.

Battle Mammoth- You can sometimes T3 it off a dork and will draw you a card on someone shooting it (or rarely, something else). However, just 1 card is not a lot and it offers little utility otherwise.

Realm Seekers - This can potentially be a Malignus with enough players that have enough cards and can self-provide its own trample enabler and land drops via the ability. However, its ability to one-shot open players... is not reliable, and it requires a large mana investment for a result that a Scourge of the Throne or Quartzwood Crasher could have provided with minimal investment.

Terror of the Peaks - Warstorm Surge is effectively unplayable, but one on a 5/4 flyer for 5isn't bad. Just keep in mind we aren't the absolute best deck for taking advantage of any of its features.

Giant Adephage: Obsoleted by Quartzwood Crasher but still ok as budget choice. Keep in mind that the tokens are copies and do they DO provide devotion unlike crasher tokens.

Rampaging Baloths: Getting free 4/4s on land drops is fine, but again, we aren't the best deck to take advantage of it.

Moldgraf Monstrosity: You get 2 free things as removal insurance, but it is random. Could be worse.

Putrefax: It's like the other one-shots, but much worse because you need to both add extra power AND it doesn't stay for the turn.

Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma: This is a hybrid ramp/attacker. However, it is kind of poor at both. Your "ramp" can't help with your noncreatures and your attacks are a pretty lousy 9 with this.

Soul of the Harvest: a meh statline with a card draw ability that won't trigger too often and doesn't scale well with what we do.

God-Eternal Rhonas - It acts as a damage amp... for 5 mana... where the body itself is unimpressive. I don't know why people run this, but I don't think it is D tier bad.

Dragonlord Atarka - It is removal on a big trampling body, but even the other options at C tier are better at the role.

Tyrant's Familiar - See above. Although it is repeatable, the haste is kind of wasted here. At least it wastes big things

Terra Stomper - The baseline for random fatties with no utility. If a big creature is worse than this, you should think of a replacement. A relic of 2014 times.

D tier - If it lands in this tier, (in my opinion) you should consider finding a replacement

Colossal Dreadmaw - The meme tier. It's strictly worse than terra stomper, but surprisingly, you could theoretically find worse than this that people use!

Deus of Calamity - Looks good in theory. But 12 damage is not a lot, 5 devotion makes it difficult to selectively control Xenagos state, and blowing up a land is just going to make the target angrier. Also works very poorly with colorless lands, which we need as very important utility.

Worldspine Wurm - The payoff is good, but where are you going to find 11 mana in a gamestate where you aren't about to win? Cheating it in is good, but you would need to have a card that could do it or else it is dead. Doesn't even 1-shot people.

Spellbreaker Behemoth - Uncounterability is nice, but there are cheaper options that grant it to a wider scope of cards. The vanilla 5/5 is kind of not great to use for attacking

Port Razer - This card needs so much to go right. First off, it doesn't have haste itself and so as a support piece it is overcosted at 5 mana. Secondly, you need to have open players to make this remotely useful as an attacker or a support piece, and it doesn't do a reliable amount of damage as an attacker. Just run a Moraug or a Combat Celebrant instead. Remember that just because a card has "extra combat" on it doesn't necessarily make it right for the deck, even if you can potentially get multiple.

Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - It is a 7/6 trample for 8! mana. Doubling mana is nice but unnecessary at that stage especially when requiring an untap unlike your other big mana options. Secondly, the inhibitive effect of your opponents will be an incentive for everyone to get rid of either it or you no matter how well or poorly you are doing. Remember, most people run cheap spot removal these days, so losing your 8 drop to a 1 mana spell that costed that player 1 mana on a future turn is much worse of a deal for you than them.

Hellkite Charger - Doesn't even go infinite with any creature outside of Gnawbone. 7 mana is too much for one extra combat, even repeatable, and without that (which is 90% of the time) it is incredibly mediocre as an attacker. You would be better off with a Shivan Dragon, and that isn't a great place to be..

Garruk's Horde - 7 mana for a 7/7 trampler is a mediocre rate, but the card advantage feature is unreliable and probably just worse than straight up drawing a card every time you hit a creature. Unlike drawing a card, if you don't use the feature you effectively lose your CA.

Blightsteel Colossus - You hit 12 mana often enough to play this thing? Also, in this deck, indestructible is generally worse than hexproof, so have fun losing it to 1 mana exile removal. At least it reliably one-shots.

Stonehoof Chieftain - Speaking of high cmc things that lose to 1 mana exile removal.... I really have to emphasize how crippling 8cmc here is without the biggest of payoffs.

Terastodon - Why not just play Bane of Progress, kill all the things, and not spend 8 mana to give your opponent 3/3s?

Grunn, the Lonely King - Has zero evasion and doesn't even 1-shot at 6 mana. Needs 9 mana to be a Malignus. Who wants to pay 9 mana for Malignus? Zero utility, has to attack alone and so doesn't even pair well with Ibex.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

I was wondering why you were so keen on the AFR mana production fat, and this write-up explains it fully. I was hoping I was missing something obvious I could transfer to Ghired, but I don't get to do the crazy draw+combat chains you talk about in there :P
 
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plushpenguin
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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

Nothing from Midnight Hunt. Unsurprising, although the AFR cards were very much a welcome surprise.

So, I'm going to briefly talk about how to make Gnawbone and Klauth more consistently win the game on attack. It requires a few deckbuilding considerations.

First off, generally Gnawbone is going to be better than Klauth unless you have seven devotion. Klauth's consistency comes from selectively activating Xenagod to help with the power requirement. However, he is also better if you need followup attacks and you can't spare a trigger to provide the haste.

Secondly, you need a LOT of draw effects. I would say around 10 is a good number. Not all of them need to scale with the creature's power, but those ones are the most powerful for the situation. These will chain into extra combats and more draw effects to effectively draw your deck. These two creatures are worse without these effects, but with them are game-winning.

Third, you need extra combats. You will need stuff like Seize the Day, but more importantly you actually need Moraug, Fury of Akoum and enough creature tutors to ensure that you can keep going. Once you draw half your deck, the extra combats are what will effectively enable sufficient mana generation, damage, and card draw to win the game. For this reason, it is ideal to avoid playing your land drop before going off like this as Moraug really helps with this consistency matter. Your land ramp and Crop Rotation can do in a pinch if you draw into it and needed to spend that land drop.

Tutors like Gamble, Finale of Devastation, and to a lesser extent, Fierce Empath and Time of Need are excellent for ensuring your chains continue. Worldly Tutor can also work, as well as any of the more expensive tutors in a pinch. Run as many of those as you can afford to run.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

So... I forgot Natural Order exists.. a kind discord buddy who is almost like my right hand disciple at this point was using to cheat out gnawbone all day. To be fair though, the card wasn't really worth running before AFR so excuse me for forgetting about this powerful card.

4 mana for gnawbone from the deck is ungodly powerful and much easier to protect so I'm adding that package. I'm cutting a land, adding Devoted Druid back in as an accelerant that sacs to Natural Order (and provides 2 mana at that for it!), replacing Selvala, Heart of the Wilds with a 1 drop dork (because selvala is pretty obsolete when getting Gnawbone is so easy, but keep it if you don't have literally every good green tutor in the entire game in your deck)

And I replace sylvan tutor with natural order. Sylvan tutor is definitely the weakest of my tutors. Sorcery vs. instant matters a LOT.

I goldfished it once... and I had a turn 4 table wipe hand because of it.. Yeah..... I was merely dreaming of getting turn 4 consistent player kills just a year ago... Now I am even capable of wiping tables on turn 4? Insane. Also because it is 4 mana, it is VERY easy to protect with 1 mana interaction. This is just whack.

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Post by Moonlighter » 2 years ago

Just bought a Natural Order and a Sneak Attack. Been waiting on SA for a while, but I have a larger group to play this weekend and I'm looking forward to it and decided to go big. I can say that Old Gnawbone is in fact a game winner. She's hit the table once, and I closed out that turn. Quartzwood Crasher continues to overperform also - that thing is a monster, and regular meta just doesn't pack enough removal. People are aware that I'm generally the biggest threat but they continuously forget that I do so on one turn. It will be problematic when they adjust, but I've already got some protection to hold onto that is often a dead draw for me (see above re: no removal). One thing I've done differently is add a few more early draw cards like Cathartic Reunion, which can hold me over until I buy some other draw pieces, but they're just that: holdovers. I'm also considering putting in Fervent Mastery, because with Noxious Revival (my pet card) it means that I will always have access to whatever I choose, if not always the same turn. Still loving the deck - thanks for helping me adjust my thinking about how to design a deck.
Playing EDH: Alesha Who Smiles at Death; Baba Lysaga, Night Witch; Emiel the Blessed; Breena, the Demagogue; Xenagos, God of Revels; Seton, Krosan Protector; Phelddagrif.

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